I pit the derisive, condenscending, anti-conspiriacy ... [merged threads]

[LeeshaJoy]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

What is the connection between the Occupy movement and the Illuminati?

Nothing. One is well-documented, the other has no evidence for its existence.

What could the New World Order become in the future?

Fuck if I know. Attempts to predict the future have historically gone very poorly.

There. Your turn.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I will answer your two questions after you answer my two questions (so this won't happen).

I did answer your questions, did I not?

What is the connection between the Occupy movement and the Illuminati?

There's no connection. Occupiers are real, and the Illuminati went out of existence 200+ years ago.

What could the New World Order become in the future?

It doesn't exist, so how the fuck is anyone supposed to answer that?

[cmyk]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I am imagining a pyramid with the people at the base, higher up, the 192 governments of the world, higher up, the Illuminati, and, at the top, someone.

I am trying to imagine a pyramid with the people at the base, higher up, the 192 governments of the world, and, at the top, no one.

I thought at the top of the pyramid was a big, scary eye.

Or is it Dick Clark?

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I asked another poster three questions (as of now unanswered): Why aren't my views on conspiracies sane? Why is it sane to believe that politics, at the highest level, is between countries? Why is it not sane to believe that there are higher levels?

Your views are not sane because they lack all evidence and are completely unneccessary.

And no, politics at the highest level are not between countries, strictly speaking. Politics at all levels are between individuals. Some of these individuals have a great deal of control over governments, which have a great deal of control over countries. But in the end, politics are just another form of human interaction.

Originally Posted by Kozmik

And you were the only poster who realized the crux of the argument:

Most people here understood the crux of your argument, such as it was. I was the only one who bothered to put it in words simple enough for even you to understand.

Originally Posted by Kozmik

In The New York Times today, it was mentioned that there are 192 governments in the world. It is a fact that there are 192 governments in the world. The New York Times referred to this fact in the editorial, A Treaty on Conventional Arms. I argue that the Illuminati control the 192 governments of the world.

No you don't. You posit that the Illuminati control the 192 governments of the world. Arguing requires making an actual argument, which you have yet to do.

Frankly, Kozmik, you bore me. Your so-called "theories" are simplistic, asinine and completely unimaginative. You have taken the glorious complexity that is seven billion people interacting with each other in their own unique ways, and replaced it with a worldview of a mentally-challenged 8-year-old. Come back when you have something more interesting for us.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

What is the connection between the Occupy movement and the Illuminati?

They both think you're nuts.

Originally Posted by Kozmik

What could the New World Order become in the future?

The Old World Order?

But first it would have to be the Soon World Order, then the Current World Order, and then the Recent World Order. Maybe with a stop at the Not-So World Order.

[gamerunknown]

Disorder, disorder... would you like fries with dis order?

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

What could the New World Order become in the future?

The NWO already has the ability to time travel, so your question was answered before you even asked it. Look up "The Whig Party".

[Smeghead]

I've read a lot of stuff on the internet in my day that has made me stupider, but I genuinely believe that every page of this thread I read adds a month to the time it will take me to earn my PhD.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Smeghead

I've read a lot of stuff on the internet in my day that has made me stupider, but I genuinely believe that every page of this thread I read adds a month to the time it will take me to earn my PhD.

Speaking of which, I heard that Kozmik was a primary source for Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity.

[42fish]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Yes, and 1% of seventy million people is 700,000 and 1% of that is 7,000, and 1% of that is 70.

And 1% of that is 0.7, thereby proving that the dude controlling the Illuminati has had one leg and an arm below the elbow amputated.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Speaking of which, I heard that Kozmik was a primary source for Transgressing the Boundaries: Towards a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity.

Was that before or after he was accepted at banana?

[Smeghead]

Originally Posted by 42fish

And 1% of that is 0.7, thereby proving that the dude controlling the Illuminati has had one leg and an arm below the elbow amputated.

And the guy controlling HIM is 0.007, which, by sheer COINCIDENCE, is about 1.4 pounds of a 200 pound guy, which is more or less the size of his BRAIN! You can't make this stuff up, people.

