If "Paki" is acceptable to use then what other slurs are? Nigger? Spic? Homo? Jap?

[Ibn Warraq]

A couple of weeks ago there was a bit of a flare up in one of the Israel threads when a poster decided to add this bit of gasoline to the fire.

Strange how even the educated people are blinded by islam. I was watching a youtube video showing policemen shooting dead a petty thief in karachi, a comment from a paki read - they shouldn't have killed him. They should have chopped his hands off as per sharia.

For those unaware, Paki is a racial slur used against not just Pakistanis but South Asians, particularly Muslim South Asians and referring to a Pakistani or a South Asian Muslim as "Paki" is comparable to calling a black person a "nigger".

I was under the impression that it was against board policy to use racial slurs outside of the pit and reported it expected the mods to issue a warning or at least instruct Truthseeker2 to refrain from using racial slurs.

However, the only thing the mods did was to declare there would be no further discussion as to whether or not "Paki" was a racial slur.

I decided to wait awhile to see if there would be further action.

Since there hasn't been, they seem to have tacitly ruled that it is considered acceptable to use the term "Paki" to refer to Pakistanis, though, I assume, not to refer to Pakistani, Muslim, or South Asian posters on SDMB outside of the pit.

Ok, in that case, I'd like to know what other bigoted slurs are considered acceptable for use.

If it's okay to complain about a "paki" poster on youtube is it okay to complain about a comment made by a "nigger", a "spic", a "homo", or a "Jap"?

Similarly, while I imagine that it would be unacceptable to refer to another poster as a nigger or a paki, would it be okay to refer to Barack Obama as a "nigger", Steven Speilberg as a "hebe", Manny Ramirez as a "spic", or Rupaul as a "tranny"?

I'll be honest and say that if I and other Muslim and South Asian posters have to put up with people making references to "pakis" then what's good for the goose is good for the gander and it should be okay to use other racial slurs, though I'd rather the mods simply reconsider their decision, make it clear that racial slurs are not to be used outside the pit and mod note Truthseeker's post.

[Ibn Warraq]

Apologies for not including a link.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...9&postcount=18

Also the OP came across as a bit more vindictive and accusatory than I meant.

I apologize both to the mods who may have felt, understandably, insulted.

There's difference between disagreeing with a decision(which I do) and feeling the people were tolerating racism or being insensitive to Muslim(which I don't).

[Candyman74]

You're correct that the word "paki" is a racist term similar to those others you mention, I don't know how widespread it is, though. Here in the UK it's essentially culturally equivalent to "nigger" in the US.

[Little Nemo]

This might be a reflection of the American predominance of the board's administration. Paki is a very uncommon word in the United States and people here probably don't appreciate its full impact.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Candyman74

You're correct that the word "paki" is a racist term similar to those others you mention, I don't know how widespread it is, though. Here in the UK it's essentially culturally equivalent to "nigger" in the US.

I know. My father was called it in the UK.

[Gagundathar]

I didn't know that the word was offensive, though I would not have used it in conversation.
I tend to not use short terms for ethnic groups primarily because I am never certain which ones are acceptable and which aren't. Some people think the word 'Jew' is opprobrious. I don't know of any Jewish people who think this, but I have been corrected before by others for using that word.

Some of these words are downright obscure to me. I swear I never heard the derogatory terms for a person of Italian descent growing up in Atlanta, Georgia back in the middle of the 20th century. Likewise, the commonly used offensive terms used for Latinos. Now, of course, the most commonly used word for Americans of primarily African descent made up for all of that.

Thanks for bringing this up. I have been spared the embarrassment of using yet another offensive word to describe a group of people.

[elmwood]

Originally Posted by Gagundathar

Some people think the word 'Jew' is opprobrious. I don't know of any Jewish people who think this, but I have been corrected before by others for using that word.

Generally, "Jew" as a noun to describe a person who practices Judaism is fine. "Jew" as an adjective isn't.

"Look at all those Jews!" - fine.

"Look at all those Jews going into that big 'ol Jew building for that Jew holiday!" - uhhh ... no.

Most Jews won't get offended by "Jew's harp", "Wandering Jew plant", and the like.

[Little Nemo]

I think Gagundathar's point was that he wasn't aware Paki was a derogatory term. I can see an American thinking it's just a ordinary demonym like Afghan or Kurd.

[hajario]

I knew that it was an unacceptable slur but most Americans wouldn't. The word is almost never used here in any context. This is more an instance of ignorance rather than neglect.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by hajario

I knew that it was an unacceptable slur but most Americans wouldn't. The word is almost never used here in any context. This is more an instance of ignorance rather than neglect.

