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#201
07-20-2012, 06:23 PM
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Geoengineering is rapidly gaining ground as a serious method of combating global climate change. Why? We've got everything we already need to slow or even reverse climate change already here. We'd need to switch our economies over to clean energies, solar, wind, hydroelectric, geothermal, etc. and cut our consumption to a level which would be sustainable. But still those crazy scientists are talking about building massive solar shades to block some of the sun's energy, or putting particulates high in the atmosphere that would turn the sky from blue to white and increase the Earth's albedo. It's a solution fraught with dangers because we don't know what the effects of such large scale engineering would be and there's no fall-back plan(how do you scrub the atmosphere or space of all these tiny particles?). We know it would reduce the amount of light and infrared radiation from the sun that hits the earth, but what would those reductions do to light-sensitive organisms, trees, algae, etc that convert CO2 into oxygen? Would we be reducing the ability of our planet to naturally sequester carbon? Isn't that exactly the wrong direction to go? Still, the geoengineering solutions are getting ever more serious consideration at all levels of scientific and government bodies. Because the lifestyle changes humanity must undertake to reverse climate change seem a practical impossibility. This is different from a true impossibility, but not in any meaningful sense. Enjoy, Steven Last edited by Mtgman; 07-20-2012 at 06:27 PM. 
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#202
07-20-2012, 06:25 PM
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Awesome.
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#203
07-20-2012, 06:30 PM
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#204
07-20-2012, 06:32 PM
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#205
07-20-2012, 06:39 PM
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#206
07-20-2012, 06:43 PM
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#207
07-20-2012, 06:45 PM
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#208
07-20-2012, 06:51 PM
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It's fun for you to now pretend that all you are saying is that it is not impossible to lose weight through diet and exercise, and that all you said was that it was hard, but I've actually read your post #112 and that isn't all you are saying at all. Your post is full of moral judgment and holier than thou and name calling. But look how you whine when someone calls you stupid, eh? Last edited by Princhester; 07-20-2012 at 06:53 PM.
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#209
07-20-2012, 07:12 PM
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 Sorry, did you think that was me getting butt-hurt because some idiot called me names on the internet? You've got an awfully sensitive nose for that if you took "Really, bitch?" to be me whining. I didn't come to this thread to debate the science of weight loss. We did that a year ago in Stoid's mega-thread about Gary Taubes. If you think my posts were so dripping with judgment, you may want to re-read them. Some of my earlier quotes include "But expectations need to be managed, and maintaining a healthy weight is a life long investment, not a phase," "People failing is not the same as things not working. If I fail to learn how to drive a manual transmission, does that mean that manual transmissions don't work? No, it just means I didn't learn how to do it correctly. Nobody said it was easy. Psychologically, emotionally; it's not easy. But it does work. I'm not making a moral judgment on people for the struggle involved, but you're not doing anyone any favors by pretending it's actually impossible to do". And the extent of my moral judgment in that post was "I think people who are overweight and say that dieting and exercise unequivocally does not work either have unrealistic expectations about the results they will get, the amount of work that will go into it, or the amount of time (forever) they will have to dedicate to a lifestyle change." If that was what you took such a major issue with, you may be too sensitive for the internet. Last edited by ladyfoxfyre; 07-20-2012 at 07:13 PM.
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#210
07-20-2012, 07:28 PM
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I also love dark chocolate now too, dark choc covered coffee beans are the best thing anyone ever thought of in the history of the world some days. A little goes a long way. Weight training gives me an unbelievable high, cardio is just a drudge. Others feel the opposite but I know I get to eat a hell of a lot more these days than I ever did because of my movement and my muscle which is great because I still love all the shit that got me fat in the first place, well not the doughnuts - they send me straight to sleep.
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#211
07-20-2012, 07:30 PM
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There is nothing, nothing in your posts to show you understand the science concerning relevant behaviour, despite links being provided, at all.
