U.S. senators: are they as powerful as portrayed in the media?

[Heracles]

(Not sure if this belongs in GQ, please feel free to move it elsewhere.)

In movies and TV shows set in the United States, we are often shown a senator as some sort of important decision maker. See Stargate XG-1, the early X-Men movies, Eureka, etc. Secret agency directors and high-ranking military officials are shown taking orders from a senator. Character A asks Character B: "Do you really want Senator X to find out about this?", and so on.

I'm from Canada (where the Senate is a bunch of unelected, elderly people who ratify laws).

I'm aware that there are only 2 senators per state, etc., but they're still just elected officials who get to propose bills and vote on them. Oh, and act as a court once in a while. And I've heard of McCarthy.

The question: Is there any context where an individual senator (not acting on behalf of the Armed Services Committee) will end up giving orders to, or requiring reports from, an agency head or an officer in the military? Or is this just a mechanism used in fiction to avoid having to invoke the White House all the time?

(Let's assume the elected president and vice-president are alive and sane.)

[Lumpy]

No, there's that division of powers thing: the Senate (along with the House) enacts laws; the military and the rest of the Executive branch answer to the President. No way a senator gives anyone in the executive a direct order. That said, an influential senator who is chairman of an important commitee is someone who you pay attention to. Ultimately the legislature controls the purse strings and can kill any executive department by refusing to fund it. It's a matter of informal "clout" rather than direct authority.

[friedo]

Yeah. Senators can't give orders, but if the chairman of the committee that controls your budget, and who has the power to subpoena you and your staff for any reason, makes a strongly-worded suggestion about something, it's a good idea to pay attention.

[Elendil's Heir]

Yes, it's a matter of influence and clout, not actual chain-of-command legal authority. There's a powerful but crooked senator who's shown giving orders to non-Senate folks in Timecop. That kind of thing always bugged me.

[dracoi]

A lot of the formal power a senator has comes from their positions on various committees. Before a bill can be voted on by the general body, it has to get into and then through a committee. Since all bills on a particular subject would go through a particular committee, having an enemy on that committee could effectively block legislation. While there are plenty of ways to get around this, it's not always feasible.

[Si Amigo]

Most senators didn't get were the are by being nice team players; they play hardball politics and work to control vast amounts of budget in order to increase their political clout.

[The Second Stone]

A skilled Senator has a very good chance to be able to screw up anything that has to get passed through the Senate except war declarations, whole budgets and Supreme Court appointments, and somewhat on Cabinet level appointments. The Senate rules have way too many ways for one member to indefinitely delay all the little stuff.

[Keeve]

All these posts are about budgets and appropriations. What about the fictional politicians who threaten to send the IRS after citizens who don't cooperate? Is there anyone in the IRS who thinks that a senator - or even a bunch of senators - could shut them down as a group, or get them fired as an individual?

I'm not doubting it happens. I'm just wondering how it works. Or maybe I *am* doubting it happens. So much of Hollywood is made up that I don't know what to believe.

[shiftless]

If a senator wants something done, people jump because he has power in the general sense. In my government office, a request for something by a senator will get the executives hopping like fleas on a hot-plate, even though the senator doesn't have any direct power over our agency. That senator does have the power to make life miserable in informal ways even if he isn't in the chain of command. How do I know he won't mention to the President, next time he dines at the White House, what a crappy job I'm doing? It's not like I'll ever get invited to rebut over dinner.

If he approves budgets or is part of a hearing of some kind then he has a lot of power to make you miserable. Really, who do the "secret agency directors and high-ranking military officials" answer to if not a senator or rep. acting as an agent of the people?

[dracoi]

Originally Posted by Keeve

All these posts are about budgets and appropriations. What about the fictional politicians who threaten to send the IRS after citizens who don't cooperate? Is there anyone in the IRS who thinks that a senator - or even a bunch of senators - could shut them down as a group, or get them fired as an individual?

I'm not doubting it happens. I'm just wondering how it works. Or maybe I *am* doubting it happens. So much of Hollywood is made up that I don't know what to believe.

