Do North Koreans actually believe this crap? ("the great Kim Jong Il looked over me")

[KarlGauss]

North Korean weightlifter, Om Yun Chol sets Olympic record.

From the link: "Asked how a man so small could lift a weight so big, Om credited the 'Great Leader' as North Korean athletes often do after great achievements. 'How can any man possibly lift 168kg? I believe the great Kim Jong Il looked over me'."

It's like all those videos of people weeping on the streets following the death of the Dear Playboy Leader last year - is it mass insanity or mass intimidation?

(I suspect it's the latter given that a stay at a labour or re-education camp is the penalty for saying or doing pretty much anything that's not officially approved. But then I have to ask - how did an entire nation learn Oscar-worthy acting skills?)

[AHarris]

Keep in mind that his father was promoted to god-like status in North Korea and he inherited much of that position. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_k...rsonality_cult

Would you think twice if the win had been attributed to God, Allah, etc? Would you wonder if people were weeping in the streets at the death of a well loved religious figure?

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

The system that runs North Korea is, in fact, religious, rather than political.

[aldiboronti]

I think many North Koreans would believe that and frankly you may as well say the same thing of Christians saying 'God looked over me'. One belief is no more absurd than the other from a rationalist viewpoint.

[KarlGauss]

Originally Posted by AHarris

Would you think twice if the win had been attributed to God, Allah, etc? Would you wonder if people were weeping in the streets at the death of a well loved religious figure?

Maybe it's like what you and Bosda say - a religion. I guess one its defining tenets is that their religion's hell is dispersed throughout the country, in the form of the various "re-education" and labour camps. Or maybe the country itself.

ETA: I see that aldiboronti also shares that sentiment. Still, it's one thing to believe in a religion (and its mythic figures) when there's a 2000 year history of the same. But it's another to worship a contemporary political family.

[mutantmoose]

It's true that it is religious. I heard an interesting radio programme about this so no cites but the dictatorship was deliberately based on North Korean traditional religious beliefs which are patriarchal. There was lots of little details whereby the government is framed around the old traditional religion but I can't recall any of them right now. The upshot though is that it may look very odd to an outsider but it all makes more sense to a North Korean.

The people in the radio programme were all North Korean experts and were being very polite but I definitely got the impression they were hinting that the Juche had deliberately and somewhat cynically framed the dictatorship around the religion to make it more acceptable to the masses

[glaeken]

I actually think it makes more sense to worship a living deity. You absolutely know they exist so that is one hurdle down in the whole belief thing.

If you have been indoctrinated your whole life into the idea I don't find it any more odd than any other religious belief. It's far less bat shit insane than Scientology.

[simple homer]

I have been living and working in China for the past 4 years, and most Chinese people that I talk to tell me that Mao is their hero.
Mao supposedly is responsible for the death of 35 million Chinese, but that doesn't stop people from telling me what a great person he was.

[Musicat]

Originally Posted by simple homer

Mao supposedly is responsible for the death of 35 million Chinese, but that doesn't stop people from telling me what a great person he was.

Not unlike YHWH killing everyone on earth except one family in The Great Flood.

[simple homer]

Originally Posted by Musicat

Not unlike YHWH killing everyone on earth except one family in The Great Flood.

There are millions of people alive right now whose parents or grandparents died due to Mao. Not quite the same.

[Musicat]

Originally Posted by simple homer

There are millions of people alive right now whose parents or grandparents died due to Mao. Not quite the same.

Are you saying that Mao's actions are worse or vice versa?

[Starving Artist]

Originally Posted by simple homer

I have been living and working in China for the past 4 years, and most Chinese people that I talk to tell me that Mao is their hero.
Mao supposedly is responsible for the death of 35 million Chinese, but that doesn't stop people from telling me what a great person he was.

Perhaps due to decades of exposure to propaganda like this.

* For some reason the caption doesn't appear with the linked image. It originally read: "Chairman Mao gives us a happy life."

[kanicbird]

I do believe he believes, though as pointed out fear may prompt him to say things that he does not believe. If he does believe it I would say he is more aware then many other people, because what he states I do believe is true and we all have 'gods', some of us in people we turn for strength, wisdom, knowledge, he is just stating his spiritual awareness of his god Kim Jong Il, or alternatively his god 'fear' which would be a demonic god which is forcing him to support Kim Jong Il by saying such things.

So a lot would depend on how you wish to define 'god', which to me can be any being that can be worshiped or turned to in times of trouble, and hence the biblical principal 'men are gods' (not men are mistaken for gods)

[hogarth]

Like kanicbird said, even if he didn't believe it, I don't think he really has the option to go on worldwide television and not praise the glorious North Korean regime.

[Chimera]

North Koreans who go overseas for sporting events are very carefully monitored. To speak to the media and NOT be singing the praises of the Great Leader would be suicidal and bring harm to one's entire family.

