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#1
03-09-2011, 06:20 PM
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Maybe I am not so Agnostic after all?
Up until this post I have battled the good fight for us spiritual agnostics. Wow people would say, How can you be spiritual and agnostic? Well you can't is the answer I have come to.
There is no God, I have pretty much believed that but I have held onto an irrational belief that there must be something beyond us, well as far as I can tell there isn't, so therefore I am now an Atheist. There I said it. I have battled long and hard in "coming out" so to speak. Why? Well I was worried that I would somehow remove the awe and wonder that is this universe, but I heard a great comment the other day that stunned me into atheism. "We are the universe made self aware". I would also like to thank Cecil Adams, the Dopers, Point of Inquiry [great podcasts], The ABC Science Show, Skeptics etc etc. but the biggest contributor to my skeptical outlook are the fucking stupid creationists and people pushing bad science, it's not even science it's a bunch of people using crap to back up crap. So to all you literal bible bashers, thank you for opening my closet door. 
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#2
03-09-2011, 06:31 PM
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It's hard to let go of that last little bit of belief.
Welcome to the dark side! (We have pie!)
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#5
03-09-2011, 07:27 PM
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The Creation Museum has been advertising daily on TV. It's making my brain bleed.
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#6
03-09-2011, 08:05 PM
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There's nothing mutually exclusive about being agnostic and atheistic. It's possible to be both.
My thoughts on the matter.
__________________
"I know you won't believe me, but the highest form of Human Excellence is to question oneself and others." -Socrates
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#8
03-09-2011, 09:10 PM
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If there was hard evidence for a god then god stops being supernatural (magic) and becomes natural and therefore not a deity. Sorry that doesn't make sense just yet I am now just getting to terms with the philosophical side of my chosen path but rest assured I will use Straight Dope to test my theories. Last edited by sisu; 03-09-2011 at 09:11 PM.
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#9
03-09-2011, 09:44 PM
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Welcome sisu! Good to have you with us. I'm out of pie, but I'm making cookies as I type this. I hope you like chocolate chip.
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#11
03-09-2011, 09:48 PM
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I have been confronted with the same question - when someone asks: "how can you spiritual and agnostic ( or atheist)?" Answer: "Mu!" My interpretation of the Tao is probably mine alone, but I consider it the equivalent of Nature - a non-sentient force that binds us all together (or rather the holistic synthesis of all the forces we know - and a few we don't know.) To live a spiritual life is to live in harmony with Nature or the Tao. And while meditation is a great personal practice to harmonize oneself, physics and the other hard sciences are much more effective in determining what those forces that bind us all together actually are and how they work. So a tree is a great expression of the Tao. And so is a computer. Both are manifestations of the forces of Nature/Tao at work. And for myself, becoming atheist and accepting my personal mortality has only increased my sense of awe and wonder of the universe, and increased my respect for life and our self-awareness. It becomes something truly special and rare when one realizes that it was not created, but that we are accidents of the universe. Even if we discover that life and sentience are common throughout the universe, it does not diminish the special circumstances under which it can exist and that it should be cherished when it does occur. Hopefully the above does not count too much toward witnessing. I only want to show that spirituality and atheism are not mutually exclusive. And I am still uncertain on the status of lesser beings such as devas and demigods. I'm still an Agnostic Pagan. My Pascal's wager is burn a stick of incense to whomever may care and to ask that they don't screw with us too much. Peace!
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#12
03-09-2011, 10:05 PM
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#13
03-09-2011, 10:48 PM
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#14
03-09-2011, 10:48 PM
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#15
03-09-2011, 10:50 PM
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#16
03-09-2011, 11:05 PM
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#17
03-10-2011, 12:08 AM
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#18
03-10-2011, 12:26 AM
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Don't you mean that humans are a ridiculously teensy tiny infinitesimally small part of the universe that are self aware, and perhaps only just barely?
We can't see or touch most of what the universe even is. We don't even know what most of it is. How can we be the universe, made self aware?
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#19
03-10-2011, 12:38 AM
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For me, it's these lines: "The cosmos is also within us; we're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself."
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#20
03-10-2011, 12:54 AM
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#21
03-10-2011, 05:42 AM
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#23
03-10-2011, 03:57 PM
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Once we accept that we are made up of the same stuff as the universe we can no longer place ourselves above it as God's creation. We are just a bunch of elements etc that somehow can be self aware. Like I said once I accepted this and let go of the last elements of magic belief I was at that point ready to accept my non or atheism. I still think that life is wonderful and am still full of awe at what this universe is, I will still push the idea that religion is a metaphor for how to live. Not always correct but flawed just like human thinking is.