Truthseeker2 isn't an American but is Indian and I would find it preposterous considering the relations between India and Pakistan that he was unaware that it was a racial slur.

Beyond that, if the mods are going to decide that it's okay to refer to "Pakis" because it's a shortened version of "Pakistani" then by that logic they'd have to say it's perfectly okay to refer to "Spics"(short for Hispanic) "Homos"(short for homosexual), tranny(short for transexual) and "Japs"(short for Japanese).

Anyway hopefully some mods can explain whether or not racial and ethnic slurs are allowed to be used and if they're not, why "paki" is considered okay and if so what other slurs are considered acceptable.

[Northern Piper]

posting from Canada, I'm surprised to hear that people in the US aren't aware of the derogatory nature of the term. difference in Commonwealth v. US vocabulary, I guess.

Plus, I'm also surprised at the lack of awareness on these boards, given the heart-burning that occurred when it was proposed to re-name the DOMEBO boards the Pachy (short for pachyderm) boards a few years ago...

[Alessan]

Originally Posted by elmwood

Generally, "Jew" as a noun to describe a person who practices Judaism is fine. "Jew" as an adjective isn't.

And "Jew" as a verb definitely isn't.

[hajario]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Truthseeker2 isn't an American but is Indian and I would find it preposterous considering the relations between India and Pakistan that he was unaware that it was a racial slur.

Beyond that, if the mods are going to decide that it's okay to refer to "Pakis" because it's a shortened version of "Pakistani" then by that logic they'd have to say it's perfectly okay to refer to "Spics"(short for Hispanic) "Homos"(short for homosexual), tranny(short for transexual) and "Japs"(short for Japanese).

Anyway hopefully some mods can explain whether or not racial and ethnic slurs are allowed to be used and if they're not, why "paki" is considered okay and if so what other slurs are considered acceptable.

I didn't even read the linked thread and had no opinion on it. I was merely trying to explain that the Moderators may not have been aware that the word is a slur. I can see that the guy who made the post certainly did.

[Gagundathar]

'Jew' as a verb! That's weird. Oh, but I guess you mean the same kind of thing some English people do when they use the word 'Welsh' as a verb.

Danggit, it is hard to keep track of all of these words!
Perhaps we should just refer to each other by our chosen names.
Like Ibn Warraq, Northern Piper and Alessan.

[Gagundathar]

Yes, given the context, it is quite clear that the poster referred to by the OP was using the word in a dismissive and derogatory manner.
'Pakistani' is the correct usage for a citizen of Pakistan, is it not?

[Marley23]

At least once in the past I've instructed posters not to use "Paki." The user had already apologized and said he was not trying to be derogatory (nevermind that this whole thing was more than two weeks ago), so just tried to keep the thread on track.

[AK84]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Truthseeker2 isn't an American but is Indian and I would find it preposterous considering the relations between India and Pakistan that he was unaware that it was a racial slur.

Beyond that, if the mods are going to decide that it's okay to refer to "Pakis" because it's a shortened version of "Pakistani" then by that logic they'd have to say it's perfectly okay to refer to "Spics"(short for Hispanic) "Homos"(short for homosexual), tranny(short for transexual) and "Japs"(short for Japanese).

Anyway hopefully some mods can explain whether or not racial and ethnic slurs are allowed to be used and if they're not, why "paki" is considered okay and if so what other slurs are considered acceptable.

I take it that PakiPop will be verboten as well? Going by your theory at least?

Or Pakirecipes? Or PakiMag

Look, I more than anyone am aware that the moderating standards of this board are.........rather provincial lets say. That is alright, this is a private entity and it can have whatever standards that it wants. But, to get hot and bothered about a term which is only derogatory in certain countries, seems weird to me.

[florez]

Originally Posted by AK84

. But, to get hot and bothered about a term which is only derogatory in certain countries, seems weird to me.

Ideally this board is open to many people from many different countries, so if a term is derogatory in certain countries I hope that you are not suggesting that people from those countries be excluded from this board, or just put up with what they would consider to be a slur.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by AK84

I take it that PakiPop will be verboten as well? Going by your theory at least?

Or Pakirecipes? Or PakiMag.

No, just as I don't teachers should refuse to teach Lord of the Flies, The Nigger of Narcissus, or The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn or that people shouldn't listen to Chris Rock or Jay-Z because of the use of the term "nigger."

[AK84]

Originally Posted by florez

Ideally this board is open to many people from many different countries, so if a term is derogatory in certain countries I hope that you are not suggesting that people from those countries be excluded from this board, or just put up with what they would consider to be a slur.