How about this example from current news? http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/art...harity-2039245

That's enough power to put the fear of senators in me...

[Keeve]

Originally Posted by dracoi

How about this example from current news? http://www.broadcastnewsroom.com/art...harity-2039245

That's enough power to put the fear of senators in me...

Not if I did nothing wrong!

[Senegoid]

Here's a site with some famous photos, showing one way that a powerful senator wields power.

The photos show Senator Lyndon Johnson (senator from 1949 to 1961) engaging in face-to-face acts of personal persuasion, the infamous "Johnson Treatment"

[Senegoid]

Originally Posted by Keeve

Not if I did nothing wrong!

Senator Joe McCarthy "investigated" a lot of people who didn't do anything wrong, and still managed to ruin a great many careers. Read up on Owen Lattimore, for example. From Wikipedia:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia on Owen Lattimore

In the early post-war period of McCarthyism and the Red Scare, American wartime China Hands were accused of being agents of the Soviet Union or under the influence of Marxism. In 1950, Senator Joseph McCarthy accused Lattimore in particular of being "the top Russian espionage agent in the United States."[1]

The accusations led to years of Congressional hearings that did not substantiate the charge that Lattimore had been one (and wartime intercepted Venona cables did not refer to him as one). The hearings documented Lattimore's sympathetic statements about Stalin and the Soviet Union, however. Although charges of perjury were dismissed, the controversy put an end to Lattimore's role as a consultant of the United States State Department and eventually to his career in American academic life.

[gunnergoz]

Here's how I used MY senator's power to MY advantage:

In my 20's I wanted to visit a Mexico with my then-girlfriend. We discovered that I would need proof of my citizenship, like a passport or immigration naturalization certificate. Unfortunately, my parents had lost my original naturalization certificate some years before. Lucky for me, they had kept a Xerox copy of it (itself not legal, but whatever) that had my immigration "A" Number on it.

Armed with that copy, I went to the local Federal office and asked for a duplicate copy of my naturalization certificate. They said "OK" and had me fill out the forms. When I turned the forms in, I asked, "How long will it take to get my new certificate?" The answer shocked me: "About a year." "Why?" I asked; "I need it to go on vacation in 2 months." "We're too busy to handle it any faster than that," was the abrupt answer I got.

So I wrote to my favorite state senator to complain about the crappy service and long wait at this local Federal office. A week after I mailed it, the Senator's office sent me a letter saying they were looking into the matter.

Three weeks later, I got a phone call from the same local Federal office I had the problem with: "When would you like to come in and get your new Naturalization certificate?" "Tomorrow?" I said. "Come on in at 10AM" they replied.

When I arrived at the office, I got a proper, professional but very cool reception. After they issued my my certificate, a supervisor came up and pointedly asked me, "Can you please call the Senator's office and tell him that there is no need for his Aide to come down here to inspect us." I replied "Sure thing" and got out of there.

It turned out that my Senator had threatened to start a Congressional investigation of how this office operated, if I did not receive my documents in a timely manner, he let the office know that they would be fair game. The office took the threat seriously and expedited my document request to keep the Senator out of their hair, and out of their office.

So Senators do have a big stick and some are not afraid to use it. This was 40 years ago and, if anything, Senators have even more juice now than they did then.

[Keeve]

Excellent points. Thank you, Senegoid and gunnergoz.

[gunnergoz]

Originally Posted by Senegoid

Here's a site with some famous photos, showing one way that a powerful senator wields power.

The photos show Senator Lyndon Johnson (senator from 1949 to 1961) engaging in face-to-face acts of personal persuasion, the infamous "Johnson Treatment"

Johnson was a real control/power freak, super competitive, but with a quick wit and a real sense of humor. Robert Dallek, who has written a two part biography of Johnson, gives us this story:

As Majority Leader, he was thrilled to be the first legislator in Washington with a car phone. When Everett Dirksen, Republican Minority Leader and a friendly rival, also acquired one, he telephoned Johnson's limo to say that he was calling from his new car phone. "Can you hold on a minute, Ev?" Johnson asked. "My other phone is ringing."