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#25
03-10-2011, 05:05 PM
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I consider myself an agnostic who, deep down, believes, but doesn't actually know, there is no god. So I believe in atheism, but I cannot actually know it is correct, so it is a matter of belief. Clear?
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#26
03-10-2011, 05:36 PM
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I came to atheism through a gradual realization that all the world's religions have fulfilled an anthropological need. A need for social and moral structure, to assuage the instinctive fear of dying, etc.
Once I realized that, it was easy to see that the world around us is defined by its physcical properties, and constrained by finite and immutable physical laws - we may not fully understand these laws yet, but there they are. If there is some greater consciousness out there (say some neural network of interstellar plasma and stardust) it's ruled by the same physical laws as I am, and thus, has no purview over me. ETA: Oh, and sisu - welcome to the club! We may be godless, but we know how to PAR-TAY! Last edited by Crown Prince of Irony; 03-10-2011 at 05:36 PM.
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#27
03-10-2011, 06:00 PM
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Last edited by Kozmik; 03-10-2011 at 06:02 PM.
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#28
03-10-2011, 06:30 PM
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I like to use the analogy that an iceberg is separate to the ocean even though it is part of the ocean. When the iceberg melts [dies] it becomes one with the ocean once again. We are icebergs floating around in an ocean called the universe. Pretty simple and maybe naive but works for me.
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#29
03-10-2011, 06:44 PM
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Because "we're the universe made aware" is a plenty nice sentence that I fully endorse. You're just lacking faith  Also, the universe works in mysterious (but self-aware) ways. 
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#30
03-10-2011, 08:15 PM
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#31
03-11-2011, 05:06 AM
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#32
03-11-2011, 06:29 AM
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One of us, one of us!
I remember when I realized that intellectual honesty required me to admit I was an atheist. I literally felt a sense of vertigo, as well as fear. But I got better! Now my favorite philosophical statement, which brings me a lot of comfort, is "Shit happens." I'm totally serious. It is such a relief to give up the idea that there's something out there deciding everything should happen. Sometimes random crap happens and it can suck, but at least no one's out to get you! For those interested in the interconnectedness of everything in the universe and such ideas, check out http://www.thesecularbuddhist.com/
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#33
03-20-2011, 06:16 PM
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So as an Atheist how do you deal with wonder and awe? Can it be called a spiritual experience?
I understand the mechanics of hormones and chemicals etc, but why does staring at a hubble photo or watching a perfect sunset evoke a sense of wonder and awe?
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#34
03-20-2011, 06:45 PM
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I am a true agnostic and not an atheist. I am a huge fan of science and oddly that is what has cemented my belief in staying agnostic and not having much respect for atheists. It comes from the limitations of science and oddities an awe of theoretical physics. Even most knowledgeable people gloss over or ignore the fact that the is one honest to God miracle we have proof of. It is the miracle of creation of the universe itself. There is no known scientific explanation for it and many physicists say that we won't ever have one because we are restricted to our own space-time and can't ever see beyond that. That is pretty weird and matches oddly well with the earliest parts of the story of Genesis although that may just a coincidence.
I have come to accept that not only that humans don't understand everything behind the universe or multi-universes, we may not be capable of it. That doesn't mean the explanation lies in any current religion but the implications of that leave plenty of room for spirituality and forces greater than ourselves.
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#35
03-20-2011, 06:46 PM
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#36
03-20-2011, 07:09 PM
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I've never understood the need to label one's beliefs. You think what you think; make up your own name for it if it doesn't fit into a previously developed concept. I mean, it's nice to think one isn't the ONLY one who believes in the spaghetti monster, but really, it's not like opening the box will change what's inside. Rather, if it DOES change what's inside, then it's all pretty suspect anyway.
Great. Now I have to come up with a name for my beliefs, which range somewhere between "If there are gods, they're assholes and we need to have a word" to "I don't care if every god ever thought about really exists, same for if no gods exist; aint' changin' my ways". Oh right...Apatheist, I think someone came up with in another thread. :P I'm far more interested in the need people in general, over time, have had for the need to label such things. It isn't as if it's lead to any better understanding or anything.
