Taliban Stupid and Just Don't Care?

[Gorsnak]

If the godless heathens disapprove, you must be doing something right.

[Larry Mudd]

Taliban stupid and just don't care, hey!
Daylight come and me wan go home.

[Machine Elf]

Originally Posted by John Mace

They're kind of like the honey badger.

They are indeed crazy and nasty-ass.

[gamerunknown]

Originally Posted by al27052

Eventually, our weaponry will get so advanced that we can surgically kill/capture every commander they have, faster than they can make new commanders.

I'm not sure why you're so enthusiastic about technology which'd let the US military accurately kill whichever targets it wants. No doubt, few tears will be shed for taliban commanders, but the US has a more chequered history than that. Not to mention, such technology would probably end up in the hands of people with similar qualms about legislating sexual morality, the Saudis.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

How so?

The idea that drones are the best weapon for the U.S. but also turn people against the war. I think the truth is probably more nuanced than that.

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

From what I understand that just helps them look more "heroic"

Yeah, you're right. When the Taliban say they'll stop polio vaccinations unless the U.S. calls of the drone strikes (which you just said don't work and are great for the Taliban), everyone believes them. Even the people with polio and the parents of children at risk for polio.

[Chimera]

You see, if we were evil, we'd tell them that as long as they stop polio vaccines, our drones will disperse the polio virus in the area.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Chimera

You see, if we were evil, we'd tell them that as long as they stop polio vaccines, our drones will disperse the polio virus in the area.

Cool.

[Sampiro]

The Taliban deliberately went out of their way to kill more than 3,000 innocent civilians and provoke a war with the strongest military superpower on Earth (and a former ally). I don't think being universally hated is something they're afraid of.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

The Taliban deliberately went out of their way to kill more than 3,000 innocent civilians and provoke a war with the strongest military superpower on Earth (and a former ally). I don't think being universally hated is something they're afraid of.

Al Qaeda did that. Not the Taliban. They're different groups.

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

Al Qaeda did that. Not the Taliban. They're different groups.

I know it's the Pit, but be easy on him.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Marley23

When the Taliban say they'll stop polio vaccinations unless the U.S. calls of the drone strikes (which you just said don't work and are great for the Taliban), everyone believes them. Even the people with polio and the parents of children at risk for polio.

Quite possibly yes. Our credibility is pretty much zero there.

[RedFury]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

The Taliban deliberately went out of their way to kill more than 3,000 innocent civilians and provoke a war with the strongest military superpower on Earth (and a former ally). I don't think being universally hated is something they're afraid of.

WTF? And you've been here for ten years?

[al27052]

Originally Posted by gamerunknown

I'm not sure why you're so enthusiastic about technology which'd let the US military accurately kill whichever targets it wants. No doubt, few tears will be shed for taliban commanders, but the US has a more chequered history than that. Not to mention, such technology would probably end up in the hands of people with similar qualms about legislating sexual morality, the Saudis.

That's two different points. First, it's not enthusiasm, exactly. I think it would be an interesting world where we had to actually sit down at the table and negotiate with these people long-term, instead of just waiting on better weaponry. However, that's unlikely to really happen, because our tech gets better, while theirs stays the same.

As far as military tech ending up in the wrong hands, we've been burned before, and are more circumspect about it now. You do make a good point, though. I think it is a valid concern, quite possibly.

[Sampiro]

Originally Posted by Captain Amazing

Al Qaeda did that. Not the Taliban. They're different groups.

True, a synaptic misfire, but also true: the Taliban sheltered al Qaeda and were allied with them in many different ways before, during, and after 9-11. They were in fact the reason that al Qaeda was in Afghanistan, they applauded 9-11, Mullah Muhammad Omar is a beneficiary and benefactor of bin Laden, and the Taliban did not exactly see the American invasion of Afghanistan as an opportunity to be liberated from al Qaeda and continued to condemn America after the 9-11 accounts when the sympathy of most of the world could not have been more American. So, al Qaeda and the Taliban aided and abetted provoking the greatest military superpower into a war, and this only after more than a decade of increasingly jaw dropping actions (their treatment of women, the destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas, etc.) that clearly showed they didn't give a damn about being thought savages.

