Is hemp economically viable?

[Stoneburg]

In discussions about cannabis sometimes the argument veers into reasoning about whether industrial hemp is or would be economically viable, if laws were more permitting. This would then create an incitament for the theoretical(?) competitors, such as paper, oil and cotton industries. Of course the threat only has to be percieved to be an incitament, and an incitament might also be ignored. So two questions:

1. Are some sort of hemp-based industries viable economically assuming a fair playing field?

2. Is there an incitament, and if so does it have effect?

[Arkcon]

Start with what Cecil has put in a column: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/...ental-problems Some of what he wrote years ago may touch on some of, ( I recognize not all) of what you're wondering.

[clairobscur]

Hemp can be cultivated in France. And France is the main producer in Europe with some dozens of thousand tons/year. IOW, almost nothing.

It's used for high-end horse litters, insulation, high quality paper and a variety of other minor specialized uses. '

So, I guess it's not very viable. I looked at the site of the association of hemp producers and of course they explain how great a product it is (for some reason they argue that it should be a component of concrete). They also state that it grows easily with a high yield. Still, if it were such an useful and profitable product, I assume it would be grown in much larger quantities.

[Musicat]

Originally Posted by Stoneburg

...incitament...incitament...incitament... incitament...

Do you mean incentive? Like maybe a subsidy or tax break?

[njtt]

I hear there are people who make quite a lot of money from it.

I, also, do not know what "incitament" means. I did look it up -

Originally posted by The Free Dictionary:
incitament
subst. n incitament () [ɪnsɪtɑ'ment] faktor som stimulerer, impuls
Medbestemmelse er et incitament til økt innsats.

- but I am none the wiser. Are you Norwegian?

[florez]

I bought some hemp shoes once many years ago, and they are actually still in great shape, which I assume is because hemp is a very strong fiber.

IMO that means the shoes do not wear out so fast, thus "planned obsolescence" (which is good for consumer economy) is not going to happen as soon say compared to a less durable fiber.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is that not an economical disadvantage?

[fumster]

Originally Posted by florez

I bought some hemp shoes once many years ago, and they are actually still in great shape, which I assume is because hemp is a very strong fiber.

IMO that means the shoes do not wear out so fast, thus "planned obsolescence" (which is good for consumer economy) is not going to happen as soon say compared to a less durable fiber.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is that not an economical disadvantage?

That's just idiotic.

[kp_72110]

Hemp seed as a food source is a very healthy nutritional food supplement. However, it cannot be legally manufactured in the USA. And any hemp seed sold here cannot be viable for growing.

As a food source it is incredible what it contains in nutrients; protein, Omegas, etc. See this Hemp Nutrition Listing
It can be legally bought/sold AFAIK anywhere in the USA but cannot be produced here. Once again as long as it is not viable for growing. And contrary to what some may believe will not cause a positive drug test for THC. As far as supplements go though it is always a good idea to make sure you choose a reputable source.

The nutritional value alone of hemp seed should make it a more viable incentive. I can see the Infomercials now. Only this time they would be telling the truth. It's the unfounded fear of cannabis in this country that hinders its legitimacy.

[Mangetout]

Hemp is a moderately useful plant - but the claims made about it (usually) by Marijuana advocates are just plain ridiculous; the plant they describe would be actually miraculous, if it existed.

I've never really quite understood what they hope to gain by promoting the cultivation of non-psychoactive cannabis, but maybe logic and coherence is not the right thing to hope for, given the context.

[florez]

Originally Posted by fumster

That's just idiotic.

Maybe I read to much Vance Packard in my youth, but IMO in many respects waste and obsolescence is one of the economic foundations of Capitalism. So if consumption is a driving force in the economy, would it not follow that a long lasting durable product (for example hemp clothes and shoes-in this case) would be a disadvantage economically?

[FoieGrasIsEvil]

Originally Posted by florez

Maybe I read to much Vance Packard in my youth, but IMO in many respects waste and obsolescence is one of the economic foundations of Capitalism. So if consumption is a driving force in the economy, would it not follow that a long lasting durable product (for example hemp clothes and shoes-in this case) would be a disadvantage economically?

Maybe not, if you simply charged a hell of a lot more for it than a comparable non-hemp product.

[yabob]

Originally Posted by kp_72110

...
The nutritional value alone of hemp seed should make it a more viable incentive. I can see the Infomercials now. Only this time they would be telling the truth. It's the unfounded fear of cannabis in this country that hinders its legitimacy.