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#212
07-20-2012, 07:37 PM
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Did I come in here to charm? I must have forgotten where I am...oh no wait...it's not huggy MPSIMS where everybody's problems are special and nobody is responsible. I struggle with my weight too. But I work at it, and people who want to pretend it's all so out of their reach for any of the million reasons they can come up with do a disservice to people who do work hard.
I'll break it down for you. I know losing weight is hard. I have acknowledged that many times here. I never said it was easy. What I said is that it is simple. Simple does not equal easy. Pretending that weight loss is impossible does no one any favors. It is a dangerous pervasive myth that encourages people to give up before they even start. I didn't come here to charm you, or anyone else. There. Glad we could clear that up.
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#213
07-20-2012, 07:43 PM
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I just cannot believe there is yet another one of these threads.
The following are some basic facts: There really is virtually no one who believes that it is literally impossible to lose weight and the very few who do would be very deluded. Few enough calories and more calories burned will cause weight loss. Period, full stop. Those who do state otherwise are almost invariably speaking hyperbolically, like those who say "literally" when they just mean "really really like." And there are even few of those. Obesity can be a consequence of unbridled gluttony. OTOH many who are obese are not gluttonous and have just as much will power as those who are thin. Once someone is an obese adult it is often extremely difficult to become non-obese and even more difficult to stay non-obese. The body defends set points strongly. Metabolism adjusts causing fewer calories to be burned and at the same time the drive to eat more gets ramped up. The effort involved would be quite similar to asking a person with a "normal" BMI to lose and maintain a loss of 20 pounds.* Those who have achieved and maintained more dramatic fat loss have done so by virtue of tremendous discipline usually coupled with great social supports. It can be done but setting that up as a goal is often setting yourself up for failure. It is also possible to have very healthy habits, eat healthy foods in moderation, exercise regularly, and remain obese. Which from a health perspective is just fine because those people are healthy. The habits matter much more than the BMI. From a health perspective becoming "normal" BMI is not required. Adopt and maintain the habits which will very likely result in a maintained loss of 5 to 10% of body weight, and improved health outcomes result, even if the individual remains obese. Further weight loss is for vanity and to shut up the idiots who assume all sorts of failings on your part based on a stereotype of "fat." Whether that is worth the difficulty of achieving and maintaining that level of loss is questionable at best. Success on a nutrition/exercise plan is not weight loss; it is keeping with the plan long term for its own sake. Losing fat is just bonus points. *My personal experience is that my body defends at 150 pounds. Which luckily for me is in the BMI sweet spot of high normal to low "overweight" associated with lowest mortality rates (24.6 to be precise). I usually exercise about 6 to 7 hours a week with at least moderate intensity and eat a very healthy diet but even much less exercise will keep me within a pound or two of that weight. When work and home life have simultaneously gone nuts and I have no time to exercise at all for months I have gained ten or so ... but it drops right back to 150 very soon after I start up any exercise at all. Dropping below 150 OTOH is not something that happens even when I cut my intake down and ramp up my exercise further. I maintain there. The only time I dropped below was a marathon training year when I ran distances exclusively with no weight training (usually a significant part of what I do). I am very confident that I had less muscle mass that year and that my body defended whatever percent body fat it was to the same degree (and no 6 pack abs then either). Is it impossible for me to lose more weight, and to get to a BMI of say 20? No of course not. But doing that would be very very difficult, and likely unhealthy for me. An obese adult's body is convinced that an obese point is where they should be no less than my body is sure that 150 is where I should be.
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#214
07-20-2012, 08:00 PM
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#215
07-20-2012, 08:08 PM
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DSeid; don't you think that some, perhaps even many people who struggle with weight (not necessarily obesity) hear the facts that you address and use them as rationalizations to not take personal accountability into their weight issues whatsoever?
