12 people shot dead at BATMAN movie screening in Denver.

[Kolga]

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

Respectfully disagree. I don't think CT's go as far as we fear. Not really. Truthers and Birthers are on a national level, but this will be out of people's minds in a couple of weeks.

The local political fallout I can see - so I assume they'll ask for the death penalty - but they have to get there first.

I have no idea who those gentlemen are that you mentioned and I'm pretty well-read, but I stay out of CT threads and discussions. I think most Americans are the same way.

I think you're wrong. This is guns and possibly neuroscience research and guns and maybe autism (caused by vaccines) and guns and mental illness pleas and guns. It may not reach the level of the Truthers/Birthers, but it'll become a part of the stable of CTs that get routinely trotted out regarding any of those issues.

And Joe Scarborough is a morning host on MSNBC, so whether or not you know who he is, he's not exactly an unknown figure in American TV.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

I'm generally anti-death penalty on the grounds that too many innocent people have been executed, not out of any moral qualms.

As am I.

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

In cases like, say, John Wayne Gacy, where there's simply zero room for doubt and the circumstances are over-the-top grisly, good riddance.

Surely everyone who votes the kill the guy in a trial believes there is "zero room for doubt."

[The Great Sun Jester]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

I'm generally anti-death penalty on the grounds that too many innocent people have been executed, not out of any moral qualms. In cases like, say, John Wayne Gacy, where there's simply zero room for doubt and the circumstances are over-the-top grisly, good riddance. If they're not going to use the death penalty for someone like this guy, then honestly, it really is time to abolish it completely (assuming he's not found to be insane).

I'm generally anti-death penalty on moral grounds but I'd be willing to flex on folks like Gacy. But this guy--the actions alone are so over-the top as to almost guarantee he was a loony. Serial killer types express an array of intimately, personally evil behavior repeated over long periods of time. This Joker, though, was different. The scenario didn't depend on him actually seeing the result of what he was doing, he wasn't slowly pulling out people's eyes and biting them off the stalks, he was shooting into an object (essentially into a smoke screen, behind which were screams)--no intimacy with the victims. When confronted, he made no attempt to escape or mislead law enforcement or in any other way evade arrest as far as I know. Whatever his motivation, he knew he needed to be arrested, at least after the fact, and that it was right he should be arrested. My point: bad behavior with recognition it was bad, if not remorse. He needs to be removed, but he's not demonstrated by this single action that he lacks humanity.

[PunditLisa]

Two things shout out at me:

1) His decision to withdraw from classes a few weeks ago.
2) His decision to tell police officers that his apartment was booby trapped.

Both seem like positive indicators for sanity.

I hinted at this earlier, but it boggles my mind that someone capable of this could be rational enough to formally withdraw from classes. I mean, if you're planning to execute innocent people in a few weeks, why bother to withdraw?

What is the reasoning for telling the cops that his apartment was rigged with explosives? Is it because they spoke to him face-to-face and that led him to take mercy on them? Was it his way of thanking them for taking him alive?

Very, very disturbing case.

[Simplicio]

Just to play amateur psychologist:

Originally Posted by PunditLisa

Two things shout out at me:

1) His decision to withdraw from classes a few weeks ago.

Not sure that's really a sign that he was planning the attack that far out. Seems possible he withdrew due to a deteriorating mental condition which then later caused his attack. As you say, withdrawing from classes doesn't really do him any good from a "sane" perspective: no ones going to care that he missed his midterms once he's murdered twelve people.

2) His decision to tell police officers that his apartment was booby trapped.

Setting booby traps seems to be not uncommon for people with paranoid delusions. Seems possible the traps weren't really part of any overarching plan for his attack, but just something he'd set up in his apartment to defend himself against whatever enemies he imagined he had.

I'm just guessing from the tidbits in the news, of course. Between the defence and prosecution, I'm sure he'll be examined by half the shrinks in Colorado and then we'll know one way or another.

[Lumpy]

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

How could he be remotely sane?!

Legal insanity is often a different matter from what we commonly call insanity. Our criminal justice system is based on the presumption that people have free will and are morally responsible for their actions. The courts have consistantly ruled that sociopathy or personality disorders aren't legal insanity- insane motives aren't legal insanity. The rule is generally that a person must either have been unable to understand his actions, or that he felt compelled by an "irresistable impulse". In general, if someone is obviously gibberingly insane, they're usually found incompetent to stand trial- the standard there being if they are incapable of assisting in their own defense.