[Jackmannii]

Originally Posted by KarlGauss

North Korean weightlifter, Om Yun Chol sets Olympic record.But then I have to ask - how did an entire nation learn Oscar-worthy acting skills?)

Not to mention the acting skills required of their interviewers.

"So, Om, what happens to you if you forget to give credit to the great Kim Jong Il?"

[Earl Snake-Hips Tucker]

Similarly related, the Lisa Ling trip to North Carolina Korea with the team of eye doctors, who were there on a charity mission to do (as I recall) cataract surgery, and restore some vision to a number of the locals.

One by one, after the surgeries, they all praised the portrait of Kim (don't recall which one). When one of them was asked in advance of the surgery what they most looked forward to, the translator responded that they looked forward to seeing (a portrait of) either the Great Leader or the Dear Leader.

It used to be on youtube. Maybe it still is.

[FluffyBob]

Originally Posted by simple homer

I have been living and working in China for the past 4 years, and most Chinese people that I talk to tell me that Mao is their hero.
Mao supposedly is responsible for the death of 35 million Chinese, but that doesn't stop people from telling me what a great person he was.

A Marxist Leninist Saskatchewan farmer I knew (a friend of a friend) was talking of his visit to Cuba years ago and his regrets he did not make more of an effort to meet Castro as he did successfully with Mao when he visited China. I was shocked. I couldn't believe (even) a Marxist would want to shake Mao's hand. He really thought Mao was an admirable personage and my perception of him as a monster was a result of my indoctrination and acceptance of Western lies.

I guess we both made decisions about what we would believe. The difference between us is I guess that I decided long ago that no person of power should be treated as a hero, and I am critical of all leaders. He chose to designate some as saviors and idolize them.

No different than a religious conviction, it required faith and the choice to discount and reject valid questions and evidence.

[raskolnik]

-The useful idiots will always be with us, those who can not see the trouble in their own life, but prefer to blame a democratic process and praise a slave mentalitet instead...they are slaves waiting to die with a smile on the face in some Chomsky, Stakhanovite hell.

[Tom Tildrum]

Originally Posted by Earl Snake-Hips Tucker

One by one, after the surgeries, they all praised the portrait of Kim (don't recall which one). When one of them was asked in advance of the surgery what they most looked forward to, the translator responded that they looked forward to seeing (a portrait of) either the Great Leader or the Dear Leader.

Remember that there isn't much else to look at in North Korea. It tends to be rather drab.

[Vinyl Turnip]

I don't know.... I could stare at their weirdly robotic traffic cops all day.

[Tom Tildrum]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

I don't know.... I could stare at their weirdly robotic traffic cops all day.

The Youtube ad invites me to "Find an Asian wife."

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by aldiboronti

I think many North Koreans would believe that and frankly you may as well say the same thing of Christians saying 'God looked over me'. One belief is no more absurd than the other from a rationalist viewpoint.

As glaeken pointed out, Kim-worship is probably less absurd than most religions. Say what you will about him, nobody disputes that Kim Il-sung and Kim Jong-il were real people. There's no similar consensus about God or Allah or Xenu.

[Rachellelogram]

Can this belief be shown as substantially different than the ancient Egyptians believing that the Pharaoh was a living deity? Modern people, ancient people, they're all just people in the end... if you prevent a group from exposure to outside perspectives for long enough, they'll believe absolutely anything you tell them (or, at the very least, say that they believe absolutely anything, which is indistinguishable from actual belief to foreign observers).

[Vinyl Turnip]

Well, nobody's going to look at that little pudgy bastard in charge today and see a deity, I don't care how many boiled toadstools they've eaten.

[Morgenstern]

The amazing thing is how well fed the NK athletes are. They certainly have a life style that most NK citizens don't have.

[Gukumatz]

Originally Posted by hogarth

Like kanicbird said, even if he didn't believe it, I don't think he really has the option to go on worldwide television and not praise the glorious North Korean regime.

"I want to say thank you to my country for sponsoring my quest to find a public, televised venue in which to ask for political asylum." Doesn't quite roll off the tongue. (And would get his remaining family disappeared, too.)

[samclem]

Moved from General Questions to IMHO.

samclem

[Wesley Clark]

In North Korea they have very strict social hierarchies based on an individuals (and their families) level of fealty to the Kim regime.

So anyone who goes to the olympics is probably someone who has been deeply vetted for his/her obedience to the regime (although this seems based more on stupid things like family history or minor transgressions than anything, at least what I see of it). So there is that.

But do they actually believe it? I don't know. I have heard that when they get to China and they have access to legit media, a lot start to wake up about how the system is worse than bullshit since it is the opposite of reality a good deal of the time. That is what I have heard from refugee stories. But admitting you've been duped by evil sociopaths is hard to admit, so I can see how denial would come up (Stalin had the same issue, people didn't want to admit they were wrong).

[Arrendajo]

Originally Posted by Starving Artist

Perhaps due to decades of exposure to propaganda like this.