[Chimera]

If we go down this rabit hole far enough, somewhere there is an intelligent photon that controls the universe.

[iiandyiiii]

Wow, after being out of town for a week, I just read this entire thread.

I think Kozmik is mentally ill. Not internet/SDMB mentally ill, but a human person with a mental illness. I hope someone close to him/her realizes it, and gets him/her help.

[Munch]

Ah, homeopathic logic. The more diluted (and deluded) it gets, the more unassailable it becomes.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by Munch

Ah, homeopathic logic. The more diluted (and deluded) it gets, the more unassailable it becomes.

So, the ocean controls the illuminati?

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by Alessan

a. Stuxnet was initiated and implemented by a small group of people acting more-or-less independently of national governments.

b. Therefore, everything is initiated and implemented by small groups of people acting more-or-less independently of national governments.

c. Therefore, everything is initiated and implemented by the same small group of people acting more-or-less independently of national governments.

The problem is, of course, that a. does not prove b., and b. does not prove c.

Alessan understood how I went from Stuxnet to the Illuminati. Alessan suggests that students at Mamram did Stuxnet; however, Alessan does not believe that the Illuminati exists.

Originally Posted by Kozmik

The Illuminati has more influence over China and India than Barack Obama. More influence over Joseph Kony being captured and killed than this YouTube video. More influence over Syria than WikiLeaks. More influence over Israel than all the Jews, Muslims and Christians combined. More influence over every single person on earth than anyone, except someone who controls the Illuminati.

I believe that the Illuminati exists.

Originally Posted by Alessan

That's the crux of it, isn't it? Kozmik learns that national leaders don't really control the world, and from that he reaches the conclusion that an even smaller group of people have to control it. What he seems to be ignoring is the infinitely more likely possibility - namely, that nobody controls the world.

I believe that national leaders don't really control the world.



Alessan seemed to disappear. Then you - LeeshaJoy - came in with a thought experiment: Imagine a world in which the Illuminati doesn't exist.

I imagined a world in which the Illuminati does exist.

I imagined a world in which the Illuminati doesn't exist.

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I am imagining a pyramid with the people at the base, higher up, the 192 governments of the world, higher up, the Illuminati, and, at the top, someone.

I am trying to imagine a pyramid with the people at the base, higher up, the 192 governments of the world, and, at the top, no one.

Then you ask the questions.

Originally Posted by LeeshaJoy

What is invalid about a model of world politics that doesn't have some big shadowy conspiracy pulling strings?

National leaders don't really control the world. I learned this in college. See Wikipedia article: Anarchy (international relations).

Originally Posted by LeeshaJoy

What aspects of world politics--what aspects of anything--require there to be an Illuminati?

Stuxnet.

Stuxnet was initiated and implemented by a small group of people acting more-or-less independently of any of the world's 192 governments. Stuxnet does not prove that the Illuminati exists; however, Stuxnet is evidence that the Illuminati exist. When I imagine a world in which the Illuminati doesn't exist, I think of anarchy (international relations). When I imagine a world in which the Illuminati does exist, I think of anarchy. The anarchists are naive. They see the people, they see the 192 governments of the world, yet they do not see the Illuminati, they do not see the All-Seeing Eye. I think of what the Illuminati thinks of anarchy - as propaganda for the propagandists. I think of what someone who controls the Illuminati thinks of anarchy.

September 11, 2001.

Originally Posted by The New York Times, July 10, 2012

In the decade after the Sept. 11 attacks, Americans largely viewed the Middle East and Islam through the lens of the terrorist threat. The Untied States exercised stark judgments, encapsulated by President George W. Bush's warning to the world nine days after the attacks: "Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

Originally Posted by The New York Times, July 10, 2012

Many marchers supported the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan. "We are supporting them because America is the world's No. 1 terrorist," said Saqlain Aslam, a 30-year-old from Lahore who is studying software technology.

The United States is not the world's No. 1 terrorist and none of the other 191 governments of the world is either. Furthermore, none of the 192 governments of the world was behind the Sept. 11 attacks in the way that one government - Japan - was behind the Pearl Harbor attacks. I believe that the Sept. 11 attacks were the ultimate example of anarchy.