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#37
03-20-2011, 07:26 PM
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Secondly, you would have to explain what is "miraculous" about the origin of the universe. You are incorrect that we have no scientific explanation for it. We do. it's called the Big Bang. In more general terms you might say that we don't know and (maybe will never know) exactly what (for lack of a better word) "caused" the Big Bang, but that doesn't mean it was magic. That's just God of the gaps. Furthermore, we do have hypotheses which do not require gods. You also say that we don't know "what lies behind the universe or multiverses," but that carries a presumption that there necessarily has to be anything "behind" the universe (whatever that means) other than (perhaps) the random tantrums of the quantum field. Finally, the Big Bang does not, in any way, jibe with either of the creation stories in Genesis. Do you think the earth was formed before the sun? Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-20-2011 at 07:29 PM.
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#38
03-20-2011, 07:30 PM
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You don't think 'hormones and chemicals etc' are the cause of wonder and awe, rather than the mechanism, do you?
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#39
03-20-2011, 07:50 PM
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I was talking about the before the Big Bang (I know what people will say. "Ah, but there is no before the Big Bang". We still aren't getting anywhere) which is what many people would love to know but it is supposed to be impossible. My point is summed up in this Farside cartoon. I stand by position that the creation of the universe is a miracle by any definition at this point to the best of our understanding. That in and of itself still leaves much broader questions open. Last edited by Shagnasty; 03-20-2011 at 07:52 PM.
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#40
03-20-2011, 08:03 PM
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That's not a Farside, it's Sidney Harris, and it doesn't relate to the Big Bang.
A "miracle," by definition is a suspension of or intervention in the physical laws of the universe by some supernatural agent. What physical laws do you think were violated by the Big Bang, and why do you think a supernatural agent was involved? If you're using the word "miracle" in a more figurative sense, like "the miracle of childbirth," then I wont contest the point, but it really has nothing to do with the theistic questions unless you think it literally needs a supernatural explanation.
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#41
03-20-2011, 08:27 PM
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Last edited by Shagnasty; 03-20-2011 at 08:28 PM.
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#42
03-20-2011, 08:41 PM
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#43
03-20-2011, 08:46 PM
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Explain the origin of the universe according to the Big Bang model but be sure to emphasize how the Big Bang itself originated. If our common definitions of space and time don't work at some point in you discussion, use others. Show your work.
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#44
03-20-2011, 09:47 PM
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Having said that, we don't need to look to the supernatural to explain the Big Bang. All we have are hypotheses at this point, but hypotheses are all we need to exclude the supernatural. Last edited by Diogenes the Cynic; 03-20-2011 at 09:47 PM.
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#45
08-02-2012, 12:02 AM
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Well it has been well over a year now since coming clean on my Atheism and to be honest my world has not changed that much. One thing that has really struck me is that when i attend church on a Sunday morning I get a lot more from it. WTF? some are asking. Simple before I was tied up in knots trying to believe, now I hear the message and learn from the stories. Being an atheist makes me a better christian!
My sense of wonder is even more pronounced, I am happy to say "Don't know" to why things are as they are. It has made me more curious and open to understanding. Atheism is a sane world view.
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#46
08-02-2012, 12:18 AM
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Congrats! I kept going to church for a while after I became an atheist because I liked the songs and stories, but I found it less and less meaningful. I have been leading a Bible study for an atheist group recently, though, and I find I like the Bible more now than when I was Christian, for similar reasons to what you said. I was a very liberal Christian, so I never worried too much about "believing" anything, but I struggled with how on earth some passages in the Bible were supposed to be meaningful or inspiring!
ETA: I just started listening to "Point of Inquiry" recently. It is a great podcast! CFI has a new one all about the Bible hosted by Robert M. Price, and it's pretty awesome, too. It's called The Human Bible. I was never crazy about Price on PoI, but he's really in his element here. Last edited by Alan Smithee; 08-02-2012 at 12:21 AM.
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#47
08-02-2012, 09:01 PM
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#49
08-02-2012, 09:59 PM
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Here's the thing: You believe what you believe. The label doesn't matter, and nobody needs one. It's the labels pigeonholing your beliefs; don't worry, and be happy.
 Besides, it doesn't matter WHAT we believe. What is, is, whether we believe it or not. /wonders if I could meta things a couple more levels. Last edited by Taomist; 08-02-2012 at 10:00 PM.
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