If You Could Change Any Historcial Event, What Would You Change?

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Similar to "Which historical figure would you kill" thread.

The only real rules are:
-No changing religious events (ie say preventing the Crucifixion for example)
-Be serious (ie no "John Doe eats Cheerie-Os instead of Corn Flakes on the morning of June 1st 2005)

-The Union decisively wins the Battle of Chancellorsville, ending the Civil War two years early (while the Emancipation Proclamation still takes place)
-The British and the French launch an offensive against Germany while most of the Wehrmacht is in Poland is in 1939
-Richard Nixon is elected President of the United States in 1960

[garygnu]

It may sound trivial, but I'd prevent the destruction of the Maya Codices by Diego de Landa and his cohorts. So much knowledge was lost.

I suppose preventing the Spanish conquest of Mesoamerican and Andean civilizations would be better. What constitutes an "event?"

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

Originally Posted by garygnu

It may sound trivial, but I'd prevent the destruction of the Maya Codices by Diego de Landa and his cohorts. So much knowledge was lost.

I suppose preventing the Spanish conquest of Mesoamerican and Andean civilizations would be better. What constitutes an "event?"

Try to be somewhat specific and use an actual major event that could have changed (ie for your example say Hernan Cortez dies in the retreat from Tenochitlan for example). Incidentally, its not as if the Aztecs were nice people either...

[FriarTed]

Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi

Similar to "Which historical figure would you kill" thread.

The only real rules are:
-No changing religious events (ie say preventing the Crucifixion for example)

Does "Having the Council of Nicea allow Christians freedom to keep Kosher, Sabbath & the Hebrew Festivals rather than banning such things, even to believers of Jewish heritage" count?

[etv78]

Booth doesn't schmooze his way into Lincoln's box.

[Feyrat]

I'd change the wave of invasions from Europe to the American that brought the diseases that decimated the native population and made them so underpopulated when the invasion arrived. So I suppose my change would be to give resistance to the native American populations.

[Little Nemo]

Prevent Lenin from reaching Russia in 1917.

[Rachellelogram]

FDR doesn't get polio.

[Trinopus]

I just read Arthur C. Clarke's "The Fountains of Paradise," and he argues that if the Battle of Tours hadn't turned Islam away from Europe, civilization, and science in particular, might be hundreds of years ahead of where they are in our reality.

I thought about trying to nudge history so that the Nazis never take power. I don't know, though; I'm afraid of unintended consequences. It's possible (maybe unlikely, but possible) that things would turn out worse. Maybe a full-scale nuclear exchange or something comparably unpleasant.

How about the Romans don't get clobbered by the Germans at Teutoburgerwald? Or Crassus doesn't get sliced up by the Parthians. I'd kinda like to see a world where the Roman Empire lasted a couple centuries longer.

A negotiated peace between George Washington and George III could be pleasant; Harry Turtledove and Richard Dreyfuss presented a nice version of this in their alternate history novel "The Two Georges."

[clairobscur]

I would be warry of changing anything. Let's assume that you classically prevent WWII. Maybe you'll get instead a global nuclear war during the 60s.


ETA : beaten to it by Trinopus with the exact same example.

[supery00n]

I would have U.S. Grant invade and conquer Canada in 1870.

[AK84]

Howe destroys Washington at Long Island. In todays British North America we have a fringe political group called the Tea Party calling for the removal of the Law Lords who upheld the colonial legislatures health care act.

[AK84]

Alexander the sort of okay gets his head cleaved in during the Battle of Garnicus. That would have far reaching consequences for todays world.
The British Army is trapped and surrenders at Dunkirk. It will probably lose the war (for the time being) but save Britain from a ruinous year that was 1940/41. There is no battle of Britain and no N African campaign and as she has done so many times earlier the British bide their time and enter when the Germans are over extended, I think Greece in 1941 has the potential to be the Peninsula War of WW2 drawing in Germans into a long and fruitless campaign.

[Nava]

Blanca I of Navarre survives her second husband and their son Charles IV succeeds her peacefully; meanwhile, their daughter Blanca manages to get her husband, Henry II of Castille, in bed long enough to produce an heir. No Isabella and Ferdinand... doesn't necessarily mean things would have been nicer, but they sure would have been different!

