Marinating steak in... club soda?

[iwakura43]

My flatmate, who is from Uzbekistan by way of Israel, marinates his steak in seltzer, where I would use something acidic like Italian dressing or a vinegar-based sauce. I asked him about it, and he says it's something his whole family does--yet I'd never heard of this before. Wouldn't the carbon dioxide in the soda be released fairly quickly? What sort of physical or chemical effect does soaking meat in seltzer water have?

[DanBlather]

Club soda is acidic.

[Squink]

Originally Posted by iwakura43

What sort of physical or chemical effect does soaking meat in seltzer water have?

Probably about the same as soaking the meat in water. You'll get a fully hydrated, juicy, chunk of meat.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Squink

Probably about the same as soaking the meat in water. You'll get a fully hydrated, juicy, chunk of meat.

Would that work? I was always under the impression salt was needed (which i guess is present in club soda, but not selzer) for the moisture to be drawn into the meat. That said, I wouldn't have thought club soda has enough salinity to make it work well, but maybe my science on all of this is off.

[Una Persson]

FWIW, in the 1950's 7-Up tried to launch several cookbooks of recipes involving doing all sorts of terrible things with the soda, including marinades.

[AskNott]

I just checked the labels of Canada Dry club soda (55 gms sodium), and Schweppes Seltzer (less than 1 gm sodium) in a 10-ounce bottle. So, the club soda might have enough sodium to get some osmosis going, but the seltzer has no more than tap water. The seltzer might even pull out some of the meat's natural salt.

ETA: Osmosis "tries" to even out the concentration of dissolved minerals on each side of the cell membrane.

[LurkMeister]

My mother used to add 7-Up to her meatloaf. Every so often, I would mention this to someone and get strange looks. I guess I now know where she got that from.

[Mindfield]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

Would that work? I was always under the impression salt was needed (which i guess is present in club soda, but not selzer) for the moisture to be drawn into the meat. That said, I wouldn't have thought club soda has enough salinity to make it work well, but maybe my science on all of this is off.

Club Soda contains sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) which, among other things, can be used as a meat tenderizer. Club Soda also contains sodium citrate, which is a slightly tart form of salt, and would also aid in the tenderizing process. Respectively, these are the second and third ingredients on the label, right after carbonated water, so they are in relatively high concentration.

[Colibri]

Seltzering steaks I think is a question more apt for CS than GQ.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Mindfield

Respectively, these are the second and third ingredients on the label, right after carbonated water, so they are in relatively high concentration.

How does that follow? All we know is that there is less sodium bicarbonate and sodium citrate than carbonated water. We have no inkling as to its concentration from that info, unless there is a fourth ingredient we have a known amount for.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Una Persson

FWIW, in the 1950's 7-Up tried to launch several cookbooks of recipes involving doing all sorts of terrible things with the soda, including marinades.

Coke is also (not unusually, in my opinion) used in marinades and even sauces. I've seen 7-Up in Filipino chicken dishes. I don't think in and of itself flavored soda being used in a marinade is particularly weird.

[Mindfield]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

How does that follow? All we know is that there is less sodium bicarbonate and sodium citrate than carbonated water. We have no inkling as to its concentration from that info, unless there is a fourth ingredient we have a known amount for.

Canada Dry reports that their club soda contains 80mg sodium per 8oz serving. Schweppes' Club Soda contains 65mg for the same volume, while their tonic water contains 35mg, so there are some numbers for you.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Mindfield

Canada Dry reports that their club soda contains 80mg sodium per 8oz serving, so there's one number for you.

Yes, we have numbers from upthread as well (see AskNott). What I'm saying is your statement doesn't necessarily lead to your conclusion. Plus what does "relatively high concentration" mean? I don't consider 80mg sodium per 8 oz relatively high. Brine is usually about 16 parts water to 1 part salt by volume. According to my calculations, an 8 oz brine would require 3 teaspoons of salt for the proper salinity, in other words, about 6900 mg of sodium.

I'm not sure the club soda quantities of sodium are enough for any sort of osmotic effect (I'm saying no definitely) or any "tenderizing" effect (I don't know that salt has any tenderizing effect other than osmosis, though).

[Squink]

Originally Posted by AskNott

ETA: Osmosis "tries" to even out the concentration of dissolved minerals on each side of the cell membrane.

Osmotic pressure also drives the net flow of water from the less salty to the more salty side of a membrane. Even a distilled water marinade will give you a juicier, less salty chunk of meat.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Squink

Osmotic pressure also drives the net flow of water from the less salty to the more salty side of a membrane. Even a distilled water marinade will give you a juicier, less salty chunk of meat.

I would have thought leeching out the salt from the steak would leave a drier piece of meat. I was under the impression that you needed a concentration of salt water higher than the concentration of salt in the meat to make the meat moister--if this does work, then why does nobody recommend soaking your meat in water before cooking it? I think an experiment is in order.

