I Really Used to Like ATMB

[Siam Sam]

I really used to like About This Message Board, back when it was mainly about interesting technical issues. But nowadays -- or is it just me? -- it's nothing but a bunch of whining. Now here *I* am whining! Ye gods!

I know some people think we're a little forum heavy already, but maybe we should have a separate one just for bitching about moderators and return ATMB to technical issues.

[Rhythmdvl]

I've wanted it split in three:
Test posts (easiest to moderate, blanket rule that any thread can be locked)
Technical questions (again easy to mod; very limited and dry subject area)
Mod questions (modded just like ATMB is now, but free of above clutter)

I like the no flaming in ATMB rule, but it seems that some people never got over the move out of the Pit and feel like posting in ATMB means you're supposed to be as whiney as possible.

[Covered_In_Bees!]

Well maybe if people would read the fucking stickies, issues with administration should already be relegated to private messages or e-mails. If this were enforced more strongly, ATMB could go back to being a far more helpful and constructive forum.

[Lamar Mundane]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

I really used to like About This Message Board, back when it was mainly about interesting technical issues. But nowadays -- or is it just me? -- it's nothing but a bunch of whining. Now here *I* am whining! Ye gods!

I know some people think we're a little forum heavy already, but maybe we should have a separate one just for bitching about moderators and return ATMB to technical issues.

There are separate places that these whiny posts originate, but they go by different names and have different urls. The problem is that they are small and have been populated by the same couple of dozen posters for years, who have nothing new to say.

So they come over here to get more responses and higher quality attention. That is why whenever you see an OP about doard or moderator issues, it will be populated by posters who rarely post in regular threads anymore, but in the contentious threads about board issues they will jump in with both feet and a couple dozen whiny posts.

[Electric Warrior]

Yes. It's because you can't Pit mods about modding decisions anymore.

Covered_In_Bees, people make ATMB threads because they want to make issues public, not because they don't know what the recommended action is.

[splatterpunk]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

I really used to like About This Message Board, back when it was mainly about interesting technical issues. But nowadays -- or is it just me? -- it's nothing but a bunch of whining. Now here *I* am whining! Ye gods!

I know some people think we're a little forum heavy already, but maybe we should have a separate one just for bitching about moderators and return ATMB to technical issues.

Seriously? "Interesting technical issues?" Like "how do I post a poll?" That kind of stuff?

Yeah, real interesting.

Perhaps you should stick to polluting MPSIMS with your exciting pigeon updates.

[TubaDiva]

Let's not make this another bickering thread, okay?

[Covered_In_Bees!]

Originally Posted by Electric Warrior

Covered_In_Bees, people make ATMB threads because they want to make issues public, not because they don't know what the recommended action is.

Yes, "issues" that never lead anywhere and if the attention does lead somewhere, I'm not convinced a private, more civil exchange wouldn't accomplish the same thing and probably faster.

[PlainJain]

Originally Posted by Covered_In_Bees!

Well maybe if people would read the fucking stickies, issues with administration should already be relegated to private messages or e-mails. If this were enforced more strongly, ATMB could go back to being a far more helpful and constructive forum.

Yes that's what we need - less transparency.

[Rhythmdvl]

Originally Posted by Electric Warrior

Yes. It's because you can't Pit mods about modding decisions anymore.

I think moving mod discussion TO the pit was one of the biggest mistakes of the board. Now, even though it's been years since mod discussions were moved out, people can't shake the feeling that they must snark. No, not everyone, and no, not every snark is related. But kind of like in the pit, where if you are disagreed with it's almost culturally expected that the retort will be insulting or vitriolic. Here, so much venom is inserted into modding threads that half of the posts are way over the top. It's sad, really.

[Guinastasia]

Maybe if you could use BOTH -- pit mods for stuff that you're really pissed over, but still voice mild complaints in ATMB? But that would make too much sense.

[Measure for Measure]

Originally Posted by PlainJain

Yes that's what we need - less transparency.

With respect, discussion of moderator decisions earns an instaban on most boards. If this board was any more transparent, it would be invisible.

[Vinyl Turnip]

Originally Posted by TubaDiva

Let's not make this another bickering thread, okay?

Four! Split into four...

[Loach]

Originally Posted by Measure for Measure

With respect, discussion of moderator decisions earns an instaban on most boards. If this board was any more transparent, it would be invisible.

Most boards aren't worth glancing at.

[Cicero]

Originally Posted by Covered_In_Bees!

Well maybe if people would read the fucking stickies, .

