MAFIA: The Road to Canterbury - Game Thread

[storyteller0910]

Could-be-final vote count: 1:00PM EST

Visorslash - 8 votes - Mahaloth (136); Tengu (138), Babale (200); Visorslash (224); Suburban Plankton (228); Enderw24 (230); Texcat (238); MHaye (250)
NO LYNCH - 3 votes - texcat (122); Tengu (138); Hal Briston (155)
Tengu - 2 votes - fubbleskag (187); KellyCriterion (225)
Snickers - 2 votes - Stanislaus (226); MentalGuy (239)
Texcat - 1 vote - Mosier (192)
Enderw24 - 1 vote - Alka Seltzer (131)
Hal Briston - 1 vote - Snickers (207)
MHaye – 1 vote – sinjin (197)
Mosier – 1 vote – Inner Stickler (240)

With the current vote count, Visorslash will be lynched.

It is now after 1:00PM Eastern; Day could end at any random moment, but in any case before 5:00PM. Any votes cast (or powers submitted) subsequent to the appearance of the Dusk post will not count.

[Suburban Plankton]

Originally Posted by MHaye

Afternoon all.

I've just caught up with the thread, after falling behind to spend extra time with my fiancee before she went home (which was Tuesday).

I see that Visorslash is comfortably in the lead for votes. I still have suspicions about him based on his thinking of 15 Townies, which I haven't seen adequately explained, so I'm satisfied with his lynch.

Vote Visorslash

However, that is a weak reed. I'll dig around a bit for something stronger. Back soon (65 minutes to earliest lynch deadline).

There is certainly a case against Visorslash Today, but I'll admit it's not terribly strong. My decision to vote for him was made when he voted for himself, but at the time I expected I'd probably change it before the end of the Day. But his complete absence since then speaks to me louder than anything he actually said while he was here.

[MHaye]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

There is certainly a case against Visorslash Today, but I'll admit it's not terribly strong. My decision to vote for him was made when he voted for himself, but at the time I expected I'd probably change it before the end of the Day. But his complete absence since then speaks to me louder than anything he actually said while he was here.

I don't see his self-vote as something a Mafiate would be more likely to do than a Townie, so I don't suspect him on those grounds.

Also, if you don't think Visorslash is Mafia but are voting for him to get rid of an unhelpful Townie, I think you're making a mistake.

[gnarlycharlie]

looks like it's Visorslash. a runaway wagon is always troubling.

anyway, as much as i believe it likely majority of scum are experienced, i am open to the idea that they may have purposely chosen a new player. so,

Vote Snickers

i don't like his insistence that investigators shouldn't investigate early in the game. he implies that the investigators will be shooting blind and will likely be finding town. that isn't a bad thing. confirming a person as town is just as valuable as finding scum. also any issues about the veracity of investigations in N1 will plague results even later. the earlier the investigators use their powers, the more likely it is that they get a true result rather than near the endgame where a result is statistically more likely that it will be fooled by the Cloak. .

[Hal Briston]

Crap! Fricking work getting in the way of what's important! I haven't had time to really to really respond the way I wanted to (damn you, ProQuest, and your inability to maintain a simple news feed!), and now we're in "limbo time". Well, I'll get out there what I can for the moment, and catch back up later toDay/toNight and respond then.

I still think the no-lynch would be the best course on day one (and day one only), and I'm not about to let math that arrogantly assumes we know everything about the setup push me away from the idea. Maybe I'm being overly stubborn, but I feel that avoiding the exceptionally likely Day One mislynch would be the best move.

Speaking of mislynches, it unfortunately looks like Visorslash is going to swing. His flameout doesn't jibe with being scum to me (yes, I know, that's what they want us to think), so here's hoping that his wasn't an important role. I understand the reasoning -- there've been plenty of times I've thought "I'll put this person at 60% likely that they're town, and 100% likely that their hurting town anyway. Time for them to go." -- but I'm just not feeling it here.

Ok, conference call in two minutes -- more later.

[Kamino Neko]

Originally Posted by Hal Briston

I still think the no-lynch would be the best course on day one (and day one only), and I'm not about to let math that arrogantly assumes we know everything about the setup push me away from the idea. Maybe I'm being overly stubborn, but I feel that avoiding the exceptionally likely Day One mislynch would be the best move.