And don't you think you are minimizing, even dismissing, the mental and psychological benefits of weight loss beyond that 5-10% for the medically obese? You say anything beyond that amount is strictly for "vanity"; but what about a person's self-esteem, body-image, confidence-levels and so much more? These things have a impact on a person's physical health as well, so to say it's just "vanity" seems to be falling short. You say "from a health perspective" prior to saying it's only important to lose up to 10% of one's weight if obese. But mental health is very much intertwined with physical, no?
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#216
07-20-2012, 08:13 PM
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I'm not going to slog through this but I will ad fwiw I was diagnosed with a medical problem just over three months ago and since beginning treatment have lost 30 lbs and have seen dramatic improvement in my blood sugar, cholesterol and blood pressure. So sometimes diet and exercise don't work.
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#217
07-20-2012, 08:18 PM
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There are a lot of health problems that don't generate the kind of self-loathing that obesity does. If we could do away with the fat stigma, then maybe more people would be in a better position mentally to lose weight.
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#218
07-20-2012, 08:20 PM
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"We" aren't talking about you. "We" are talking about the other major fraction of people with weight problems that don't "have" that excuse. And yet again...the folks that try to say they are like you so therefore weight lose is a near impossibilty are the ones that deserve a 
Last edited by billfish678; 07-20-2012 at 08:21 PM.
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#219
07-20-2012, 08:57 PM
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#220
07-20-2012, 09:25 PM
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I am stating quite clearly that they are accountable for their choices. I am also pointing out that the scale is not a completely reliable judge of how good of a job they are doing. Quote:
People were all over snakescatslady in this thread and not without reason, but her distorted thinking is pretty typical. They set their goal as becoming "normal" BMI and they then get discouraged by their failure to achieve that goal and then give up on the behavioral changes that had in fact already improved their health risks tremendously. Most who have "dieted", including those few who hit normal BMI and stayed there, can remember the frustration of the dreaded plateau, when no weight loss occurs for weeks or longer despite doing everything right. Many give up during that period. It is frustrating to people in particular because they are focusing on the less important goal, the weight loss. If they recognized that another day of staying with the plan is another day of improving health no matter what the scale says they could instead give themselves a much deserved attaboy at the end of each of those days for hitting those target behaviors ... and I think be more likely to persevere and feel better about themselves in the process. IMHO.
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#221
07-20-2012, 09:40 PM
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I'm going to be honest...I stopped caring about my looks years ago. I do the best I can to get exercise (mainly walking, using my exercise bike when it's not buried in my husband's crap out in the garage and using Wii Fit Plus), I'm not going to diet. I've been there, done that and it's just too difficult. You can't eat anything that tastes any good..it all has to be whole wheat this and organic that and fruit and plain vegetables with very little sauce or whatever. No meat, no bread (which I adore), no pasta, no sugar. I might as well be eating birdseed at that point. There's nothing wrong with eating that kind of stuff, but it just isn't for me.
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#222
07-20-2012, 10:32 PM
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Further your simple (and trust me when I say I mean that in the most judgmental possible sense) view doesn't work because it doesn't understand the problem. You seem to think of yourself as having some sort of pragmatic no-nonsense approach. Here's some news: a pragmatic no-nonsense approach that doesn't work 97% of the time is about as far from pragmatic as something can be, and is pure nonsense.
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#223
07-20-2012, 10:40 PM
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Problem I'm having now is I'm starting to hulk out of a lot of my shirts (getting tight in the shoulder and lat areas.
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#224
07-20-2012, 10:45 PM
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The main problem with these types of discussions is that there are two ways to view obesity: as a public health problem and as a personal issue.