Alessan returns!

Originally Posted by Alessan

And no, politics at the highest level are not between countries, strictly speaking. Politics at all levels are between individuals.

So you are not a realist:

The Realist theory of international relations asserts that states are the main power players in international politics.

My theory of international relations asserts that states are perceived to be the main power players in international politics.

Originally Posted by Alessan

I was the only one who bothered to put it in words simple enough for even you to understand.

Do you understand anarchy as applied to international relations? I think you do.

Originally Posted by Alessan

You posit that the Illuminati control the 192 governments of the world.

Ok. I posit that the Illuminati controls the 192 governments of the world and that someone controls the Illuminati.

Originally Posted by Alessan

You have taken the glorious complexity that is seven billion people interacting with each other in their own unique ways, and replaced it with a worldview of a mentally-challenged 8-year-old.

And, of course, you understand that complexity. I don't think so.

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

I think Kozmik is mentally ill. Not internet/SDMB mentally ill, but a human person with a mental illness.

Does Saqlain Aslam have a mental illness? Does Miriam Lawrence have a mental illness? I think that the mental illness insult is a way to discredit those who you don't agree with politically:

Originally Posted by Marley23

That's not an argument, it's a question, and it was a very stupid question. Are you sure you want to link yourself to that?

This is not a stupid question:

Originally Posted by Stink Fish Pot

Is it something psychological in us as Americans that don't want to see ourselves (and as an extension of ourselves, the goverment) as cheaters, no better than say the USSR, who were masters of propaganda and never told their people the truth?

I don't necessarily agree with Miriam Lawrence or Saqlain Aslam or Stink Fish Pot; however, they at least have the courage to express their views and ask the questions:

Originally Posted by Stink Fish Pot

Well, what IS the truth?

What you know today.

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Does Saqlain Aslam have a mental illness? Does Miriam Lawrence have a mental illness?

I don't know... but I haven't seen them make claims about the Illuminati, nor have they made a series of extremely cryptic and coy posts that defy any straight-forward understanding.

I think that the mental illness insult is a way to discredit those who you don't agree with politically:

Yes, it often is. But it's also a way to point out those who I think have an actual mental illness. I believe mental illness exists, and some people actually are mentally ill. From your posts, I think you might be. Or you're playing an elaborate joke.

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

I don't know... but I haven't seen them make claims about the Illuminati, nor have they made a series of extremely cryptic and coy posts that defy any straight-forward understanding.

Miriam Lawerence writes:

I have been shocked and appalled by the dramatic change in the American conscience post-9/11. Even assassination, once an outright abrogation of human rights, has now become an achievement on which to run for re-election.

Emphasis mine.


Saqlain Aslam, a 30-year-old from Lahore who is studying software technology, said:

We are supporting them because America is the world's No. 1 terrorist.

Emphasis mine.



I don't necessarily agree with them. However, they are examples of the different yet extreme views of many people in the world.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Stuxnet was initiated and implemented by a small group of people acting more-or-less independently of any of the world's 192 governments.

Mamram ... is the Israel Defense Forces' central computing system unit, providing data processing services for all arms and the general staff of the IDF. As of April 2010, Mamram is under the command of Colonel Noam Rozenfeld.

Sounds an awful lot like they're part of the Israeli military, which is run by the government. Of course this secret information is only available on Wikipedia.

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I believe that the Sept. 11 attacks were the ultimate example of anarchy.

This is stupid. In no way does a terrorist conspiracy prove anything about anarchy.

So you are not a realist

I have to admit this is a pretty hilarious question coming from someone who is delusional.

Does Miriam Lawrence have a mental illness?

Maybe. Can you link to 20 pages of her rambling about the Illuminati?

I think that the mental illness insult is a way to discredit those who you don't agree with politically

No, it's a way to describe your insane theory and logic, both of which suggest you have kind of a tenuous grip on reality and should be getting help. It's not about politics - and this isn't political anyway, it's a conspiracy theory.