Eeyup.

'Lynch someone, anyone' is pretty much a guarantee of Scum success.

But, whatever. People are attached to their strategy no matter what the actual situation, and it's too late to try to talk them out of it, so I give up.

[Inner Stickler]

But whether we lynch someone today or not, if we mislynch the rest of the game, we get to LYLO on Day 6 either way. But the one way has given us 6 shots at lynching scum while the other only gives us 5. Why are you arguing against more opportunities to get scum?

[gnarlycharlie]

Originally Posted by Tengu

Eeyup.

'Lynch someone, anyone' is pretty much a guarantee of Scum success.

But, whatever. People are attached to their strategy no matter what the actual situation, and it's too late to try to talk them out of it, so I give up.

'Lynch someone, anyone' is not the same as 'I don't agree with a no-lynch.' no one including you has yet to explain why a avoiding a mislynch is worth giving scum a free kill. what do you think about starting games at Night? that's how a lot of games were some time ago in a number of boards. think it was fun for town?

[Kamino Neko]

Originally Posted by gnarlycharlie

no one including you has yet to explain why a avoiding a mislynch is worth giving scum a free kill.

The Scum aren't getting a free kill with a no lynch.

They are essentially getting a free kill with a blind lynch.

When a Townie dies, it doesn't matter one whit who killed them, that's a point toward Scum. Especially when the Scum can't kill at will, and they can only win when we mislynch enough Townies, as is the case here.

Blind lynches are the Scum's best friend, here.

[Suburban Plankton]

Originally Posted by MHaye

I don't see his self-vote as something a Mafiate would be more likely to do than a Townie, so I don't suspect him on those grounds.

Also, if you don't think Visorslash is Mafia but are voting for him to get rid of an unhelpful Townie, I think you're making a mistake.

I didn't say that I don't think Visorslash is Scum. What I said (or at least what I meant) was that his total silence since he became the lynch leader is more indicative to me of his guilt than the things he posted earlier.

In other words: His 'slip' was something that may or may not have indicated alignment...but his overall style made me lean toward him being Scum, and his self-vote tipped the scales far enough for me to vote for him at the time. But it was his silence during the latter part of the Day that 'sealed the deal' for me. I think it looks more like a Scum clamming up before he sticks his foot further down his throat than like a Townie giving up in frustration.

[gnarlycharlie]

Originally Posted by Tengu

The Scum aren't getting a free kill with a no lynch.

They are essentially getting a free kill with a blind lynch.

When a Townie dies, it doesn't matter one whit who killed them, that's a point toward Scum. Especially when the Scum can't kill at will, and they can only win when we mislynch enough Townies, as is the case here.

Blind lynches are the Scum's best friend, here.

so we should always no-lynch on D1? that's what you're saying. besides all lynches are blind unless your scum.

[MHaye]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

I didn't say that I don't think Visorslash is Scum. What I said (or at least what I meant) was that his total silence since he became the lynch leader is more indicative to me of his guilt than the things he posted earlier.

Sorry, I wasn't clear.

That "you" was meant generically, because I have seen some people saying that. I wanted to point out that I was not voting Visor for that reason.

I should note that you (SP, not the generic "you") have a point about Visor's silence being potentially Mafia-motivated. I know that I tend to clam up when I'm mafia under heavy suspicion to avoid giving away something about my teammates.

[Snickers]

But as scum, wouldn't you try to defend yourself with at least some sort of response? Twist some accusers words or make up your own accusation or point out an inconsistency or something? I guess I've never seen scum just clam up and say nothing. I've seen scum say something like "well, there's no way I'll convince anyone but I'm town and you'll all be sorry" in the face of an overwhelming vote count, but not say nothing at all. And it's awfully weird to me that it looks to me like he started his own wagon.

But, to quote Hal, that's probably just what they want me to think!

[MentalGuy]

Originally Posted by Snickers

MentalGuy, that's a seriously scummy post (and not just because it involves me). "I voted for Visorslash, but now I'm voting for Snickers. Well, no, maybe Visorslash, but totally Snickers. But I'd be OK with Visorslash anyway, guys." Really?

