How come no one talks about "consensual" domestic violence?

[choie]

DianaG, how does your convenient little homily address the instances brought up earlier where abusive spouses/partners quite often beat their partners into such states (emotional/mental states, I mean) that they're too afraid to leave? They've been raped and beaten, and probably their lives (and their loved ones' lives, possibly children) threatened if they attempt to leave. And you still think just because they didn't leave they're "consenting" to this treatment?

That's a fucking scary sentiment.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by grude

wailing on each other.

Nitpick: "Wail" is a cry of anguish. Beating on a person or metaphorically a guitar solo is "whaling." I know usage has made things muddy but that's why they call it a nitpick.

[astro]

Originally Posted by choie

DianaG, how does your convenient little homily address the instances brought up earlier where abusive spouses/partners quite often beat their partners into such states (emotional/mental states, I mean) that they're too afraid to leave? They've been raped and beaten, and probably their lives (and their loved ones' lives, possibly children) threatened if they attempt to leave. And you still think just because they didn't leave they're "consenting" to this treatment?

That's a fucking scary sentiment.

Full on terrorizing, rape and death threats may happen in certain situations, but the scenario DianaG mentions is far, far more common in everday life where people decide that leaving a relationship with occasional bouts of violence is less desirable than staying. Obviously this position can change over time.

[DianaG]

Originally Posted by choie

DianaG, how does your convenient little homily address the instances brought up earlier where abusive spouses/partners quite often beat their partners into such states (emotional/mental states, I mean) that they're too afraid to leave? They've been raped and beaten, and probably their lives (and their loved ones' lives, possibly children) threatened if they attempt to leave. And you still think just because they didn't leave they're "consenting" to this treatment?

That's a fucking scary sentiment.

I believe that I already said that there are some extraordinary circumstances that I believe make it difficult for a small percentage of people to leave an abusive relationship. But the thing is... no one gets raped and beaten and has their family's lives threatened on the first date. One way to avoid getting into the state you describe is by getting the fuck out of there the first time someone hits you. If you don't you are consenting to be abused. I'm sorry that hurts your feelings, but it's true.

But you know what's a really scary sentiment? Being more concerned with abused peoples' feelings than their safety. I'm not interested in being a shoulder to cry on, I'm the foot that's going to kick some sense into you, and I'm not about to apologize for that.

[DianaG]

Missed the edit window, but I just want to say; it's not that I don't have any sympathy. But while sympathy is nice and a start, it doesn't solve the problem. The problem is solved by leaving. Nothing gets any better until you do that, so do that. And at the end of the day, most people need some hard truth and a good shove to change their behavior.

[elbows]

The number one reason women, don't speak openly, of the violence they themselves have suffered, is because they don't want to be judged by people like you.

Chances are, every time you express this theory of yours, you are doing so before at least one women who has the actual life experience to know how full of shit it is.

People all think they have an iron will, "I'd fight to the death". People generally believe such things right up until they have actually been, beaten into submission. They are never the same again. The next expression of real will, that first step to get out, is Herculean. I'm glad you don't know from experience, what you're talking about. I hope you never do.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by DianaG

But the thing is... no one gets raped and beaten and has their family's lives threatened on the first date.

Well, exactly. So by the time you get hit, you've already invested a lot of time and emotion and possibly financial security into this relationship, and your abuser has also potentially had a lot of time to convince you of a lot of crazy-ass stuff, like that being hit is your fault and you probably deserved it. Or whatever.

But you know what's a really scary sentiment? Being more concerned with abused peoples' feelings than their safety. I'm not interested in being a shoulder to cry on, I'm the foot that's going to kick some sense into you, and I'm not about to apologize for that.

Fair enough, but the idea that being victimized is somehow consensual isn't sensible at all. And your advice to "just leave, duh," is sort of like telling someone who's trying to kick an addiction, "just quit smoking, duh." Yes, some people can just quit cold turkey, and good for them. But a lot more people need some kind of help and assistance to quit, just as most abuse victims need help and assistance to get out of the abusive situation. Sure, if you're talking to an individual person who's in denial about their situation, saying, "You need to just get out of there because you're being abused" could conceivably be helpful. I don't logically follow how you can then make a blanket statement that abuse victims are consensually participating in their own abuse.

[DianaG]

Originally Posted by elbows

I'm glad you don't know from experience, what you're talking about. I hope you never do.

I'm glad too, but that's not exactly a random blessing, you know. I've never been in an abusive relationship because I'm not having that shit, not because no one thought it would be a fun thing to try.

Originally Posted by MrsWhatsit

most abuse victims need help and assistance to get out of the abusive situation

I'm all for help and assistance. Nonetheless, the answer IS "leave, duh."