This is not a stupid question

Yes, it's an asinine question. I'm not sure why you are quoting it all over again as if I hadn't just seen it and said it was stupid, but it is stupid. The premise that Americans are not suspicious and paranoid about their government is entirely wrong. Something like 50 percent of them think "government is the problem" and a lot of those think the government is trying to murder them with a health care bill, and a lot of the other 50 percent think the government is trying to kill them with poisons and genetically modified food.

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by Marley23

Of course this secret information is only available on Wikipedia.

Also on WikiLeaks..

Originally Posted by Marley23

This is stupid. In no way does a terrorist conspiracy prove anything about anarchy.

Jean Baudrillard disagreed with you.

[Paranoid Randroid]

Originally Posted by Honest Bob/Dr Gene Ray, Cubic and Wisest Human

You’ve been educated stupid
And are too dumb to know it
Or maybe just too evil to care

Ignorance of the time cube all-seeing eye is a curse upon humanity
The mind must see a time cube an Illuminati that eyes cannot comprehend

No man on earth has no belly button, it proves that every believer on earth is a liar!

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Jean Baudrillard disagreed with you.

And why am I supposed to care? You're pulling that "I'm being all coy and nonresponsive" shit again.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Also on WikiLeaks..

Jean Baudrillard disagreed with you.

For balance, here's an except from a review by Denis Dutton of an anthology of Baudrillard's writings written by Mark Poster:

Originally Posted by Denis Dutton

Baudrillard ignores contrary evidence for his claims, which are expressed in a style characterized by Poster as “hyperbolic and declarative, often lacking in sustained, systematic analysis when it is appropriate.” Baudrillard extrapolates from limited areas of experience, such as television images, “as if nothing else in society mattered.” Poster regrets that Baudrillard “fails to define his major terms,” and that he “totalizes” his claims without qualification or limitation.

To this list of charges I would add only that, when it isn’t unintelligible, almost everything Baudrillard says is either trite or somehow — vaguely or baldly — false.

That description of Baudrillard reminds me so much of someone else... damn, who am I thinking of?

[cmyk]

blink184? Or... damn, what's his name?

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Miriam Lawerence writes:


Quote:
I have been shocked and appalled by the dramatic change in the American conscience post-9/11. Even assassination, once an outright abrogation of human rights, has now become an achievement on which to run for re-election.

Saqlain Aslam, a 30-year-old from Lahore who is studying software technology, said:

Quote:
We are supporting them because America is the world's No. 1 terrorist.

I don't necessarily agree with them. However, they are examples of the different yet extreme views of many people in the world.

The first quote is a pretty obvious statement of fact- yes, American politicians run on killing terrorists.

The second quote is pure opinion- and one that I disagree with- but I don't think it's mentally ill.

You, on the other hand, are claiming the existence of a secret organization that runs the world. Like David Icke (how do you feel about reptilian aliens, by the way?). And you continue to make cryptic, coy statements that don't make any sense- but you act as if they're deeply substantive.

I think you may be mentally ill. Really.

[buckgully]

Can I ask a serious question?

You know how in movies when they want to show that a person has gone completely over the edge paranoid they show them in a room with newspaper clippings and photographs going floor to ceiling (sometimes on the ceiling too) entwined with a spiderweb of red string going from pushpin to pushpin? And the other characters all gasp, because it's clear that the person is completely off their rocker and somehow drawing connections between totally unrelated events as if there's some kind of pattern, and is so obsessive about it that they've obviously put countless hours arranging and rearranging their whole giant string diagram instead of, you know, doing sane stuff like cross stitch or learning how to play guitar?

With that context set up, I guess my question is:
Where do you buy red string?

[cmyk]

You're getting closer. *intense, knowing stare and Cheshire grin*

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Does Saqlain Aslam have a mental illness? Does Miriam Lawrence have a mental illness?

They laughed at Galileo! They laughed at Columbus! They laughed at Bozo the Clown!

[Marley23]

I hope Miriam Lawrence never Googles herself and finds this thread. "Does this guy think I'm part of this Illuminati thing? What the fuck?!?"