Besides just stating that it is scummy, then paraphrasing what I said to make it sound as indecisive as possible, could you explain why it is scummy.

The person I would most like to see lynched is you. But it is Day 1 and I am not sure of anything. I was okay with Visorslashes lynch before, but Texcat's point about what his silence might mean leaned me even more in that direction. That said, I still thought your misdirecting defense against Stanislaus' case was more scummy, so I voted you.

If I had needed to vote Visorslash to prevent a no-lynch, I would have had no problem doing that.

[MHaye]

We're coming up to 9:30pm, which means Dusk should fall soon (10pm at the latest, iirc).

Nothing I read turned up a pointer worth lynching on. Maybe Tomorrow.

[Snickers]

Originally Posted by MentalGuy

Besides just stating that it is scummy, then paraphrasing what I said to make it sound as indecisive as possible, could you explain why it is scummy.

The person I would most like to see lynched is you. But it is Day 1 and I am not sure of anything. I was okay with Visorslashes lynch before, but Texcat's point about what his silence might mean leaned me even more in that direction. That said, I still thought your misdirecting defense against Stanislaus' case was more scummy, so I voted you.

If I had needed to vote Visorslash to prevent a no-lynch, I would have had no problem doing that.

Because it's so wishy washy - it's not taking any kind of stance at all. It's barely making a case. Yes, it's Day1, and that sucks. But that's no reason to flip flop back and forth, all in one post. And your last line reads to me like you're seeking other players approval for your vote. I find that scummy.

You're kind of doing it again. You were OK with Visorslash's lynch before, and you leaned even more in that direction with more info. But you ended up voting for me, which is fine. Yet you'd switch your vote back to Visorslash to avoid a no-lynch. Which might also be fine, but you placed your vote when it's patently obvious that no-lynch isn't going to happen and when the wagon's already running away on Visorslash. It just looks to me like you're trying to avoid jumping on a wagon and playing both sides while you're at it. Apologies if you think this is mischaracterizing you; it's just how it came across.

[fubbleskag]

Originally Posted by Stanislaus

You've missed TexCat's (238) and Suburban Plankton's (228) votes for visorslash. (On preview - and Babale's (200).)

Originally Posted by Snickers

Stanislaus helpfully removed any time I quoted someone else in my response to them while making his case.

The forum software automatically removes nested quotes, I believe.

Originally Posted by Inner Stickler

Yep.

*whacks fubbleskag with a trout*

What is it with this "they're unhelpful so I want to kill them" kick people are on. Killing unhelpful players that you think are town is only making it harder on yourself!

That's not at all what I said, please re-read.

[storyteller0910]

So I'm not sure what happened: I thought I posted Dusk when I left work, back at 3:00, but apparently it didn't take. Thus, a semi-abbreviated version:

Dusk, Day One

The day was uneasy; no blood had yet been shed, but the signs and omens were portentous. Each of them felt eyes watching, from the sides of the road, from the insides of the carriages that rumbled alongside - and none of them believed those eyes to be kind. In the end, they seized upon one, a sinner to be sure, hoping his blood would placate whatever malevolent forces had seized upon them. Like all of them, he was a sinner indeed - and they were not, collectively, particularly inclined toward mercy.

But one among them felt he could be forgiven after all, and when they went to bed that night, none had died.

Visorslash, who was and is Town-aligned, has been pardoned and is NOT dead.

Night One begins here, and will end between 1:00PM and 5:00PM Eastern on Saturday. June 30. All Night actions received up until 1:00PM on Saturday will definitely be accepted; any Night actions submitted after this time will be accepted until the posting of the Dawn of Day Two.

Have fun!

[TexCat]

Argh. I thought this variable end of Day thing wouldn't be too bad, but after 7 hours of F5ing, I'm re-thinking.

[TexCat]

And, after 7 hours, I end up cross-posting with storyteller.

Good work by the pardoner!

[Visorslash]

I'll post a bit later today on what has pinged me.

@ the people who said I gave up

Assume makes an ass out of you and me. But really, just you at the moment.