Where can I get a fucking sticky? This sounds fun!

[Jack Batty]

Originally Posted by Cicero

Where can I get a fucking sticky?

If you're doing it right, just about anywhere.

[Cicero]

Even if you are doing it wrong I think you are right.

[Rhythmdvl]

All the whining is going way over the top. Any day now Ed is going to realize that though he used to love ATMB, he's going to have to kill it. Once locked, he'll keep it around for archive purposes, buried in the back of the forums--and even then it'll probably haunt him and he'll still end up reading the complaints.

[/Guns n' Roses]

[Covered_In_Bees!]

Originally Posted by Measure for Measure

With respect, discussion of moderator decisions earns an instaban on most boards. If this board was any more transparent, it would be invisible.

Quoted for truth and agreement.

Originally Posted by Loach

Most boards aren't worth glancing at.

Also agreed. Our moderators do a fantastic job making this place worth looking at and any additional "transparency" that's required is just a bunch of hot air from people who've always got something up their ass and probably would have been banned from any other message board.

Originally Posted by Cicero

Where can I get a fucking sticky? This sounds fun!

I hear that theaters and men's restrooms are good places to start.

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Covered_In_Bees!

Our moderators do a fantastic job making this place worth looking at and any additional "transparency" that's required is just a bunch of hot air from people who've always got something up their ass and probably would have been banned from any other message board.

That's very true. In fact, while mods are constantly accused of acting like jackbooted thugs, if anything they usually err on the side of caution.

Originally Posted by Covered_In_Bees!

I hear that theaters and men's restrooms are good places to start.

I can recommend a couple of bars too.

[Marley23]

Separating ATMB into a forum for bitching and a forum for test threads wouldn't reduce complaining, although obviously it would make those threads easier to ignore for those of you who don't have to read the stuff. I don't see the point. And yes, there are some people who complain for fun, but it's good to have a forum for reasonable questions and complaints and having it in ATMB instead of the Pit at least gives us a chance at dealing with the latter category of complaints in a sensible way.

[Darth Nader]

ATMB: About this message board.
Sub boards:
ATMBBitching: Respectful complaints about this message board.
ATestingTMB: Testes, testes, one, two..

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Covered_In_Bees!

Yes, "issues" that never lead anywhere and if the attention does lead somewhere, I'm not convinced a private, more civil exchange wouldn't accomplish the same thing and probably faster.

This is true. If you actually want an issue resolved, the best way is to first contact the moderator concerned privately. If that doesn't resolve the issue, you could then contact another moderator. A public complaint should be the last resort, unless your main objective is to get sympathy from other posters rather than have the decision reversed.

We do make every effort to treat posters fairly, even if we've had problems with them before. And in such cases, moderators will often run complaints through the mod loop to see if others who are not involved directly in the situation read it differently. Most of us have reversed decisions based on input from the poster concerned or from other mods.

[Rhythmdvl]

Originally Posted by Rhythmdvl

Test posts (easiest to moderate, blanket rule that any thread can be locked)
Technical questions (again easy to mod; very limited and dry subject area)

Originally Posted by Darth Nader

ATMB: About this message board.
Sub boards:
ATestingTMB: Testes, testes, one, two..

I'd even volunteer to mini-mod it. No 'real' powers except to ban/block outright spam, lock threads that need a-locking, and move threads that need amoving. No warning, note, or other powers, no jackboots, not even a coffee mug. Just minor janitorial abilities to keep things tidy. Heck, I woudln't even have the ability to insta-ban the entire board. Don't even need access tot he super-secret mod board. If a dispute arises, a real mod can get involved then (but really, how many test or how-to threads have required actual mod intervention?).

Basically, it'd be the equivalent of Aquamod.

[Duckster]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

I know some people think we're a little forum heavy already, but maybe we should have a separate one just for bitching about moderators and return ATMB to technical issues.

Adding another forum might just add to the forum glut I think we already have. However, this view does have some merit. I offer the following suggestion:

• ATMB - Remains as the standard forum to ask questions about the technical operations of the SDMB. Yes, the test posts home would remain here. IMHO, test posts don't qualify for their own forum. Their current forum impact is minimal anyway.
• ATIM - All Things In Moderation - A new forum strictly for mod/moderation issues. Here is where the mods post suspension and ban notices of current members and goodbye members, respectively. The forum would also be the place where the membership may question the mods' actions of the SDMB, including whinings, moanings, pleadings, beatings, whippings, keelhaulings, etc.