[Ogre]

Folks, carbon dioxide in water leads to the production of a small amount of carbonic acid in solution, which means that club soda is acidic.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Ogre

Folks, carbon dioxide in water leads to the production of a small amount of carbonic acid in solution, which means that club soda is acidic.

I think we established that in post 2, didn't we?

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

I think we established that in post 2, didn't we?

Right, but tenderizing meat is accelerated by acidification. It essentially mimics and accelerates decay (and in fact helps degrade the collagen sheath most responsible for "toughness" in meat.) Read "Molecular Gastronomy," by Herv This. Actually, the text in question is online here.

[pulykamell]

Originally Posted by Ogre

Right, but tenderizing meat is accelerated by acidification. It essentially mimics and accelerates decay (and in fact helps degrade the collagen sheath most responsible for "toughness" in meat.) Read "Molecular Gastronomy," by Herv This. Actually, the text in question is online here.

Right. Which is exactly why you usually have an acid in a marinade. I was just caught up in the whole osmotic debate.

[Ogre]

Originally Posted by pulykamell

Right. Which is exactly why you usually have an acid in a marinade. I was just caught up in the whole osmotic debate.

Ah. I was just addressing the question in the OP. I sort of scanned past the osmosis debate.

[Bill Door]

AS long as we're not in GQ, and I won't have to support this with cites, is that almost everyone is wrong about the mechanism for making brined meat moist. The theory I have always heard is that osmotic pressure drives water out of the meat, diluting the brine solution in accordance with the osmotic effect, but at some point some other process takes over, and the water and flavor is somehow sucked back in. They never have an explanation of the other process, or why it should occur, but there it is.

My theory is this, osmosis only removes water. By doing so two things happen, one, the natural flavors in the meat remain in the meat, and are more concentrated. The other is that some water is removed from the individual cells of muscle tissue in the meat. This means that when they expand in cooking they don't burst and lose all of their water.

I think brining works because it's better to have 100% of 60% of the water in a cell than to have 0% of 100%. Think of each cell as a little balloon full of water that you're going to heat up. The full ones will explode and lose everything, the half full ones will retain what they still have.

[crowmanyclouds]

Originally Posted by Una Persson

FWIW, in the 1950's 7-Up tried to launch several cookbooks of recipes involving doing all sorts of terrible things with the soda, including marinades.

Cooking with 7-UP, mmm 7-Up in milk (where's that pukey smiley?).

CMC+fnord!

[Contrapuntal]

Some thoughts on brining.

More thoughts.

[don't ask]

As a big fan of beef and guinness pie I adopted the recipe I use for ginger chicken to include a bottle of naturally brewed ginger beer. I now marinate the chicken in the ginger beer and lime juice with the spices.

[aruvqan]

Originally Posted by don't ask

As a big fan of beef and guinness pie I adopted the recipe I use for ginger chicken to include a bottle of naturally brewed ginger beer. I now marinate the chicken in the ginger beer and lime juice with the spices.

drool ..

i happen to have some ginger beer, but no lime. How do you think it would be with either orange marmelade or lingonberry preserves?

Sort of stuck in the house as I am on sick leave right now and mrAru has the car and is headed to his job.

[got my parathyroids yoiked out last wednesday so I am off until halloween=)]

[don't ask]

I'd give it a go. I regularly use marmalade with pork.

I'd make a marinade of:

ginger beer
chopped fresh ginger
marmalade
garlic
chopped chilis
some chopped onion
a little salt or soy sauce

marinate the chicken in this mix and then you have two choices of how to cook it:

either slowly poach it in the liquid and serve with some greens - snow peas, sugar snap peas, chinese brocolli, bok choy with some of the liquid mixed with honey as a sauce or

take out the chicken and the spices, reduce the marinade (honey optional) and then use all with veges in a stir fry.

Serve with rice or noodles.

[The Chao Goes Mu]

I'm looking forward to trying the Club Soda marinade. I've used beer, wine, champagne, and everything else I've scrounged my fridge and pantry for but the Club Soda is a new one.

It's funny that I hadn't thought about it. My Mom, since the dawning of the ages, has cooked kielbasa in soda pop. 4 litres of Coke, cooks the kielbasa until the cola boils down and the casing is browned. You won't find juicier kielbasa. Yummy. Now she uses diet soda and it's just as good, just less sugary.

[An Arky]

You can make excellent beef cho cho's by marinating the beef strips in Dr. Pepper.

[barjoe]

Interesting that your room mate is Israeli. Kosher salt is called such because it's used in koshering meat, which leaches out blood and tenderizes meat to some degree. Bottled carbonated water not only removes the residual salt but further loosens and softens connective tissue. For steaks cover with kosher salt 1 hour for each inch of thickness, moisture will leach out. Rinse off salt and marinate for an additional hour in seltzer and completely dry with a paper towel. This works great for meat that's not well marbled, they get very tender. You should cut steaks very thick as the will lose a cm or so in thickness. When you cook the steak don't add salt, it'll still be salty enough, just a little black pepper. Great method for tenderizing meat!

[Little Nemo]

But never marinate a cut of meat for five years.