There's another factor - does it taste any good? I tried some hemp cereal. Meh - I'll stick to bran cereals, which have an established case for nutritional benefits as well, and which I actually like. I suspect a lot of mainstream consumers would sum it up with some critique like "It tastes like ass.".

[jtgain]

Originally Posted by Mangetout

I've never really quite understood what they hope to gain by promoting the cultivation of non-psychoactive cannabis, but maybe logic and coherence is not the right thing to hope for, given the context.

My understanding is that on a flyover, the DEA can't tell the difference between non-psychoactive hemp, and regular tall weed plants ripe for the smoking. If that's the case, then regular marijuana could be grown and no search warrant could be issued on the flyover because it just as easily could be hemp growing. No probable cause for a warrant.

So I've heard.

[dracoi]

Originally Posted by florez

Maybe I read to much Vance Packard in my youth, but IMO in many respects waste and obsolescence is one of the economic foundations of Capitalism. So if consumption is a driving force in the economy, would it not follow that a long lasting durable product (for example hemp clothes and shoes-in this case) would be a disadvantage economically?

No, it doesn't follow. There are numerous viable strategies in capitalism Some of those strategies are to sell cheap products that fall apart or become obsolete. However, it is also a viable strategy to sell a premium product that lasts a long time.

For a mass-market example: cars are now offering 10-year warranties and the age of cars on the road is much older than 20 years years ago. Your argument would suggest this is a disadvantage to the car companies, but the reality is that higher demand exists for a car that lasts longer.

For a more on-topic example: the only place I'll buy shoes any more is SAS. Yeah, they're on the order of $150+ a pair... but I'll get 5 years of use out of them as nice shoes that I wear to the office, and another 5 as casual shoes to wear around home. SAS may be no threat to the mass market, but they're certainly a viable business model. (The fact that you can get 10+ years out of leather means that hemp doesn't have a particular advantage in the longevity department.)

[florez]

Originally Posted by dracoi

No, it doesn't follow. There are numerous viable strategies in capitalism Some of those strategies are to sell cheap products that fall apart or become obsolete. However, it is also a viable strategy to sell a premium product that lasts a long time.

For a mass-market example: cars are now offering 10-year warranties and the age of cars on the road is much older than 20 years years ago. Your argument would suggest this is a disadvantage to the car companies, but the reality is that higher demand exists for a car that lasts longer.

For a more on-topic example: the only place I'll buy shoes any more is SAS. Yeah, they're on the order of $150+ a pair... but I'll get 5 years of use out of them as nice shoes that I wear to the office, and another 5 as casual shoes to wear around home. SAS may be no threat to the mass market, but they're certainly a viable business model. (The fact that you can get 10+ years out of leather means that hemp doesn't have a particular advantage in the longevity department.)

Thank you for fighting my ignorance.

[Polycarp]

One itemn nmot yet mentioned which was very important in the past, and could be again with oil prices climbing, is that it is (TTBOMK) the only natural fiber with the right physical characteristics (I presume tensile strength) for making rope which floats. Today with "there's a polymer for every need" this is nowhere as important as it once was -- but it could be again.

[Shodan]

I suspect the industrial uses of "hemp" are somewhat similar to the medical uses of marijuana - mostly a combination of wishful thinking, marketing hype, and exaggeration by folks who want the stuff around so they can get wasted.

As an intoxicant? Sure, it would be mighty viable. For anything else? Fringe markets at best, as clairobscur mentions.

Regards,
Shodan

[Johanna]

Hemp Plus granola is absolutely the best-tasting granola I've ever had. It used to be my daily staff of life. But then I decided that eating prepared breakfast cereal for breakfast was not economically viable compared to say oatmeal or bread or pancakes homemade from scratch. But I sure love Hemp Plus granola.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by Shodan

I suspect the industrial uses of "hemp" are somewhat similar to the medical uses of marijuana - mostly a combination of wishful thinking, marketing hype, and exaggeration by folks who want the stuff around so they can get wasted.

I agree completely. But you make it sound like a bad thing.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by kp_72110

Hemp seed as a food source is a very healthy nutritional food supplement. However, it cannot be legally manufactured in the USA. And any hemp seed sold here cannot be viable for growing.
...

The nutritional value alone of hemp seed should make it a more viable incentive. I can see the Infomercials now. Only this time they would be telling the truth. It's the unfounded fear of cannabis in this country that hinders its legitimacy.

Quite clearly it isn't.

Hemp production is legal in dozens of countries. The US imports other food including grains, pulses and meats from as far away as Australia and New Zealand: the other side of the freakin' world.