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by gunnergoz

Here's how I used MY senator's power to MY advantage:

...So I wrote to my favorite state senator to complain....

State or U.S. senator?

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by gunnergoz

Here's how I used MY senator's power to MY advantage:

Good example. A senator is very powerful in the beaurocracy. On top of investigations, they can put the kibosh on hiring and promoting the top level beaurocrats and budget increases. All through influence, and unwritten rules among the senators about retaining their power. Even in the highly partisan senate that we have now senators otherwise at loggerheads will back each other in a showdown between beaurocrats and senators. There are 100 senators, but there are over 4 times that many representives in the House. And a senator's term is longer, and there's less turnover in elections. You might take a chance at annoying a representative, he may only be around for a year or two more. But the senators tend more toward lifetime positions. Some representatives are in office for a long time also, and they probably have the same kind of influence that a senator does.

[Quintas]

Originally Posted by gunnergoz

\

In my 20's I wanted to visit a Mexico

So which one did you decide on?

[Snnipe 70E]

Originally Posted by gunnergoz

Here's how I used MY senator's power to MY advantage:

So I wrote to my favorite state senator to complain about the crappy service and long wait at this local Federal office. A week after I mailed it, the Senator's office sent me a letter saying they were looking into the matter.

Three weeks later, I got a phone call from the same local Federal office I had the problem with: "When would you like to come in and get your new Naturalization certificate?" "Tomorrow?" I said. "Come on in at 10AM" they replied.

When I arrived at the office, I got a proper, professional but very cool reception. After they issued my my certificate, a supervisor came up and pointedly asked me, "Can you please call the Senator's office and tell him that there is no need for his Aide to come down here to inspect us." I replied "Sure thing" and got out of there.

It turned out that my Senator had threatened to start a Congressional investigation of how this office operated, if I did not receive my documents in a timely manner, he let the office know that they would be fair game. The office took the threat seriously and expedited my document request to keep the Senator out of their hair, and out of their office.

So Senators do have a big stick and some are not afraid to use it. This was 40 years ago and, if anything, Senators have even more juice now than they did then.

That is how it works. My older brother worked for the EPA. One woman complained to the EPA that her neighbor was poisioning her by improperly using pestisides on his property. The EPA had to go out and inspecct and test the soil and every thing came back clean. They made a report back to the woman. she did not like their answer and complained to her Senator, they lhad to go back out and retest. Same results reported back to Senator. She complained to her Congresonal Rep. EPA explaind that they had already tested, the reps office ssaid well test again. Test came back clean. She then wrote to the White House, same results. She keep writting to different officess and each time they had to go out and retest each time. Some one in my brother's office did a little math, it was costing the EPA about $200,000 each year to do the testing on this womans property. I say each year because at the new year she would start by writting her Senator's office and then down the line, because this was a new complaint. After a few years everytime they went out to her property to test they sent a copy to every office on the womans list.

[Wizard One]

OK, REAL simple, since you didn't bother to LEARN about your own damned government:
Representatives are appointed by numbers in each state in the US.
Senators are appointed in pairs for each state.
It was a compromise between the lower population states and majority population states when we became a nation, as the minority colonies would NOT sign onto the constitution if THEY didn't get representation, the majority in terms of populace states refused to accept dominance by small states, so we have BOTH in congress.
BOTH houses had to have a majority to pass a bill to the president. Lacking a majority of either house meant and still means, said law never comes into being.
On a practical example, Alaska isn't very endowed with a large populace, hence its interests wouldn't be reflected in the House of Representatives. But, would be equal to ANY other state in the Senate.
There are many books written upon this subject. I humbly suggest the inquisitive seek those books, as quite a few are open source today.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Wizard One

OK, REAL simple, since you didn't bother to LEARN about your own damned government:

Moderator Note

Wizard One, this kind of snark is inappropriate here. No warning issued, but don't do this again.