[HMS Irruncible]

Not that I really feel like the world would be a better place, but what would North America look like if the Indians had been paranoid enough to kill all the Pilgrims at the first Thanksgiving?

What would John Lennon be doing right now if he'd just got winged instead of being shot through the abdominal aorta?

Also, no burning of the Library of Alexandria. I want all that stuff back.

[Alpha Twit]

I'd just drop a word to America's founding fathers that maybe a bit of clarity on that second amendment wouldn't hurt. Is it just so we're armed for militia duty or can we have guns for any reason we like or no reason at all? I'm not that picky about what answer they give but lets make it crystal clear please.

[Tamerlane]

Originally Posted by Trinopus

I just read Arthur C. Clarke's "The Fountains of Paradise," and he argues that if the Battle of Tours hadn't turned Islam away from Europe, civilization, and science in particular, might be hundreds of years ahead of where they are in our reality.

I suspect it would makes absolutely zero difference. But then I'm a notorious skeptic about the impact of Tours.

How about the Romans don't get clobbered by the Germans at Teutoburgerwald?

That would be interesting. I'm not sure of the impact, but it might be quite significant in butterfly-wing sort of way. Similar to William of Normandy losing at Hastings.

Or Crassus doesn't get sliced up by the Parthians.

Probably not a lot of impact. Crassus was up against a small regional force, which magnifies the level of humiliation of defeat, but strictly limits the impact of any success.

Originally Posted by AK84

Howe destroys Washington at Long Island.

Ah, that is an interesting one. Could the Revolution have been snuffed that easily? I'm uncertain myself, but it certainly would have crippled it.

Originally Posted by AK84

Alexander the sort of okay gets his head cleaved in during the Battle of Garnicus. That would have far reaching consequences for todays world.

Maybe. But the Achaemenid state was a ramshackle, senescent mess by that point. Still immensely powerful in a general sense, but heading south politically and economically. And the Age of Hellenism in the east ultimately was an ephemera ( albeit a long-lived one with echoes down the ages ). If Alexander hadn't struck the death-blow, I'd predict eventual fragmentation ( barring the emergence of a truly dynamic reformer which Darius III didn't appear to be ) and it surely wouldn't have impeded the rise of Rome. One of the most significant impacts of Alex's conquest was the release of the immense hoard of gold that had been building up at the Persian capital for generations ( inflow exceeded outflow ), causing a severe shortage of bullion elsewhere and an increasingly anemic and strangled economy.

Now if Alexander had lived long enough to successfully conquer the Mediterranean Basin and leave an orderly succession...

Originally Posted by Nava

Blanca I of Navarre survives her second husband and their son Charles IV succeeds her peacefully; meanwhile, their daughter Blanca manages to get her husband, Henry II of Castille, in bed long enough to produce an heir. No Isabella and Ferdinand... doesn't necessarily mean things would have been nicer, but they sure would have been different!

Just as interesting, Miguel de Paz survives to peacefully unite the Iberian peninsula. You'd still have the rivalry with France in Italy, but no bleeding sore to deal with in the Low Countries. Don't know if an earlier unified Iberia would have fared better, but it certainly would be a bit different.

Or for another thwarted inheritance, Otto III survives to marry his Byzantine princess and sires an heir to both the Holy Roman and Byzantine Empires ( succeeding Constantine VIII ) . I doubt any unity would survive long, but it sure would have been interesting.

I'd be interested to see the Library of Alexandria survive intact ( which sadly would probably require more than one survival event ). Wouldn't change history much, but it would be a bibliophile's dream.

ETA: Ah, HMS Irruncible beat me to the last one .

[etv78]

Originally Posted by Alpha Twit

I'd just drop a word to America's founding fathers that maybe a bit of clarity on that second amendment wouldn't hurt. Is it just so we're armed for militia duty or can we have guns for any reason we like or no reason at all? I'm not that picky about what answer they give but lets make it crystal clear please.

YEAH! Pay attention to your commas!

[TriPolar]

Ronald Reagan pays his income taxes, and doesn't knock up his girlfriend Nancy Davis, and doesn't end up becoming the puppet of the right wing feudalists who have destroyed our glorious republic.

[JohnT]

Gavilro Princip - I tackle him as he is taking aim at the Archduke.

[KneadToKnow]

I'd delete the Holocaust from history, I think.

