Pussy Riot will topple Putin; mark my words!

[An Arky]

Originally Posted by Bricker

In Virginia, trespass is a class one misdemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and a fine of $2,500. Conspiring with others to trespass is a Class 3 misdemeanor.

In Virginia, inmates in jail typically work: trash pickup, etc.

I agree the Russian sentence might end up being harsher (have they actually been sentenced?) but I'm not so sure about the 5 bajillion fucktons.

See, my issue is that even here, in the land of the free, you don't get to use someone else's pulpit -- in this case, literally a pulpit -- to exercise your right to free speech. If their impromptu performance had been on the street outside the church as parishoners left, my discomfort with the authorities would be complete.

But my admiration of the girls' willingness to protest is tempered by the understanding that they infringed on someone else's rights to do so. And the knowledge that the same act in this country could result in a year or so of jail time.

Yeah; I was just engaging in a bit of hyperbole, and I realistically expect a trespassing bust like this to end up with a fine/community service, barring prior convictions. I don't know whether Russian courts generally sentence at the harsher end or not; it does look as if the sentence could realistically be twice as harsh. Yeah, they went overboard, but I guess when you have a tradition of getting gigged for even the mildest protest, the matter of degree might not be the point for them.

[An Arky]

ETA: I also have no idea whether the group could have been bailed out and that the jail thing is an extension of their protest. I know that they are doing a lot of mugging for cameras and Nadezhda seems to have access to makeup/hair styling/clothes so it doesn't appear they're exactly breaking rocks in the hot sun.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

Not sure about that. The whole performance lasted 40 seconds. That's pretty immediate.

Did you see the video?

They clearly dodge and resist the attempt to remove them. There's no question in my mind, watching the video, that they were aware they were not supposed to be there.

[clairobscur]

Originally Posted by Bricker

So, a hypothetical Russian and I have a conversation:

[......]

HR: So what is problem?

The problems are for instance :

-That when the power isn't legitimate, using unlawful venues to protest against it becomes legitimate. Especially when this venue is well known for supporting said illegitimate power.

-That "disrupting a service" doesn't carry a sentence of three years in a labour camp in democratic countries I'm familiar with.

-That from many reports made, the trial is conducted in ways that aren't conductive to a proper defense.


I see your point but frankly you could make exactly the same point, using the same words, about a trial taking place in North Korea. Which means IMHO that this point demonstrates nothing.

[clairobscur]

Originally Posted by Bricker

Correction noted. NOT during a service.

And please don't take my comments here as a general defense of the Russian joke that pretends to be a fair trial. But by their own admission, the girls did something that, if committed here, would be a crime.

The difference being that "here* is a true democracy.

They can complain about harsh sentences, I suppose, if they get a harsh sentence. But unless I'm missing something -- and Lord knows I may be -- the underlying act was civil disobedience. A sine qua non of civil disobedience is the willingness to accept punishment for your willful disregard of the law you believe is wrong, is it not?

I never bought into this civil disobedience/willingness to accept punishment theory. You don't have to be fair with the unfair. There's zero evidence that they buy into it, either. They probably believe, like me, that their action was legitimate and that if they could get away with it, it would be for the better.

It might be that in some circumstances, going through the trial and sentence could be more efficient (by raising public awareness), but if it isn't, or if it is but you don't have the balls for that, staying free to give it a go the next day is perfectly fine. And being willing to "accept the punishment" is never needed IMO. It just happens that the punishment is an unfortunate side-effect of raising awareness.

To reuse an argument from Der Trihs : would you deliver Anne Frank to the Gestapo? If you wouldn't, you agree with the general principle and we're just arguing about the details. Maybe Putin's regime isn't bad enough for you to apply it in this case, but it's definitely bad enough for me.

[clairobscur]

Originally Posted by black rabbit

Yeah, Putin's regime was behind a colossal fuckup of a hostage raid that killed 170 civilians, .

