Choosing a new flooring for damp basement

[Ravenman]

Here's the situation: I have a laundry room in my basement that is.... gross. It's just plain dirty everywhere. So I'm embarking on a project to clean it up, paint some stuff, new shelves, etc.

The dilemma is the floor. The room has asbestos floor tiles that just will not do. They are in respectable shape (in that they are not breaking, peeling, or falling apart, but there are a couple that are missing). My plan is to go over them with some type of covering, but the hitch is that a few times a year there is some water seepage in the basement -- not a lot, just enough to make parts of the existing tile visibly damp. I just want to make sure I'm putting down something in the right way that will be able to deal with the dampness.

So, my questions are:

1. I'm thinking vinyl flooring is probably the best option... right?
2. If so, any recommendations on whether I should prefer vinyl tiles or sheets?
3. Any thoughts on how to deal with the couple of spots where an existing asbestos tile is missing?
4. Any thoughts on prep work or what adhesives to use?

Thanks!

[Sicks Ate]

Not an expert, but maybe an epoxy floor paint would be a good idea, rather that putting down another layer of material that will be ruined by moisture.

[Ravenman]

I have thought about that, but something tells me that the work of cleaning the tile to prepare it for paint is just not worth the time. I just think that going right over the floor with something new will yield better results.

[chela]

Damp basement? Where is the damp coming from, seepage from the ground or say a leaky faucet or overflow from a dehumidifier? In any case Forget about vinyl, the epoxy paint sounds like a solution short of ripping out asbestos tile and damp proofing the basement.

[gotpasswords]

Another vote for a good prep and floor paint.

Most DIY sheet vinyl flooring has a paper backing that will be Mold City in no time at all if there is an existing moisture problem.

For the missing tiles, you can glue down solid vinyl tiles. No guarantee that the thickness will be an exact match, but it should wind up better than completely missing tiles.

[Ravenman]

Hm. Well, I sense a trend here... I'm not totally enthused about a painted floor, but I guess it makes sense.

[thelabdude]

I have seen epoxies at Lowes meant for garage floors that are permeable to moisture. Likely available elsewhere and perhaps a good choice.

Me, damn the asbestos, rip the old out, and put down sheet vinyl.

[lance strongarm]

Put in a floating floor - no glue. Then you don't have to worry about glue, obviously.

There are floating floors made specifically for moist areas. For example:

http://www.placengo.com/googlead/wet...FYhM4Aod43lg3A

First put down a vapor barrier to block most of the moisture (you can glue that down). Use a simple embossing leveler - a special cement you can get at the flooring store or Home Depot - to fill in where tiles are missing.

Don't pull up asbestos. It's incredibly hazardous and could contaminate the entire home forever.

I'm presuming the moisture is from seepage from the bottom and not flooding. If it's flooding, put in ceramic tile and put a throw rug over it.

Paint may or may not work on the tile. You might need to prep it first somehow. Read the label carefully.

[thelabdude]

Damn the fearmongerers. I can't find the figures, but mesothelioma is quite rare in people without direct or indirect occupational exposure.

[lance strongarm]

Originally Posted by thelabdude

Damn the fearmongerers. I can't find the figures, but mesothelioma is quite rare in people without direct or indirect occupational exposure.

Uh, yeah, random anonymous guy on the Internet who can't find the figures is saying that asbestos can't hurt you! So go for it!

[Sicks Ate]

You're not going to get cancer from pulling up 10 0sq. ft. of asbestos tile. Asbestos is dangerous when the filaments become airborne...and, like thelabdude said, when you inhale a shit ton of it.

Unless you're in California, where the existense of asbestos in neighboring states has been found to cause cancer.

[lance strongarm]

Originally Posted by Sicks Ate

You're not going to get cancer from pulling up 10 0sq. ft. of asbestos tile.

You're probably right.

But I'm not going to take advice on whether I can get cancer from a hazardous substance in my home from some random guy on the internet.

Asbestos is dangerous when the filaments become airborne...and, like thelabdude said, when you inhale a shit ton of it.

You don't see how pulling up tile can make the stuff airborne?

