|
|
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
|
Water and the Wicked Witch of the West
I recently ran across this posting (http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...-the-west-melt) by "Dex," and felt I needed to express something that's been bothering me for a while. While Dex's answer is well written and makes a lot of sense, I feel like it, like every other wizard of Oz analysis I've ever read, is missing the obvious.
The casual google user can easily find out that L. Frank Baum was a noted member of the American Theosophical Society, which has roots in studying many different arcane religions, including the resurgent religion of Wicca, and indeed, there were members of the American Theosophical Society that had a hand in bringing Wicca over to the US and creating the Neo-Pagan, American Wicca movement. Having that background, it seems like a huge oversight not to look at the map of Oz and not see directional and elemental associations. In Standard American Wicca, East is Air and beginnings, South is Fire, youth and beauty, West is Water, change, and travel, and North is Earth, aging, and wisdom. The story starts in the East (beginnings, remember?) where the ruler of that kingdom was killed by a tornado (Air?). The Witch of the West was killed by water. I doubt very much that this is a comment on an economic drought. The Witches of the East and West were cruel. They subjected their people and were at odds with their own being. As "Dex" mentions, the Witch of the West had no blood, for it had all "dried up." They were trying to suppress a part of themselves, and they turned that part into the strongest weapon against them (their Kryptonite?). Take a look at the map of Oz. The Witch of the North is an old woman who meets Dorothy at the beginning and gives her advice. Glinda is a young, beautiful woman who wears red dresses made out of rubies. The Emerald City is, in fact colorless, the neutral center of all four elements. This seems so glaringly obvious that I'm having trouble figuring out why I can't find a similar analysis online somewhere? Where did all the moderately intelligent literary critics go? |
| Advertisements | |
|
|
|
|
#2
|
|||
|
|||
|
Emerald ... colorless ... glaringly obvious ... right...
![]()
|
|
#3
|
|||
|
|||
|
Not a bad thought. I'd have to go home and examine my Oz maps/books though.
|
|
#4
|
|||
|
|||
|
Have you read the book?
|
|
#5
|
|||
|
|||
|
IIRC, in the books the Emerald City is only green on the outside. Visitors are told they have to wear special glasses inside, so as not to be blinded. Dorothy notices that the glasses make everything look green. She takes them off and finds that inside, the Emerald city is really colorless.
If Baum was a theosophist, everything in the OP may have been what he intended.
__________________
Nothing is impossible if you can imagine it. That's the wonder of being a scientist! Prof Hubert Farnsworth, Futurama |
|
#6
|
|||
|
|||
|
Yeah, in the book, Emerald City is clear and everyone wears green shades to "protect their eyes" from the brilliance of the emeralds. Because the wizard is a humbug. But at least he's not a dictator like Ozma turns out.
|
|
#7
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
![]() SPOILER:
|
|
#8
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
#9
|
|||
|
|||
|
Wicca didn't really exist until the 1930s but if Baum was a theosophist, he might have been thinking of some similar neo-pagan thing.
|
|
#10
|
|||
|
|||
|
Here we go... From The Wonderful Wizard Of Oz:
Quote:
Last edited by Joey P; 06-18-2012 at 04:42 PM. |
|
#11
|
|||
|
|||
|
The green spectacles are still in use at the time of General Jinjur’s revolt, but are not mentioned afterwards. I have always supposed that, when the girls of Jinjur’s army burst past the Guardian, the secret was let out.
As regards the OP, I don’t believe it for a minute; dearly as I love Baum, he was never that organized in his entire life. The Annotated Wizard of Oz, however, does suggest a way in which the colors of the first book (Gillikin purple is not mentioned until the second volume) could be based on elementary color theory.
__________________
John W. Kennedy "The blind rulers of Logres Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue." -- Charles Williams. Taliessin through Logres: Prelude |
|
#12
|
||||
|
||||
|
Of course. It's essentially a Theosophist allegory.
