factual question re: judaism and kosher

[dontbesojumpy]

i have a pair of older friends who are moving and i am helping.
the wife has been philosophically buying into judaism and is in the process of converting (i make that distinction because she wasn't born jewish and was raised protestant christian).

the husband ran an errand and brought me back a diet soda. the wife grabbed it and checked the label for a Kosher emblem, then told me since she was converting the rest of the way, they would not be allowing Treif (non-kosher) products into the new home.

is that actually a thing Jewish people do...that there's a law regarding even allowing non-kosher items to ever enter you home?

if so, what is the logic?
if so, what about the families that lived in the home before (it's a mid-70s era home, so many people lived there before).

i am not sure if this is a jewish thing or just a stricture she came up with, but i am interested.

bear in mind she also nearly disfriended me for purchasing some medical specimen human skulls on behalf of a friend (they were never for me to own). she claimed those people's soul would never reach heaven because their body was separated. i've never heard any religions say that--esp not of the Abrahamic variety.

actually feel free to answer either one of those two things...

[Trinopus]

There have been, in the past, Christian groups that held that the state of the body upon burial would be reflected in the resurrected body at the last judgement. Such believers resisted amputation of limbs, for instance, holding that their eternal heavenly body would be minus one leg or arm. They opposed cremation, for obvious reasons.

(Seems absurd; one would then be happy to die young and healthy, rather than old and feeble?)

Today, very few Christians formally believe this, and yet the idea persists among many Christians at a kind of superstitious level. Their priests and ministers will tell them not to worry about it, but they still have a resistance to amputation or cremation.

Even modern Christianity humors this superstition in expressing a preference for a whole body at the time of the funeral. They try to get all the parts together. There have been lawsuits regarding bodies that were buried, with parts in one location and parts in another; descendants of the deceased have sought to have the errant parts re-united.

Obviously, in some situations, it just can't be done. Many of the bodies of the victims at the World Trade Center were minced as fine as confetti.

But think of it theologically: if it were possible to damn a soul to hell forever, simply by cutting off someone's head and taking it away from the rest of the body, that gives power to mortal men which ought to be reserved to God almighty. It's a strange version of Christianity that would give me the power to overrule God's final judgement!

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy

bear in mind she also nearly disfriended me for purchasing some medical specimen human skulls on behalf of a friend (they were never for me to own). she claimed those people's soul would never reach heaven because their body was separated. i've never heard any religions say that--esp not of the Abrahamic variety.

actually feel free to answer either one of those two things...

I can't answer for how common the belief is, but yes, it exists. We were taught in nursing school that for some cultures (Orthodox Jews and Muslims were mentioned specifically, but it was suggested we ask everyone), any body parts, including bandages with large amounts of blood on them, should be packaged for return to the patient's family so they could be buried with the patient.

I was never clear if this was required for non-fatal loss of body parts. I mean, if you have a foot amputated but you're then discharged to home alive, do you want your foot in a paper bag? What the hell are you going to do with it for the next 40 years?

I also just finished reading The Dovekeepers, a work of well-researched historical fiction, where the destruction of bodies and the subsequent failure of the souls to reach heaven was a more than minor plot point. The book was set during the Jewish resistance/Roman siege of Masada in the first century, from the point of view of several Jewish women. (Not a terribly good book, but yes, they were positively verklempt that people whose heads were chopped off or whose bones were scattered by jackals could not enter heaven.)

[Nava]

Asking for a move to GQ, where it'll be more likely to get a factual answer.

In any case:
re. treif items, in theory there shouldn't be any in the house to avoid cross-contamination, but there's a logical limit to that - treif includes for example mixed fibers, yet I doubt the most observant of Jews will ever require the plumber to show his clothes' orginal labels.

[dontbesojumpy]

^all that's news to me. my father was a minister and i grew up in various denominations of christian churches. it was always a staple to play up the fleeting, feeble nature of our mortal form and how there's not reason to worry because we're all due for a perfect form in heavy.

because of that, me and folks kinda chuckled at the notion of the medical specimen skulls. we all agreed: we'll be dead. we certainly won't care.