If hemp seed as a food source was economically viable then it would simply be imported from somewhere else. If the US can import low value foods such as barley then it could sure as hell import supposedly high value foods such as hemp seed.

The fact that it isn't imported in more than trivial quantities is all the evidence that is required to prove that it isn't economically viable.

[JFLuvly]

I suspect the industrial uses of "hemp" are somewhat similar to the medical uses of marijuana - mostly a combination of wishful thinking, marketing hype, and exaggeration by folks who want the stuff around so they can get wasted.

I don't suppose you would like to share a cite for that comment, particularly the part about medical marijuana.

[Ferret Herder]

Originally Posted by kp_72110

As a food source it is incredible what it contains in nutrients; protein, Omegas, etc. See this Hemp Nutrition Listing

Soybeans are arguably superior, containing more protein, fewer calories, way less fat, and more fiber, though admittedly lacking in Omega-3's. Mix in some flaxseed and you're good to go. Plus I know both of those taste good.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by Blake

Quite clearly it isn't.

Hemp production is legal in dozens of countries. The US imports other food including grains, pulses and meats from as far away as Australia and New Zealand: the other side of the freakin' world.

If hemp seed as a food source was economically viable then it would simply be imported from somewhere else. If the US can import low value foods such as barley then it could sure as hell import supposedly high value foods such as hemp seed.

The fact that it isn't imported in more than trivial quantities is all the evidence that is required to prove that it isn't economically viable.

Right same with hemp as cloth. Mind you, I disagree in that Hemp is economically viable- but only as a niche market.

It's not regressive US laws that make it so, it's just economics.

[Blake]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

Right same with hemp as cloth. Mind you, I disagree in that Hemp is economically viable- but only as a niche market.

Well, yeah, OK. Hemp is economically viable in the same way that handmade clothes are economically viable and transporting goods by horse-drawn wagons is economically viable. These things are viable in the sense that some people will pay a premium to have them done. They are not viable in the more usual sense of being competitive against any alternatives in the open market.

It's not regressive US laws that make it so, it's just economics.

And quality. It may be possible to economically make airplanes out of hemp, but the quality is so crap that nobody would want one if there were alternative available. Even at premium prices hemp can't compete in most markets because it isn't very good at anything. It's a crop that is mediocre for all sorts of things, which makes it ideal or subsistence farmers and worthless industrial farming in a world with a highly developed trade network.

[DrDeth]

Originally Posted by Blake

Well, yeah, OK. Hemp is economically viable in the same way that handmade clothes are economically viable and transporting goods by horse-drawn wagons is economically viable. These things are viable in the sense that some people will pay a premium to have them done. They are not viable in the more usual sense of being competitive against any alternatives in the open market..

Apparently hemp is the best stuff for sailcloth. But still- a niche market.

[yabob]

Originally Posted by DrDeth

Apparently hemp is the best stuff for sailcloth. But still- a niche market.

That may have been true historically, but I find it really hard to believe that any natural fiber is better than modern synthetics such as Kevlar, let alone the more exotic materials used in top class racing yachts.

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by JFLuvly

I don't suppose you would like to share a cite for that comment, particularly the part about medical marijuana.

We discussed the subject of medical marijuana in this thread, and IIRC you were a participant in the discussion. Several cites there - I won't repost them, but the consensus seems to be what I said - marijuana's uses as a medicine are limited and overhyped.

Regards,
Shodan

[ratatoskK]

I saw hemp granola in Whole Foods this week. It looked just like bags of you_know_what.

[astorian]

Even IF it were 100% true (it's not) that hemp disappeared in the United States solely because the evil William Randolph Hearst campaigned against it, wouldn't dozens of OTHER countries have continued to grow massive quantities of the stuff, if it were truly the miracle crop its advocates insist it is?

Hearst had no sway in Europe or Asia or South America. Why didn't huge numbers of farmers there keep growing it?

[Procrustus]

Originally Posted by jtgain

My understanding is that on a flyover, the DEA can't tell the difference between non-psychoactive hemp, and regular tall weed plants ripe for the smoking. If that's the case, then regular marijuana could be grown and no search warrant could be issued on the flyover because it just as easily could be hemp growing. No probable cause for a warrant.

So I've heard.

Nope. Hemp plants are grown very close together, with tall thin stalks up to 12 feet high. Marijuana plants are short and bushy, to encourage budding.

This is the best article if you're interested

[jbaker]

I'm surprised to see no mention of rope, which I would have thought to be historically the most important use of hemp. I don't know if hemp would still be economically viable as a source of natural fiber for rope, though.