[Mosier]

Originally Posted by TexCat

Good work by the pardoner!

I have a feeling the pardoner and Visorslash are one and the same.

Welcome back, Visor! Note that I never voted for you. Not that I exactly came to your defense or anything, but you know how it is.

[Hal Briston]

Very nicely done, Pardoner! And I'll leave it at that for tonight...Thirsty Thursday at the ballpark and mafia is not a wise mix.

[gnarlycharlie]

Originally Posted by Mosier

I have a feeling the pardoner and Visorslash are one and the same.

Welcome back, Visor! Note that I never voted for you. Not that I exactly came to your defense or anything, but you know how it is.

it would seem he was. very sly move on your part, Visorslash. now we have a voting record to work with.

And that is why we shouldn't choose a no-lynch.

[Stanislaus]

Well done!

And yes, you fooled me.

[Enderw24]

Well, on behalf of one person on the lynch mob, I guess my feelings can be summed up in one word:

Oops.

I have respect for the move you played, Visorslash. You didn't fully ping my scum radar but I just couldn't make sense of why you'd be acting the way you did. I seriously, honestly, never considered your role as pardoner as a means of explaining what was going on. Well done.



Note to everyone: I'm going out of town today for about 2-3 days so limited access to Dope and posting. Just FYI.

[Snickers]

Holy cats! Nicely played, nicely played indeed. I think there's good info to be had in that wagon of yours.

Most impressive. I can't stop grinning. That was cool.

[Hal Briston]

By the by, storyteller, check your profile. The links in there are for Evil Dead Mafia.

[Snickers]

Originally Posted by fubbleskag

The forum software automatically removes nested quotes, I believe.

Trying it out....so it does. I did not know that. Good to know. Stanislaus, apologies.

[Inner Stickler]

For a brief period of time, we had nested quotes and it was glorious. but as with so many other things, dopers couldn't handle it and screeched about the possibility of misattribution and so the power was taken away again. No, I'm not bitter.

[Stanislaus]

Originally Posted by Snickers

Trying it out....so it does. I did not know that. Good to know. Stanislaus, apologies.

Don't mention it. It's a fairly aggravating glitch in the board.

[Alka Seltzer]

I have limited time to play until Monday, but a few quick observations.

We can't be certain Visorslash is The Pardoner, although if he is town that seems very likely to me. Another player probably wouldn't have used the pardon on a player self-voting, and not certain to return to the game.

It's not clear to me whether The Pardoner's power is affected by The Cloak of Lies. For Visorslash to be scum, they would have to use both the cloak and The Momento (they almost certainly wouldn't risk wasting the cloak on a player unless they had control of the pardon).

I find it very unlikely that fubbleskag and Suburban Plankton are scumbuddies. Both made similar cases against me, then backed off when I responded. I'd already addressed the main point Suburban Plankton made against me when responding to fubbleskag, but SP obviously missed that. Scum-buddies normally pay attention to what the others are doing. If one does flip scum at some point, that would be a pretty strong indication to me that the other is town.

[Enderw24]

Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer

It's not clear to me whether The Pardoner's power is affected by The Cloak of Lies. For Visorslash to be scum.

The Pardoner's power is irrelevant with regards to the Cloak. But we know Visorslash is town because Storyteller said so.

Rule #4:

4. All public reveals by the moderator are 100% accurate in all cases.

[MHaye]

Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer

It's not clear to me whether The Pardoner's power is affected by The Cloak of Lies.

It's not relevant, as the Cloak (if chosen) has not yet been used - at least, I don't think it can be used in N0, and N1 actions have not yet taken place.

[Suburban Plankton]

I think it's a good bet that Visorslash is indeed the Pardoner, and he used his ability on himself. And in doing so, gives us a confirmed Townie. As has been mentioned, the Cloak of Lies doesn't come into play in ant case, as it was Mod reveal that told us he's Town, and that is infallible.

I'm not sure at this point if Visorslash should make a claim or not. It seems quite likely that he's the Pardoner, which would mean he is Vanilla from this point on. If that is the case, then I don't think there's any harm in revealing it...but if that's not the case (and someone else Pardoned him), then I'm thinking we wouldn't want the Scum to know that...so I guess it's best if Visorslash remain silent at this point.