[greenslime1951]

Just wait until we get the Orbital Death Ray with ultra-high resolution cameras and realtime computer monitoring. We can pay Apple to develop an app that will instantly vaporize anyone who even picks up an AK-47. Problem solved.

Assholes with inferior technology eventually become dead assholes. The Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc. will very soon be the used toilet paper of history.

[Derleth]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

vaccination programs are really a cover for the West sterilizing the locals

Finally, something the Taliban and Jenny McCarthy can agree on!

[al27052]

Originally Posted by Sampiro

True, a synaptic misfire, but also true: the Taliban sheltered al Qaeda and were allied with them in many different ways before, during, and after 9-11. They were in fact the reason that al Qaeda was in Afghanistan, they applauded 9-11...

The question is, 10 years later, how do the Taliban feel about 9/11 NOW? Are they sorry it happened, because it resulted in a temporary loss of power for them, or are they simply opportunists, who were intentionally harming the populace before, and are looking forward to doing it unencumbered again?

[RedFury]

Sampiro, all snark aside and with all due respect, you're basically repeating the narrative that was sold at the time. And this is coming from someone that, at the time, supported the invasion.

If interested, watch the following documentary which comes closer to the truth.

The US refuses to negotiate with the Taliban

Now, I have no love-lost for those thugs -- or any others for that matter -- but that fact is the US should have never let Afghanistan get to the point of where it is now. Over ten years of futile warring with no end in sight and a lack of clear objectives. All the while stirring the hornet's nest and increasing -- if that's even possible at this point -- the anti-western feeling in the whole region. I think it's way past due getting out, what with all the talk about the bugbear Iran and their theoretical nuclear capacities, you're pissing off (and killing) a hell of a lot of Pakistanis who actually have nuclear warheads. About a 100 or so at last count.

Something to think about.

[RedFury]

Originally Posted by al27052

The question is, 10 years later, how do the Taliban feel about 9/11 NOW? Are they sorry it happened, because it resulted in a temporary loss of power for them, or are they simply opportunists, who were intentionally harming the populace before, and are looking forward to doing it unencumbered again?

::::sigh::::

How Dangerous Are the Taliban?

Multiple sources, including Lawrence Wright's book The Looming Tower, make clear that the Taliban was a reluctant host to al Qaeda in the 1990s and felt betrayed when the terrorist group repeatedly violated agreements to refrain from issuing inflammatory statements and fomenting violence abroad. Then the al Qaeda-sponsored 9/11 attacks -- which the Taliban had nothing to do with -- led to the toppling of the Taliban’s regime.

-- bolding mine.

Tons of additional cites available -- do your own research.

As to how they feel about AQ now:

An Interview: The Taliban’s Long View

"At least 70 percent of the Taliban are angry at Al Qaeda,” Maulvi said. “Originally, the Taliban were naïve and ignorant of politics and welcomed Al Qaeda into their homes.

“Part of the problem with Al Qaeda was that the Afghans around Jalalabad are in the habit of welcoming everyone who comes. They do an attan [Pashtun dance] for them. To tell the truth, I was relieved at the death of Osama. Through his policies, he destroyed Afghanistan. If he really believed in jihad he should have gone to Saudi Arabia and done jihad there, rather than wrecking our country."

This thread feels like traveling back in time.

[Marley23]

Originally Posted by al27052

The question is, 10 years later, how do the Taliban feel about 9/11 NOW? Are they sorry it happened, because it resulted in a temporary loss of power for them, or are they simply opportunists, who were intentionally harming the populace before, and are looking forward to doing it unencumbered again?