If not worthy of serious consideration, I can live with it, too.

[Darth Nader]

Originally Posted by Rhythmdvl

I'd even volunteer to mini-mod it. No 'real' powers

Aww, crap.

It's not you, specifically, just the whole "Everyone ever who wanted some control was a bad guy thing..."

No new mods. We just need to help them fly free. Not like Mork and his eggs, either. Well, maybe.

[Irishman]

Originally Posted by Marley23

And yes, there are some people who complain for fun, but it's good to have a forum for reasonable questions and complaints and having it in ATMB instead of the Pit at least gives us a chance at dealing with the latter category of complaints in a sensible way.

I don't think the suggestion is to move all board moderation issues to the Pit. Rather, keep questions and complaints that you would like an answer in ATMB and move bitching and whining about moderation to the Pit, where it can be ignored or wallowed in at the user's discretion.

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Duckster

The forum would also be the place where the membership may question the mods' actions of the SDMB, including whinings, moanings, pleadings, beatings, whippings, keelhaulings, etc.

I would make that "May respectfully question the mod's actions...". The mods and admins are volunteers, and most boards I've visited would never allow their volunteer staff to be treated like shit. You know-"Disagree without being disagreeable".

[Electric Warrior]

Originally Posted by Rhythmdvl

I think moving mod discussion TO the pit was one of the biggest mistakes of the board. Now, even though it's been years since mod discussions were moved out, people can't shake the feeling that they must snark. No, not everyone, and no, not every snark is related. But kind of like in the pit, where if you are disagreed with it's almost culturally expected that the retort will be insulting or vitriolic. Here, so much venom is inserted into modding threads that half of the posts are way over the top. It's sad, really.

That's a good point. It might be good to develop a culture of polite and businesslike discussion of board policy and mod actions.

[Duckster]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

I would make that "May respectfully question the mod's actions...".

Works for me.

[Darth Nader]

Originally Posted by Irishman

move bitching and whining about moderation to the Pit, where it can be ignored or wallowed in at the user's discretion.

Yeah. That's the thing. So don't READ THIS

SPOILER:

as some fucking cunt might get butthurt,

and, well, resubscribe my son's LEGO magazine for free as a gift.

Yeah. Now it makes sense.

[Darth Nader]

Originally Posted by Darth Nader

ATMB: About this message board.
Sub boards:
ATMBBitching: Respectful complaints about this message board.
ATestingTMB: Testes, testes, one, two..

cough

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Irishman

Rather, keep questions and complaints that you would like an answer in ATMB and move bitching and whining about moderation to the Pit, where it can be ignored or wallowed in at the user's discretion.

I doubt it would help. Many threads contain a mixture of both. What starts out as a simple question not infrequently spirals into a bitchfest.

[Irishman]

Better grounds for stronger moderation. "There's a forum for that, take it there." vs "You can't vent at all."

Right now, there's a forum that's supposed to be for respectfully discussing and addressing questions and issues, but no place to vent. Thus venting gets lumped in with the discussing.

[ftg]

What I don't get is the page after page pointless stuff in this forum. Take the current avatar offence thread. 7 pages now.

Look folks, if there is any chance whatsoever that there might be some avatar that you could possibly be displeased with for any reason at all don't do the avatar script.

Really, really, simple. Once that's been said, why is the thread allowed to continue? It's just RO and such at this point.

The mods seem to clamp down hard on some threads in ATMB, and others are allowed to drag on for no good reason.

Once the official opinion is stated or it's clear it's going nowhere, just lock the thing.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by ftg

What I don't get is the page after page pointless stuff in this forum. Take the current avatar offence thread. 7 pages now.

Look folks, if there is any chance whatsoever that there might be some avatar that you could possibly be displeased with for any reason at all don't do the avatar script.

Really, really, simple. Once that's been said, why is the thread allowed to continue? It's just RO and such at this point.

Let's not open the door for that debate here, or this thread will go seven pages too.

The mods seem to clamp down hard on some threads in ATMB, and others are allowed to drag on for no good reason.

Once the official opinion is stated or it's clear it's going nowhere, just lock the thing.

That generally just leads to another thread being opened. So we don't do it very often. We do, however, lock threads if they devolve into personal bickering between posters.