Right?

[Alka Seltzer]

Looking at the rules again, Enderw24 and MHaye are both right, Visorslash is confirmed town.

Agree with Suburban Plankton that there is no point in Visorslash claiming at this point.

[Hal Briston]

Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer

Agree with Suburban Plankton that there is no point in Visorslash claiming at this point.

Well, there is one possible benefit to a claim if he's The Pardoner:

If The Canon chose The Restorative, then I'd say The Pardoner's power would be a very good choice for a second go-'round.

[Suburban Plankton]

For the record, I'm still not thrilled with the way Visorslash played Day 1. Assuming he is the Pardoner, then I can understand the strategy: play in such a way as to draw suspicion, guarantee that he will be the lynch candidate, and then save himself, resulting in a no-lynch situation while at the same time making sure we have a good voting record to analyze later.

It makes good sense, but at the same time I can't help thinking it was 'wrong'...but I suspect that's just my personal bias showing, in a "that's not the way I would have played it" fashion...

[sinjin]

Sorry I missed the end of the day. We got our barn door hardware on Wednesday and 50 boxes from Ikea on Thursday and the singuy has been making me work like a rented mule* trying to put all this stuff together and get the damn boxes out of the living room. When I read the thread last night, before I got to stories reveal these votes really stood out.

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

Yes, we do need a lynch. We also have 28+ hours left in the Day. I don't think we're at the "Oh noez, we have to lynch somebody!...OK, I'll sacrifice myself for the good of the team" stage quite yet.

Vote Visorslash

For trying to drum up sympathy by playing the martyr.
Also for pointing out on multiple occasions how he's 'acting Scummy'; perhaps that's because he's Scum.
And as a policy vote: because he voted himself.

All of these reasons suck. When have scum ever admitted "acting scummy" that's just stupid. He made a slip (on purpose????) at the beginning of the game and when called on it he admitted that might seem scummy. A policy vote???? What's that supposed to mean? As for trying to drum up sympathy, I've seen multiply people do that, particularly falsely accused town.

Originally Posted by TexCat

I still prefer a no-lynch Today, but it looks like we are going to lynch someone. As I said earlier my suspicions lie with Visorslash. His voting for himself almost seems like a admission of his slip to me, and I'm guessing that he disappeared so has not to inadvertently give anything about his teammates away.

Vote: Visorslash

Why bother changing your vote at this point in time if you really wanted a no lynch? He was already in well in the lead for the lynch. And your reasons are equally spurious. You have never seen frustrated townies vote for themselves and disappear?

Originally Posted by MHaye

Afternoon all.

I've just caught up with the thread, after falling behind to spend extra time with my fiancee before she went home (which was Tuesday).

I see that Visorslash is comfortably in the lead for votes. I still have suspicions about him based on his thinking of 15 Townies, which I haven't seen adequately explained, so I'm satisfied with his lynch.

Vote Visorslash

However, that is a weak reed. I'll dig around a bit for something stronger. Back soon (65 minutes to earliest lynch deadline).

This is the worst vote of all coming from MHaye. It is sooooo un-MHaye-like. He normally comes in at the tail end of the Day with an extensive analysis and a carefully explained vote. This just seems like an "Oh my God I need a voted down before the end of the day....ooooo shiny there's Viorslash."

[sinjin]

NETA:

* The singuy is working himself 4 times as hard as me

[Kamino Neko]

Originally Posted by Enderw24

I have respect for the move you played, Visorslash. You didn't fully ping my scum radar but I just couldn't make sense of why you'd be acting the way you did. I seriously, honestly, never considered your role as pardoner as a means of explaining what was going on. Well done.

Ditto.

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

Assuming he is the Pardoner, then I can understand the strategy: play in such a way as to draw suspicion, guarantee that he will be the lynch candidate, and then save himself, resulting in a no-lynch situation while at the same time making sure we have a good voting record to analyze later.

Yeah, it was a clever move, gave us the best of both worlds - keeps the numerical advantage the no-lynch side wanted, while still getting the info the pro-lynch side wanted. No matter how you weight those two advantages, you have to admit this way is better than either of the others. Gotta give him props for that.