My first response is "who gives a fuck how they feel about it?" But to try to answer you're question- I don't see the "OR" there. The options are not mutually exclusive, and I figure the answer to all of them is yes. They had no problem with terrorism in the past and they still don't. I expect they're glad a bunch of infidels were killed on September 11th because they're committed many smaller-scale murders since then. I'm sure they are sorry they lost control of their country, and I am positive they're looking forward to setting things right by reinstituting fanatical religious law and making everybody miserable again at the earliest opportunity. Their alliance with Al Qaeda was based on a couple of things: Bin Laden had money and the Taliban had practically none (Afghanistan had diplomatic relations with almost zero other countries), and they had the same basic ideology even though the Taliban preferred to keep their oppression local and Bin Laden wanted to attack the West. Other than maybe learning that attacking the West is bad for their health, I have a hard time believing anything about the Taliban has changed since then.

[Ludovic]

Originally Posted by Marley23

They had no problem with terrorism in the past and they still don't. I expect they're glad a bunch of infidels were killed on September 11th because they're committed many smaller-scale murders since then.

Certainly a lot of them did, much more than is comfortable. But the Taliban are largely a warlord structure, which Al Qaeda never had. So a lot of people join them out of poverty or opportunism in a way that they never did for AQ. I'm sure that many of these people did not approve of the 9/11 attacks, but of course they will not say this because of the fear of their lives.

[Marley23]

My heart goes out to them.

[scratch llll]

Originally Posted by RedFury

Now, I have no love-lost for those thugs -- or any others for that matter -- but that fact is the US should have never let Afghanistan get to the point of where it is now. Over ten years of futile warring with no end in sight and a lack of clear objectives. All the while stirring the hornet's nest and increasing -- if that's even possible at this point -- the anti-western feeling in the whole region. I think it's way past due getting out, what with all the talk about the bugbear Iran and their theoretical nuclear capacities, you're pissing off (and killing) a hell of a lot of Pakistanis who actually have nuclear warheads. About a 100 or so at last count.

The people who hated us before hate us still and no matter if we gave them enough money to sink us in debt 100 years and kissed thier asses daily would still hate us because we are infidels. Pakistan takes our money and hides Taliban and Al Queda leaders. Rather than being shamed they were hiding Osama they were angry a doctor did the right thing in exposing him. Raiding parties strike across the border and run hide behind the skirts of Pakistani military. It is a catch 22 damned if you do and damned if you don't. We give them lots of money and they aid our foes. In the face of nothing you do being right then you take out the worst ones. It would be great if they didn't have family or friends or a military escort at the time but they twist things so it aids thier propaganda anyway and self loathing westerners are ready to lap it up and lay all blame on the evil US anyway. The drone strikes continue. Nukes? They aren't idiot enough to have the whole country leveled, just enough to lose our money.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by scratch llll

The people who hated us before hate us still and no matter if we gave them enough money to sink us in debt 100 years and kissed thier asses daily would still hate us because we are infidels.

However, thanks to our behavior plenty of people hate us now who didn't before.

Originally Posted by scratch llll

Rather than being shamed they were hiding Osama they were angry a doctor did the right thing in exposing him.

A doctor who was a fraud and an agent of a foreign country. Americans would be plenty angry too if some doctor performs fraudulent medicine just so he could, say, arrange for Bush to be assassinated. And Bush did a lot more harm than Osama bin Laden.

Originally Posted by scratch llll

In the face of nothing you do being right then you take out the worst ones.

Except we don't; we kill people pretty much at random so we can pretend we are accomplishing something. We keep claiming that we've killed this or that "leader" but are basically just making it all up.

[scratch llll]

I think everyone recognizes you have thier propaganda hook sunk so deep in you it's worthless to reply to you.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by Larry Mudd

Taliban stupid and just don't care, hey!
Daylight come and me wan go home.

Hey Mister Taliban, tally me banana...

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by scratch llll

I think everyone recognizes you have thier propaganda hook sunk so deep in you it's worthless to reply to you.

In other words, I'm right, you have nothing so you'll vaguely slander me instead of trying to actually argue.

There's someone here who's swallowed propaganda; but it's you, not me.

[akennett]

Originally Posted by al27052

...their days are numbered.

...says every failed conqueror in history.

