What do you think would have happened if Bin Laden sought asylum in Norway?

[Simple Linctus]

A comment in another thread* mad me wonder. Imagine in an alternative history fairly shortly after 9/11 Bin Laden turns up in Norway somewhere, seeking asylum on the basis he faces cruel and unusual punishment in the United States.

Norway couldn't extradite him to the US unless it had an assurance he would not have faced the death penalty. I also EXPECT that it couldn't extradite him to the US unless it could be sure that he wouldn't face being holed in a SuperMax, and possibly it wouldn't even have extradited if it thought life without parole was an option although I am not so sure on that last supposition. Would the US have given said assurances? If it hadn't, would Norwegian flags be burning all over the US when Norway refuses to give him up? Is some sort of unique and/or shady deal reached?

I just can't imagine either country backing down here.



*This one:

Originally Posted by namatad

/why didnt osama just hide out at the Saudi embassy in Pakistan?

[Martin Hyde]

I think Norway would punt by finding a way to deny him asylum and deporting him back to where he came from, at which point he'd be in the open and immediately captured or killed.

[Simple Linctus]

That would be against his human rights under European Law; they can't do that.

[JoseB]

Originally Posted by Simple Linctus

That would be against his human rights under European Law; they can't do that.

Given that Norway is not part of the EU, I don't think that Norway would be strictly bound to accept that particular piece of legislation.

That said, I think that the most likely outcome would be that Norway would directly deny asylum. "Common criminals" are not generally considered to be entitled to asylum, and I think that there would be quite a few pointers at that time that would indicate that Bin Laden could be considered to be a "common criminal". (*)

Also, I am sure that there would be a horde of Norwegian lawyers ready to show that denying asylum to Bin Laden would be the proper thing to do.

(*) If you were thinking of putting Roman Polansky as a counterexample, he obtained French nationality and French law forbids the extradition of its own citizens out of France. This situation was not related to asylum law. He got in trouble because Switzerland (where that rule does not apply, and where he had some properties that he used to visit from time to time), which had never before bothered him when he went in, decided to arrest him when he went there the last time.

[Simple Linctus]

Originally Posted by JoseB

Given that Norway is not part of the EU, I don't think that Norway would be strictly bound to accept that particular piece of legislation.

It's their membership of the Council of Europe that matters, as that makes them bound to European Court of Human Rights rulings.

Or at least that's my understanding, I am no expert or even amateur at the law. But I am pretty sure no European state (except maybe Belarus) will send someone to their death. Even if they aren't given asylum.

[JoseB]

Originally Posted by Simple Linctus

It's their membership of the Council of Europe that matters, as that makes them bound to European Court of Human Rights rulings.

Or at least that's my understanding, I am no expert or even amateur at the law. But I am pretty sure no European state (except maybe Belarus) will send someone to their death. Even if they aren't given asylum.

Oh, I have the feeling that in the case of Bin Laden they would make an exception. That is what government lawyers are for: to find legal justification for whatever acts their government takes. And I am pretty sure that they would be able to find it.

[Oakminster]

If they'd granted him asylum, a few months later he'd have been found dead of natural causes*.




A gunshot wound in the head naturally causes someone to die. Or possibly some exotic poison. Either way, he would shuffle off this mortal coil. And the assailant, if any, would never be caught or even identified. And Tom Clancy would write another book with a plot "ripped from today's headlines".

[Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

If they'd granted him asylum, a few months later he'd have been found dead of natural causes*.




A gunshot wound in the head naturally causes someone to die. Or possibly some exotic poison. Either way, he would shuffle off this mortal coil. And the assailant, if any, would never be caught or even identified. And Tom Clancy would write another book with a plot "ripped from today's headlines".

Or a vial of Auntie Methabel's Natural Causes. (Shoutout to Girl Genius fans).

[GreasyJack]

I think it kind of depends on how soon after 9/11 we're talking. I would think some sort of handover deal would have been possible before the US started playing fast and loose with international law (i.e Iraq, Gitmo, waterboarding) as the War on Terror geared up. Afterwards, I would imagine that some sort of international tribunal would be arranged, with or without US participation, but I think there would be some serious credibility issues with the US making assurances of how they would treat him.

[straight man]

It's worth pointing out that he's responsible for the deaths of people from many, many countries other than the United States — surely one or another of those would have a legitimate claim to extradition and methods of punishment that are in line with European human rights law. (After all, many of the countries in question are European!)

[Muffin]

The USA would agree to not apply the death penalty.