If seriously try to accommodate every possible view you will limit the board to discussing safe things. Like the fact that heart attacks are bad. Or childbirth is painful. And that is about it.

[Ibn Warraq]

Originally Posted by Marley23

At least once in the past I've instructed posters not to use "Paki." The user had already apologized and said he was not trying to be derogatory (nevermind that this whole thing was more than two weeks ago), so just tried to keep the thread on track.

I'm glad to hear then that Paki is a word we're not supposed to use. Sorry for my mistake.

That said, a few things. I already explained why I waited, because I thought I should give the mods a chance to make a determination and not to fan any flames. Second, the poster did not apologize. He merely said, rather unconvincingly, that he was using the term "paki" as short for Pakistani and not to be derogatory.

Now, I don't mean this next question to be accusatory or insulting, but by the logic of what you're saying if a poster made a reference to a "Spic", a "Homo" or a "Hebe" and then afterwards, when called, said they were only using the shortened versions of "Hispanic", "homosexual" or "Hebrew" that you would decide to merely "keep the thread on track" and not issue a warning or note for using those terms.

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't and would disagree with another moderator who decide to let the slurs go.

That is not meant to suggest BTW that you are somehow insensitive to certain groups merely to show that I think you should have made a comment that the term was unacceptable then because I'm pretty sure you would have had truthseeker2 refered to the YouTube commenter as a "spic" or a "homo".

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

He merely said, rather unconvincingly, that he was using the term "paki" as short for Pakistani and not to be derogatory.

You're right, it's not an apology. I didn't find his explanation particularly convincing either, but it's true that "Paki" is offensive to some people and looks like an unobjectionable shortening of the name of a country to other people. Since truthseeker2 said he did not intend offense and didn't press the issue, I was willing to let it go in that case.

[boomerwang]

JSYK, in Australia (especially in cricket season when Pakistan are playing), I've always heard ''paki'' as an affectionate term... so I used this term,referring to the Pakistani team, discussing cricket with Americans, a Canadian, and an Irishman. They all recoiled in horror, and explained what this term means to Pakistanis. So I don't say it any more...

[Mangetout]

Originally Posted by AK84

If seriously try to accommodate every possible view you will limit the board to discussing safe things. Like the fact that heart attacks are bad. Or childbirth is painful. And that is about it.

Does the SDMB wish to style itself as an intelligent, international community, or an insular provincialist American backwater?

Nobody has yet suggested that we try to accommodate every possible view, however, this one in particular is probably important enough to warrant concern. If the SDMB is about fighting ignorance, it should not itself resolve to remain ignorant on topics such as this.

[Boyo Jim]

I agree with the OP. I'm an American and I understand that it is a derogatory term, and the moderators should give a note to folks who use it like they do to anyone else using racial or ethnic slurs.

Can't we all agree to focus our insults on the fat, ugly and stupid?

[Princhester]

Aussie is OK with me.

I should add that I just find it (a) weird and (b) counterproductive and self insulting to accept that an essentially descriptive term of oneself is an insult to you. Unless you accept that it is insulting to suggest that one is from Pakistan, then what exactly is the problem? Why the self hate? People wouldn't be able to use the term "Paki" as an insult if people from Pakistan didn't blanche when the term was used. The correct response is to ignore the attempted slur as being pathetic and ineffective, not internalise it.

[bldysabba]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Truthseeker2 isn't an American but is Indian and I would find it preposterous considering the relations between India and Pakistan that he was unaware that it was a racial slur.

That's pretty preposterous reasoning there. You think Indians should be aware that Paki is a racial slur in the UK because relations between the two countries are poor? How exactly does that work? Do you think Indians go around trying to find out what names to call Pakistanis? And that they'd borrow an anaemic term that white people can use to reference them as much as it references Pakistanis?

In India, Paki is often used, as Truthseeker2 has explained already, as a shortening of the term Pakistani. It is not, in and of itself, derogatory. It's the equivalent of Aussie for Australian. Of course, just as referencing their neighbours may carry some additional meaning for a New Zealander, for many Indians 'Paki' is said with a degree of derision. No more or no less than that same Indian would say Pakistani though. And I fail to see why cultural relativism demands neutral usage of the word by a billion people(of more or less the same 'race') should bow to your ability to take offence where none is intended.

[AK84]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

Does the SDMB wish to style itself as an intelligent, international community, or an insular provincialist American backwater?