[Slithy Tove]

A couple of points:

It's not a womens rights issue, it's a human rights issue. In cultures where women are being raped and enslaved and murdered, so are boys and men. It's the (less virulent but still patronistic) misoginy of our culture that misses this point, with it's "Damsel in Distress" journalism.

As far as AQ vs the Talibans' goals, these are reminiscent of Trotskyist World Revolution vs Stalinist Socialism in One Country.

It was our good luck that the Russian, Chinese and Iranian revolutions came along when the US was in "game over" mode after World Wars one and two and Vietnam, respectively. The strategy thus adopted was to set up a cordon sanitaire around the insanity.

9/11 came after Gulf War One and the Cold War, when we were feeling like we could do whatever we wanted. Well, you can stir a pot of alphabet soup, but you can't make the letters spell what you want.

[al27052]

Originally Posted by akennett

...says every failed conqueror in history.

When's the last time a conqueror had the military tech that we'll have in 15 or 20 years?

[al27052]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

And Bush did a lot more harm than Osama bin Laden.

Possibly, yes. Do you think bin Laden would have done more harm than Bush did, if he had the same resources to work with?

If you say anything other than some variation of "bin Laden would have probably killed billions of people if he had that much military might at his disposal" then I'm going to have to question your sanity.

Bush did some fucked-up stuff, yes. I feel he and Cheney should be indicted for war crimes for Iraq. However, they are just an ignorant fool and a war profiteer, respectively.

bin Laden, OTOH, was undoubtedly the most dangerous terrorist ever. Giving him control over a nuclear arsenal...

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by al27052

Possibly, yes. Do you think bin Laden would have done more harm than Bush did, if he had the same resources to work with?

If you say anything other than some variation of "bin Laden would have probably killed billions of people if he had that much military might at his disposal" then I'm going to have to question your sanity.

Bush did some fucked-up stuff, yes. I feel he and Cheney should be indicted for war crimes for Iraq. However, they are just an ignorant fool and a war profiteer, respectively.

bin Laden, OTOH, was undoubtedly the most dangerous terrorist ever. Giving him control over a nuclear arsenal...

All that is irrelevant to my argument, however.

[al27052]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

All that is irrelevant to my argument, however.

Well, you were stating that you see equivalence between Bush and bin Laden.

I do not. One is a fool. He managed to avoid nuking anyone, though. The other would have nuked Israel about 10 seconds after he got the opportunity. He also might well have nuked several US cities if given the chance.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by al27052

Well, you were stating that you see equivalence between Bush and bin Laden.

I was making the point that most Americans would be angry if a fraud had helped conspire to kill Bush, just as Pakistanis are angry that a fraud conspired to help kill bin Laden, despite both being scum. And any moral difference is going to be outweighed by the fact that Bush did far more damage to America than bin Laden did to Pakistan.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Inigo's Law: "Anything you can think of already eists on the internet, and someone's likely making money off it."

Originally Posted by Larry Mudd

Taliban stupid and just don't care, hey!
Daylight come and me wan go home.

Taliban. Kind of a fun little time-capsule.

[al27052]

Originally Posted by Der Trihs

I was making the point that most Americans would be angry if a fraud had helped conspire to kill Bush, just as Pakistanis are angry that a fraud conspired to help kill bin Laden, despite both being scum. And any moral difference is going to be outweighed by the fact that Bush did far more damage to America than bin Laden did to Pakistan.

I think it's absolutely ridiculous that Bush was the president for 8 years. I however, do not think he is equivalent to someone who seriously considered setting off a dirty atomic bomb over New York City.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by al27052

I think it's absolutely ridiculous that Bush was the president for 8 years. I however, do not think he is equivalent to someone who seriously considered setting off a dirty atomic bomb over New York City.

Yep.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

Yep.

That is, I agree with you, Sir.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by al27052

I think it's absolutely ridiculous that Bush was the president for 8 years. I however, do not think he is equivalent to someone who seriously considered setting off a dirty atomic bomb over New York City.

No, he's someone who devastated an entire country.

And "dirty bombs" aren't "atomic bombs", nor are they especially dangerous. 9-11 killed far more people than a dirty bomb would.