[Oakminster]

Originally Posted by Muffin

The USA would agree to not apply the death penalty.

To Osama bin Laden? Under the Bush Administration? In his first term?

I think not.

[greenslime1951]

They'd kill him slowly by feeding him nothing but lutefisk (maybe not all that slowly).

[Ravenman]

My harebrained guess would be that Norway would simply deport him. Bin Laden clearly would not be suitable for any kind of asylum claim. Deportation might be more feasible for Norway than extradition. You can bet that wherever UBL would go, he would arrive to meet a few Americans that would be very helpful in allowing him to make his unplanned connecting flight.

[Muffin]

Originally Posted by Oakminster

To Osama bin Laden? Under the Bush Administration? In his first term?

I think not.

Let me rephrase my statement. The USA would not get the fellow unless it agreed not to have him face the death penalty.

[John Mace]

They'd trick him into taking a reindeer hunting trip with Dick Cheney disguised as a Saami convert to Islam.

[adaher]

I think they'd take the path of least resistance and try him for terrorism under Norway's laws. He gets 20 years and then they'd declare him nuts and hold him in custody if he hadn't died yet. That's what they are going to do with Breivik.

[BigT]

I don't see it being good for Norway if they wound up housing Bin Laden. The whole "human rights" idea worked with Brevik because he's their problem. But it wouldn't pass muster with Bin Laden.

Under Bush, I could even see the U.S. saying they wouldn't pursue capital punishment, only for Bin Laden to accidentally wind up dead at some point. He'll have hanged himself in his cell or something. Or have had a bomb on him that went off--suicide bombers. And everyone who posited a conspiracy would be laughed about.

We'd find out there was an actual conspiracy, but that would be decades later, and everyone would just ignore it and move on, either because the U.S. has become better, or it is no longer relevant on the world stage.

[Simplicio]

I think he's still a Saudi citizen, so presumably they'd deport him there, where the Saudi's would either hand him over to the US or execute him themselves.

[clairobscur]

Norwegian courts might have jurisdiction over people who committed crimes against Norwegian citizens. In which case, he could have been tried there to begin with (assuming at least one Norwegian has been killed on 9/11).

[Dissonance]

Originally Posted by Simple Linctus

Imagine in an alternative history fairly shortly after 9/11 Bin Laden turns up in Norway somewhere, seeking asylum on the basis he faces cruel and unusual punishment in the United States.

He's denied asylum, taken prisoner and shipped off to the US. Norway is a member of NATO, and Article 5 was invoked as a result of the attacks. Bin Laden was at war with Norway; political asylum isn't granted to an enemy you are at war with.

[Northern Piper]

Originally Posted by Dissonance

He's denied asylum, taken prisoner and shipped off to the US. Norway is a member of NATO, and Article 5 was invoked as a result of the attacks. Bin Laden was at war with Norway; political asylum isn't granted to an enemy you are at war with.

This strikes me as the most likely - immediately after the 9/11 attacks, NATO unanimously invoked Article 5, meaning that all NATO countries were at war with al Quaeda and Bin Laden was its commander. It's just the same as Himmler or Goering being captured by the Allies.

[Mosier]

Originally Posted by Simple Linctus

It's their membership of the Council of Europe that matters, as that makes them bound to European Court of Human Rights rulings.

Or at least that's my understanding, I am no expert or even amateur at the law. But I am pretty sure no European state (except maybe Belarus) will send someone to their death. Even if they aren't given asylum.

So anyone who is facing a death penalty anywhere in the world will be granted asylum anywhere in Europe? Why hasn't anyone fled to Europe to avoid the death penalty then?

[Northern Piper]

They will extradite, provided the requesting country gives an assurance that the person will not be executed if convicted. That's also how Canada handles it.

[Johnny Bravo]

Originally Posted by Mosier

So anyone who is facing a death penalty anywhere in the world will be granted asylum anywhere in Europe? Why hasn't anyone fled to Europe to avoid the death penalty then?

This is my question - if I'm ever facing the death penalty, all I have to do is get to Canada or the EU and they will absolutely not turn me over without an assurance that I won't be killed?

[Baron Greenback]

Originally Posted by Johnny Bravo

This is my question - if I'm ever facing the death penalty, all I have to do is get to Canada or the EU and they will absolutely not turn me over without an assurance that I won't be killed?

Indeed, any country who has signed all the clauses of the ECHR will protect you against being extradited for a death penalty offense. That's not an EU thing, it's a Council of Europe one, and it is a bit "aspirational" for a couple of territories.