And, while I don't want this at all to detract from your discovery, as you discovered it for yourself and therefore it's absolutely exciting and worthy of further contemplation, it has been noted before. At least once, by the Theosophical Society. Quote:
Quote:
http://www.reversespins.com/wizardofoz.html |
|
#13
|
|||
|
|||
|
Rebecca Loncraine, in The Real Wizard of OZ: The Life and Times of L. Frank Baum, makes an elaborate case that The Master Key, his next non-Oz book, was totally influenced by Theosophy. I recall that she introduced the subject after the Oz chapter, though. It's been a while and I was looking up The Master Key so I may be wrong on that.
|
|
#14
|
|||
|
|||
|
Thanks for all the info, guys! You're right, "colorless" may have been a bad choice of words. I don't remember anything that suggests that the Emerald City was actually "colorless"--it was simply not associated with any one particular color like the rest of the four regions. So in that sense it is "colorless" in terms of associations, but normal-colored in terms of the city itself.
Thank you mostly for the references. Not that I hate to make new discoveries or anything, but I really couldn't believe that no one had written this before and was genuinely looking for some sources. |
|
#15
|
|||
|
|||
|
You're right, the Emerald City isn't colorless...it's Malkuth! Y'know, Malkuth, home of Sandalphon, who often takes the shape of a wizard or a beautiful princess with a key which unlocks the rest of your path up the Tree of Life when you're ready to make that step!
It's Earth of Earth - all the colors, mixed together, that we see around us every day, if we'd only take off our falsifying lenses and see reality. |
|
#16
|
|||
|
|||
|
For the record this is pronounced mawl-HOOT. I've heard various people say 'mal KOOTH or mal KUTH' and it drives me nuts.
|
|
#17
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
1) I know little-to-nothing of Theosophy, but The Master Key is very much a "boy's adventure" novel--"Tom Swift and his Amazing Electrical Inventions" type thing. The hero accidentally summons up the spirit of electricity who's been waiting since the dawn of time for someone to finally do so (the fact that the kid did it by mistake plays in later) and since the kid doesn't know enough to command the spirit/elemental, the spirit will grant him...um...9(?) gifts of Modern Electrical Wonders--3 sets of 3 gifts given x days apart. Some of the gifts are obvious stuff--a sleep/stun gun, a force-field, a transport device (I don't remember if it was a teleporter or what), but some are super-lame with the electrical connection. "Electrical food pills--one per day energizes you with all you need" (the kid hates them claiming that he misses the lack of taste. Eventually the kid decides that he's not able to deal with all this stuff and that humans aren't ready for it and tells the spirit to go away (and take his gifts) until someone deliberately summons the spirit. The spirit is sad but goes. I dunno if this is theosophical (and...now that I type it out, yeah...it does have a mystic flavor). 2) Flaw in the OP's argument. The Witch of the East was emphatically not killed by the tornado (air), she was killed by the house falling on her (wood and gravity and earth.--It's no more air than saying a sword that's pounded between hammer and anvil is shaped by air because the hammer has to go through the air. ). 3) Between books two and three, Ozma took over and made the Emerald City legit--covering everything in real emeralds--the city wasn't made out of them, they were just strewn and mounted everywhere. As an aside, this well-and-truly pissed off the Nome King (in later books, but strangely not in book 3 where we first meet him). |
|
#18
|
|||
|
|||
|
I'm the guy who wrote the Staff Report. I'm travelling at the moment, and so don't have my references (or the Oz books) nearby, I'll try to get back to this in about ten days. I did a fair amount of research when I wrote that, but found nothing about Baum and Theosophy. At least, nothing that I recall or that seemed to come into play with the witches.
Last edited by C K Dexter Haven; 06-21-2012 at 11:08 AM. |
|
#19
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
http://www.theosophical.org/publicat...-magazine/1551 http://vigilantcitizen.com/moviesand...-wizard-of-oz/ Having suffered through way too many years of my daughter's Waldorf School (don't get me started), I cannot stand Theosophy and its turgid racist mysticism pastiche. If Baum adhered to the secretiveness of Rudolph Steiner, he consciously cloaked his beliefs in stories palatable to the general public. I liked the books though. |
|
#20
|
|||
|
|||
|
This discussion of Baum and Theosophy, to which I have absolutely nothing to add, is quite fascinating.
But I'm going to interject with a much more mundane (perhaps nitpicky) question about the column. Dex references "Margaret Hamilton, who played both Wicked Witches..." As I recall, we never saw anything of the Witch of the East other than her legs sticking out from under Dorothy's house. And ideed, Hamilton is credited on IMDb as "Miss Gulch / The Wicked Witch of the West" with no mention of the WWotE. So, are there any scenes with a living East Witch, or is this an error and she was actually played by a set of prop legs? |
|
#21
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
#22
|
|||
|
|||
|
Just watched the clip; she sees Miss Gulch on her bicycle, who transforms into a witch on a broom. It never occured to me that that's the Witch of the East. She appears to be dressed in lighter colors than Westy, so that's a clue, but I don't know if it's 100% clear which witch we're watching.