Like I said, doesn't matter. I don't take advice of this kind from random strangers on the internet, and nobody should.

(Yes, I know I gave advice too - but what I meant was don't pull them up unless an expert says its okay).

[Sicks Ate]

Originally Posted by lance strongarm

You don't see how pulling up tile can make the stuff airborne?

Well sure I can see how, potentially, you could break a tile or two. But it's not going to hurt you.

Originally Posted by lance strongarm

.... but what I meant was don't pull them up unless an expert says its okay).

An expert will charge you a couple grand, tent your basement with plastic, and walk in there with a respirator and Tyvek suit.


My point is that if it's pulling up a few tiles that's keeping the guy from having a nice finish on his floor, it's probably nothing that he really needs to worry about.

[lance strongarm]

Originally Posted by Sicks Ate

Well sure I can see how, potentially, you could break a tile or two. But it's not going to hurt you.

Sure it's not.

An expert will charge you a couple grand, tent your basement with plastic, and walk in there with a respirator and Tyvek suit.

Yep, it's all a scam!

My point is that if it's pulling up a few tiles that's keeping the guy from having a nice finish on his floor, it's probably nothing that he really needs to worry about.

Probably. But he shouldn't be asking us that before he decides.

[chela]

Let that sleeping tile lie, keep the tiles in the dark, a floating floor sound slike the next best thing. What about lead paint? Old house, maybe with lots of coats of paint, can assume it's there too.

ANother tack, check out local programs that might help homeowners mitigate these hazards in your home...esp if young childeren are in the home.

aaack asbestos in the basement!!!!!!!!! your own little shop of horrors..

[lance strongarm]

Originally Posted by chela

Let that sleeping tile lie

Even without asbestos, it's so much easier! Pulling up tile sucks. If it's an issue with the tile not sticking due to moisture, pulling it up and gluing or mortaring down something new could just have the same problem. Hence floating floor.

Another option - this kind of underlayment made for wet floors:

http://www.dricore.com/

[thelabdude]

I have taken up several floors. Usually the old tile comes up quickly. I was a little late to one group project. The tile was mostly up except for a few stubborn ones. My torch made quick work of them.

[lance strongarm]

Originally Posted by thelabdude

I have taken up several floors. Usually the old tile comes up quickly. I was a little late to one group project. The tile was mostly up except for a few stubborn ones. My torch made quick work of them.

Why do it in this case though? Just put the new floor over the old. No asbestos, no extra work.

[Ravenman]

I lost track of this thread for a bit... thanks for all the responses.

My reluctance to pull the tile is probably 50-50 on the tile being asbestos and it just being a pain in the ass. The area I am cleaning up is probably, oh, 150 square feet, so my thought was simply going over the tile would save a lot of work.

I will check out the floating floors and the Dricore stuff some more. I'm still working on cleaning and repainting the walls right now, and my motivation to make progress has waned slightly with the heat. I'll probably start dealing with the floor in a couple weeks.

[Sparky812]

I am a trained in asbestos abatement and can clarify some facts in the asbestos removal debate.
Vinyl asbestos floor tile is classified as a non-friable asbestos product. The asbestos fibres are bound or locked into the product matrix, so that the fibres are not readily released. Such a product would present a risk for fibre release only when it is subject to significant abrasion through activities such as sanding or cutting with electric power tools.
Removal of these tiles is considered a Type 1 operation which is defined as one that does not generate appreciable levels of airborne asbestos and generally presents little hazard to workers or bystanders.

What this means is that with hand tools it is virtually impossible for you to create particles small enough to become airborne and potentially enter into your lungs.

A small area of 150 sq. feet is a small enough project that you could perform the work yourself or if you are uncomfortable you could hire a professional.


Personally, I would remove the asbestos because the potential hazard in the future.
I believe that The Brotherhood of the Right Way would agree with me that burying the asbestos under another floor is not the conscientiousness thing to do.

Also, count me as another vote for Dricore or for larger areas, Platon with 5/8" OSB.