^^all that makes me wonder about the "doom" of organ donors. 'way to be nice and DAMN YOURSELF.'

i have to tread lightly with this particular woman when it comes to matter of religion or philosophies. she opts in to things with a zealous fervor, and often the only option is either conflict or avoidance.

so i am not about to ask her directly either of these things...

[Marley23]

Moved to General Questions from Great Debates.

[tomndebb]

I agree that this will get swifter and better responses in General Questions, so off it goes.

[tomndebb]

I was THAT close.

[Shmendrik]

1)There's no law about not allowing non-kosher items into your house per se, although Halacha-observant Jews may not derive any benefit from some non-kosher foods, notably mixtures of meat and milk. Families with small children might also feel that it's easier to just keep non-kosher food items out of their house.

Incidentally, virtually every kind of soda sold in the United States is kosher, diet or otherwise.


2) Judaism puts great emphasis on respect for the dead, which includes swift burial of all body parts. However, the idea that unburied body parts will "prevent the soul from reaching heaven" is more of a folk belief than a formal Jewish teaching.

WhyNot: Yes, amputated body parts would be buried even if their owner is still alive.

[dontbesojumpy]

Originally Posted by Nava

Asking for a move to GQ, where it'll be more likely to get a factual answer.

In any case:
re. treif items, in theory there shouldn't be any in the house to avoid cross-contamination, but there's a logical limit to that - treif includes for example mixed fibers, yet I doubt the most observant of Jews will ever require the plumber to show his clothes' orginal labels.

she goes fullbore hardcore on things, so i am really curious how this plays out re: hired help. they hire everything done (painters are in the house now/lawncare people/hotub maintenance/photoshopping lessons and so on). as i said, she snatched my diet coke because she was all set to not allow me to bring it when we took the load to the new house.

she also requested that from now on i please never bring my own food or drinks over.

my first thought was about gum or candy i keep in my pockets. "uh oh..."

but what about this: the husband is a prolific chain smoker. cigs are not kosher (he smokes the gold box of marborols). and i know he's not cotton to give that up, nor keep them out of the house, so the whole thing makes me want to call shenanigans.

i dont know why, but i have way more of a problem with people who implement proselytizing strictures but allow for arbitrary caveats than people who don't care even at all. i reckon that's a character flaw on my part, but it is what it is.

[dontbesojumpy]

Originally Posted by Shmendrik

1)There's no law about not allowing non-kosher items into your house per se, although Halacha-observant Jews may not derive any benefit from some non-kosher foods, notably mixtures of meat and milk. Families with small children might also feel that it's easier to just keep non-kosher food items out of their house.

Incidentally, virtually every kind of soda sold in the United States is kosher, diet or otherwise.


2) Judaism puts great emphasis on respect for the dead, which includes swift burial of all body parts. However, the idea that unburied body parts will "prevent the soul from reaching heaven" is more of a folk belief than a formal Jewish teaching.

WhyNot: Yes, amputated body parts would be buried even if their owner is still alive.

is there are term for abhorrence to non-kosher items in one's home?
have you heard of this...or is it common?

[Nametag]

Judaism is divided on the subject, but there is at least a substantial minority which believes in the literal resurrection of the dead at some point in the future, and division of the body will prevent this. Souls never reaching heaven, on the other hand, sounds like a confused half-Christian personal superstition. Most Jews do not believe in an afterlife, at least not in a heaven-or-hell sense.

Treif (literally "torn," as in meat from an animal killed in the wild) can contaminate a kosher kitchen, so that it requires kashering (cleaning and purifying), but I think the usual belief is that you actually have to cook treif in order to do this. However, there is a tradition that unclean things can contaminate clean things by touch, so in some homes the dairy dishes mustn't touch the meat dishes, etc. It's usually quite practical to say that having treif in the house creates an unacceptable risk of eating it, but I don't think the mere act of touching a can containing soda of uncertain provenance would contaminate the countertops, in most viewpoints.

As for previous occupants, the kitchen should have been kashered when they moved in, so no problems there.

IANAR; in fact, IANEJ.

