Can Ramadan be suspended in time of war?

[Mangosteen]

It would seem that an ideal time for a non Muslim army to attack a Muslim force would be toward the end of Ramadan.

It sure would seem that the Muslim soldiers would not be at their best at this time.

[FuzzyOgre]

You are making some erroneous judgments about the pragmatics of Muslim society.

First: They can eat after dark, right up until dawn. Many eat VERY well during those hours, and so the 16 hours abstaining arent as serious as you think.

Next: As I said, their Muslims are pragmatic about it. Pregnant women, little children, the aged, the ill and certain other groups may certainly eat during the day during Ramadan.

These other groups would include people in emergency duties such as doctors, nurses, paramedics, police officers, and yes, at least some of the soldiers.

[Simple Linctus]

Not all muslims are pragmatic about it. There is a huge correlation in some places between retardation and being in the womb during ramadan, although I'm not sure at what point.

[ColdPhoenix]

Originally Posted by Confused dart cum

Not all muslims are pragmatic about it. There is a huge correlation in some places between retardation and being in the womb during ramadan, although I'm not sure at what point.

How ridiculous. I don't know of any area where pregnant women are expected to take part as the Koran clearly lists them as exempt. Even if some women did fast, how would eating every day but only at night affect the baby?

Got any evidence to back up your claim?

[Chessic Sense]

Originally Posted by Confused dart cum

Not all muslims are pragmatic about it. There is a huge correlation in some places between retardation and being in the womb during ramadan, although I'm not sure at what point.

If there's a huge correlation, then it shouldn't be hard to find a citation for it. Let's see it.

[AK84]

If you are undertaking a duty where fasting would adversely effect your performance you do not fast. Period.

[jtgain]

That would be a similar mistake to, say, an army invading Texas on Sunday under the theory that a lot of Christians live in Texas and would therefore not fight on the Sabbath.

[Smapti]

As I recall, some folks once made an assumption like this about Yom Kippur.

Didn't work out so well for them.

[Siam Sam]

Ramadan never seems to stop the Muslim insurgents in the eight-year-old uprising in Thailand's deep South from continuing to blow up citizens, soldiers and officials alike.

[Koxinga]

Originally Posted by jtgain

That would be a similar mistake to, say, an army invading Texas on Sunday under the theory that a lot of Christians live in Texas and would therefore not fight on the Sabbath.

Everybody knows you should invade in the fall on a Friday night to catch us off guard. You aren't so familiar with our religion, now are ya?

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Koxinga

Everybody knows you should invade in the fall on a Friday night to catch us off guard. You aren't so familiar with our religion, now are ya?

That's right. That is when everyone's drunk at their local high-school football match. Y'all.

[Simple Linctus]

Originally Posted by ColdPhoenix

How ridiculous. I don't know of any area where pregnant women are expected to take part as the Koran clearly lists them as exempt. Even if some women did fast, how would eating every day but only at night affect the baby?

Got any evidence to back up your claim?

Originally Posted by Chessic Sense

If there's a huge correlation, then it shouldn't be hard to find a citation for it. Let's see it.

Darn right it's not hard to find evidence, so why do I have to do all the googling around here

Originally Posted by Health Capital and the Prenatal Environment: The Effect of Ramadan Observance During Pregnancy

We use the Islamic holy month of Ramadan as a natural experiment in fasting and fetal health. In Michigan births 1989-2006, we find prenatal exposure to Ramadan among Arab mothers results in lower birthweight. Exposure to Ramadan in the first month of gestation is also associated with a sizable reduction in the number of male births. In Census data for Uganda and Iraq we find strong associations between in utero exposure to Ramadan and the likelihood of being disabled as an adult. Effects are particularly large for mental (or learning) disabilities. To a lesser extent, we also find that wealth proxies are compromised. We find no evidence that negative selection in conceptions during Ramadan accounts for our findings, suggesting that avoiding Ramadan exposure during pregnancy is costly or the long-term effects of fasting unknown.

Full paper: http://merlin.fae.ua.es/activities/l...6_complete.pdf

Just more damage done by irrational beliefs. Or if one is a believer, just part of god's plan.

[KarlGauss]

Originally Posted by ColdPhoenix

How ridiculous. I don't know of any area where pregnant women are expected to take part as the Koran clearly lists them as exempt. Even if some women did fast, how would eating every day but only at night affect the baby?

Got any evidence to back up your claim?

Not eating for 16 hours, especially by a pregnant woman with high metabolic demands can lead to ketone production by the body. Ketones cross the placenta. And, they are teratogenic (link is only one of many, many references including those on human teratogenesis).