Nobody has yet suggested that we try to accommodate every possible view, however, this one in particular is probably important enough to warrant concern. If the SDMB is about fighting ignorance, it should not itself resolve to remain ignorant on topics such as this.

Where here is some ignorance fought for your benefit. I am Pakistani. Born, raised and live in the great Federation of Pakistan. I don't find it insulting and neither does anyone I know. Most people are dimly aware that it is sometimes used as an insult in the UK, and in the UK if someone calls you that, you might take insult, as insult is meant. But here? No way. Shut down half the Pakistani websites.

It is the height of small mindedness to decide for yourself what another group is supposed to find insulting, like boomerwangs friends apparently. So get of your high horse and stop trying to feel superior, because you are not.

[AK84]

Originally Posted by bldysabba

That's pretty preposterous reasoning there. You think Indians should be aware that Paki is a racial slur in the UK because relations between the two countries are poor? How exactly does that work? Do you think Indians go around trying to find out what names to call Pakistanis? And that they'd borrow an anaemic term that white people can use to reference them as much as it references Pakistanis?

In India, Paki is often used, as Truthseeker2 has explained already, as a shortening of the term Pakistani. It is not, in and of itself, derogatory. It's the equivalent of Aussie for Australian. Of course, just as referencing their neighbours may carry some additional meaning for a New Zealander, for many Indians 'Paki' is said with a degree of derision. No more or no less than that same Indian would say Pakistani though. And I fail to see why cultural relativism demands neutral usage of the word by a billion people(of more or less the same 'race') should bow to your ability to take offence where none is intended.

I cannot believe I am going to say this, but well said.....lalay!!!

[bldysabba]

Originally Posted by florez

Ideally this board is open to many people from many different countries, so if a term is derogatory in certain countries I hope that you are not suggesting that people from those countries be excluded from this board, or just put up with what they would consider to be a slur.

Originally Posted by Mangetout

Does the SDMB wish to style itself as an intelligent, international community, or an insular provincialist American backwater?

Nobody has yet suggested that we try to accommodate every possible view, however, this one in particular is probably important enough to warrant concern. If the SDMB is about fighting ignorance, it should not itself resolve to remain ignorant on topics such as this.

I wonder if either of you know you're attempting to convince a Pakistani that a shortened form of his country's name is offensive and should be verboten on these boards. Flip this around for an instant. If Indians started using 'Aussie' as an insult for Australian immigrants to India(were such an animal to exist), would you then insist that all usage of the word 'Aussie' be considered a racial slur, including when used by New Zealanders to refer to their neighbours? Or would you rather that Indians not use the word in an offensive manner, and the rest of the world rightfully ignore the usage that is incorrect?

If anything, I find it offensive that primacy is given to the usage adopted by a bunch of boorish white people over what would otherwise be a fairly natural usage.

ETA: Ninja'd by AK84

[bldysabba]

Originally Posted by AK84

I cannot believe I am going to say this, but well said.....lalay!!!

Heh, I know, a somewhat unusual situation eh?

[Loach]

Originally Posted by Ibn Warraq

Beyond that, if the mods are going to decide that it's okay to refer to "Pakis" because it's a shortened version of "Pakistani" then by that logic they'd have to say it's perfectly okay to refer to "Spics"(short for Hispanic) "Homos"(short for homosexual), tranny(short for transexual) and "Japs"(short for Japanese).

That would help me out considerably. I'm a crappy typist.

[Anaamika]

Paki is a slur and it is offensive.

[Farmer Jane]

I can't believe anyone would really type "Paki" and not think it's an insult.

[Fear Itself]

What is the history of this slur? I have only become aware of it in the last year or two.

[Northern Piper]

Use as a slur dates back to the 1960s, according to wiki:

Usage notes

The abbreviation Paki acquired offensive connotations in the 1960s when used by British tabloids to refer to subjects of former colony states in a derogatory and racist manner. In modern British usage "Paki" is typically used in a derogatory way as a label for all South Asians, including Indians, Afghans and Bangladeshis. To a lesser extent, the term has been applied as a racial slur towards Arabs and other Middle Eastern-looking groups who may resemble South Asians. During the 60's many emigrants were also dubbed as "black" to further segregrate them from the white community. Some would say such a division still exists in parts of England.

In recent times there has been a trend by second and third-generation British Pakistanis to reclaim the word, such that it can be used within the young British Pakistani community but not by outsiders, including Indians and Bangladeshis.

[elmwood]

Originally Posted by Northern Piper

posting from Canada, I'm surprised to hear that people in the US aren't aware of the derogatory nature of the term. difference in Commonwealth v. US vocabulary, I guess..