Originally Posted by Wizard One

Representatives are appointed by numbers in each state in the US.
Senators are appointed in pairs for each state.
It was a compromise between the lower population states and majority population states when we became a nation, as the minority colonies would NOT sign onto the constitution if THEY didn't get representation, the majority in terms of populace states refused to accept dominance by small states, so we have BOTH in congress.
BOTH houses had to have a majority to pass a bill to the president. Lacking a majority of either house meant and still means, said law never comes into being.
On a practical example, Alaska isn't very endowed with a large populace, hence its interests wouldn't be reflected in the House of Representatives. But, would be equal to ANY other state in the Senate.
There are many books written upon this subject. I humbly suggest the inquisitive seek those books, as quite a few are open source today.

None of this is actually relevant to the OP. The historical background doesn't have much to do with how things work in practice. If you're going to be snarky, at least post something that relates to the question in hand.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[fumster]

I was having dinner with a program director from DARPA. He'd had a few drinks when he said "Congressmen think they're hot shit; they're nothing. Senators, they are who has the power".

[Iggy]

My brother was getting the royal runaround on his disability application. Seems Social Secuity thought that an AK amputation of the leg and metastatic terminal cancer weren't permanently disabling.

We contacted the office of Senator Fred Thompson and provided verification of the medical situation to his staff. They expressed their concern to the Social Secuity Administration and suddenly the claim denials were reversed.

[Northern Piper]

Originally Posted by Wizard One

OK, REAL simple, since you didn't bother to LEARN about your own damned government:

Note that the OP states he is from Canada and is asking for information about a government he does not live under.

[Jim's Son]

When I was in the military, one of my friends was a "prior service" member (i.e. he had served in another branch of the service). He claimed that he was not given the rate (rank is for officers) he was promised as inducement for enlisting. After a few months of getting nowhere, using the proper "chain of command" steps, he went to his U.S. Senator. Since he was from Ohio, that was John
Glenn...Marine Corp Korean War hero, first American in orbit... John Glenn. That got results. He didn't get quite what he was promised but enough to make happy.

In civilian life later, the company I worked for and others , kept trying to get New York state to install a traffic light at the intersection where we were located. New York replied it wasn't busy enough to justify a traffic light and people needing to turn left just just guess when trying to cross
a busy highway with two lanes and no center island, just a steel barrier. So we went to our Senator Pothole, Alphonse D'Amato. The Phonz, as he was known, sent us a letter a mere week before election day (he was up for reelection) saying he had gotten through to the proper people and a traffic light would be installed in six months. He won re elction and lo and behold, he came through on his word. A traffic light was installed six months later like he said.

So I believe Senators do have a lot of power.

[gunnergoz]

Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir

State or U.S. senator?

US Senator. A state senator would have no connection whatever with any Federal office, like the State Dept. office I had to go to.

[gunnergoz]

I learned about the power of US senators when I was very young. A US senator wrote a bill for me that allowed me to re-enter the US and receive my citizenship when I was only 7-8 years old. That was because my dad wrote to him and got his cooperation.
I was born in the Free Territory of Trieste, a city East of Venice, Italy. After World War II, the city was contested by both Italy and Yugoslavia. It was occupied by US and UK troops pending a plebiscite (popular vote) that would determine which country the city would join.
My mother was an Italian citizen who met and married an American GI who was in Trieste as part of TRUST (Trieste United States Troops).
In 1953, my parents and I left for the United States. About the same time, Trieste voted to become a part of Italy.
In 1954, my parents filed papers to have my mother and me become permanent US residents. My mother's application was accepted. Mine was not, because the US Immigration authorities determined that I was a "stateless person" since the place I was born in (The Free Territory of Trieste) no longer existed. Despite the desperate appeals of my parents, who were permitted to remain in the USA, at the age of 6 I was declared by the United States to be "Persona Non Grata" and ordered deported (by myself) to Italy, where I would doubtless be placed in an orphanage.
Needless to say, this was unacceptable to my parents. My father finally determined that a position was available for him at a US Army post in Italy, if he submitted to a voluntary reduction in rank from Sergeant First Class to Sergeant, a step backwards in his career. To preserve his family, he did so and the three of us returned to Italy.
My father's military career never recovered from this setback, however his subsequent efforts to enlist the assistance of US Senator Stuart Symington of Missouri did eventually result in the latter's passing a bill in the US Senate by which I was declared a "war orphan" and permitted to return to the US and reside there permanently on that basis. It is an irony of political necessity that I was neither born during the war, nor was I an orphan, but one cannot look a gift horse in the mouth, as they say.