He also restarted a war for no sensible reason, which resulted in way, way more than 170 civilian deaths.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Ravenman

I wouldn't characterize it that way. There's some big burly security dude who tried to grab them and take them away right at the beginning of the video clip. They managed to elude the world's worst bouncer (guess that's why he's working in a church and not a bar) and continue the performance.

Still, I think Bricker's framing of this issue as generally a matter of trespass and criminal law doesn't present a complete picture. This is clearly a crime of civil disobedience. It isn't like our country's own history with the civil rights movement and other political protests were always carried out with the support of the government and never infringing on anyone else's property or sense of propriety. This isn't the shot that was heard around the world, but these girls deserve a lot more slack than the serious charges they are faced with.

Originally Posted by Bricker

Did you see the video?

They clearly dodge and resist the attempt to remove them. There's no question in my mind, watching the video, that they were aware they were not supposed to be there.

I didn't see the video. Fair enough.

[Simple Linctus]

They deserve to be jailed for that song, even if they had performed it in a studio. I don`t see how it can be classified as music.

[thelurkinghorror]

Originally Posted by Confused dart cum

They deserve to be jailed for that song, even if they had performed it in a studio. I don`t see how it can be classified as music.

So would it be better or worse if they played it on your lawn? Would the sound give you the diabeetus?

[Snowboarder Bo]

Judge Marina Syrova said in her verdict that the band members "committed hooliganism driven by religious hatred." She rejected the women's arguments that they were protesting the Orthodox Church's support for Putin and didn't intend to offend religious believers.

There were protests outside the courtroom, of course, and police used the opportunity to round up a few opposition leaders.

"Putin has doomed himself to another year and a half of international shame and humiliation," said Boris Akunin, one of Russia's most popular authors, who was among the Pussy Riot supporters outside the courthouse. "The whole thing is bad because it's yet another step toward the escalation of tensions within society. And the government is absolutely to blame."

Defense lawyers said they would appeal the verdict, although they had little hope that it would be overturned. "Under no circumstances will the girls ask for a pardon (from Putin)," said Mark Feygin. "They will not beg and humiliate themselves before such a bastard."

Outside the court, police rounded up a few dozen protesters, including former world chess champion Garry Kasparov, who is a leading opposition activist, and leftist opposition group leader Sergei Udaltsov.

I think it's great that people are out in public protesting this travesty, and look forward to seeing changes in Russian society and government in the near future.

[Bricker]

Originally Posted by clairobscur

The problems are for instance :

-That when the power isn't legitimate, using unlawful venues to protest against it becomes legitimate. Especially when this venue is well known for supporting said illegitimate power.

Who made that rule?

-That "disrupting a service" doesn't carry a sentence of three years in a labour camp in democratic countries I'm familiar with.

They got two years. In Virginia, criminal trespass carries a maximum sentence of one year. That doesn't strike me as so dramatically different as to invalidate the sentence.

-That from many reports made, the trial is conducted in ways that aren't conductive to a proper defense.

Yes, except for the fact that the purpose of a trial is to determine the factual guilt of the parties. If your complaint was that they didn't do it, you'd be on to something.

[XT]

I don't know that much about the current Russian prison system. If they were sentenced to 2 years, does that actually mean that they will serve the full 2 years, or is there a possibility of early parole? And is there an appeals process?

[JoseB]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

I think it's great that people are out in public protesting this travesty, and look forward to seeing changes in Russian society and government in the near future.

Don't hold your breath. Time will pass and these girls will be completely forgotten (and Russian media will do their best not to mention them). The majority of the Russian people will go on as they do: Follow their day-to-day lives, try to make a living, and kinda-sorta generally feeling that Putin has put Russia again in the map as a big power.

My ex-wife is Russian, I've been there quite often, and I don't see any meaningful changes happening in the near future. Or even the far future, to be honest.

Putin is tremendously canny and shrewd, and you can be assured that he will find ways to keep in power and manipulate things to perpetuate himself and his regime.

Of course, many Russians will tell you (in confidence) jokes about Putin and the government(*), but that goes with the time-honoured tradition of "fig v karmanye" -- Flip those "up above" the bird under cover of your pocket. Under-the-table defiance that just helps you cope with your life but won't have any meaningful effect in the long term.