I guess if Margaret Hamilton said so, I believe her. Last edited by Wheelz; 06-21-2012 at 12:36 PM. |
|
#23
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
#24
|
|||
|
|||
|
Not clearly on my iPhone, but I do suppose that would clinch it.
|
|
#25
|
|||
|
|||
|
Here's the relevant clip. They look a little dowdy to be the sparkly shoes but it's not very clear.
|
|
#26
|
|||
|
|||
|
Here's the relevant paragraph from my notes about the Theosophy connection to the Master Key from Loncraine's book.
Quote:
|
|
#27
|
|||
|
|||
|
No, she was an avid cyclist so she didn't use toe clips.
|
|
#28
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
(1) It makes sense, that's the witch the house lands on, flying about around it; (2) She's black-and-white rather than color, but certainly seems to be wearing a less dark outfit than the WWotW; (3) The WWotW doesn't appear on scene until much later, when she comes in a burst of fire (rather than just landing her broomstick) -- if she had been hovering around the falling house, she would have been on the scene sooner. |
|
#29
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
1. Elmira turns into a witch, flying around the house. The house crashes. It makes sense it crashes on the witch that was flying around it. 2. The WWotW doesn't appear until later, in a puff of smoke. Why did it take so long for her to arrive, if she had been flying around in the storm, and why didn't she arrive on her broom? I have always assumed it was the WWofE that was flying around in the storm. "Here's a witch. *Boom* Here's a dead witch. Same witch." The clip isn't clear about the footwear, but it is in the black and white segment, so the shoe color wouldn't be very evident anyway. Besides, Dorothy didn't know about the ruby slippers yet, so why would she imagine a witch with ruby slippers? ;-) |
|
#30
|
|||
|
|||
|
I never read the first book. I saw The movie, and an ill-considered "sequel" in the 80s, Return to Oz (which has several story elements from Ozma of Oz and none from Land of Oz). Despite the latter movie's lack of particular pedigree, it had a scene where the Nome King died from eating a chicken egg (IIRC, he was just threatened with an egg in the book, since eggs are lethal to all nomes). The implied pattern is that things that are healthy and normal for good people (water, eggs) are harmful for the wicked.
|
|
#31
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
A sword pounded into being is being shaped by the hammer, not moved by the air. The house was being moved by the air/Air. ETA: Unless you think a knife is responsible for a stabbing, I suppose. But I blame the person moving the knife into another person's body for the stabbing. The knife is simply being moved by the stabber. Last edited by WhyNot; 06-22-2012 at 03:04 AM. |
|
#32
|
|||
|
|||
|
Thanks for the links, Ulfreida. Still, I'm on vacation, and I don't intend to do any looking into this until I'm home. Choice between playing with my two-anna-half year old granddaughter, or looking into theosophy... ::: Shrug ::: I don't even need to think about it.
![]() Anyhow, I will try to look into it end of next week. |
|
#33
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
![]() On camera, Dorothy and the Munchkins make it 100% clear that it's the WWotE. In Ding-Dong, The Witch is Dead, Dorothy and the Munchkins sing as follows: The wind began to switch - the house to pitch and suddenly the hinges started to unhitch. Just then the Witch - to satisfy an itch went flying on her broomstick, thumbing for a hitch. And oh, what happened then was rich. The house began to pitch. The kitchen took a slitch. It landed on the Wicked Witch in the middle of a ditch, Which was not a healthy situation for the Wicked Witch. Who began to twitch and was reduced to just a stitch of what was once the Wicked Witch. |
|
#34
|
|||
|
|||
|
On the contrary, it has a great deal from The Marvelous Land of Oz—Jack Pumpkinhead, the Gump, a character that is as much Mombi as Langwidere. It’s a pretty thorough mash-up, which I have always supposed to have been done as a way to get to the end of the third book with the situation intact to begin filming further sequels, but without introducing the potentially dangerous General Jinjur plot (and, perhaps, the sex change). Note that the Shirley Temple version also eliminated Jinjur. (The film would probably have done much better if it had not suffered from left-over-from-the-last-administration-itis.)