[lance strongarm]

Originally Posted by Sparky812

I am a trained in asbestos abatement and can clarify some facts in the asbestos removal debate.

Thank you for weighing in. An expert is who we needed here.

Originally Posted by Sicks Ate

An expert will charge you a couple grand, tent your basement with plastic, and walk in there with a respirator and Tyvek suit.

Sparky, is this likely? Or would an expert simply tell you what you told us?

[Sparky812]

Originally Posted by lance strongarm

Sparky, is this likely? Or would an expert simply tell you what you told us?

Yes, for a several reasons.

1.) Procedure - they treat all removal projects similarly.
2.) Equipment - they already have all the proper equipment.
3.) Disposal of the hazardous materials.
4.)To minimize contamination to adjacent areas and ensure complete removal.
5.)To minimize asbestos exposure to the workers who are exposed on a regular basis.
6.) It gives the homeowner peace of mind.
7.) to make money.

The first step would be to have a sample tested to verify that it actually contains asbestos then you could decide how to proceed.

I'm in Canada but in the US, I believe the EPA and your state law dictate acceptable removal procedures.
The most common procedure would be to tent the area, flood the floor with water, remove tile with a flat spade, and place in 6 mil. bag (while still wet), then seal the bags and deliver it to the proper hazardous waste disposal site.
A Tyvek suit and a a respirator fitted with a NIOSH 100(HEPA) filter is the basic (minimum) level of protection.

[lance strongarm]

Originally Posted by Sparky812

Yes, for a several reasons.

1.) Procedure - they treat all removal projects similarly.

Then what was that "Type 1" operation you were talking about?

[Sparky812]

Originally Posted by lance strongarm

Then what was that "Type 1" operation you were talking about?

It is a Canadian classification, apparently.

Here is a summary of the procedures for Ontario, Canada that should tell you all you need to know.

[lance strongarm]

I'm no expert, but in the U.S. I'd say it's likely that the recomendation would be that you simply leave the floor alone and put a new floor over it, perhaps after sealing the tiles.

After digging, I found that it's a state issue, and most states don't require removal. Most also regulate who can remove it.

http://www.rfmnet.com/ftf.htm

According to the EPA, vinyl asbestos floor tiles typically do not need to be removed during renovation or demolition, because they generally do not release significant amounts of asbestos fibers. However, if they are in poor condition or likely to become friable during work activities, they must be removed. Also, if VAT’s are sanded, ground, abraded or chipped, they must be considered friable (which means the material can be crumbled or pulverized by hand pressure), and stricter work practices will apply. There has been much debate over the last few years about how much fibers are released when asbestos floor tiles are removed. As such, almost each state has taken a different stance on the issue.

[Sparky812]

Originally Posted by lance strongarm

I'm no expert, but in the U.S. I'd say it's likely that the recomendation would be that you simply leave the floor alone and put a new floor over it, perhaps after sealing the tiles.

After digging, I found that it's a state issue, and most states don't require removal.
http://www.rfmnet.com/ftf.htm

The decision to remove it is up to the homeowner but removal is recommended if the flooring has significant wear or damage resulting in the material becoming friable, or in the case of a future renovation or demolition which could also yield this result.

Originally Posted by lance strongarm

Most also regulate who can remove it.

Did you read your own cite?

41 states and the District of Columbia "do not generally require licensed asbestos abatement personnel to remove non-friable asbestos containing floor tiles when Recommended Work Practices (RWP’s) are used"


You obviously have a bone to pick in this debate, I have provided my 2 cents, take it or leave it. I'm out.

Ravenman: Good Luck with the project. Let us know how it goes and if you need any further advice.

[lance strongarm]

Originally Posted by Sparky812

Did you read your own cite?

41 states and the District of Columbia "do not generally require licensed asbestos abatement personnel to remove non-friable asbestos containing floor tiles when Recommended Work Practices (RWP’s) are used"

I meant most have something to say about who can remove it, not that they don't allow homeowners to do it.

You obviously have a bone to pick in this debate, I have provided my 2 cents, take it or leave it. I'm out.

I'm just having a conversation. Glad you could provide your expert input.