(*) One of them is a delightful variant on a "Spitting Image" classic: Putin and Medvedev are in a restaurant. The waiter comes, and asks Putin: "Sir, what will you have?" "I will have a steak", answers Putin. "Very well", says the waiter. "As for (the) vegetable?" "The vegetable will also have a steak", replies Putin.

[Omar Little]

Mleh, the sentence in my opinion is unjust...but it's Russia, not Rhode Island.

I'm sure there will be an upswell of support for these ladies by the rest of the music industry and probably even fans (well at least until people listen to their music, and then most will forget about them.)

[Timchik]

Originally Posted by Omar Little

Mleh, the sentence in my opinion is unjust...but it's Russia, not Rhode Island.

I'm sure there will be an upswell of support for these ladies by the rest of the music industry and probably even fans (well at least until people listen to their music, and then most will forget about them.)

The sentence is actually in line with what they were charged with... It's just that it's a bullshit charge to begin with.
I would have had no real problem if they were charged with "Melkoe khuliganstvo (minor hooliganism aka Disorderly conduct)" which is an administrative offense punishable by a fine or up to 15 days in jail. It's pretty clear that whatever the political implications of their actions, they could reasonably be found guilty under this article.

But then they would be released with time served. Instead, they were charged under Article 213 of the Criminal Code (translation), which is "Hooliganism... motivated by religious hatred... towards a social group". Anyone who's followed this trial at all knows there's no way in hell that hatred of Orthodox believers was the motivating force behind the "punk prayer". Basically, it's equivalent to what KKK members attacking a synagogue would be charged with. Farcical.

Gotta wonder which of Putin's lackeys had the bright idea to make a federal case out of this; it's a PR disaster outside of Russia, and domestically it just serves to further polarize opinions. [As an aside - anyone who thinks arguments on the Internet are needlessly vitriolic should be thankful they can't read Russian. Forum comments on Russian news sites involve a level of invective, racism, homophobia, conspiracy theory and ad hominems that make Free Republic look like a high school debating club.]

[Kozmik]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

Make no mistake, the punk rock and metal communities do not forget or forsake our own. Whatever the outcome of the "trial", Pussy Riot has already earned a spot in our legends and lore, and these women's brave stance and bold expression will be celebrated in songs long after Putin's life is mentioned only with a snarl and a tone of disgust. Hopefully that day will come sooner than later, thanks in no small part to Nadezhda Tolokonnikova, Maria Alekhina, and Yekaterina Samutsevich.

Madonna is supporting them. She is an international star and when she and others go to Russia to perform or whatever, Vladimir Putin will take notice.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Madonna is supporting them. She is an international star and when she and others go to Russia to perform or whatever, Vladimir Putin will take notice.

She just performed in Moscow on 7 August, and yeah, she clearly showed her support for these ladies.

[aceplace57]

They dragged off Chess champion Kasparov, beat him for protesting outside the courthouse.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...ak-my-leg.html

I'm pretty sure we're seeing the end of any "freedoms" in Russia. Bit by bit Putin is closing his fist. Protests will just give him an excuse to escalate new laws. He knows the world is powerless to interfere in Russia's internal affairs.

A damn shame. We had 20 years to help a free Russia and pissed it away.

Putin recently announced a new military buildup. The next Cold War will be a reality soon.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...MPR_story.html

Now, he says, after being punched in the genitals, thrown in a van and beaten by several police, Kasparov says the police have accused him of biting one of them—an allegation he denies. “They act like animals and they accuse me of biting them,” Kasparov told the Daily Beast in his first interview since being arrested. “Can you imagine what it means to bite someone when you are being beaten? There should be blood on my face. It is beyond any common sense.”

[aceplace57]

Addressing the Debate.

Going after a girls punk rock group will help Putin. It's already been mentioned that their acts inside a church were disgusting. I suspect the average Russian doesn't mind seeing these girls spend a couple years in prison. What happens to them there won't be published. It sends a powerful warning to other dissidents too.