[WhyNot]

Originally Posted by Shmendrik

WhyNot: Yes, amputated body parts would be buried even if their owner is still alive.

Thanks! Do they need to be buried in the same place as the rest of the body will eventually go?

[Shmendrik]

Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy

she goes fullbore hardcore on things, so i am really curious how this plays out re: hired help. they hire everything done (painters are in the house now/lawncare people/hotub maintenance/photoshopping lessons and so on). as i said, she snatched my diet coke because she was all set to not allow me to bring it when we took the load to the new house.

she also requested that from now on i please never bring my own food or drinks over.

my first thought was about gum or candy i keep in my pockets. "uh oh..."

but what about this: the husband is a prolific chain smoker. cigs are not kosher (he smokes the gold box of marborols). and i know he's not cotton to give that up, nor keep them out of the house, so the whole thing makes me want to call shenanigans.

i dont know why, but i have way more of a problem with people who implement proselytizing strictures but allow for arbitrary caveats than people who don't care even at all. i reckon that's a character flaw on my part, but it is what it is.

Diet Coke is definitely kosher.

Cigarettes don't have to be kosher, unless you eat them, but it's most likely forbidden by halacha because you're supposed to take care of your health. Also, I can't imagine what non-kosher ingredients a cigarette might have.

[Shmendrik]

Originally Posted by Nametag

Judaism is divided on the subject, but there is at least a substantial minority which believes in the literal resurrection of the dead at some point in the future, and division of the body will prevent this. Souls never reaching heaven, on the other hand, sounds like a confused half-Christian personal superstition. Most Jews do not believe in an afterlife, at least not in a heaven-or-hell sense.

Traditional/Orthodox Judaism includes the literal resurrection of the dead, and belief in an afterlife, as a central principal of faith. However, there is no doctrine, as far as I know, that division of the body will prevent this - especially if it wasn't by the person's own choice.

Treif (literally "torn," as in meat from an animal killed in the wild) can contaminate a kosher kitchen, so that it requires kashering (cleaning and purifying), but I think the usual belief is that you actually have to cook treif in order to do this. However, there is a tradition that unclean things can contaminate clean things by touch, so in some homes the dairy dishes mustn't touch the meat dishes, etc. It's usually quite practical to say that having treif in the house creates an unacceptable risk of eating it, but I don't think the mere act of touching a can containing soda of uncertain provenance would contaminate the countertops, in most viewpoints.

As for previous occupants, the kitchen should have been kashered when they moved in, so no problems there.

IANAR; in fact, IANEJ.

There's a certain skeeviness factor of having non-kosher food in your home, but it's not really a prohibition. Also, (clean) dairy dishes can touch (clean) meat dishes all they want, as long as it doesn't lead to mixed dancing.

[dontbesojumpy]

Originally Posted by Shmendrik

Diet Coke is definitely kosher.

Cigarettes don't have to be kosher, unless you eat them, but it's most likely forbidden by halacha because you're supposed to take care of your health. Also, I can't imagine what non-kosher ingredients a cigarette might have.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=603640

what i was told is the problem is bring any non-kosher items into the house. consuming them there wasn't the issue. cross-contamination doesn't *seem* to be the issue, since i have been asked not to bring anything personal, in a bottle, as a beverage or anything else.

allowing the trief over the threshold was the issue.

that is why i wondered if there's law or principle in play that disallows someone bringing trief beyond the mezuzah.

[ZPG Zealot]

Originally Posted by Shmendrik

Diet Coke is definitely kosher.

Cigarettes don't have to be kosher, unless you eat them, but it's most likely forbidden by halacha because you're supposed to take care of your health. Also, I can't imagine what non-kosher ingredients a cigarette might have.

For some highly religious Jews it's not a matter of cigarettes being kosher or not, but that smoking them on the sabbat meets their definition of a forbidden work activity.

[Shmendrik]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

Thanks! Do they need to be buried in the same place as the rest of the body will eventually go?

Probably not, but some more mystically-inclined Jews (like Chassidim) might do that.

