How do you say goodbye to someone who's dying?

[oreally]

There are some seriously warped people out there, and/or people who get seriously warped/stupid at the worst possible times.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by oreally

There are some seriously warped people out there, and/or people who get seriously warped/stupid at the worst possible times.

Just clueless. Well intentioned, but clueless.

[dnooman]

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

If you are REALLY CLOSE be there.

However, when my brother in law passed, there were people there that had NO BUSINESS in that room watching something so intensely private and not leaving room for the people that were REALLY CLOSE. This annoyed my husband and particularly my mother in law, who felt it was a) voyeuristic and b) intrusive on what should have been a private thing in the family.

I suppose I assumed that part. It never occurred to me that people would do something like that.

[WhyNot]

Not to sound too kanicbirdy, but there is an energy, nearly palpable, that surrounds births and deaths. Some people are drawn to that energy, and feed off of it, and get almost high from it. Plus this all happens in a liminal space that's often physically and temporally cut off from a person's everyday life and rubrics for decision making. Put it all together and you have people who make poor decisions about the appropriateness or usefulness of their presence.

Put into less woo terms - people around an imminent death, or birth, are in a heightened emotional state, and while the occasion is often stressful, they're also times when people come close together and emotionally support one another. They also get the adrenaline flowing, and sometimes people snap at each other and drama ensues. Some people crave the heightened social interaction, and so they hang out where they're not really welcome or appropriate.

They're not really there for the dying person, or for the family of the dying person, although they may fervently believe that to be the case. They're there because it makes them feel alive to be there.

(And by "they", I mean me, if I don't watch myself. I constantly check in and ask myself, "am I here for him or for me?" and I have to pay attention to the answer and decide on my location appropriately. But man, is it hard to walk away just when things are getting interesting sometimes!)

ETA: By the way - a good hospice nurse can help manage the flow of people if she sees this going on. (And at a birth, that's one of the doula's jobs - to kick out the mother-in-law if the laboring mother doesn't want her there but is too polite to ask her to leave.)

[WhyNot]

nm - made the edit window after all

[dnooman]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

Not to sound too kanicbirdy, but there is an energy, nearly palpable, that surrounds births and deaths. Some people are drawn to that energy, and feed off of it, and get almost high from it. Plus this all happens in a liminal space that's often physically and temporally cut off from a person's everyday life and rubrics for decision making. Put it all together and you have people who make poor decisions about the appropriateness or usefulness of their presence.

Put into less woo terms - people around an imminent death, or birth, are in a heightened emotional state, and while the occasion is often stressful, they're also times when people come close together and emotionally support one another. They also get the adrenaline flowing, and sometimes people snap at each other and drama ensues. Some people crave the heightened social interaction, and so they hang out where they're not really welcome or appropriate.

They're not really there for the dying person, or for the family of the dying person, although they may fervently believe that to be the case. They're there because it makes them feel alive to be there.

(And by "they", I mean me, if I don't watch myself. I constantly check in and ask myself, "am I here for him or for me?" and I have to pay attention to the answer and decide on my location appropriately. But man, is it hard to walk away just when things are getting interesting sometimes!)

ETA: By the way - a good hospice nurse can help manage the flow of people if she sees this going on. (And at a birth, that's one of the doula's jobs - to kick out the mother-in-law if the laboring mother doesn't want her there but is too polite to ask her to leave.)

What?!

I think what you're saying enforces Dangerosa's point.

Curiosity be damned. I think that a person should be entitled to a deathbed of those that they want there, not based on who is feeling "alive". Fuck that.

I know your screen name from the SDMB, do you want me at your deathbed because it makes me feel special?

Are you high?

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by dnooman

What?!

I think what you're saying enforces Dangerosa's point.

Yes, that was exactly my intent. To affirm that yes, this happens, it's actually quite common, there is spiritual and psychological explanation for it and yes, you would do well to have someone around to move people along when they shouldn't oughta be there.

Not high though, no.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by dnooman

Curiosity be damned. I think that a person should be entitled to a deathbed of those that they want there, not based on who is feeling "alive". Fuck that.

Its more complicated than that. It isn't curiosity - its a desire to be supportive and an inability to read the situation. My brother in law had a lot of friends who were......socially challenged even in better circumstances. Throw them into a situation where they hadn't been before, and they didn't have the playbook with the rules in it.