This is all part of Putin's pledge to restore Russia. Cleanup society, rebuild the military and make Russia strong again. Meanwhile he gets the chance to remove any opposition and solidify his power.

[BigT]

Originally Posted by Bricker

Who made that rule?

It's basic morality. And its' what every early Christian did in the Bible. Are you going to argue they are wrong, too?

Whether or not the action is morally correct, which is what is being asked, has jack shit to do with what the law says on the subject. So please address the subject in terms of morality (which, as a Christian, means from the Bible or your church's catechisms) rather than appealing to the law in our country.

Because, as is, my response to what you said is that our laws are wrong. They didn't hurt anyone, and that's ultimately what decides whether an action is wrong or right, and not man-made law.

It boggles my mind that you still can't get that, if something is asking whether something is right or wrong, the question is about morality, and not the law.

[Waxwinged]

Ehh.. former Russian, speaking: punishment's over the top, but desecrating a church with that sort of a display was horrible manners from the band members.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by Waxwinged

Ehh.. former Russian, speaking: punishment's over the top, but desecrating a church with that sort of a display was horrible manners from the band members.

Well, considering that their point was that it was bad manners for the Russian Orthodox Church to involve itself in secular matters of state (in particular by telling people who to vote for), I think they picked the venue where their message would have maximum impact.

[Steken]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

Make no mistake, the punk rock and metal communities do not forget or forsake our own. Whatever the outcome of the "trial", Pussy Riot has already earned a spot in our legends and lore, and these women's brave stance and bold expression will be celebrated in songs long after Putin's life is mentioned only with a snarl and a tone of disgust.

Nonsense.

Plenty of metalheads, inside and outside of Russia, consider the Pussy Riot "protest" despicable. Same goes for that one time one of 'em jammed a frozen chicken up her vagina.

By the way, that earlier "protest" (which hasn't gotten much attention in Western media, for some mysterious reason) sure didn't topple Putin, either.

[Acid Lamp]

Originally Posted by Bricker

For a Catholic church (and I suspect for an Orthodox church as well) the area inside the altar rail and surrounding the tabernacle is not open to the public.

In Orthodox Churches, the altar area is sectioned off by an Iconostas, a sort of faux wall made up of life size icons of saints; this is usually raised up by one or more steps, thus clearly seaprating it from lay areas. Many of them are doors that lead to other preparatory, or sacred areas behind the curtain. In the center are located The Great Doorswhich lead to the altar area. These are opened and closed at differing times during the service. In off times the altar area is closed, and lay people aren't supposed to be up there anyway. During the service, decons and altar servers may be allowed into the altar area in the corners, but often are restricted to the outside or the preparatory chambers to either side of the altar, behind the iconostas. Women are never supposed to be in that area at all. This is common knowledge among communities with large orthodox populations.

As to Pussy Riot, a couple of points.

When you break the law of the land, you should expect to be punished. Even if it is a stupid law, or an unethical one; when you engage in civil disobedience, repercussions from the state are going to be likely.

Russia is not America and our laws and standards do not apply there. Does anyone know the legal precedents used there? Were they upheld or was this a blatant miscarriage of (what passes for)Russian justice? I'm not usually a respect for authority type, but that only really applies to my own country. When in other countries I do not take America around with me, and I know it. Those arguments are really weak.

A prominent punk band has any number of resources available to them to make their point. They chose instead to break the law and provoke in a pretty offensive manner. This isn't a couple of random protestors off the street. They could spread their message at concerts, they already had a public stage.

[Acid Lamp]

Okay having watched the video, A couple of more points.

I was raised Russian Orthodox so I can give a little insight into the severity of what was going on.

First off, they damn well know they aren't supposed to be on the altar space. Secondly, all that bowing is a blatant mockery of some of the most formal parts of the orthodox liturgy. To follow that with idiotic dancing about and shouting etc.. is pretty much as offensive as you can get in an orthodox cathedral without going into nudity or scatalogical behaviour. They are basically mocking and desecrating the altar space, the most sacred space in the church. That would have been extremely bad even if they were men. Given the rather sexist attitude of the chirch it makes it even worse.