ETA: And frankly, I'm surprised it took 21 posts for it to come up.

[Horseface]

I would have ensured a bullet hit and killed Hitler in WWI and not his buddy next to him.

[The Second Stone]

During the invasion of Syracruse Archimedes is spared and not killed by an idiot Roman soldier.

[Kenm]

The colonists lose the First American Civil War and the po-faced hypocrite George Washington becomes a bankrupt and is forced to sell his slaves from within prison before his execution for treason.

Benedict Arnold, that great British patriot, would receive the earldom of New York as a reward.

But if that doesn't help, I'd change it back.

[Shakester]

Pitt the elder retains his health, thereby preventing the American revolution, resulting in the freedom of the slaves many decades earlier and without a bloody civil war, and saving us all from endless tedious American exceptionalism.

[AK84]

^
Yes absolutly the era which gave us rule Britannia would not see the concept of exceptional ism.

On a tangent read 17th and 18th century British history and especially what the contempories say about Britain and its system of Government. It..............explains Americans.

[An Arky]

Prevent the terrorist attacks of 9/11/01. Not only because it was a terrible tragedy, but because of the aftermath. So many lives and so much money just pissed away in a panic.

[Chicagojeff]

Stopped the transalantic slave trade.. I suppose Phineas t Bogg and Jeffrey could get the omni out and make that happen..

Without that tragedy it would be interesting to see how the colonies developed.. how Europe would have developed. And what would be the current state of the continent of Africa..

[elbows]

Cortez dies on his first voyage out and the Spanish crown swears to leave exploration to other nations.

Also, no burning of the Library of Alexandria. I want all that stuff back.

Great One!

[HMS Irruncible]

Originally Posted by JohnT

Gavilro Princip - I tackle him as he is taking aim at the Archduke.

It would have just been some other asshole.

Originally Posted by KneadToKnow

I'd delete the Holocaust from history, I think.

ETA: And frankly, I'm surprised it took 21 posts for it to come up.

I think "kill Hitler" and "avoid Holocaust" ought to be more or less assumed in this sort of thing.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by KneadToKnow

I'd delete the Holocaust from history, I think.

ETA: And frankly, I'm surprised it took 21 posts for it to come up.

I figured taking Lenin out of the picture would change the outcome of the Russian Revolution and World War I to the point where Hitler would never take power. So it was a two-fer of removing the Soviets and the Nazis from history.

[Imago]

Hmm. I'd look for some event or other that, being prevented, would hose down the hostilities that led to WWI. Something before the assassination of Ferdinand, for sure.

Not only do I think that's the only way you're getting the Holocaust not to happen without substituting a nuclear war or something, but if nobody had won that war with their newfangled technology industrialization from that point onward probably would have been a lot less sudden/hurried and caused less cynicism, materialism, nihilism et cetera to take hold.

Maybe it would be less environmentally damaging, too, but it's the culture shock of extremely rapid industrialization I'm mostly thinking of.

I think if WWI had to happen then I would switch my ambitions to taking out Lenin or making sure he lived and died in total obscurity or something. Again, it would prevent millions of deaths, but also, I think we'd all be a little more inclined to share and cooperate if the first mention of the word "communism" didn't send people into a frenzy.

Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi

Incidentally, its not as if the Aztecs were nice people either...

Nearly every culture in the world has probably practiced decades of sustained human sacrifice at some point (and by George if you ask for a cite I will facepalm through space and time). That doesn't make them bloodthirsty and cold-blooded.

Hell, what would the Aztecs think of* Mugabe? Mubarak? The Westboro Baptists?

* Hint: besides strength in battle they valued genuine religious piety, selflessness, women's health, and respect for the dead.

Huh. Come to think of it, what would I have to do to get the un-Cortez'd Aztecs to attack and colonize post-Civil War America?

[computergeek]

Like some others said, I wouldn't change anything, given the law of unintended consequences. What I would do is observe the historical events that are murky so that we have a better view of what happened.

[DrDeth]

No dropping of The Bomb in WWII. Not so much as it was a horrific way to kill 100000+ people, but that the it was "Atomic" something to be feared. We'd have 80% of our power now clean, safe nuclear, and much less Global Warming, not to mention other ecological problems.

The fact that the Eco-nuts can convince the Middle that Nukes are Evil is likely the worst thing to happen to the environment.