Viewed as a public health problem, it makes sense to say things like "diet and exercise don't work" and to think about things like banning large sodas and trans fats, etc. This is basically the view that imagines Bob and Joe sitting at their big control board watching humans like a herd of cattle, adjusting inputs and seeing what the effect is on outputs. Viewed as a personal issue, saying "diet and exercise don't work" is completely stupid. Of course they work if one actually does them. And the evidence that so few fatties succeed in un-fatifying themselves says nothing about the personal issue--if any particular fatty diets and exercises, they will lose weight. All those studies really show is that people with the mental make-up to get fat in the first place will, lo and behold, stay that way, even after trying to not be that way for a short period. What a revelation! It turns out that drinkers are often found drinking and smokers are often found smoking. Who knew? So, fatties, you can't use those studies as an excuse for your fatness. Go diet and exercise, and you will lose weight. Last edited by Rand Rover; 07-20-2012 at 10:46 PM.
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#225
07-20-2012, 11:06 PM
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#227
07-20-2012, 11:34 PM
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I don't think people are saying that diet and exercise flat out don't work, but that they *do* work, but instead, that the route to weight loss is extraordinarily difficult because the time scales are long (you try sticking to a diet of some arbitrary number of calories for 9 months!) and that your body tends to work against you in many ways- set point mechanisms, etc...
In my experience, the effort is almost an exponential curve; it's easy enough to buckle down and lose 20 lbs. It's a lot harder to keep that up for 40 lbs, and it's a freaking Labor of Hercules to continue it on to 60. It's possible- I've done it in the past, but it's extremely hard. At some point, you just want to live your life and not be consumed by calorie counting, having to spend a lot of your free time exercising, and not being able to just go have a burger and a couple of beers with your friends, without having to literally starve yourself later, or knowingly deprive yourself of any of that kind of pleasure and camaraderie except for once in a blue moon, because you're trying to lose weight. Then once you do lose the weight, you had better hope you had implemented an entire lifestyle change, or else you'll eat like you did, and gain it back sooner or later. And, if you didn't like that lifestyle that got you thin, you probably won't much enjoy the one that will keep you thin. Basically, I'm saying that it can be done, but it sucks and for a lot of people is unrealistic with all the other demands of modern life. Good luck having small children and having the time and energy to count calories, exercise hours a day, and manage to appropriately care for them. I think a lot of never-fat people have an unrealistic idea of what "diet and exercise" actually is, and it's awfully condescending to just go around proclaiming that we're lazy and if we'd just diet and exercise we'd be thin. It's just as idiotic and condescending as telling a smoker to just quit, or an alcoholic to just quit drinking. We all know those two don't work that way, so why does everyone assume that being overweight or obese do? Last edited by bump; 07-20-2012 at 11:36 PM.
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#228
07-20-2012, 11:39 PM
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Actually, juice-fasting drops about a pound a day for most people, and most people find it quite easy. Few know about it, though, most people who DO know about it dismiss it as crazy-people stuff, but it works like no other method.
(and here comes the onslaught of people who think they know things.) The really difficulty is keeping the weight off, though...very few people have the motivation. Last edited by al27052; 07-20-2012 at 11:40 PM.
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#229
07-20-2012, 11:52 PM
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#230
07-21-2012, 12:33 AM
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I'm not curious enough to sift through pages of the same old same old, but I'm mildly curious why he chooses to be insulted by the physiques, metabolisms, and explanations of other people. Sounds a wee bit stuck on himself. Last edited by dropzone; 07-21-2012 at 12:34 AM.
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#231
07-21-2012, 01:11 AM
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#232
07-21-2012, 01:34 AM
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Has a single person in this thread called fat people "lazy"? If they have, I've managed to miss it. What I find condescending is telling non-fat people that they don't know what diet and exercise are.