[Northern Piper]

Mosier, There's a difference between your first and second posts. Your first post asked if they will get asylum, which normally means that the asylum country would keep them. That's not the case - they are still subject to extradition under the extradition treaties. Your second question asks if the European country or Canada would only extradite on condition that they not be executed - that is the case, to my understanding.

As to why US individuals accused of murder don't flee to one of those countries, there are a few possible responses. First, don't over-estimate the sophistication and knowledge of the average person accused of murder. I'd be surprised if this point is well-known generally. Second, it's difficult to flee once the person is on wanted lists. THey have to clear customs/immigration; with appropriate I.d. These days, international flights have their passenger lists pre-checked before thy are allowed to take off, so getting to Europe is difficult once you're under suspicion.

Canada would be easier to reach by land, which I think may reduce the number of checks, but still may no be easy to do for someone who doesn't have much resources.

Of course, if the individual flees before they come under suspicion, it may be easier, but there's still the travel costs to consider.

[Northern Piper]

Oops - I thought mosier made both posts - I see Johnny Bravo made the second one I was responding to. Sorry for the confusion.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by Johnny Bravo

This is my question - if I'm ever facing the death penalty, all I have to do is get to Canada or the EU and they will absolutely not turn me over without an assurance that I won't be killed?

Canada has no specific law on this matter. The Supreme Court ruled in 2001 that the Justice Minister should request assurance that the death penalty not be applied except in "Exceptional circumstances." It did not define what those circumstances would be, but I'm pretty sure Osama bin Laden would have been considered one.

Canada's government is generally a bit more insistent on the matter if the accused is a Canadian citizen.

[Martin Hyde]

Extradition and refusal of asylum are not the same thing, though. Is Norway obligated to grant asylum to anyone who might face death in their home country? If that is the case why can't every Alawite in Syria move to Norway and be granted asylum and permanent residence?

[John Mace]

Originally Posted by Martin Hyde

Extradition and refusal of asylum are not the same thing, though. Is Norway obligated to grant asylum to anyone who might face death in their home country? If that is the case why can't every Alawite in Syria move to Norway and be granted asylum and permanent residence?

They'd have to get an entry visa first. In the OP's hypothetical, I think we have to assume that ObL is secreted into Norway somehow and the Norwegian government then has do deal with the fact this he is already in the country.

[Northern Piper]

no, the test for asylum is persecution of some sort, not that the individual faces some sort of criminal sanction. In extradition cases, the country where the individual is found can impose conditions on the extradition. In asylum matters, the country can decline to turn over the individual.

Risk of death can play in both instances, but in extradition cases, the country where the individual is found can impose the condition that the individual not be executed if found guilty. However, someone who is alleging that he's at risk of extra-judicial execution, or execution following a show trial, may be able to make the case that he needs asylum. But there are limitations on that principle as well; there is a clean hands aspect to asylum - if you've been persecuting and killing your own people for 20 years, and then flee when they finally topple you, you can't claim asylum because they want to get you. You might be able to argue for a condition of no death penalty, or request that you be turned over to an international court because the court system in your own country can't be trusted to give you a fair trial.

[Marley23]

Bin Laden was not a Saudi citizen. Don't forget that Al Qaeda really hates the decadent Saudi government for sins including allowing Western soldiers into the country. He left Saudi Arabia in 1992 and was stripped of his citizenship two years later. So there is no way the Saudi government would have allowed him to be deported into the country. In fact I'm having trouble picturing any country stepping up and telling Norway that they were willing to grant him asylum. I assume his request would either be denied or he'd be held until he could be charged with crimes against humanity.

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Simplicio

I think he's still a Saudi citizen, so presumably they'd deport him there, where the Saudi's would either hand him over to the US or execute him themselves.

Didn't Saudi Arabia revoke his citizenship?

Answer: Yep.

When U.S. troops were stationed (1990) on Saudi soil during Persian Gulf War he became violently opposed to the Saudi monarchy and the United States. After he was caught smuggling arms in 1991, he went to Sudan, where he began financing terrorist training camps while investing in businesses and increasing his fortune. His Saudi citizenship was revoked in 1994.

[Kobal2]

Originally Posted by Marley23

I assume his request would either be denied or he'd be held until he could be charged with crimes against humanity.

This. I would assume that Norway wouldn't agree to deport him to the US, but the Hague ? Now that's more likely. They don't hang any more, but life without parole would have been a cinch.

[Lust4Life]

If the Yanks hadn't have got him, we would.

And without crashing a helicopter doing it.