I don't think any of those guys were security. I did see some nuns, and what were probably just lay members who volunteer. They seemed pretty upset and surprised by the whole thing. I think it took them some time to figure out what to do.

Even though I"m an atheist, and really don't have a dog in this fight, it does bother me to see someone acting as deliberately disrespectful as Pussy Riot is being. It's not some sort of legitimate protest, it's just vulgar, offensive behaviour seemingly for it's own sake. They could have done their "Punk Prayer" inside and not on the altar and chances are they would have gotten off with a slap on the wrist. Wrapping a turd up in a political flyer does not turn it into delicious candy.

[Timchik]

Originally Posted by Acid Lamp

When you break the law of the land, you should expect to be punished. Even if it is a stupid law, or an unethical one; when you engage in civil disobedience, repercussions from the state are going to be likely.

Sure, but the law of the land that they broke is not the one they were charged (and convicted) under. As I said above, they were convicted of hooliganism motivated by... religious hatred, which is complete and utter nonsense, and that is what shows the Russian prosecutorial/judicial system to be the farcical, politician-controlled puppet it is.

And to Waxwinged: horrible manners it certainly was, but that should not be subject to two years v kolonii obshchego rezhima.

[Boyo Jim]

NOW I remember why this thread caught my eye.

Eight years ago, I did a thread called "Buh bye Rumsfeld. Seymour Hersh is takin' you down!", about the breaking of the Abu Graib torture and and photograph scandal.

That was about American soldiers torturing prisoners on orders that were eventually traced back to the White House. And what were the repercussions?

THIS story is about some rockers making a nuisance of themselves.

So, I'm not holding my breath for the fall of Empire.

Regards,
Nostradamus

[Condescending Robot]

Originally Posted by Acid Lamp

Even though I"m an atheist, and really don't have a dog in this fight, it does bother me to see someone acting as deliberately disrespectful as Pussy Riot is being. It's not some sort of legitimate protest, it's just vulgar, offensive behaviour seemingly for it's own sake. They could have done their "Punk Prayer" inside and not on the altar and chances are they would have gotten off with a slap on the wrist. Wrapping a turd up in a political flyer does not turn it into delicious candy.

Yeah you sound really neutral on this

The Orthodox Church in Russia is an arm of the state, especially in all the areas where the state sucks. Why anyone should refrain from "offending" it is beyond me.

[Acid Lamp]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

Yeah you sound really neutral on this

The Orthodox Church in Russia is an arm of the state, especially in all the areas where the state sucks. Why anyone should refrain from "offending" it is beyond me.

I am. There isn't any reason to go into any religious place of worship and act like a total mocking, ass. It doesn't accomplish anything at all. What they did was the same as if somebody decided to paint a mosque with pig blood, or refuse to take off their shoes in a Buddhist temple and track dirt all over the place. That wasn't a political protest, it was just a sort of offensive "performance art" at best. If Pussy Riot wanted to protest the Church's support of the Putin regime, it could have done so in about a zillion other ways that wouldn't have landed their asses in jail.

I don't approve of the government's tactics, or the sentence.

[JohnT]

Not noticed because of the PR verdict is that on the same day, Moscow bans gay pride parades for 100 years.

[Snowboarder Bo]

"We did forgive them from the very start. But such actions should be cut short by society and authorities," said the cleric, who heads Moscow's Sretensky Monastery.

Archpriest Maxim Kozlov agreed, but he also said on state TV that his church hopes the young women and their supporters change their ways.

"We are simply praying and hoping that these young women and all these people shouting in front of the court building, committing sacrilegious acts not only in Russia but in other countries, realize that their acts are awful," he said. "And despite this the church is asking for mercy within the limits of law."