* For some reason the caption doesn't appear with the linked image. It originally read: "Chairman Mao gives us a happy life."

That's an interesting poster; it is an early one, definitely pre-cultural revolution and probably pre-dates the Great Leap Forward, so it is from a time when China was recovering from the chaotic war years and before Mao's disasterous policies resulted in millions of deaths.
Yep, 1954.

[KarlGauss]

Originally Posted by Arrendajo

That's an interesting poster; it is an early one, definitely pre-cultural revolution . . .

You bet. After all, there's no way that a more contemporary regime would want to spotlight a three-kid family.

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by Chimera

North Koreans who go overseas for sporting events are very carefully monitored. To speak to the media and NOT be singing the praises of the Great Leader would be suicidal and bring harm to one's entire family.

This is the key point. It explains everything.

[Sunspace]

Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip

I don't know.... I could stare at their weirdly robotic traffic cops all day.

North Korea has traffic!

Originally Posted by KarlGauss

You bet. After all, there's no way that a more contemporary regime would want to spotlight a three-kid family.

Huh. I was marvelling at how much that poster resembles a 1950's-style advertising poster from this side of the Big Pond. The clock, the dress, the furniture: it's got "enjoy the products of your beautiful General Electric kitchen" all over it. The number of children didn't even register...

[Qin Shi Huangdi]

I'm reminded of the scene in Animal Farm where the hens credit Napoleon for laying so many eggs, but I thought that wouldn't happen in reality even in a totalitarian state.

[RandMcnally]

Originally Posted by Earl Snake-Hips Tucker

Similarly related, the Lisa Ling trip to North Carolina Korea with the team of eye doctors, who were there on a charity mission to do (as I recall) cataract surgery, and restore some vision to a number of the locals.

One by one, after the surgeries, they all praised the portrait of Kim (don't recall which one). When one of them was asked in advance of the surgery what they most looked forward to, the translator responded that they looked forward to seeing (a portrait of) either the Great Leader or the Dear Leader.

It used to be on youtube. Maybe it still is.

One thing I wondered after watching that was how much of that was genuine and how much of it was, "well, the guy before me started crying and screaming, so if I don't want to look bad I better scream about how I'm going to kill Americans. That should keep me safe."

[Musicat]

Originally Posted by RandMcnally

One thing I wondered after watching that was how much of that was genuine and how much of it was, "well, the guy before me started crying and screaming, so if I don't want to look bad I better scream about how I'm going to kill Americans. That should keep me safe."

If enough of them do it, and there is no other reaction, doesn't that become reality?

[Pyper]

I am going to come down on the side of "most of them probably don't believe it but are just going along with it for safety/conformity reasons."

In the book, Red China Blues, Jan Wong describes her time as a young Chinese-Canadian Marxist studying abroad in 1970's China. She was shocked at the blind adherence of her fellow students and handlers to policies that to her seemed ridiculous. Whenever she tried to question anything, she was harshly told to conform or else.

Yet many years later after China had opened up more, she asked these people if they still felt the same about Maoist policies. To her great surprise, practically all of the supposed hard-line Maoists who had been in charge of her indoctrination admitted that they never believed any of it. It had all been just a big lie that everyone told to each other.

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by simple homer

I have been living and working in China for the past 4 years, and most Chinese people that I talk to tell me that Mao is their hero.
Mao supposedly is responsible for the death of 35 million Chinese, but that doesn't stop people from telling me what a great person he was.

By the way, I lived there two years and did not experience anything like this. Most folks I talked to said he was a great hero up until he went power crazy. Then, they seem to think he was a total disappointment.

[drewtwo99]

Of course he believes it, as do most of the North Korean people. This is all they are told to believe from the moment they are born. It is all they hear on the radio and television. It is their entire lives. They are the most indoctrinated or brainwashed people on the planet.

I mean, look at all the people who believe in Christianity... or any world-religion, who only receive a small amount of indoctrination in comparison.

They believe it, sure, and they also know the consequence of not stating those beliefs out loud for the entire world to hear at every chance they get.

[simple homer]

Originally Posted by Mahaloth

By the way, I lived there two years and did not experience anything like this. Most folks I talked to said he was a great hero up until he went power crazy. Then, they seem to think he was a total disappointment.

Did you spend most of your time in larger cities like Shanghai and Beijing ?

My experience is that the few hundred million that live along the east coast of China tend to be more educated and open minded than the billion or so that live in the mid and the west.

[Jormungandr]

One thing I remember hearing about the first family reunions for the divided families is how the North Koreans responded when asked how things were in their country. I wish I could find a reference, but supposedly the North Koreans would stand up straight and say how the "Great Leader" was providing for and taking care of them.

[Mahaloth]

Originally Posted by simple homer

Did you spend most of your time in larger cities like Shanghai and Beijing ?

My experience is that the few hundred million that live along the east coast of China tend to be more educated and open minded than the billion or so that live in the mid and the west.

Yes, I lived in the major cities, with more educated folks.