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by gunnergoz

US Senator. A state senator would have no connection whatever with any Federal office, like the State Dept. office I had to go to.

That's what I thought, too, but you wrote "my favorite state senator."

[gunnergoz]

Originally Posted by Elendil's Heir

That's what I thought, too, but you wrote "my favorite state senator."

Yep, you are right, I probably should have written "my favorite senator from my state." In any event, it was the US senator of course.

[Ashley Pomeroy]

Originally Posted by gunnergoz

Robert Dallek, who has written a two part biography of Johnson...

Called "Exterminate! The Lyndon B Johnson Story". It's a myth that the classic version of Johnson couldn't use stairs - here's photographic proof that he could.

Sorry. I'm sure American readers are tired of jokes about Robert Dallek's name. I've never heard of him before. And, yes, logically it doesn't follow that Lyndon B Johnson himself would be a Dalek just because his biographer is. But you have to admit that Franklin D Roosevelt had a bit of Davros about him, what with the wheelchair and there the similarities cease.

Unless of course Robert Dallek was so brainwashed by Dalek propaganda that he could only view the life of Lyndon Johnson through their perverted prism. And you have to wonder why a Dalek sympathiser would write a biography of Johnson. To pervert his memory? As a source of funds?

"Their Perverted Prism" would be a superb name for a really moody early-80s quasi-goth New Wave band, along the lines of Bauhaus or Section 25, in my opinion.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by Jim's Son

rate (rank is for officers)

The distinction between "rate" and "rank" is made only by the U.S. Navy. Even then, failure to conform with the jargon of a particular organization doesn't make it wrong. U.S. Navy "rates" are basically ranks and there's no reason not to call them ranks.

[gunnergoz]

Originally Posted by Ashley Pomeroy

(snip)
Sorry. I'm sure American readers are tired of jokes about Robert Dallek's name. I've never heard of him before. And, yes, logically it doesn't follow that Lyndon B Johnson himself would be a Dalek just because his biographer is. But you have to admit that Franklin D Roosevelt had a bit of Davros about him, what with the wheelchair and there the similarities cease.
(snip)

Sorry friend, I have no clue as to what you are talking about. What's a "Dalek" and a "Davros?"

[Acsenray]

They're characters from Dr. Who.

[Northern Piper]

I still don't have a clue what Ashley Pomeroy is saying in post 31.

[friedo]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

I still don't have a clue what Ashley Pomeroy is saying in post 31.

He is making a series of extremely stupid jokes about Dr. Who because Robert Dallek's name looks kinda like Dalek.

There has not been a comedic failure of this scale since Sean Young appeared on Letterman.

[Namkcalb]

Originally Posted by gunnergoz

Sorry friend, I have no clue as to what you are talking about. What's a "Dalek" and a "Davros?"

Daleks are an evil race of pepperpot-shaped alien cyborgs created by the mad scientist Davros in the TV show Doctor Who.

[Northern Piper]

Originally Posted by friedo

He is making a series of extremely stupid jokes about Dr. Who because Robert Dallek's name looks kinda like Dalek.

There has not been a comedic failure of this scale since Sean Young appeared on Letterman.

At the risk of appearing extremely obtuse and comedically challenged, who's Sean Young?

[friedo]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

At the risk of appearing extremely obtuse and comedically challenged, who's Sean Young?