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#233
07-21-2012, 03:08 AM
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It would be nice if we could separate weight from self-worth, because the judgment heaped on fat people is really not very helpful. Every single time this topic comes up it quickly devolves into "haha, fatty is stupid and worthless" vs. "I only eat 1500 calories a day and work out regularly but still weigh 300 pounds, it's just the way I was made!'. Both sides of that argument are pointless and one is almost certainly a lie. Surely we could find some middle ground without all the judgment and the defensiveness? I'm sure there are obese people who are simply lazy and gluttonous, but I also think it's likely that losing weight really is harder for some people than for others. Similarly, I appreciate that there are lots of fit people who are diligent and careful about their weight, but I know for sure there are others who just find that staying thin comes naturally to them (I've certainly known several skinny beer-drinking fast food-gobbling guys who freely admitted that they never exercised). There's just no way to accurately judge how much effort someone is putting in unless you spend a hell of a lot of time with them, so the snap judgment of both fat and thin people is pointless and, as the OP said, kind of insulting. Having said all that, the basic fact is that it is absolutely asinine for anyone to claim that it is literally impossible for them to lose weight. It's always possible to change your life if you really want to badly enough, some changes are just more difficult than others.
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#234
07-21-2012, 03:23 AM
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You skinny people make me nauseous. Listen up, for the past 3 weeks I've cut the portion sizes of my mid-afternoon snack down to medium fries, small shake and only a double bacon cheeseburger. And, I sit on my custom Vibra-aerobic Barcalounger Affinity II at least 3 hours every night. And guess what? I still have a big fat ass. So, don't tell me I'm not a barometrically-challenged individual with metabolic hypersensitivities.
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#235
07-21-2012, 03:28 AM
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Also, I've heard doing diets like that can trash your metabolism, but I ain't a nutritionist or a biologist so I'll keep my trap shut so someone more knowledgeable can speak on that. Last edited by Jragon; 07-21-2012 at 03:29 AM.
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#236
07-21-2012, 05:04 AM
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Anyway, part of the problem is indubitably cultural. The region with the highest percentage of overweight and obese people in Sweden has a lower rate than the region with the lowest in England. England in turn has lower levels of obesity than most US states as far as I can tell. Perhaps if the US adopted similar public health and advertising strategies as Sweden obesity rates would decline (though I assume there are several confounds). Anyway, I actually find exercise incredibly dull. The only time I got any rush from it was when I took an exercise supplement which my personal trainer friend had spare and found I could get through the routine a lot quicker, but he later advised me not to take them. What works for me is doing it as soon as I wake up. Stick in earphones, get it over with and shower. Leaves the rest of the day free. I also advocate switching entirely to water and having oats for breakfast, plus cottage cheese sandwiches (vegetarians on average eat more food containing carbohydrates and less with protein, yet have lower incidences of obesity). Fruit as a snack is good, especially dipped in yoghurt.
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#237
07-21-2012, 07:48 AM
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Anyone who wants to judge me on this is welcome to. I'd rather be lazy and gluttonous than dishonest, and blame my failings on everyone else.
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#238
07-21-2012, 08:07 AM
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It does piss me off when someone says they hate me for being so lucky, since I am so mindful about what I do. If I had my druthers, I'd knock back a milk shake every evening (mmm....strawberry milk shakes!) But it doesn't take away a single thing from me to acknowledge that simply being a never-fat person gives me an advantage over someone who can't say the same. Being thin, IMHO, is reward enough. It's not a contest.
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#239
07-21-2012, 08:29 AM
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Non-joke part: Sorry, lady, but I don't believe this. Your breakfast consists of low fat milk and oatmeal, lunch is always a salad, followed by a large dinner, plus you exercise 4x/week, but you're fat? This sounds almost exactly like what I do, minus the dessert part. And yes, I KNOW (don't start) that everyone's metabolisms are different, and it might be easy for me to finger wag, missy-who's-never-had-a-weight-problem, so I can't say "Well this is my lifestyle and I weigh x, which means you should too." But I can say I'd like to know the total caloric intake of this exceedingly reasonable diet and what kind of exercise you're doing. How long have you been doing this for? Quote:
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#240
07-21-2012, 09:40 AM
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Small, incremental, sustainable changes are the way to go, at least as long as there isn't some acute problem that requires immediate and drastic change. It took me a year or more to wean myself off of Coca-Cola, but I did it. It just started with drinking a little less this week than I did last week. It's why the typical "diet" doesn't work; it's too much to fast. Let the slightly more healthy thing become a habit, and then make another small healthy change. Eventually they all just become "lifestyle" or "you," and not a "diet" or a radical change.