[Mr. Excellent]

Originally Posted by AK84

If you are undertaking a duty where fasting would adversely effect your performance you do not fast. Period.

Yup. I really doubt you'd find a surgeon, for example, who fasts during Ramadan - even in majority-Muslim states. Nor a surgeon who fasts for Yom Kippur (unless he's not on call).

Originally Posted by Smapti

As I recall, some folks once made an assumption like this about Yom Kippur.

Didn't work out so well for them.

Pretty much true, with the caveat that it worked out much *less* poorly for them than every previous Arab-Israeli war. One of the reasons for the Camp David accords was that the Israelis were very badly spooked by how close a thing it had been.

[Bridget Burke]

Originally Posted by Confused dart cum

.....Full paper: http://merlin.fae.ua.es/activities/l...6_complete.pdf

Just more damage done by irrational beliefs. Or if one is a believer, just part of god's plan.

It's an interesting paper but the authors don't find a "huge" correlation. They had general census data from Iraq & Uganda, but the serious study took place among Muslims in Michigan. Birth weights were lower...

Although some may interpret evidence of negative effects on birth weight as an important finding in and of itself, we take the more conservative view that it merely demonstrates the potential importance of nutritional disruptions during fetal development on long-term outcomes.

More work is needed.....

Future research should also confirm whether other commonly-experienced disruptions to prenatal nutrition exert similar effects as Ramadan fasting. As mentioned above, most US pregnancies are not recognized until after the first month of gestation. Given the results of this study, maternal behavior particularly during the first month of pregnancy, can have permanent impacts on offspring health. Roughly 40% of US women of childbearing age are attempting to lose weight and 24% of women reported meal-skipping during pregnancy. Among those women who are attempting to become pregnant, the negative consequences of dieting prior to pregnancy recognition should be considered. Thus, even in relatively well-nourished populations, prenatal nutrition (and at a minimum its timing) may be sub-optimal for fetal development. Future research should employ new identication strategies to evaluate both short and long-term health effects of nutrition in early pregnancy on health and other end points, e.g., test scores.

One of the authors appears to be Muslim.

Bhash "Bhashkar" Mazumder is a senior economist in the economic research department and executive director of the Chicago Census Research Data Center at the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago. As a member of the microeconomic team, Mazumder conducts research in labor economics, education and health. His recent research has focused on the long-term effects of poor health early in life. His research has been focused in three areas: intergenerational economic mobility; the long-term effects of poor health early in life; black-white gaps in human capital development.

[AK84]

Originally Posted by Smapti

As I recall, some folks once made an assumption like this about Yom Kippur.

Didn't work out so well for them.

Worked out very well. The impregnable Bar Lev line was breached in about 2 hours and what was it, 100 tanks destroyed on the first day? Yom Kippur was chosen because it was a holiday, not because of the fact people would be fasting. Ironically, it was also Ramzan in Oct 1973.


As it is, the lack of food does not really begin to effect a person till about 4 pm, per my experience.

[Quartz]

Perhaps a silly extension, but do Muslims working the night shift during Ramadan fast from dusk until dawn?

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Quartz

Perhaps a silly extension, but do Muslims working the night shift during Ramadan fast from dusk until dawn?

I doubt The Prophet foresaw the advent of 24-hour 7-Elevens.

[Hari Seldon]

In 1999, the Moslem students at McGill were upset because they were to take their December final exams during Ramadan. In Montreal in December, the sun rises around 7:35 and sets around 4:15, so fasting requires only skipping lunch. My attitude would have been suck it up or ignore Ramadan, but the university authorities were concerned enough to make some accommodation. It would have been different had there been exams in June, when there are more than 15 hours of daylight.

[even sven]

Ramadan is a spiritual exercise and a time for community bonding. It's not something God requires in the sense that an angry god might require a virgin to be sacrificed to the volcano. It's something that people do because they want to, because it brings them closer to their faith. It's not some set-in-stone cosmic necessity. any more than celebrating Christmas is.

It's perfectly okay to screw up on Ramadan. Most people do at some point or another- I've seen more than one faster mindlessly eat a piece of candy and then pull an "Ohhhhhhh shit!" It's not optimal and you'd try not to do it, but if you do have to skip fasting, it's not the end of the world. Typically, you would make it up on another day at your convenience. It's not as satisfying to fast on a different day because you don't have the social support and festival atmosphere, but it's not really a big deal. Many women have to make up days, because you don't fast when you are on your period. Indeed, there are a lot of people who do not fast or do a modified fast- children, the elderly, the sick, pregnant women, women on their period, breastfeeding women, travelers, people with critical jobs, etc.. In a community (especially one with a high birth rate) you may find as many people are not fasting as who are.