All the warm fuzzy lack of judgement is nice, but again... it doesn't solve the problem. The reasons people get into this situation may be complicated, but the solution isn't. There's only one. Do it, or you're part of the problem.

[MPB in Salt Lake]

What about a woman worth ten of millions of dollars, with adoring fans who follow her every move, constantly telling her how lovely and talented she is, a social support network that 99.999% of us could only dream of.

She gets viciously beaten by her boyfriend, and thousands of people send her messages of support and love when she announces she is dumping her abusive partner.

A year later, they are back dating again; Will she, should she be pitied when he savagely attacks her the next time?

[Bam Boo Gut]

MPB in Salt Lake I think that situation developed the way it did because some friend leaked the pictures of her battered face.

[MPB in Salt Lake]

Originally Posted by Bam Boo Gut

MPB in Salt Lake I think that situation developed the way it did because some friend leaked the pictures of her battered face.

So you don't think she would have broken up with him at all if not for the public outcry?

I honestly don't remember the details, and although I might sound callus, the next time around, it's gonna be mighty hard for me to muster any sympathy for her....

(And yes, I know she doesn't give a flying fuck whether or not I feel sorry for her)

[Bam Boo Gut]

Well, I don't know, I didn't follow it too closely myself either. I didn't know they were dating again. I suspect it wasn't the first incident - wasn't there some windshield breaking saga in Barbados?

[Otara]

I used to work in DV

Ive seen people repeatedly told is was their fault if they didnt leave and seen people told it wasnt their fault if someone else chose to be violent towards them, and the responsibility always lies 100% with the person being violent.

No prizes for guessing which ones ended up leaving more often.

Otara

[overlyverbose]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

Well, exactly. So by the time you get hit, you've already invested a lot of time and emotion and possibly financial security into this relationship, and your abuser has also potentially had a lot of time to convince you of a lot of crazy-ass stuff, like that being hit is your fault and you probably deserved it. Or whatever.

Fair enough, but the idea that being victimized is somehow consensual isn't sensible at all. And your advice to "just leave, duh," is sort of like telling someone who's trying to kick an addiction, "just quit smoking, duh." Yes, some people can just quit cold turkey, and good for them. But a lot more people need some kind of help and assistance to quit, just as most abuse victims need help and assistance to get out of the abusive situation. Sure, if you're talking to an individual person who's in denial about their situation, saying, "You need to just get out of there because you're being abused" could conceivably be helpful. I don't logically follow how you can then make a blanket statement that abuse victims are consensually participating in their own abuse.

Very well said. Many abusers emotionally isolate their victims very effectively before any physical abuse ever begins. And it's so very subtle and insidious. I had no idea what was going on until I was living in a different city from my boyfriend (we both left for college). My then roommate and best friend was the one who took me aside and helped me understand that the relationship I was living in, coming back from breaks covered in bruises or finishing every call in tears and terrified that Bill would show up one night, wasn't normal. Looking back on it, I remember at one point being flattered that my boyfriend was so "protective" of me. Protective to the point where I wasn't allowed to go out unless he was with me, unless it was with my family and others were able to account for my whereabouts.

And you want so much to avoid the thought that someone you love, who makes you feel like you have worth, has just beaten the crap out of you or held you down and raped you or both. The first time I had my head slammed into a locker I should've told someone. He did it in front of two of my friends, so I had witnesses. Instead I was so shocked that that really had just happened that I shrugged it off. He didn't mean anything by it. Really. He was sorry. He was almost crying. Of course it was ok. I must've touched a nerve. I should just watch what I say next time. Really - it was my fault. I should've been more sensitive. It didn't hurt that much. And so on.

I'm not eschewing all blame or saying that abuse victims don't have some responsibility to help themselves. But it's not as easy as getting up and leaving.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by DianaG

I'm all for help and assistance.

Then we are in agreement on this point. Where I don't agree is that being beaten is "consensual" - unless it is some kind of BDSM scenario in which the beaten party actually did agree beforehand in clear terms that yes, she really wants to be beaten. Simply not having yet left an abusive relationship does not constitute consent.

And at the end of the day, most people need some hard truth and a good shove to change their behavior.

Sure. It's a long walk from this, which is reasonable, to suggesting that abuse victims are consenting to their own abuse, which is not.

[DianaG]

"Consent" doesn't mean "want". It means permit. If you choose to remain in a relationship with someone who beats you, that's permission.

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by DianaG

"Consent" doesn't mean "want". It means permit. If you choose to remain in a relationship with someone who beats you, that's permission.