[The Great Sun Jester]

Originally Posted by PunditLisa

What is the reasoning for telling the cops that his apartment was rigged with explosives?

I am not a psycho killer but I have exhibited delusional behavior in the past. This dude is just some guy in the news, so nobody here really knows what his deal is, but I can tell you delusion can become an obsession and an irresistable compulsion. You know you're right, you know a certain action needs to be taken or that you just really want to do this one little thing--no harm in it, right? A part of you might object: no, don't screw that woman/steal that thing/send that email/post that post, etc. but it is easily drowned out by the relentless drive that comes from an obsession. It's terrifying, you're at your wit's end, and eventually you're completely helpless and miserable, unable to focus on anything else.

Once the deed is done: release (think about what your sex drive does after you finally get a piece). The mental noise stops and you find yourself in a very awkward situation. The drives that got you to where you are are all gone, you have no way to explain yourself because even you don't believe you should have done what you did, that's followed swiftly by guilt/humiliation/embarassment which can take on another life all its own and next thing you know you really are on the freeway pushing 100 and looking for just the right barrier while screaming at yourself like two separate people--both presenting very logical arguments about why you should/shouldn't snuff it.

But back to release. After the initial carnage I could totally see hating the sonofabitch (me) that just ran amok in the theatre. I could see cooperating to get me put away and to keep anyone else from getting hurt. I don't read this guy as sane in the least. Periodically lucid, perhaps, but by no means has he mastered himself to the point where he can guarantee safe behavior.

[rocking chair]

Originally Posted by lieu

The youngest son of an old and dear family we've been close to for fourty years now was in the Aurora theater with two of his four kids. Gordon Cowden is gone and once again the world makes no sense. He, like his parents, brothers and sister is, or now was, just an incredibly strong, gentle, admirable person. Quiet, unassuming but with a wonderful sense of humor and intellect. His family writes that he was a true Texas gentleman and always intent on doing the right thing no matter the issue or cost. That's about as well put as it can be and his loss is a painful thing to behold. You'll probably hear the least about him as they're private, quiet people but for those of us that knew him and know what the undeserving family must now face, the pain goes to our very soul and beyond. I'll be at the funeral Friday. I don't expect it will answer any questions or heal any wounds but I do think the strength of all the others there will allow us to focus on all that was so good and admirable in him and give focus to what is worthy of trying to emmulate. Gordon's death is an enormous loss to everyone that knew him and finding where to put that, making sense of why he's gone is something we may struggle with for years to come if not forever. It's almost impossible to process the fact he's
just one of so many taken from us Saturday morning.

lieu, please extend our sympathies to his family. may his memory be eternal.

[Kolak of Twilo]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

Setting booby traps seems to be not uncommon for people with paranoid delusions. Seems possible the traps weren't really part of any overarching plan for his attack, but just something he'd set up in his apartment to defend himself against whatever enemies he imagined he had.

While always possible, I think the fact he left the apartment unlocked and had loud music start playing around the time he left indicates he was trying to lure someone to open the door and set off a massive explosion.

[rocking chair]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

I'm generally anti-death penalty on the grounds that too many innocent people have been executed, not out of any moral qualms. In cases like, say, John Wayne Gacy, where there's simply zero room for doubt and the circumstances are over-the-top grisly, good riddance. If they're not going to use the death penalty for someone like this guy, then honestly, it really is time to abolish it completely (assuming he's not found to be insane).

i believe that a concrete cell at florence for life is a good sentence.

the death penalty is rather cruel to the families of victims. years and years of court appearances, time, and going through testimony over and over, it can take years, decades even.

put him in a cell in florence, toss the key, and never hear his name again.

[Kolga]

Originally Posted by lieu

The youngest son of an old and dear family we've been close to for fourty years now was in the Aurora theater with two of his four kids. Gordon Cowden is gone and once again the world makes no sense.

I'm so sorry for your friends' loss.

[asterion]

Originally Posted by Kolga

I think you're wrong. This is guns and possibly neuroscience research and guns and maybe autism (caused by vaccines) and guns and mental illness pleas and guns. It may not reach the level of the Truthers/Birthers, but it'll become a part of the stable of CTs that get routinely trotted out regarding any of those issues.