Another thing, from recent and painful experience, your death is not your death. You are a player in a larger drama - granted a central player. Your death is the death of your mother's son, your brother's brother, your wife's husband, your children's father, your best friend's best friend. You do not get to control what these people feel or who THEY need around them or whether they want to and have the capacity to be present.

[oreally]

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

Just clueless. Well intentioned, but clueless.

That too.

Originally Posted by WhyNot

Not to sound too kanicbirdy, but there is an energy, nearly palpable, that surrounds births and deaths. Some people are drawn to that energy, and feed off of it, and get almost high from it.

...which gets back to my warped statement. Such people are itching to be integrated firmly into a wall. Get high off of that emotional energy you POSs.

Originally Posted by WhyNot

Yes, that was exactly my intent. To affirm that yes, this happens, it's actually quite common, there is spiritual and psychological explanation for it

I've talked to hospice nurses who see a lot of this - no, it's actually not common (thank goodness) and no, there isn't a "spiritual" explanation for it. There's a simple one in fact: some people's stupidity is surpassed only by their gross thoughtlessness.

Originally Posted by Dangerosa

Its more complicated than that.

No it isn't.

your death is not your death.

Yes it is.

You do not get to control what these people feel or who THEY need around them.

No but you DO have control - or SHOULD - on who tf is around at such a time. How insanely selfish for someone to presume they have a "right" to be there if there's any real question as to whether the person passing wants them there or not.

PS I experienced this. Someone nearing the end only wanted a few select people there but certain "friends" or family members who associated with slimeballs invited themselves in anyway. I stopped associating with these slugs (and the slimeballs were oh so close to needing a hospital themselves).

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by oreally

That too.


...which gets back to my warped statement. Such people are itching to be integrated firmly into a wall. Get high off of that emotional energy you POSs.



I've talked to hospice nurses who see a lot of this - no, it's actually not common (thank goodness) and no, there isn't a "spiritual" explanation for it. There's a simple one in fact: some people's stupidity is surpassed only by their gross thoughtlessness.


No it isn't.

Yes it is.


No but you DO have control - or SHOULD - on who tf is around at such a time. How insanely selfish for someone to presume they have a "right" to be there if there's any real question as to whether the person passing wants them there or not.

PS I experienced this. Someone nearing the end only wanted a few select people there but certain "friends" or family members who associated with slimeballs invited themselves in anyway. I stopped associating with these slugs (and the slimeballs were oh so close to needing a hospital themselves).

So, you are saying that if my husband had wanted me in the room to support him through his brother's death (which he did, but I wasn't, because I was acting as bouncer) but my brother in law didn't I should have been excluded? Nope, doesn't work like that.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by oreally

I've talked to hospice nurses who see a lot of this - no, it's actually not common (thank goodness) and no, there isn't a "spiritual" explanation for it. There's a simple one in fact: some people's stupidity is surpassed only by their gross thoughtlessness.

I am a nurse. It's pretty common.

No but you DO have control - or SHOULD - on who tf is around at such a time. How insanely selfish for someone to presume they have a "right" to be there if there's any real question as to whether the person passing wants them there or not.

Yes, this part I completely agree with. If Dangerosa's husband needs emotional support during his brother's passing but his brother doesn't want her there, the best place for her to be is in a nearby room where her husband can come to her as he needs his needs met.

I'd like you to go back and read what I wrote. Simply because something is common (how many times have you heard tell of "rubbernecking" or "gapers' delay" because of road accidents? Same thing.) and just because something is understandable does NOT mean it should be allowed, encouraged or condoned.

[Dangerosa]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

I am a nurse. It's pretty common.



Yes, this part I completely agree with. If Dangerosa's husband needs emotional support during his brother's passing but his brother doesn't want her there, the best place for her to be is in a nearby room where her husband can come to her as he needs his needs met.

I'd like you to go back and read what I wrote. Simply because something is common (how many times have you heard tell of "rubbernecking" or "gapers' delay" because of road accidents? Same thing.) and just because something is understandable does NOT mean it should be allowed, encouraged or condoned.

The thing here is that in the cases of deathbeds I've attended, the person dying really isn't in a position to communicate "you, but not you.". Unless you've made pretty extensive plans for the moment of your death, people are going to need to wing it. Since I haven't been at one yet where the person had been responsive for several hours (and often days). I think you guys have a point, if my brother in law hated me, I wouldnt have been in the room... But that wasn't the issue, nor is it the issue I'm getting at. The issue I'm getting at is that this is an intimate thing, but it's outside your control and touches people other than you (at least, I hope it does).