I disagree. If I choose to remain in a relationship with someone who continually leaves his wet bath towel on my side of the bed, does that mean I'm consenting to having a wet bath towel on my side of the bed? Even though there are a huge variety of actions I could take to solve this problem, including moving into my own bedroom, burning all the bath towels, or divorcing this person, I am still not consenting to his wet bath towel on my side of the bed even though I have not moved/burned/divorced anything. Similarly, if a co-worker keeps sending me porn emails at work, I am not consenting to that action even though I could end it by quitting my job. "But you chose to remain at that job and you even chose to open emails from this person even though he has sometimes sent you porn emails in the past, so you have consented to his actions" does not sound particularly logical or sensible to me.

Perhaps you and I are destined to disagree on this point.

[Nava]

Originally Posted by DianaG

"Consent" doesn't mean "want". It means permit. If you choose to remain in a relationship with someone who beats you, that's permission.

Does that include being mistreated by parents and teachers? Cos I sure didn't give Mr. Frankenstein permission to be an abusive ass, but there also was no way I could avoid having him for class 8 hours every day, five days a week.

Romantic relationships aren't the only ones that can be abusive.

[DianaG]

Originally Posted by MsWhatsit

I disagree. If I choose to remain in a relationship with someone who continually leaves his wet bath towel on my side of the bed, does that mean I'm consenting to having a wet bath towel on my side of the bed? Even though there are a huge variety of actions I could take to solve this problem, including moving into my own bedroom, burning all the bath towels, or divorcing this person, I am still not consenting to his wet bath towel on my side of the bed even though I have not moved/burned/divorced anything. Similarly, if a co-worker keeps sending me porn emails at work, I am not consenting to that action even though I could end it by quitting my job. "But you chose to remain at that job and you even chose to open emails from this person even though he has sometimes sent you porn emails in the past, so you have consented to his actions" does not sound particularly logical or sensible to me.

Perhaps you and I are destined to disagree on this point.

I suspect we are, because again, to me, "consent" doesn't mean "I'm thrilled about this". It means that you have made the decision that this is something that you're willing to live with in return for whatever benefit you derive from the relationship or job in question, or hell, maybe through sheer inertia. Often, that's a perfectly reasonable and good decision. But it is a decision. You have other options.

Again, I'm not without sympathy. But there are a whole lot of problems in the world that aren't as simply solved as "DTMFA" so prolonged and repeated failure to do the one simple (perhaps not easy, but certainly simple) thing that needs to be done to solve the problem speaks to an unwillingness to do so, which is consent to live with the problem.

Originally Posted by Nava

Does that include being mistreated by parents and teachers? Cos I sure didn't give Mr. Frankenstein permission to be an abusive ass, but there also was no way I could avoid having him for class 8 hours every day, five days a week.

Clearly not, but don't let the actual topic of conversation interrupt your righteous indignation.

Originally Posted by Nava

Romantic relationships aren't the only ones that can be abusive.

That's absolutely true. You should start a thread about that.

[elbows]

Again, I'm not without sympathy.

Saying it doesn't make it so, especially when you then proceed to say things like:

an unwillingness to do so

Though it has been explained, over and over, in this thread, that it's the inability of the beaten into submission slave, to demonstrate 'will' over the serial abuser, not unwillingness, you simply cannot get it. Because you are too busy judging others, for something you have no experience with, and continue to demonstrate complete deafness to those who actually do.

We get your position, the whole world feels your superiority and judgment. I suggest you stop defending, your already clearly repeated stance, you're embarrassing yourself.

[DianaG]

Inability my ass. When you call these women powerless, you're just reinforcing what their abusers have told them. Way to collude. I have nothing to be embarrassed about, since my message is "You CAN change this."

[Imago]

If we're talking about what I think the OP is talking about, sadists and masochists are a serious minority. Most people do not enjoy being wounded by their spouse.

If there's noise, shouting, and crying, chances are you are not calling the cops on an elaborate bedroom roleplay scene. You are calling the cops on serious and heinous abuse.

And if you did end up accidentally calling the police on an act of consensual pain/submission play, the injured party is highly likely to set you straight. If, on the other hand, one party says it was all consensual and the other doesn't, you have a genuine case of abuse, not BDSM. End of story.

Originally Posted by DianaG

While recognizing that there are extraordinary circumstances that prevent a small number of people from leaving an abusive relationship, I'd say that 97% of domestic violence is consensual. The first time a person hits you, that's a surprise. The second time a person hits you (and every time thereafter) you consented to that by, you know, being there.

If this were any other forum, I would say something very vulgar to you right now and be done with it, but since it's the Dope I'll have to leave it at this:

Originally Posted by DianaG

Clearly not, but don't let the actual topic of conversation interrupt your righteous indignation.