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by Duckster

Adding another forum might just add to the forum glut I think we already have. However, this view does have some merit. I offer the following suggestion:

• ATMB - Remains as the standard forum to ask questions about the technical operations of the SDMB. Yes, the test posts home would remain here. IMHO, test posts don't qualify for their own forum. Their current forum impact is minimal anyway.
• ATIM - All Things In Moderation - A new forum strictly for mod/moderation issues. Here is where the mods post suspension and ban notices of current members and goodbye members, respectively. The forum would also be the place where the membership may question the mods' actions of the SDMB, including whinings, moanings, pleadings, beatings, whippings, keelhaulings, etc.

If not worthy of serious consideration, I can live with it, too.

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

I would make that "May respectfully question the mod's actions...". The mods and admins are volunteers, and most boards I've visited would never allow their volunteer staff to be treated like shit. You know-"Disagree without being disagreeable".

I like it myself.

[Simple Linctus]

Originally Posted by Colibri

This is true. If you actually want an issue resolved, the best way is to first contact the moderator concerned privately. If that doesn't resolve the issue, you could then contact another moderator. A public complaint should be the last resort, unless your main objective is to get sympathy from other posters rather than have the decision reversed.

We do make every effort to treat posters fairly, even if we've had problems with them before. And in such cases, moderators will often run complaints through the mod loop to see if others who are not involved directly in the situation read it differently. Most of us have reversed decisions based on input from the poster concerned or from other mods.

I agree with you that a poster should contact the original moderator first.

But there's no way that I would contact another moderator if the first moderator's decision was unacceptable to me unless the initial moderator had explicitly said I was free to do so. It would feel sneaky. Hell, it is sneaky. Taking it to the board would be the only option.

Not that I have any complaints, just saying.

[Measure for Measure]

Um. Please, no.

Back in the day, moderation was gruff, but the whiners would almost invariably receive the pile-on. manhattan and DavidB would jokingly compete for the most pit threads dedicated to them. During one of my many absences, the pit evolved in an unfortunate direction and most of the enmity began to be directed against management. I see that as a natural development, albeit one which was postponed for many years. So public mod discussions were moved here.

Having a few innocent bystanders wander in and occasionally tell the modest number of active whiners that they are full of shit is a good thing. So methinks segregating ATIM would be a bad idea.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Measure for Measure

With respect, discussion of moderator decisions earns an instaban on most boards. If this board was any more transparent, it would be invisible.

Not any of the boards I've ever visited. Most of them have an "About this Board" section just like we do, and there are complaints all the time.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Confused dart cum

But there's no way that I would contact another moderator if the first moderator's decision was unacceptable to me unless the initial moderator had explicitly said I was free to do so. It would feel sneaky. Hell, it is sneaky. Taking it to the board would be the only option.

I don't think most of us would view it that way. Like I said, we regularly run any of our decisions we feel may be questionable by the rest of the moderators to get feedback. (However, I'll say that I don't recall ever having been contacted by a poster regarding another moderator's decision).

[Simple Linctus]

I will accept that you wouldn't find it sneaky if you say so; however I do think that you (whether it's you individually or if you are speaking for all moderators) are slightly pecuilar in having that viewpoint - I think my way of thinking is closer to the "norm".

Perhaps it is something that could be added to a "complaints procedure" thread.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Confused dart cum

I will accept that you wouldn't find it sneaky if you say so; however I do think that you (whether it's you individually or if you are speaking for all moderators) are slightly pecuilar in having that viewpoint - I think my way of thinking is closer to the "norm".

I can't imagine a whole lot of people who are in any sort of position of authority (even one as minor as "Volunteer Message Board Moderator") who would prefer a public airing of someone's grievance with them, over an attempt to work it out in private with another person in authority.

If I were an office manager, and one of the people I managed was upset about one of my decisions, I'd much rather he talked to another manager, then complain about it all over the office. I mean, if I were a cop, and I gave a ticket to a guy who thought he didn't deserve it, I'd much rather he talked to my supervisor, instead of trying top organize a protest rally. If I were a politician, and one of my constituents were angry at me, absolutely the last thing I'd want him to do about it is make it a public issue.

I don't think your way of thinking is anything close to the norm on this one.

[Colibri]

Originally Posted by Confused dart cum

I will accept that you wouldn't find it sneaky if you say so; however I do think that you (whether it's you individually or if you are speaking for all moderators) are slightly pecuilar in having that viewpoint - I think my way of thinking is closer to the "norm".

I'm speaking both for myself, and from what I know of the other moderators (most of whom I've worked with for five years). Moderators are chosen in part for having fairly thick skins. We're generally pretty receptive to the viewpoints of other moderators.