The women have already been sentenced, and then the church calls for mercy. I suppose it should be no big surprise that the church is making an empty gesture; that's their stock-in-trade, after all.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by JohnT

Not noticed because of the PR verdict is that on the same day, Moscow bans gay pride parades for 100 years.

Wow, that's harsh. I have to agree with this:

Originally Posted by aceplace57

A damn shame. We had 20 years to help a free Russia and pissed it away.

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by aceplace57

A damn shame. We had 20 years to help a free Russia and pissed it away.

You can lead a horse to water...

Do you honestly think that "we" could have made Russia a different country? How?

Putin recently announced a new military buildup. The next Cold War will be a reality soon.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...MPR_story.html

I don't think you now what that term meant. Cold War. All this means that Russia is going to become more and more isolated from the rest of the world.

[clairobscur]

Originally Posted by Bricker

Who made that rule?

You like this question (or similar questions). As I've done in the past, I'll answer again : me.

This is not primarily a legal issue. It's a moral and political one. What kind of action is morally legitimate when facing some level of political oppression? That's obviously is going to be a matter of individual opinion, both about what actions are morally permissible and about the legitimacy (or lack thereof) of Putin's rule.

They got two years. In Virginia, criminal trespass carries a maximum sentence of one year. That doesn't strike me as so dramatically different as to invalidate the sentence.

OK. I'll grant you that (although I'm not sure that they actually trespassed)

Yes, except for the fact that the purpose of a trial is to determine the factual guilt of the parties. If your complaint was that they didn't do it, you'd be on to something

A trial is also about, for instance, delivering a sentence, at which point mitigating circumstances can be a factor. Also, we know what they did. But we don't know how their actions could be qualified under Russian law. Here again, an effective defense can make a difference. Maybe it's even arguable that they didn't commit any crime, for all I know. I don't know what the defense could state, but surely, you're not going to tell me that whether or not you can have a proper defense is irrelevant once you've admitted to have done such or such action.

Besides, again, that's not primarily a dry legal issue. That's about how the court system works in Russia. Especially in cases involving people who look more and more like the Soviet era dissidents. That's about a state machinery which actually is in this case relatively "lenient" when compared to what happened to more serious opponents.

Frankly, when you sentence kids to several years of work camp for singing a politically irreverent song in a church, it's quite a big hint that something is really rotten in the kingdom (not that we needed this case to know it, of course).

[clairobscur]

Originally Posted by JohnT

Not noticed because of the PR verdict is that on the same day, Moscow bans gay pride parades for 100 years.

100 years? Good luck with that. That's beyond ridicule.

[clairobscur]

Originally Posted by Kozmik

Madonna is supporting them. She is an international star and when she and others go to Russia to perform or whatever, Vladimir Putin will take notice.

Take notice? Probably. Care the slighest bit? Of course not. When did Putin display the slightest tendancy to change his ways as a result of external pressures? He takes pride in not doing so, at the contrary.

And Madonna? To plagiarize one of his famous predecessors : "Madonna? How many divisions?"

[John Mace]

Well, just wait until Lady Gaga has her say. Then Putin will start shaking in his boots!

[voltaire]

If Pussy Riot got two years, what does this topless Ukrainian who used a chainsaw to cut down a crucifix deserve?
Link NSFW (bare boobies/non OSHA-approved safety precautions):
liveleak.com/view?i=034_1345223473&p=1
(Copy/Paste above broken link in browser. And if, like me, you're worried about watching a self-scalping about to take place, rest assured that she somehow manages to NOT hurt herself.)

Unfortunately the protest seems more than just a bit misguided when you consider that:

The cross was put up on a high hill near Kiev’s downtown Independence Square during the 2004 pro-democracy Orange Revolution to commemorate the victims of political repression under Joseph Stalin.

http://en.rian.ru/society/20120817/175271764.html

In other topless Ukrainian blondes protesting the Russian Orthodox Church news, there's also this.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Steken

Nonsense.

Plenty of metalheads, inside and outside of Russia, consider the Pussy Riot "protest" despicable. Same goes for that one time one of 'em jammed a frozen chicken up her vagina.