[Shmendrik]

Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot

For some highly religious Jews it's not a matter of cigarettes being kosher or not, but that smoking them on the sabbat meets their definition of a forbidden work activity.

That's a different issue. Smoking cigarettes on the Sabbath is certainly forbidden by halacha, but there are plenty of Orthodox smokers who manage to abstain for a day.

[-getitrite]

This little site is very good, it also list all 613 mitzvot. Safe, lots of information about holidays and food.


http://www.jewfaq.org/index.htm

[dontbesojumpy]

Originally Posted by Shmendrik

That's a different issue. Smoking cigarettes on the Sabbath is certainly forbidden by halacha, but there are plenty of Orthodox smokers who manage to abstain for a day.

as well as the straight dope post linked above about the non-kosher ingredients in cigarettes, i found this.

i found another article that says cigarettes are not trief, but remain un-kosher due to health reasons.

i would like to reiterate what i said in my last post for clarification:

is there doctrine forbidding trief to simply *be* in a kashered home?
what is the process of kashering?

[Nava]

Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...d.php?t=603640

what i was told is the problem is bring any non-kosher items into the house. consuming them there wasn't the issue. cross-contamination doesn't *seem* to be the issue, since i have been asked not to bring anything personal, in a bottle, as a beverage or anything else.

allowing the trief over the threshold was the issue.

that is why i wondered if there's law or principle in play that disallows someone bringing trief beyond the mezuzah.

Have you ever met someone who was first-generation, or even recently naturalized, and who ranted to Heaven and Hell about how "immigrants are destroying [insert country here]"? Both conversion and migration involve cultural shifts: some people spend their life pining for "the old country", some try to be "more Roman than the Romans". Your friend sounds like she's the second kind in anything she takes her hand to. She doesn't know the rules well and doesn't understand their whys and wherefores, so she applies them with a heavier hand than someone who's really familiar with them.

[Shmendrik]

Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy

\
is there doctrine forbidding trief to simply *be* in a kashered home?
what is the process of kashering?

No.

The process for kashering depends on the material being kashered. A metal sink would have to be cleaned and then have boiling water poured on it. Metal cutlery is also immersed in boiling water. A granite countertop would also have boiling water poured on it. Wooden or corian might have to be sanded down. The self-cleaning cycle on most ovens is usually hot enough to kasher them after they've been thoroughly cleaned. Ceramic or plastic dishes generally can't be kashered. Etc, etc.

[Nawth Chucka]

I cleaned for a handful of very observant Jewish families and brought my own lunch to go in the fridge. No one ever peeped so long as I only stored the contained food in the fridge, never ate it in the house (to their knowledge).
If your friends have a basement kitchen it's got to be kashered on its own. Two of my families kept the basement kitchen strictly 'kosher for Passover' and simply didn't use their upstairs kitchen during Passover (rather than kashering it for Passover'.
I've never seen the exact same kosher rules from house to house. Same goes for placement of mezuzot - front door only, only exterior doors, all rooms w/ a door, all doorways except bathrooms or basements or closets, etc.

[Kimmy_Gibbler]

Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy

is that actually a thing Jewish people do...that there's a law regarding even allowing non-kosher items to ever enter you home?

No, not really. But it does sound like the kind of thing that a religious tourist might think up, especially if he or she were looking for ways to be really conspicuous about there latest sectarian enthusiasm. See, e.g., Walter Sobchak.

[cmkeller]

dontbesojumpy:

is that actually a thing Jewish people do...that there's a law regarding even allowing non-kosher items to ever enter you home?

if so, what is the logic?
if so, what about the families that lived in the home before (it's a mid-70s era home, so many people lived there before).

It's not Jewish law to not let non-kosher food in the house, but non-kosher food on ones table, dishes and the remnants of it in the sink or dishwasher - mainly if it's hot (unlikely for diet soda, of course) - can render the item in question unfit for use for kashrut-observers. Certainly the easiest way to prevent that possibility is to stop it at the door rather than control the spread of it once it's inside.