As Miller says, in the real world almost anyone would prefer to deal with a dispute in private rather than in public. Most public complaints in ATMB seem to be more for the purpose of garnering sympathy from other posters, rather than for actually getting a decision reversed.

[srzss05]

Originally Posted by ftg

What I don't get is the page after page pointless stuff in this forum. Take the current avatar offence thread. 7 pages now.

Because people like to bitch, even if the original participants have gotten their answer and have moved on. People come late to the party and want to have their say as well, even if all they have to say is the same things that were said earlier.

[Simple Linctus]

Originally Posted by Miller

I can't imagine a whole lot of people who are in any sort of position of authority (even one as minor as "Volunteer Message Board Moderator") who would prefer a public airing of someone's grievance with them, over an attempt to work it out in private with another person in authority.

If I were an office manager, and one of the people I managed was upset about one of my decisions, I'd much rather he talked to another manager, then complain about it all over the office. I mean, if I were a cop, and I gave a ticket to a guy who thought he didn't deserve it, I'd much rather he talked to my supervisor, instead of trying top organize a protest rally. If I were a politician, and one of my constituents were angry at me, absolutely the last thing I'd want him to do about it is make it a public issue.

I don't think your way of thinking is anything close to the norm on this one.

I think you are right with respect to something like an office manager. However, I don't consider message board moderator to be a position of authority and even if it is, the main "job" of a moderator, here anyway, is to be a poster. This is a social space after all.

If moderators here did nothing but moderate and were paid members of staff I would agree with you.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

I really used to like About This Message Board, back when it was mainly about interesting technical issues. But nowadays -- or is it just me? -- it's nothing but a bunch of whining. Now here *I* am whining! Ye gods!

I know some people think we're a little forum heavy already, but maybe we should have a separate one just for bitching about moderators and return ATMB to technical issues.

Gosh, you're right. O how I long for those glorious olden days of ATMB* where we'd have indepth discussions of technical issues of the most super-interesting variety. Let's return to those happy golden days of yore.

Poster 1: Im new here does html work? <b>bold</b> <blink>blink</blink> <u>underline</u>

Poster 2: We use VB code here. So it's [ b ]for bold [ /b ] and [ i ] for italics [ /i ] but without the spaces.

Poster 1: LOL so html is off lame!!!!! But I get it. how do u do underline i dont use itacs. How do u do blink????

Poster 3: Spelling and punctuation is an important part of our culture here too. Maybe you should lurk a bit.

Poster 1: u r so stupid--im txting this on my phone lol!

poster 2: Underline is [ u ]like this [ /u ] without the spaces. Blink sucks and everyone hates it.

Mod 1: Poster 1, this is ATMB and we don't permit flaming here. Please don't call people stupid or other names outside of our Pit forum.

Poster 1: This is STUPID. [u]i was attked first by poster 3 who said i cant spell or punctutate. why cant i figth back?? Also every cool mssgbrd uses blink.

Mod 2: Perhaps you would be so kind to list every one of these "cool" messageboards that allows the blink tag?

Poster 1: Y? If i do, youll just ruin it too cuz your stupoid. LOLOL

Mod 2: So you're saying that anyone who doesn't spell or write like you is stupid? Could you validate this theory by showing us your degrees in English?

and so on.

I heartily invite you to print out the above exchange, post it to your monitor and read it whenever you long for those pristine days when ATMB was all about pure intellectual pursuit.







*Keeping in mind that I think the new "Discussion of mod action is ATMB fodder" rule is terrible for the board.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

most boards I've visited would never allow their volunteer staff to be treated like shit.

Those would be all those messageboards that you visit that don't allow avatars, right?

[Czarcasm]

Originally Posted by Fenris

Those would be all those messageboards that you visit that don't allow avatars, right?

It's off topic for this thread, but why are you rolling your baby blues at me when I all I did was ask a question that nobody would answer?

edited to add: On second thought, I don't care about your off-topic attack-this thread isn't about me.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Czarcasm

It's off topic for this thread, but why are you rolling your baby blues at me when I all I did was ask a question that nobody would answer?

edited to add: On second thought, I don't care about your off-topic attack-this thread isn't about me.

If it's off topic, why aren't you reporting me instead of apparently playing junior moderator? You were a mod (albeit the worst mod I've ever seen), you should know that the "correct" SDMB response to off-topic posts is to report them.


ETA: On second thought--I don't care about your mean ol' post either. I'll just leave my reply up though, so I can do a douchy passive-aggressive rebuttal like you.