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by cmyk

blink184? Or... damn, what's his name?

I had someone more local in mind, but now that you mention it...

[cmyk]

Originally Posted by buckgully

With that context set up, I guess my question is:
Where do you buy red string?

at Meds, Batshit and Beyond. Right next to the Home Despot.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I hope Miriam Lawrence never Googles herself and finds this thread. "Does this guy think I'm part of this Illuminati thing? What the fuck?!?"

There's always a risk when you participate online. If I could do it all over again, I'd go with a pseudonym instead of my real name, Vinyl Turnip.

[cmyk]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

I had someone more local in mind, but now that you mention it...

Yeh, birds of a feather and all that.

How many full moons are out right now, two... three?

[Kimballkid]

Kozmik, you're just fucking with us aren't you? Nobody could be this batshit insane.

[42fish]

Originally Posted by Marley23

You're pulling that "I'm being all coy and nonresponsive" shit again.

It's part of the cycle. Give him a day and he'll be back to copious non-sequitors.

[Capt Kirk]

Some how i am sure that there is an area of Michigan that is seriously short of red crayons.

CAPT

[Kozmik]

I believe that there are 192 governments in the world.

I believe that national leaders don't really control the world.

I believe that Stuxnet was initiated and implemented by a small group of people acting more-or-less independently of any of the world's 192 governments.

I believe that none of the 192 governments of the world was behind the Sept. 11 attacks.

I believe that one government - Japan - was behind the Pearl Harbor attacks.

I believe that the Illuminati exists.

I believe that Jean Baudrillard more or less describes my political views.

My theory of international relations asserts that states are perceived to be the main power players in international politics.

I posit that the Illuminati control the 192 governments of the world and that someone controls the Illuminati.

I argue that the Illuminati has more influence over China and India than Barack Obama. More influence over Joseph Kony being captured and killed than this YouTube video. More influence over Syria than WikiLeaks. More influence over Israel than all the Jews, Muslims and Christians combined. More influence over every single person on earth than anyone, except someone who controls the Illuminati.

I know that some will criticize my beliefs even though my beliefs are based on facts.

[iiandyiiii]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I believe that there are 192 governments in the world.

I believe that national leaders don't really control the world.

I believe that Stuxnet was initiated and implemented by a small group of people acting more-or-less independently of any of the world's 192 governments.

I believe that none of the 192 governments of the world was behind the Sept. 11 attacks.

I believe that one government - Japan - was behind the Pearl Harbor attacks.

I believe that the Illuminati exists.

I believe that Jean Baudrillard more or less describes my political views.

My theory of international relations asserts that states are perceived to be the main power players in international politics.

I posit that the Illuminati control the 192 governments of the world and that someone controls the Illuminati.

I argue that the Illuminati has more influence over China and India than Barack Obama. More influence over Joseph Kony being captured and killed than this YouTube video. More influence over Syria than WikiLeaks. More influence over Israel than all the Jews, Muslims and Christians combined. More influence over every single person on earth than anyone, except someone who controls the Illuminati.

I know that some will criticize my beliefs even though my beliefs are based on facts.

Kozmik- I sense that you are not telling us everything. What do you believe about the Illuminati? Have you ascertained (or come to believe) any particular characteristics of their makeup? Do you suspect anyone in particular of membership? And do you believe anything in particular about whoever it is that controls the Illuminati?

[Marley23]

I believe those are a series of unconnected assertions supported by nothing other than the fact that you've posted about them earlier in this thread, and they don't come anywhere close to a logical, sane reason to believe in the things you're saying. And I believe you should annoy a psychiatrist or a psychologist with this nonsense instead of annoying the internet because that might actually get you something worthwhile- and because if you were in the room with another human being you wouldn't be able to get away with these non-answers and these lame attempts to keep people in suspense.

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by iiandyiiii

Kozmik- I sense that you are not telling us everything.

What makes you think that?

[Capt Kirk]

For your arelink
Just how in the hell is a treaty which is being negotiated in the UN, openly and won't go into force until every participating country signs it, a conspiracy? What the fucking hell do you mean? There is no invisible hand here, diplomacy, have you heard of it?