And Joe Scarborough is a morning host on MSNBC, so whether or not you know who he is, he's not exactly an unknown figure in American TV.

Ah, Joe Scarborough. The man with a dead aide in his office.

[Farmer Jane]

Originally Posted by Kolga

I think you're wrong. This is guns and possibly neuroscience research and guns and maybe autism (caused by vaccines) and guns and mental illness pleas and guns. It may not reach the level of the Truthers/Birthers, but it'll become a part of the stable of CTs that get routinely trotted out regarding any of those issues.

And Joe Scarborough is a morning host on MSNBC, so whether or not you know who he is, he's not exactly an unknown figure in American TV.

Well, I don't watch TV (except for when specifically turn it on for the news and then shut if off in disgust :P) so I don't know. I'll take your word for it. I think there's more of a local fallout than anything.

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

As am I.

But how can you be pro death penalty 'sometimes'? I feel like it's either all or nothing. I know a lot of people are okay with it except for when it really fails us, but then what if some rapist/murderer is put on trial and is sentenced to death and it's later found he is innocent? It happens. How sure is 'sure'? Obviously he's guilty of the crime, but he's a sick man.

[cochrane]

Originally Posted by lieu

The youngest son of an old and dear family we've been close to for fourty years now was in the Aurora theater with two of his four kids. Gordon Cowden is gone and once again the world makes no sense. He, like his parents, brothers and sister is, or now was, just an incredibly strong, gentle, admirable person. Quiet, unassuming but with a wonderful sense of humor and intellect. His family writes that he was a true Texas gentleman and always intent on doing the right thing no matter the issue or cost. That's about as well put as it can be and his loss is a painful thing to behold. You'll probably hear the least about him as they're private, quiet people but for those of us that knew him and know what the undeserving family must now face, the pain goes to our very soul and beyond. I'll be at the funeral Friday. I don't expect it will answer any questions or heal any wounds but I do think the strength of all the others there will allow us to focus on all that was so good and admirable in him and give focus to what is worthy of trying to emmulate. Gordon's death is an enormous loss to everyone that knew him and finding where to put that, making sense of why he's gone is something we may struggle with for years to come if not forever. It's almost impossible to process the fact he's just one of so many taken from us Saturday morning.

Thank you for posting this, lieu. You helped make this more personal for us and more real. Your friends have my sympathy for the loss of their son, as do all the victims of this tragic crime. I know how distressed you must be at the news, and you have my sympathy, also.

[Farmer Jane]

And so it begins.

Alleged shooter's mom: Reports she knew son was troubled were wrong

Lawyer Lisa Damiani said her client Arlene Holmes knew nothing about the mass murder in Denver when she was awakened about 5:45 a.m. PST Friday by ABC News. Damiani she was asked if she was Arlene Holmes, and if her son was James Holmes. Reading a statement from Arlene, Damiani said "I said 'Yes, you have the right person.' But I was talking about myself."

[Le Ministre de l'au-delà]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

The report doesn't really provide much evidence that copycat murders are an actual issue. There aren't actually that many if these incidents, and of the ones that occur I haven't seen any evidence they were inspired by their predecessors. As a general rule, some combination of mental illness and strange political views seem to be the cause.

I think the whole fear of "copycats" is just another example of the urge people have to pin these incidents on some flawed social institution. Some people like to blame the violent videogames, or lack of religious instruction in schools, or whatever.

And some people want to blame the news media. Cries of encouraging "Copycats" gives them a mechanism. That by reporting these incidents "wrong", the media is creating the next mass murderer. I think people making that claim need to come up with some actual evidence that showing a killers face, or using his name or whatever has actually inspired another murderer.

It is interesting you bring this up now. I've just this moment finished reading Malcolm Gladwell's book 'The Tipping Point', and the above link had already reminded me of the passage on teen smoking. (Quick summary: most of the strategies to reduce teen smoking were having the opposite of the intended effect because they were unintentionally glamourizing smoking.)

In the Afterword to the January 2002 first e-book edition, pp. 179 - 184, 'Understanding the Age of Isolation' deals with the aftermath of the Columbine shooting. Here is a brief quotation

The school massacre at Columbine High in Littleton, Colorado happened on April 20, 1999. In the twenty-two months that followed, there were nineteen separate incidents of school violence accross the United States - ten of them foiled, fortunately, before anyone got hurt - each patterned, almost eerily, on the Columbine shootings. Seth Trickey, a seventh grader in Fort Gibson, Oklahoma, who pulled out a 9mm semiautomatic handgun and fired fifteen rounds into a group of classmates in December of 1999, was so obsessed with the Columbine shootings that before the incident he was receiving psychological counseling. A seventeen year old at Millbrae, California, was arrested after threatening to 'do a Columbine' at his school. Police found an arsenal of fifteen guns and rifles in his home.