[Suburban Plankton]

Originally Posted by sinjin

Sorry I missed the end of the day. We got our barn door hardware on Wednesday and 50 boxes from Ikea on Thursday and the singuy has been making me work like a rented mule* trying to put all this stuff together and get the damn boxes out of the living room. When I read the thread last night, before I got to stories reveal these votes really stood out.



All of these reasons suck. When have scum ever admitted "acting scummy" that's just stupid. He made a slip (on purpose????) at the beginning of the game and when called on it he admitted that might seem scummy. A policy vote???? What's that supposed to mean? As for trying to drum up sympathy, I've seen multiply people do that, particularly falsely accused town.




Why bother changing your vote at this point in time if you really wanted a no lynch? He was already in well in the lead for the lynch. And your reasons are equally spurious. You have never seen frustrated townies vote for themselves and disappear?



This is the worst vote of all coming from MHaye. It is sooooo un-MHaye-like. He normally comes in at the tail end of the Day with an extensive analysis and a carefully explained vote. This just seems like an "Oh my God I need a voted down before the end of the day....ooooo shiny there's Viorslash."

There's a saying: "Hindsight is 20/20". Your logic may be unassailable here (or not, but for sake of argument let's just assume that it is)...but your words would carry a lot more weight if you had posted them before Visorslash was Mod-confirmed.

I'm not necessarily saying you've done anything wrong by saying them now, but it's real easy to find faults in others' logic once you know for a fact that they were wrong.

[sinjin]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

There's a saying: "Hindsight is 20/20". Your logic may be unassailable here (or not, but for sake of argument let's just assume that it is)...but your words would carry a lot more weight if you had posted them before Visorslash was Mod-confirmed.

I'm not necessarily saying you've done anything wrong by saying them now, but it's real easy to find faults in others' logic once you know for a fact that they were wrong.

You don't have to believe me but I read the final posts before reading the outcome of end of day and these three votes jumped out at me as I was reading. I guess by your reckoning I shouldn't be able to post anything at all about anyone's votes because I missed the end of the day.

[TexCat]

Originally Posted by sinjin

Why bother changing your vote at this point in time if you really wanted a no lynch? He was already in well in the lead for the lynch. And your reasons are equally spurious. You have never seen frustrated townies vote for themselves and disappear?

And did you even bother to look back at where I had earlier (conveniently linked) said that I thought Visorslash was scum? His disappearing was just one additional reason for my vote.

And I did not change my no-lynch vote, I added a vote for Visor. I thought it important to get on record who I thought was the scummiest, even if I still thought no-lynch was town's best option for the Day.

[Stanislaus]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

I'm not necessarily saying you've done anything wrong by saying them now, but it's real easy to find faults in others' logic once you know for a fact that they were wrong.

Yes, that's how we play the game. We get more information, and revisit what people said in light of it.

Even if sinjin weren't saying it was an "unspoiled" reaction, this would be a very odd, highly defensive complaint to make.

[sinjin]

Originally Posted by TexCat

And did you even bother to look back at where I had earlier (conveniently linked) said that I thought Visorslash was scum? His disappearing was just one additional reason for my vote.

And I did not change my no-lynch vote, I added a vote for Visor. I thought it important to get on record who I thought was the scummiest, even if I still thought no-lynch was town's best option for the Day.

And this is why I hate multiple votes. It just muddies up the vote record.

[gnarlycharlie]

can the three investigators (pun not intended) look into the ones who voted for Visorslash? there has to be scum there.

[Alka Seltzer]

Originally Posted by gnarlycharlie

can the three investigators (pun not intended) look into the ones who voted for Visorslash? there has to be scum there.

Directing the investigators while the cloak could be in play is probably not a good idea.

[gnarlycharlie]

Originally Posted by Alka Seltzer

Directing the investigators while the cloak could be in play is probably not a good idea.

we may never know a good time to use it. *shrugs*

[TexCat]

Originally Posted by gnarlycharlie

we may never know a good time to use it. *shrugs*

Huh? gnarly, do you have an explanation for this? Because it looks to me like you are talking about a good time to use the cloak.