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#241
07-21-2012, 09:49 AM
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And anyone who says they can't lose weight because they don't have time to exercise is fooling themselves. I don't exercise (although I need to and plan to) at all (I know I have to get going on this). Weight loss can be achieved by diet alone.
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#244
07-21-2012, 12:16 PM
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SticksandString, that might have been true in the past, but it's not anymore. Here's a website with hundreds and hundreds of delicious, healthy recipes.
http://www.sparkrecipes.com carlb, thanks for your excellent advice. Reading this thread has made me realize I've been approaching this the wrong way. I have a tendency to go absolutely nuts when I'm trying to lose weight, and I inevitably I hurt myself or burn myself out in some way. So I'm going to take this super slow. It will be No Sweets in the House for three, maybe six months, and I'll throw some walks in there. I'd rather take three years to lose 20 pounds permanently than three months to lose and regain. As for having time to exercise, I believe both George W. Bush and Barack Obama exercise on a regular basis. If the President of the fuckin' United States can find the time, so can I.
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#245
07-21-2012, 01:07 PM
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#247
07-21-2012, 01:17 PM
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For me, it is as hard to keep it off as it was to lose it. When I was heavier I used to think, "Why didn't I do something when I was ten pounds overweight instead of letting it get to forty?"
So now I religiously weigh myself. Once I am three pounds over what I want I get serious until it's gone, and then I resume normal life. I eat ice cream, I eat cake, and almost everything I want. The difference is - portion size. Where before I would scoff at the chip bags or cookie recipes and their suggested serving size, now it is my serving size. With desserts I don't need it all. After the first couple bites I will put my fork down, and after a couple minutes realize I've gotten 99% of the enjoyment out of it, so I stop. I stop eating before I feel full even if the food looks good. When I was heavier I used to say I didn't have that kind of willpower, but after I lost the weight I found I did. I know for me at least, I need to be ever vigilant. I remember reading a quote (I forget by whom) that said something like nothing tastes as good as being thin feels, and for me that is true. Last edited by Pai325; 07-21-2012 at 01:19 PM.
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#248
07-21-2012, 01:23 PM
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For example, a typical stir-fry I do is Thai basil chicken. A whole half-pound (two servings, technically) of skinless chicken breast has about 300 calories. Add 1/2-1 cup of green beans or squash (20-40 calories), a tablespoon of oil (120 calories), 1 cup cooked white rice (200 calories), fish sauce, garlic, hot chili peppers, basil (all negligible calorically.) You're still at under 700 calories, you get to have a large serving of protein, you get to eat just regular ol' white rice (if you don't like whole grains), and you get a reasonable serving of vegetables. And you know what. It tastes great! This was my favorite Thai dish before I even went on my diet. Restaurant versions tend to be even heavier on the oil (and my 1 tablespoon is a generous amount--you can pull it off with just a teaspoon if you really want to, but I don't believe in cutting fat from your diet.) You want to bulk it up more? Add a bunch of mushrooms. A half pound of mushrooms will only add about 50 calories. Pasta was also common for me, but I just reduced how much I ate of it, and made it a side dish along with a generous portion of lean protein (fish, shrimp, chicken breast, pork loin, etc.) Of course you can eat pasta and lose weight. There's all sorts of recipes like this, that taste great and are not calorie dense. The idea that you have to eat food that tastes like crap to lose weight is ridiculous. Note that I said when I lost my weight 4 years ago, I was eating McDoubles for lunch quite frequently. I was just sure to cap my calories for lunch at that. No fries, no dessert, no non-diet soda. You can't reasonably be expected to stick to a long-term diet if you don't like the food you're eating, and if you put any food on your "never eat again" list. Last edited by pulykamell; 07-21-2012 at 01:27 PM.
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