He continues on from there; I present that as a cite that copycats are a concern.

And as far as I'm concerned, all these loser shooters are copycats - I would be very interested in pursuing what the forensic psychiatrist points up as 'the wrong way to report on these mass shootings'. To what extent are they influenced by what they know of how previous shooters operated? Most importantly, are the news reports accidentally glamourizing mass shootings through their reportage?

[PunditLisa]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

I am not a psycho killer but I have exhibited delusional behavior in the past.

Thank you for the insight. It helps.

[MeanOldLady]

Originally Posted by Gangster Octopus

Page 89 of the The Dark Knight Returns

I don't know what all that Joker business was about, but when I saw him with orange hair, I immediately thought of this.

Originally Posted by Zsofia

I saw a news story in the local paper that 50 people have called the local theater (here in South Carolina) they interviewed because they were concerned about safety at yesterday's movie showings.

WTF did these 50 people ASK on the phone? "Uh, do you have Bat-Masked-Gunman-Repellent-Spray available for guests?" "Is this guaranteed to be a gunplay-free showing?"

"We actually have a shooting in progress, ma'am. You might want to try back in an hour."


lieu, that is terrible and I am sorry.

[carnivorousplant]

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

But how can you be pro death penalty 'sometimes'?

I'm not.

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by The Hamster King

On the other hand, it may just be cheaper to kill him.

I've seen studies showing it's actually cheaper to keep someone in prison for decades than to put him on Death Row. All the extra security and automatic appeals etc.

Originally Posted by Kolga

If this guy is found to be incompetent to stand trial due to mental issues, all hell is going to break loose.

I don't believe a finding of insanity should be based on supposed popular opinion.

Originally Posted by carnivorousplant

Surely everyone who votes the kill the guy in a trial believes there is "zero room for doubt."

Well, there's zero room for doubt and then there's zero room for doubt. Ya know what I mean?

[Farmer Jane]

Warner Bros. is donating to the Aurora fund.

I just donated to this girl's fund. Her story was...wow. A little glurgy, but jeebs! Talk about odds.

[Farmer Jane]

Warner Bros. is donating to the Aurora fund.

I just donated to this girl's fund. Her story was...wow. A little glurgy, but jeebs! Talk about odds.

The doctor explains that Petra’s brain has had from birth a small “defect” in it. It is a tiny channel of fluid running through her skull…Only a CAT scan would catch it, and Petra would have never noticed it.

But in Petra’s case, the shotgun buck shot…enters her brain from the exact point of this defect. Like a marble through a small tube, the defect channels the bullet from Petra’s nose through her brain. It turns slightly several times, and comes to rest at the rear of her brain. And in the process, the bullet misses all the vital areas of the brain.

[Lumpy]

Originally Posted by Zsofia

I saw a news story in the local paper that 50 people have called the local theater (here in South Carolina) they interviewed because they were concerned about safety at yesterday's movie showings.

WTF did these 50 people ASK on the phone? "Uh, do you have Bat-Masked-Gunman-Repellent-Spray available for guests?" "Is this guaranteed to be a gunplay-free showing?" What possible security questions could you have that the teenage kid who answers the phone at the AMC Googleplex can possibly answer to your satisfaction?

"We've installed automated gunshot-homing turrets in the ceiling, but there was a tragic incident where someone snapped their gum too loud; they're working on it".

[Kolga]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

I don't believe a finding of insanity should be based on supposed popular opinion.

Did I say that it was? I simply stated a fact - public opinion doesn't always recognize the decisions of a court as valid. If this guy is either found incompetent to stand trial, or NGRI (which are two different things), either one is going to create a massive shitstorm of outrage. Just because either of those findings may be legally valid doesn't mean that people won't be pissed off at them.

[Darth Nader]

Where has it been confirmed that he warned folks about his apartment? I'd bet it was more like--

(inside police car)
MANIAC: Whoo! What a rush! I'm the Joker! Say, how many did I take out when my apartment blew up?