One word: OW

[Condescending Robot]

Originally Posted by Acid Lamp

I am. There isn't any reason to go into any religious place of worship and act like a total mocking, ass. It doesn't accomplish anything at all. What they did was the same as if somebody decided to paint a mosque with pig blood, or refuse to take off their shoes in a Buddhist temple and track dirt all over the place. That wasn't a political protest, it was just a sort of offensive "performance art" at best. If Pussy Riot wanted to protest the Church's support of the Putin regime, it could have done so in about a zillion other ways that wouldn't have landed their asses in jail.

No, there is not in fact any way to protest against Putin without "landing your ass in jail," which is sort of the point.

[Damuri Ajashi]

I don't see the miscarriage of justice.

They broke the law. YOU don't get to decide if their hooliganism (which seemed pretty fucking disrespectful to the church they were in) sprang from religious hatred. It is clear that they aren't really big fans of the church and they practically shat on the alter.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi

I don't see the miscarriage of justice.

They broke the law. YOU don't get to decide if their hooliganism (which seemed pretty fucking disrespectful to the church they were in) sprang from religious hatred. It is clear that they aren't really big fans of the church and they practically shat on the alter.

You don't seem to be paying attention: they aren't big fans of the church acting as Putin's shills. I'll wait here while you search (in vain) for any quotes from them that says they just don't like the church.

[Condescending Robot]

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi

I don't see the miscarriage of justice.

They broke the law. YOU don't get to decide if their hooliganism (which seemed pretty fucking disrespectful to the church they were in) sprang from religious hatred. It is clear that they aren't really big fans of the church and they practically shat on the alter.

What in the world is with all the posters demanding respect for the Russian legal system and the Orthodox Church, of all things? Where do you people come from? Besides Russia, I guess.

[Steken]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

What in the world is with all the posters demanding respect for the Russian legal system and the Orthodox Church, of all things? Where do you people come from? Besides Russia, I guess.

Huh? Me, I'm from Sweden. How is that relevant exactly?

Also: Remember the Danish Muhammed cartoons?

Now imagine that instead of publishing his cartoon in a local rag in the untamed wilds of Buttfuck, Jutland, the cartoonist would have marched right into one of the holiest mosque in all of Islam, say Masjid al-Haram or Al-Aqsa, and spray-painted that shit all over the mihrab.

That's the level of offensiveness here. Not for you, of course, but for many of the world's 150,000,000 Russian-Orthodox Christians.

[Steken]

Originally Posted by Guinastasia

One word: OW

Yes. Not gonna post a link to the video, though, for obvious reasons.

Oh and then there was the time they staged an orgy in a public museum. For some reason, that "protest" failed to spark a new Russian revolution, too.

Let's face it: We're talking G.G. Allin-level stuff here. At least that guy wrote a couple of sweet tunes.

[Acid Lamp]

Originally Posted by Condescending Robot

What in the world is with all the posters demanding respect for the Russian legal system and the Orthodox Church, of all things? Where do you people come from? Besides Russia, I guess.

America, where I expect my legal system and rights under law to be respected while I'm at home. When I'm abroad I make certain to be respectful of the laws of my host country. I don't get to carry an America bubble with me wherever I go. Things aren't the same everywhere, and rights are enforced by the government regardless of whatever pretty speech in the UN might state. They aren't external, eternal, or given by a non-existent deity. I'm not a Russian legal scholar, so I'm not certain what rights and laws Russian citizens enjoy on a regular basis. However the Constitution States:

Article 29.

Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought and speech.
Propaganda or campaigning inciting social, racial, national or religious hatred and strife is impermissible. The propaganda of social, racial, national, religious or language superiority is forbidden.
No one may be coerced into expressing one's views and convictions or into renouncing them.
Everyone shall have the right to seek, get, transfer, produce and disseminate information by any lawful means. The list of information constituting the state secret shall be established by the federal law.
The freedom of the mass media shall be guaranteed. Censorship shall be prohibited.

Bolding mine.