__________________
John W. Kennedy "The blind rulers of Logres Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue." -- Charles Williams. Taliessin through Logres: Prelude |
|
#35
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Am I alone in always assuming that Oz was a real place? |
|
#36
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Kansas was in black and white. I know which one I thought was real. |
|
#37
|
|||
|
|||
|
In the books, there is no question of it. The producers of the movie, unfortunately, seem to have mixed up The Wonderful Wizard of Oz with Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland.
__________________
John W. Kennedy "The blind rulers of Logres Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue." -- Charles Williams. Taliessin through Logres: Prelude |
|
#38
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
(Dorothy)According to the song, the WWotW was flying around the house in the tornado when the house landed on her. |
|
#39
|
|||
|
|||
|
How do you get that from the song, qazwart? I don't see it.
And Fenris takes exactly the same lines to mean it was the East witch earlier in the thread. Last edited by wevets; 06-26-2012 at 11:15 AM. |
|
#40
|
|||
|
|||
|
A lot of people find all sorts of things in the Wizard of Oz.
I remember reading a long time ago that the Wizard of Oz was a populist allegory. The road of yellow gold bricks being walked over by silver slippers somehow symbolized the Free Silver movement. (And "oz" is short for ounces which is how gold is weighed!) The Wicked Witch symbolized the Corporate East who terrorized the little people, and who could only be defeated by the pure values of the Midwest represented by Kansas native Dorothy. Another story is that the layout of Oz was similar to the layout of the colors in a book on curtains that Baum had when he was a traveling salesman in Chicago. Another source claims that Peekskill on the Hudson, where Baum grew up had a road paved with yellow bricks from Holland. Baum also once claimed that the name "Oz" came from the label on the front of filing draw in an office he worked at (O - Z). Baum's work is filled with all sorts of magical creatures and strange places. If you believe Oz is an allegory, it's easy to see in it almost anything you wish. There just isn't any evidence that Baum meant for Oz to be anything more than a fairytale. |
|
#41
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
The song lyrics do not mention if the witch is the East or West variety, but since the witch that had a house land on her was the East one, it is fairly clear the East witch is the witch riding around in the tornado. Quote:
In other words, the movie-makers didn't expect us to be scrutinizing this movie to this detail 100 years later. They just had a witch in the tornado, and had ruby slippers when they needed ruby slippers. |
|
#42
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
Last edited by Fenris; 06-26-2012 at 02:29 PM. |
|
#43
|
|||
|
|||
|
No, but it's opened up several other avenues of questioning, like, what, exactly, is a slitch, how can a kitchen take one, how does Dorothy know the witch was thumbing for a hitch, and why would someone with what seems like a perfectly serviceable mode of transportation be hitchhiking anyway?
Last edited by Inner Stickler; 06-26-2012 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Added a comma just cuz. |
|
#44
|
||||
|
||||
|
Quote:
In one of their lyrics, someone who's happy claims to feel that: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Last edited by Fenris; 06-26-2012 at 02:57 PM. |
|
#45
|
|||
|
|||
|
I don't recognize these "Ding Dong" lyrics... are they from the film?
Powers &8^] |
|
#46
|
|||
|
|||
|
There are words here and there that I’m not certain of, but, yes, they are essentially the words of the film.
__________________
John W. Kennedy "The blind rulers of Logres Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue." -- Charles Williams. Taliessin through Logres: Prelude |
|
#47
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
|
|
#48
|
|||
|
|||
|
Quote:
You can catch the lyrics in this Youtube video. The relevant words begin around the fifty second mark. Most of the Youtube clips start right after that point. |
|
#49
|
|||
|
|||
|
I'm wondering if people are being confused by post #44. As far as I know, those lyrics aren't part of Ding-Dong.
|
|
#50
|
|||
|
|||
|
No, those lyrics are from “Something sort of grandish” from Finian’s Rainbow, and from “The eagle and me” from Bloomer Girl. (The first song is sung by a leprechaun who is slowly turning mortal and finds it both terrifying and exciting—he’s just discovered girls—, and the second by a runaway slave tasting Northern freedom.) But they’re by the same lyricist (though not all by the same composer), E. Y. "Yip" Harburg, who was indeed devoted to the sport of Extreme Rhyming.
__________________
John W. Kennedy "The blind rulers of Logres Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue." -- Charles Williams. Taliessin through Logres: Prelude |
![]() |
| Bookmarks |
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
|
|