CAPT

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by Marley23

and they don't come anywhere close to a logical, sane reason to believe in the things you're saying

I listed seven beliefs in this post. Let's look at each belief and you tell me what is wrong.

#1 I believe that there are 192 governments in the world.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I listed seven beliefs in this post. Let's look at each belief and you tell me what is wrong.

#1 I believe that there are 192 governments in the world.

Might as well skip to "I believe the Illuminati exists," since it's not supported by any of the prior statements anyway, regardless of whether they're accurate or not.

Here, I'll do one:

1) I believe that water is a molecule composed of one oxygen and two hydrogen atoms.

2) I believe that the current scientific estimate of the age of the Earth is 4.54 billion years.

3) I believe that a movie titled The Dark Knight Rises, starring Christian Bale as Bruce Wayne/Batman, will be released later this month to great commercial success.

4) I believe that the Federal Reserve is controlled by Zionist leprechauns and a cuneiform-based supercomputer powered by phlogiston.

I know some will criticize my beliefs even though they are based on facts.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I listed seven beliefs in this post. Let's look at each belief and you tell me what is wrong.

Have I not stated my views on the Illuminati and Conspiracy Theories clearly at any time in this thread and the long thread that came before this Pitting? I think #2 is not a meaningful statement and I think I already explained why, I think #3 may be wrong, and #6 is the one that's batshit crazy.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I believe that there are 192 governments in the world.

So what?

I believe that national leaders don't really control the world.

Of course they don't. Governments are methods of ruling nations, not controlling the world. There are individual actors, non-governmental groups, natural disasters, climate change, industries, etc. You seem to think this implies that someone controls the world, but you haven't produced anything to support that idea.

I believe that Stuxnet was initiated and implemented by a small group of people acting more-or-less independently of any of the world's 192 governments.

Again, so what? I think it's unlikely that you are right, but lots of important things occur at the instigation of non-governmental actions.

I believe that none of the 192 governments of the world was behind the Sept. 11 attacks.

Probably true, but irrelevant. No government was behind the Protestant Reformation, but it was a major event.

I believe that one government - Japan - was behind the Pearl Harbor attacks.

Irrelevant.

I believe that the Illuminati exists.

Completely unsupported view, with significant evidence to the contrary. You could also believe in the Invisible Pink Unicorn and we'd give it the same weight as your blithering about the Illuminati.

I posit that the Illuminati control the 192 governments of the world and that someone controls the Illuminati.

I argue that the Illuminati has more influence over China and India than Barack Obama. More influence over Joseph Kony being captured and killed than this YouTube video. More influence over Syria than WikiLeaks. More influence over Israel than all the Jews, Muslims and Christians combined. More influence over every single person on earth than anyone, except someone who controls the Illuminati.

And you'd be wrong. Actually, this isn't based on enough logic to be wrong; you're just odd.

[XT]

I pit the derisive, condenscending, anti-conspiriacy propagandists

So, basically, you are pitting the vast majority of people who make up this board. How's that working out for you so far?

(I haven't slogged through the whole thread yet, but let me guess...it's not working out well thus far. Probably no better than the GD thread that I presume inspired this)

-XT

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

I believe that Jean Baudrillard more or less describes my political views.

You may think so. But I wonder if Jean Baudrillard would agree?

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by XT

I haven't slogged through the whole thread yet, but let me guess...it's not working out well thus far.

Actually, my guess is that it's going exactly as planned. I'm going with troll rather than moron, so I should probably stop engaging.

[XT]

I don't know...s/he seemed pretty nutty in the original GD thread, IIRC. CTers can be really fixated and focused on their bat-shit crazy pet theories. That said, there really isn't any point in engaging this poster, since there is absolutely no chance of changing his or her mind on this subject...and there are diminishing returns in making them look like idiots, as I've found in the countless 9/11 Truther threads on this board. You just get burned out, and then some new idiot comes in with an incredible video you just HAVE to see....!!

-XT