Of course, the problem here is that Atomic Bombs might have been used later, such as in Korea.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by JohnT

Gavilro Princip - I tackle him as he is taking aim at the Archduke.

Naw. WWI was inevitable*. The Great Powers were all salivating at the chance to get into what they thought would be a short clean victorious war.

* Which means WWII was inevitable, given letting the French buttfuck the Germans with the Treaty of Versailles. Hmm, maybe we could have a less sick Wilson actualy forcing the Allies into a reasonable Treaty.

[Guinastasia]

I would have prevented Frederick III of Germany from developing throat cancer. He would have reigned a lot longer than three months, and prevented Wilhelm II from taking the throne so early. Considering the impact Wilhelm had, it would have made a big difference in Europe.


Likewise, I would also prevent the assassination of Alexander II of Russia. He was just about to sign a constitution, and while it may not have been as enlightened as most people would wish for, Russia would have started the decline of autocracy sooner. Leading to a constitutional monarchy.

And adding to Lenin not coming back into the country, I would have given Kerensky more of a chance to gain control.

[Johanna]

Have the Pinta and the Santa María broken up and sunk at about 40ºW longitude by enormous sea serpents. Have some of the sailors taken off the Niña and eaten, while vast numbers of more sea serpents are visible to the west, and let the remainder of the Niña's crew escape back to Europe to spread the word.

[MrDurden]

Definitely the attacks on 9/11

I feel like we just live in a different world now. And not in a way like most people do being so paranoid, etc.. I think the fallout of millions of afraid people, (not to mention war, etc.) has been more harmful than the actual event.

I'd be afraid to change anything too much earlier than that... or really anything before the end of the cold war because I feel like altering things ever so slightly would have provoked a full scale nuclear war.

[Max the Immortal]

I'd probably steer clear of anything before the end of the Cold War. Having "only" two cities destroyed by nuclear fire might have been a surprisingly lucky roll of the dice. I'd probably prevent the 9/11 attacks, for same reasons cited by An Arky.

[Der Trihs]

I slightly alter our distant ancestors so that like bonobo females, human females are just as prone to gang up and organize as males are. The result should be far greater equality between the genders throughout history.

[panache45]

No plague in 5th century BC Athens.

[Bozuit]

Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi

-Richard Nixon is elected President of the United States in 1960

Why this?

[BobLibDem]

Carter's Iranian hostage rescue goes off without a hitch and the nation rewards him with a second term. Much of the evils of today can be traced back to Reagan- the notion that government is evil and is a beast to be starved, the idea that there is a free lunch and we're going to eat it, the demonization of unions, unfettered militarism, etc. Ronald Reagan should be remembered as a second-rate actor, not the patron saint of conservatism.

[Acid Lamp]

Prevent the issues faced by the Vinland Settlers so that initial contact between Europeans and Native Americans was very slow and in low numbers. By the time the rest of the lot got there, the Natives and the Vinland populations of immigrants should have had time to adjust to both diseases and cultural/technological advances held by Europeans.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Bozuit

Why this?

Because it would've been Nixon in Dallas instead of JFK?

[Tikkimouse]

When I'm walking in the rain I often imagine going back in time and introducing the folks of the Lewis and Clark expedition to marvels of Gore-Tex and good hiking boots.

[PeacePlease]

Robert Kennedy is not assassinated. I would go back to JFK's assassination but I think the wheels were already turning for Vietnam and as Pres. he wouldn't have been able to do much. I like to think that Bobby would have changed this.

[Martini Enfield]

I'd set it up so the British Empire was still around. Without the unsavoury racism and so on, though.

[MG-42]

A decisive win for the British against the traitorous rebellion by the American oligarchy and voila healthcare for all, the British Empire still rules the world. No WW1 and 2 either. Happy 4th ;-)

[Martini Enfield]

Originally Posted by MG-42

A decisive win for the British against the traitorous rebellion by the American oligarchy and voila healthcare for all, the British Empire still rules the world. No WW1 and 2 either. Happy 4th ;-)

It's more complicated than that - I'd actually say the Empire's dissolution really started with the partition/independence of India in 1947 - but I think it'd be very interesting to see how things would have turned out if the British had won the American War of Independence (or, having lost it, expanded their holdings in Canada further south and effectively kept the US at the original 13 colonies).