So if there was an invasion, I'm pretty sure everyone would say "Okay, let's not skip lunch today, and we'll worry about this when it's over."

[Elendil's Heir]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

I doubt The Prophet foresaw the advent of 24-hour 7-Elevens.

Or vampires.

[Anaamika]

My friends - Muslims in Michigan, coincidentally enough - often gained weight during Ramadan, because they were eating too much at night.

[bldysabba]

Originally Posted by Bridget Burke

One of the authors appears to be Muslim.

Bhashkar Mazumder is, in all probability, not a Muslim. Mazumder is, AFAIK, not an Islamic name, I think it is Bengali Hindu.

[Monty]

You can't suspend Ramadan any more than you can suspend February. Ramadan is a month. Now, fasting, on the other hand, is a religious observance.

Regarding the bit about pregnant women fasting when they should be exempt: I suspect that this might very well be like what I've seen with some members of other faiths. Even when their religious leaders tell them that they are exempt, or in some cases even prohibited, from fasting, some members still fast. Maybe they do it out of habit, maybe they do it because they think they know better than "that young whippersnapper rabbi/priest/bishop/imam/etc.," or maybe they do it because their parents will castigate them for not following the religious rules to a T as the parents incorrectly interpret the rules.

[Quartz]

Originally Posted by Quartz

Perhaps a silly extension, but do Muslims working the night shift during Ramadan fast from dusk until dawn?

I happened to be speaking to someone in Abu Dhabi just now and asked this. The answer is that no they don't. Indeed working at night is preferred as it's 45 degrees there right now.

[Siam Sam]

And just to say, we're well into Ramadan, but the Muslim separatists in our deep South have been shooting and bombing like there's no tomorrow. I believe nine policemen were shot dead in one day.

[Siam Sam]

Missed the Edit window: And here's today's attack. Or one of them.

[Darth Panda]

Originally Posted by Monty

You can't suspend Ramadan any more than you can suspend February.

I can suspend February if I want to - it's in the Constitution. Stop trying to trample my 9th Amendment rights!

[AK84]

Originally Posted by even sven

It's perfectly okay to screw up on Ramadan. Most people do at some point or another- I've seen more than one faster mindlessly eat a piece of candy and then pull an "Ohhhhhhh shit!" "

A few days ago. I ordered from the orderly at work. And biscuits. I was very busy at the time. He brought them. I drank the tea. And had a couple of the biscuits. Only then I realised. Its no big deal. Well it is, but more of a "damn that was stupid of me" than a "I am going to hell"

Originally Posted by Hari Seldon

In 1999, the Moslem students at McGill were upset because they were to take their December final exams during Ramadan. In Montreal in December, the sun rises around 7:35 and sets around 4:15, so fasting requires only skipping lunch. My attitude would have been suck it up or ignore Ramadan, but the university authorities were concerned enough to make some accommodation. It would have been different had there been exams in June, when there are more than 15 hours of daylight

Your attitude is what I think would go in most muslim majority countries. I know I have given exams when fasting. And done quite well.

In other news. Its nearly 6 pm now and an hour to go. Somebody please kill me now.

[Siam Sam]

And to mark the end of Ramadan, 10 men torched a Honda dealership in our deep South early this morning. (The managing director of the dealership had a car bomb go off in front of a hotel he owns earlier this month.) It's been a particularly violent Ramadan down that way this year, so no, Ramadan does not have to interfere with insurgencies and such.

[robardin]

Originally Posted by even sven

Ramadan is a spiritual exercise and a time for community bonding. It's not something God requires in the sense that an angry god might require a virgin to be sacrificed to the volcano.

But... How can we afford to take that chance, now that you've raised this issue?!

[FuzzyOgre]

Originally Posted by KarlGauss

Not eating for 16 hours, especially by a pregnant woman with high metabolic demands can lead to ketone production by the body. Ketones cross the placenta. And, they are teratogenic (link is only one of many, many references including those on human teratogenesis).

As an aside, the placenta only becomes active after 2-3 months.

[Chronos]

I've heard (no cite, sorry) that violence in Muslim nations tends to follow a cycle of increasing when Ramadan falls in the summer and decreasing when it falls in the winter. The hypothesis is that the longer fasts make people more disagreeable.