A crazy actress who appeared in such films as Blade Runner, Stripes, and Wall Street. After becoming well known as being a complete whack-a-doodle and ostracized from the movie business, she appeared on Letterman in an attempt to make light of her prior craziness, but just came off as even more crazy than before.

[Rysdad]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

At the risk of appearing extremely obtuse and comedically challenged, who's Sean Young?

Chani

[Northern Piper]

sadly, you're not helping me appear at all plugged into popular culture - who's Chani?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by friedo

A crazy actress who appeared in such films as Blade Runner, Stripes, and Wall Street. After becoming well known as being a complete whack-a-doodle and ostracized from the movie business, she appeared on Letterman in an attempt to make light of her prior craziness, but just came off as even more crazy than before.

By way of example, she made her own Catwoman costume and showed up during pre-production for Batman Returns to try to get Tim Burton to cast her.

ETA: Chani was the wife of sort-of-protagonist Paul Atreides in Frank Herbert's Dune novels. The image in the link is Sean Young as Chani in the 1984 film adaptation of the first novel.

[Northern Piper]

Thank you for indulging my ignorance. One of these days I may acquire a patina of popular culture.

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

Thank you for indulging my ignorance. One of these days I may acquire a patina of popular culture.

A quick consultation of Wikipedia might be useful.

[Northern Piper]

I've just come back from there, actually. Searching "Sean Young" on wiki eventually led me to a discussion of Scott Baio's politics. I apologise if I've derailed this thread.

[AK84]

Originally Posted by gunnergoz

I learned about the power of US senators when I was very young. A US senator wrote a bill for me that allowed me to re-enter the US and receive my citizenship when I was only 7-8 years old. That was because my dad wrote to him and got his cooperation.
I was born in the Free Territory of Trieste, a city East of Venice, Italy. After World War II, the city was contested by both Italy and Yugoslavia. It was occupied by US and UK troops pending a plebiscite (popular vote) that would determine which country the city would join.
My mother was an Italian citizen who met and married an American GI who was in Trieste as part of TRUST (Trieste United States Troops).
In 1953, my parents and I left for the United States. About the same time, Trieste voted to become a part of Italy.
In 1954, my parents filed papers to have my mother and me become permanent US residents. My mother's application was accepted. Mine was not, because the US Immigration authorities determined that I was a "stateless person" since the place I was born in (The Free Territory of Trieste) no longer existed. Despite the desperate appeals of my parents, who were permitted to remain in the USA, at the age of 6 I was declared by the United States to be "Persona Non Grata" and ordered deported (by myself) to Italy, where I would doubtless be placed in an orphanage.
Needless to say, this was unacceptable to my parents. My father finally determined that a position was available for him at a US Army post in Italy, if he submitted to a voluntary reduction in rank from Sergeant First Class to Sergeant, a step backwards in his career. To preserve his family, he did so and the three of us returned to Italy.
My father's military career never recovered from this setback, however his subsequent efforts to enlist the assistance of US Senator Stuart Symington of Missouri did eventually result in the latter's passing a bill in the US Senate by which I was declared a "war orphan" and permitted to return to the US and reside there permanently on that basis. It is an irony of political necessity that I was neither born during the war, nor was I an orphan, but one cannot look a gift horse in the mouth, as they say.

Well I must say that I am surprised that you could not get US citizenship through your dad. Furthermore, while I understand that the US Court are (from a common wealth POV) ridiculously deferential to the executive, the decision to send a six year old back while allowing the family seems a textbook case of capricious and irrational use of power. Would the courts not have been easier?

[Rysdad]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

sadly, you're not helping me appear at all plugged into popular culture - who's Chani?

She was in the movie. Dune, from the book by Frank Herbert.

[Rysdad]

I leave for five days and come back to make an entirely unnecessary reply. Sorry.

[Elendil's Heir]

Uh oh. It's catching.

[Koxinga]

She was also the model for the famous album art for Rio, by Duran Duran.