[TriPolar]

If not for the prohibition in this country, it's possible the use of hemp might have developed more. Hemp flocking is probably as good as cotton or other fibers for instance. But that would only be a secondary market assuming there were enough primary uses for hemp. The fiber doesn't have any magical properties that would make it a strong competitor against other natural and synthetic fibers. The magic doesn't come from the fiber.

[Shodan]

Originally Posted by TriPolar

I agree completely. But you make it sound like a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing (IMO) to legalize the stuff so people can get wasted. It's a bad thing to pretend it's good for much else. Again, IMO.

One ought not to push marijuana (for instance) as an anti-nausea agent if there are better alternatives available.

If it were up to me, I would make the stuff legal to cultivate, use or sell, for anyone over 21, but not because I thought there was a huge untapped market for hemp clothes or breakfast cereal. I just think people should be able to get toasted if they want to, and it's probably better for you than being an alcoholic.

But it's not up to me.

Regards,
Shodan

[Telperion]

Originally Posted by jbaker

I'm surprised to see no mention of rope, which I would have thought to be historically the most important use of hemp. I don't know if hemp would still be economically viable as a source of natural fiber for rope, though.

The reason we don't use hemp rope these days is mainly that nylon is lighter and stronger and doesn't rot, so it wouldn't be economically feasible to produce hemp rope even if the raw materials can be had for next to nothing.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by Shodan

It's not a bad thing (IMO) to legalize the stuff so people can get wasted. It's a bad thing to pretend it's good for much else. Again, IMO.

Actually I do agree. Dishonesty isn't a good thing. But until this thread I hadn't thought of it as anything more than a joke. However, if people actually believe that the useful qualities of hemp are more than political artifacts, then it's not a good idea.

[yabob]

Originally Posted by Telperion

The reason we don't use hemp rope these days is mainly that nylon is lighter and stronger and doesn't rot, so it wouldn't be economically feasible to produce hemp rope even if the raw materials can be had for next to nothing.

Other synthetics like polypropylene and Dacron are used for various purposes as well. Preventing rot is why hemp ropes were tarred, which is messy and inconvenient. Even considering natural fibers, manila is more resistant to water damage, and was often preferred to hemp. Manila may sometimes be called "manila hemp" but it is actually a different plant (a relative of the banana, actually).

[Spectre of Pithecanthropus]

Originally Posted by jtgain

My understanding is that on a flyover, the DEA can't tell the difference between non-psychoactive hemp, and regular tall weed plants ripe for the smoking. If that's the case, then regular marijuana could be grown and no search warrant could be issued on the flyover because it just as easily could be hemp growing. No probable cause for a warrant.

So I've heard.

What Procrutes said, on preview.


Legalizing fiber hemp, from the perspective of MJ legalization supporters, could conceivably help to move all cannabis towards greater general acceptability.

[Stoneburg]

Originally Posted by njtt

I hear there are people who make quite a lot of money from it.

I, also, do not know what "incitament" means. I did look it up -

- but I am none the wiser. Are you Norwegian?

Ah. Incitament is the swedish (you were not far off) word for incentive, thanks for fighting my ignorance w/r/t english.

Originally Posted by TriPolar

Actually I do agree. Dishonesty isn't a good thing. But until this thread I hadn't thought of it as anything more than a joke. However, if people actually believe that the useful qualities of hemp are more than political artifacts, then it's not a good idea.

That's why I asked. I'm in favor of legalising both hemp and cannabis, but I don't want to believe dishonest claims just because they support my standpoint.

[Chronos]

Quoth clairobscur:

I looked at the site of the association of hemp producers and of course they explain how great a product it is (for some reason they argue that it should be a component of concrete).

Concrete is great for compressive strength, but it's rather lacking in tensile strength (meaning it's fairly easy to pull it apart). So the overall structural usefulness of concrete can be improved by mixing in fibers of something with high tensile strength. I doubt that hemp would really be the best choice of fiber for that job, but that's the idea.

[Gorsnak]

Originally Posted by Chronos

So the overall structural usefulness of concrete can be improved by mixing in fibers of something with high tensile strength.

Like rebar.

[TriPolar]

Originally Posted by Gorsnak

Like rebar.

Actually with hemp if would reduce the weight and increase the insulating properties of concrete. It would probably work best added as microfibers, becoming part of the aggregate, rather than using large ropes to to increase the tensile strength as a substructure the way rebar does. It probably wouldn't reduce the need for rebar by much. And of course it couldn't be used to prestress concrete the way rebar does.