That's blatantly condescending, and Nava had a valid point. After reading that line, anyone who believes your stance is about empowerment is viewing things through a seriously distorted glass.

[elbows]

I'm glad too, but that's not exactly a random blessing, you know. I've never been in an abusive relationship because I'm not having that shit, not because no one thought it would be a fun thing to try.

Blaming the victim, straight up.

you call these women powerless, you're just reinforcing what their abusers

There aren't enough rolleyes, on earth.

[redtail23]

Originally Posted by DianaG

you're just reinforcing what their abusers have told them.

As are you.

"It's all your fault, you're doing it all wrong; you're so fucked up, you're just asking for it; you're so stupid that you can't even figure out the incredibly simple solution to all your problems; it's so easy to fix this and you just refuse to do so, so obviously you want this."

That's what YOU are saying to those abuse victims, in all of your righteous glory.

Nice.

I thought the same sort of thing, once upon a time, when I was in my early twenties. But I've grown up since then, and realized that I don't always know everything. Also, I have known a couple of abused women, something that you obviously don't*.

One towards the end of the abusive relationship, shortly before she got out. One at the beginning, when it was obvious to everyone BUT her what was going on (nothing physical at that point). It is truly bizarre and hard to believe if you haven't seen that weird mental state up close and personal.

* Well, you probably do. But they're not likely to confide in you, are they? They can get told how stupid and worthless they are at home, they don't really need you for that. And since you're willing to insist that your opinion is the ONE AND ONLY TRUTH, in the face of experienced people trying to tell you that it is not, I'm sure you convey that message pretty clearly to anyone around you.

[Lakai]

Originally Posted by DianaG

I suspect we are, because again, to me, "consent" doesn't mean "I'm thrilled about this". It means that you have made the decision that this is something that you're willing to live with in return for whatever benefit you derive from the relationship or job in question, or hell, maybe through sheer inertia. Often, that's a perfectly reasonable and good decision. But it is a decision. You have other options.

Again, I'm not without sympathy. But there are a whole lot of problems in the world that aren't as simply solved as "DTMFA" so prolonged and repeated failure to do the one simple (perhaps not easy, but certainly simple) thing that needs to be done to solve the problem speaks to an unwillingness to do so, which is consent to live with the problem.

If someone doesn't leave the relationship because of domestic violence, it doesn't mean they are making the choice to live with domestic violence.

No one making this decision thinks that the abuse will continue. No one after first being assaulting by a loved one thinks that "he'll probably hit me again a few times a month, but it's ok because I don't really feel like leaving." No one thinks like that.

Victims usually think the abuse will stop. They either convince themselves that the abuse was their fault because they hit a nerve; or they believe the abuser's apology and think it won't happen again.

Victims hope that by staying in the relationship, they can make it work. They probably can't, but it's hard to know that unless you have experience with the issue. It's easy to look at a broken relationship in hindsight and say that the victim should have left at the first blow. However, when you're in that relationship that's been going on for over a year, and the guy or girl who is otherwise perfect attacks you, your first thought is not to pack it all up and give up on the last year of your life.

[MsRobyn]

Originally Posted by DianaG

Inability my ass. When you call these women powerless, you're just reinforcing what their abusers have told them. Way to collude. I have nothing to be embarrassed about, since my message is "You CAN change this."

Except that a lot of these people can't. They are held hostage by their abusers either physically or emotionally. I'd love to see you leave a relationship with someone who's got you convinced that they'll kill you if you do. Or take your children and never let you see them again. Or kill you and your children. And by "kill", I mean "literally cause your death".

Abusers are not stupid. They are smart and they are cunning. They know how to isolate their victims from their families, friends, and other support systems. They know how to gaslight their victims so that their victims believe that they're the ones at fault, and that the abuse isn't really happening. And they're charming and can make themselves seem sincere to their victims and to others. Finally, a lot of them are good at keeping the abuse on the downlow -- they cause injuries that won't show, or they keep it to emotional abuse and don't touch the victim at all.

And what may be most devastating of all is that many people who do manage to escape an abusive situation may find it difficult to get help. Abusers are very, very good at lying to outsiders to make them believe that everything is fine, and that the victim is making it up for attention, or for some other reason. Consequently, the victim may find little to no support in their own community because no one believes them, and one of the women I've met who left her abusive marriage, her own family turned on her and insisted that she go back to her husband, because she wronged him, and that she needed to make amends to him because of her "transgressions". Of course, she hadn't done anything wrong, but her husband had her family convinced that she was mentally unbalanced and acting out against him and their children. It took a few years before her family really understood what had been going on, and she herself is still dealing with the aftereffects of years of abuse, even though it's been about ten years since she left.