Apparently in Russia, certain kinds of speech are limited in their constitution itself and not just in state or federal laws like we have over here. Now I agree with you that Pussy Riot's performance was politically rather than religiously motivated, but that doesn't mean that it might not meet the criteria for hate speech under Russian law. Frankly, that is all the law cares about. We've seen that a million times in our own country where overly broad laws are used inappropriately to convict people who technically meet the criteria for a transgression. Think of zero tolerance laws for example.

This is an overreach by the Russian government, but it's hardly an egregious transgression of their own constitution. That being the case, I can't muster up a whole lot of outrage over a harsh conviction for a shitty punk band who desecrated a church to make a (sort-of) political point. There is a difference between respecting a government's autonomy and approving of it in total. I don't approve of how Putin strong arms the media, and I don't approve of the church acting on his behalf. However, I'm not a Russian. It isn't my country, my laws, my cultural heritage being disrespected, or a simple cut and dried case of an innocent, peaceful protester being carried off to the gulag.

[Snowboarder Bo]

Orthodox Russian deacon willingly defrocked over Pussy Riot.

Baranov, who had led a quiet life as a deacon in the small city of Tambov, became an Internet celebrity last month when he asked to be defrocked in an open letter to the Moscow patriarchate, saying he was outraged by the church’s stance against three members of the punk band Pussy Riot.

Baranov told The Associated Press on Tuesday that he supports the band’s stunt and does not regret his resignation.

‘‘Everyone prays as they can,’’ Baranov said of the Pussy Riot members. ‘‘And with their act they exposed the ills and blisters of society. We should have done that a long time ago.’’

The Pussy Riot case demonstrated that the church is more attentive to the government than to the needs of its believers, and it is time for a change in the clergy hierarchy, he argued.

Anger with the church began to boil at the time of Putin’s re-election to a third presidential term in March, when Patriarch Kirill strongly backed his bid, calling the 12-year Putin rule a ‘‘miracle of God.’’ Putin, who was facing massive street protests in Moscow against his rule, was eager to have a helping hand by the church in swaying more devout voters in his direction.

‘‘When Hitler and Stalin created their powerful totalitarian regimes, they made use of powerful ideologies,’’ said Father Gleb Yakunin, a former Russian Orthodox Church priest who was defrocked in the 1990s. ‘‘Putin seems to be a good administrator, but (he's) a weak ideologist, so he decided to use something that already exists.’’

After Baranov posted his open letter online, the Tambov regional clergy issued a press release on their website in which they accused him of ‘‘rakish behavior’’ and alcohol abuse, saying that he was using the current political climate and the trial of Pussy Riot as an excuse to leave the church.

The former deacon was subsequently defrocked, although an official defrocking requires confirmation by the patriarch, who is likely to sign the mandate within a few weeks. Officials at Moscow Patriarchate wouldn’t comment on Baranov’s case.

I really don't think that martyring three young women was the smartest move for Putin's government to make, but it seems that the authoritarian streak in Russia goes deep:

‘‘It wasn’t correct for him to write in support (of the Pussy Riot girls),’’ said Larisa Krasnova, a retired military sergeant who had been visiting the church with her grandson. ‘‘I approve of the fact that they were tried because it’s blasphemy and because it’s unforgivable.’’

(bolding mine)

I wonder: what does the ROC actually teach their congregation about Jesus and his life?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

I wonder: what does the ROC actually teach their congregation about Jesus and his life?

Not to make sweeping statements about protests that won't go anywhere?

[Snowboarder Bo]

The Moscow City Court ruled that Yekaterina Samutsevich's sentence should be suspended because she was thrown out of the cathedral by guards before she could remove her guitar from its case and thus did not take part in the performance. The two other defendants squealed with joy and hugged Samutsevich before she was led from the courtroom to be mobbed by friends and journalists waiting outside on the street.

Which begs the question: how was she convicted in the first place?

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo

Which begs the question: how was she convicted in the first place?

Color me shocked -- shocked -- that the justice system in Russia is not up to our standards.