The downstairs neighbor's s.o. has family living nearby. Who cares? I only know this because fuck local TV "news".

[joebuck20]

Let the lawsuits commence:

http://gawker.com/5928633/aurora-sho...mment=51243219

(Torrance) Brown claims in his lawsuit that it was negligent of Century 16 not to guard or alarm their emergency doors. Shooting suspect James Holmes reportedly propped open the emergency doors before returning to his vehicle to fetch his weapons.

In addition to the movie theater, Brown has also named Holmes' doctors as defendants for alleged mismanagement of Holmes' as-yet-unconfirmed medical condition.

Brown is also suing Warner Bros., claiming that The Dark Knight Rises was so violent that it delayed the reaction of many moviegoers who thought the shooting was a promotional stunt.

The story also mentions that he escaped unscathed, but is suffering from "extreme trauma."

[Omar Little]

I'm sure that Torrance Brown didn't come up with this theory and idea to sue everyone associated with the incident on his own...some ambulance chaser signed him up as soon as he could.

[Yllaria]

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

Warner Bros. is donating to the Aurora fund.

I just donated to this girl's fund. Her story was...wow. A little glurgy, but jeebs! Talk about odds.

The doctor explains that Petra’s brain has had from birth a small “defect” in it. It is a tiny channel of fluid running through her skull…Only a CAT scan would catch it, and Petra would have never noticed it.

But in Petra’s case, the shotgun buck shot…enters her brain from the exact point of this defect. Like a marble through a small tube, the defect channels the bullet from Petra’s nose through her brain. It turns slightly several times, and comes to rest at the rear of her brain. And in the process, the bullet misses all the vital areas of the brain.

Wow. Reminds me of a smaller crime that happened here ten years ago or so. The owner of a mini-mart was shot in the chest during a robbery. During surgery they found a two-inch aneurism on his aorta. Even with his chest already open, it made the surgery team nervous.

More in line with the basic thread - a message from Batman regarding guns. Appologies if it's already been posted.

[Farmer Jane]

Heh. Victims get a visit from Christian Bale.

That's...kind of awesome.

[Siam Sam]

Man, you really get picked apart when you do something like this. The CNN website was saying he had completely shunned Facebook, Twitter and such websites, but the authorities were working to determine if he had a sex ad up on Adult Friend Finders.

[D-bear]

Originally Posted by D-bear

Just wondering what everyone thought might happen to this facility after all is said and done. They didn't raze Columbine High after the shooting there, but I can kind of understand that one. I actually have tickets to see the 25th anniversary Star Trek:TNG event there on Monday, but there's a snowball's chance of that happening at this point.

The building is fairly new, all stadium seating digital sound and picture, so it's not exactly a given that it'll be closed and torn down. What do the teeming millions say? Would you go there to catch a flick?

The debate begins.

[Broomstick]

My preference (and I fully admit I have no say here, it's just my opinion) would be to re-open it as a theater, but have some sort of plaque or memorial display commemorating the victims.

I do think it should be decided by the surviving victims and the families of the deceased.

[cochrane]

Originally Posted by Farmer Jane

Heh. Victims get a visit from Christian Bale.

That's...kind of awesome.

I was going to post this, too, but was a little late. But yes, I agree. It was a classy act by Bale, almost like something Bruce Wayne would do.

[Omar Little]

Originally Posted by Broomstick

My preference (and I fully admit I have no say here, it's just my opinion) would be to re-open it as a theater, but have some sort of plaque or memorial display commemorating the victims.



I do think it should be decided by the surviving victims and the families of the deceased.

I actually think it should be left completely to the owner to decide what should be done. If the owner is altruistic and wants to give the families the decision, that's their choice. But if the owner wants their to be no mention of the incident on his property that's his right as well.

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

Man, you really get picked apart when you do something like this. The CNN website was saying he had completely shunned Facebook, Twitter and such websites, but the authorities were working to determine if he had a sex ad up on Adult Friend Finders.

I don't know if they ever found anything on Adult Friend Finder, but one report says: " A profile for a man whose name and appearance matched Holmes has been removed from a dating website. Match.com spokesman Matthew Traub on Tuesday confirmed reports on TMZ.com and elsewhere that the profile was posted before the movie theater massacre. ... The profile included the question, 'Will you visit me in prison?' and said, 'I spend a lot of time thinking about the future, mind (equals) blown'."