A lot of us are aware of it. It's just that there's only a very small Pakistani community in the US, compared to the large and increasingly prominent Indian-American population. The ratio of Pakistanis to Indians in Commonwealth countries seems greater than in the US.

From what little I understand, in Australian English such shortened names aren't seen as offensive as they are in the UK, although "Abo" is increasingly seen as the equivalent of the n-word.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Is there an abbreviated/colloquial term for "Pakistani" that isn't considered offensive? E.g. Brit, Aussie...

As a generally lazy person, I regret that so many perfectly good short forms are rendered off-limits by their history of being said with a sneer. (Or in the case of "Jap," by the fact that we went to war with them.)

[Fear Itself]

I wonder if it is a handicap for peace activist Paki Wieland

Valley peace activist Paki Wieland is en route to Kabul, Afghanistan, where she will work with a local non-governmental organization and attempt to get a true picture of this society’s challenges.

[John Mace]

Can we use "Pachy" for elephants?

Seriously, folks, we've done this before. "Paki" is offensive in lots of places, so it's best not to use it here.

[Steophan]

The problem with "paki" in British English is it's not used to refer to Pakistanis, it's used to refer to all people of subcontinental origin. Like all slurs (in British and Australian English, anyway), it can be used affectionately, but generally it's an unacceptable term here.

[The Flying Dutchman]

To answer the question, I can think of Canucks, Poles, Newfies, Brits, Ruskies, Turks, Slovaks, Aussies, Kiwis etc.

Merkins? Maybe not.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Yanks, maybe?

I'm pretty sure "Poles," "Turks," and "Slovaks" aren't even nicknames, let alone slurs.

[Marley23]

Even though most of our users are based in the U.S., we have plenty of non-U.S. posters and this kind of problem comes up from time to time. Whose standard do we use? Like I said in my first post, I have moderated people for using "Paki" in a derogatory fashion and I'll continue to do so when I think it's necessary. But in the case of terms that have multiple connotations we have to consider the possibility that people who are using them are not deliberately being offensive. That's not the case with most of the slurs listed in the thread title. We've had discussions like this about "Jap," too - we had another one recently - and I also moderate people for using that one if they're using it as a slur against Japanese people (as opposed to commenting on WWII-era attitudes, for example).

[blabber]

Well l find the use of the word offensive as to me it's the same as using the word " nigger or Jap '. Just my opinion though.

[Anaamika]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

Is there an abbreviated/colloquial term for "Pakistani" that isn't considered offensive? E.g. Brit, Aussie...

As a generally lazy person, I regret that so many perfectly good short forms are rendered off-limits by their history of being said with a sneer. (Or in the case of "Jap," by the fact that we went to war with them.)

Just say Pakistani and don't be lazy.

I had a good friend of mine refer to a "Happy Paki" store with no trace of any idea it might be offensive. I'm not even Pakistani but good heavens.

[Scholar Beardpig]

I've always found this very strange, because Pakistan is the only -stan country (besides Afghanistan, but that's another story) with a 'made-up name.' That is to say, take Kazakhstan. It's the country of the Kazakhs; there are people called Kazakhs, and they're Kazakhs regardless of their citizenship. Conversely, I can go to Kazakhstan and get a citizenship; I'd be a Kazakhstani but not a Kazakh. It's the same with the other central Asian -stans - there are people called the Turkmen, some of whom live in Turkmenistan, and so forth.

But there is (excuse my language) no tribe of the Pakis. Rather, Pakistan is Persian for 'the Pure Place.' It's also a clever little acronym to describe the 5 provinces it would cover - Punjab, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Sindh, and Baluchistan. No one ethnic group can claim to own Pakistan the way that the Kazakhs can claim to own Kazakhstan - it was designed, rather, as a common homeland for all the Muslims who had been subject to British Imperialism.

I don't know enough about Pakistan to speculate about what this means vv. nascent ethnic and nationalist feelings, but I can imagine that they'd be very, very complicated. (If a Muslim Punjabi left India in the 30s; are they a Pakistani?)

[Revtim]

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

I can't believe anyone would really type "Paki" and not think it's an insult.

Well, you should. As has been explained, it's not commonly used as a slur in some places, like the USA for example.

[Revtim]

If it comes to a vote, then I vote yes, all slurs should be acceptable.

Your friendly neighborhood dago wop guinea fat fuck,
Revtim

[Left Hand of Dorkness]

Originally Posted by blabber

Well l find the use of the word offensive as to me it's the same as using the word " nigger or Jap '. Just my opinion though.

Oh, smurf off.