I know this is TL;DR, but it's not as easy to just walk out as you seem to think it is.

[olivesmarch4th]

When I was 17 I started dating this guy who showed signs of being abusive. The first time, he pushed me back into a room during an argument and wouldn't let me leave. I told him if he did it again, I would break up with him. The second time, he again wouldn't let me leave and held me down on the bed by my throat. In that instance, every feeling of affection I had ever had for him disappeared forever. I made nice with him that night but as soon as I was able to leave, I broke up with him immediately. He was kind of stalkery for a while until I threatened to call the police.

For a long time I've had similar notions to DianaG because of that experience, and I was going to come in and say something to the same effect. But seeing her say it makes me realize how ridiculous it is.

[sciurophobic]

I thought the situation in question was when both spouses are violent to each other. Are they both abusive? Or are they both victims? Or neither?

[MsWhatsit]

Originally Posted by olivesmarch4th

When I was 17 I started dating this guy who showed signs of being abusive. The first time, he pushed me back into a room during an argument and wouldn't let me leave. I told him if he did it again, I would break up with him. The second time, he again wouldn't let me leave and held me down on the bed by my throat. In that instance, every feeling of affection I had ever had for him disappeared forever. I made nice with him that night but as soon as I was able to leave, I broke up with him immediately. He was kind of stalkery for a while until I threatened to call the police.

For a long time I've had similar notions to DianaG because of that experience, and I was going to come in and say something to the same effect. But seeing her say it makes me realize how ridiculous it is.

Honestly, for me it's the same as not harshing out on people for making egregious spelling mistakes all over the place just because I happen to be a naturally good speller, and "if I can spell everything correctly the first time, why can't you?" Yes, there is spell check, and people should learn to proofread and take care with what they write. But it's not really fair for me to expect other people to have the same innate abilities and talents that I do.

Similarly, some of us are confident enough or brave enough or smart enough or whatever enough to be able to either 1) avoid abusive partners in the first place or 2) get out of the abusive relationship immediately as soon as the first signs emerge. But not everyone is, and I think that expecting it of everyone is unrealistic and unfair.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by elbows

So are you now implying that the situation you've witnessed with your wife's cousin enables you to recognize 'consensual' violence on sight? Or is your experience of it, just colouring your willingness to even pick up a phone and report anything that looks like it? I am still confused by what stand you are taking really.

It's not about recognizing "consensual violence" in a couple the first time you see them. It's about recognizing the pattern of behavior after you've reported them numerous times, and they are still together and still doing shit like this.

[elbows]

Under the law, I'm not sure anyone can consent to being a crime victim. It's a misnomer.

Do you imagine, if you could press pause and inquire, "Do you wish this beating to continue?", either would say, "Oh, yes please!" Of course not. It should be called by what it is serial domestic violence.

They are both victims, and they are both perpetrators, they should both be charged. Every time. As it should be reported. Every time. Because beating your spouse is either a crime, or it's not. But mostly because that is how this kind of violence, is stopped.

You have to sensitive up the police force, get them out there every damn time, laying charges, courts levying fines and jail time. As specified for the crime of spousal abuse, in the criminal code. People have to report and cops have to know action will be taken, by the courts, to make it worth their while to pursue. You have to alter the law slightly so the police officer, after a few visits, can put an end to the shit by charging and processing both combatants.

But mostly you gotta get people not to just look the other way, and apathetically assume, nothing will happen anyway.

[jsgoddess]

I currently volunteer with a clinic that includes help for domestic violence.

Many of these people (not all of them women) don't see any help or any resources or any hope. What they see is: "I'm not that badly hurt. My situation isn't that bad, I guess. The neighbor lady is a single mom and she is getting evicted and her kids are hungry. My kids are getting food and they have a roof over their heads and he hasn't done anything to them. It's worth staying to keep them from being homeless. No one cares about me. The shelters are full. The city is trying to save money. If I complain I'll be deported and won't see my kids ever again. If I complain they won't believe me and he'll get the kids. If I complain, my parents will think I'm a whore for abandoning my husband. If I complain, I'm admitting that I am weak. If I complain, he'll kill me. If I complain, my life will be over. I'm still alive. It must not be so bad."

No, not every woman has every one of these thoughts, and some of the thoughts are irrational or false. But the courts or the cops can only do so much, and the resources aren't there (at least in LA) to help everyone who needs help. The thousands of homeless on the streets are living examples of how few resources are out there (and I'm sure seeing the homeless scares some of the DV victims even more).