Regarding the families that lives there before, assuming she didn't buy it from other kashrut-observant Jews, the appliances would need to be rendered kosher ("kashered" in the common parlance). This involves (amongst other things) pouring boiling water over metal that isn't directly exposed to fire (e.g., a stainless steel sink) and running a blowtorch over an oven (using the self-clean cycle in a self-cleaning oven is also acceptable). Ceramic (e.g., porcelain or enamel-covered sink basins) cannot be made kosher, and ditto for surfaces that are plastic or rubber (such as the interior of dishwashers, and the racks in them).

bear in mind she also nearly disfriended me for purchasing some medical specimen human skulls on behalf of a friend (they were never for me to own). she claimed those people's soul would never reach heaven because their body was separated. i've never heard any religions say that--esp not of the Abrahamic variety.

Not true that it would prevent the souls from reaching heaven, but it is certainly considered disrespectful of the sanctity of the human body.

[AK84]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

I can't answer for how common the belief is, but yes, it exists. We were taught in nursing school that for some cultures (Orthodox Jews and Muslims were mentioned specifically, but it was suggested we ask everyone), any body parts, including bandages with large amounts of blood on them, should be packaged for return to the patient's family so they could be buried with the patient.

Off topic but............????????????????

[MsRobyn]

Originally Posted by AK84

Off topic but............????????????????

Yes. Some Orthodox Jews believe that the requirement to bury all body parts together extends to blood and tissues that might otherwise be lost. Michael Baden, who was the New York City medical examiner for quite a while, wrote about a special autopsy protocol for Orthodox Jews that basically came down to placing the decedent on a sheet that had been laid out on the table to catch any extra blood or whatever, and to put that sheet, gloves, and any other material that had blood on it into the body cavity for subsequent burial. Furthermore, some Orthodox Jews consider autopsy to be mutilation, so Dr. Baden had to be very diplomatic about approaching families.

Autopsies aside, I assume there is a protocol in place to handle body parts that are removed from a living patient.

[AK84]

So what happens if some poor guy gets his arm sliced off in an accident? And lives another 50 years.

[Telemark]

Originally Posted by AK84

So what happens if some poor guy gets his arm sliced off in an accident? And lives another 50 years.

The severed limb needs to be buried respectfully and according to tradition. It doesn't need to be buried with the rest of the body 50 years later.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot

For some highly religious Jews it's not a matter of cigarettes being kosher or not, but that smoking them on the sabbat meets their definition of a forbidden work activity.

It's not "work" activity per se. It's creative activity. You're creating fire when you light a cigarette. Not sure if you can light one off an already existing fire though.

In any case, quite a few rabbis have stated their opinions that cigarette smoking is anti-Halakhic due to the Halakha's prohibition on self-harm.

[DocCathode]

Re Treif Foods

When my friends come over, we often order Chinese food. I generally ask that they use plastic utensils (generally provided by the restaurant) and paper plates (which I provide) so I don't have to worry about kashering dishes. OTTOMH I can't think of a treif soda- and definitely know of none that's widely available in the US. I would be worried about the gum and candy in your pocket. Some gums and some candies are made with confectioners' glaze. As confectioners' glaze is a secretion of the lac beetle, it's not kosher.

Re Amputation

A moment's thought should make it clear that amputated body parts don't need to be buried with the rest of the person. If that were true, every Jewish man would have to have his foreskin stored somewhere so it could be buried with him.

[Anne Neville]

Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy

the husband ran an errand and brought me back a diet soda. the wife grabbed it and checked the label for a Kosher emblem, then told me since she was converting the rest of the way, they would not be allowing Treif (non-kosher) products into the new home.

is that actually a thing Jewish people do...that there's a law regarding even allowing non-kosher items to ever enter you home?

Some do. Some don't. We don't insist that every food item that comes into our house be certified kosher, though we do read ingredient lists to make sure there's no non-kosher meat in anything, and no dairy in anything we would use with meat.

if so, what about the families that lived in the home before (it's a mid-70s era home, so many people lived there before).

There is a process for making your appliances, counters, etc kosher if they have been used with non-kosher foods before. We go through this process every year when we clean our kitchen for Passover. It's a pain in the butt to do. Different Jews are going to have different opinions on exactly what is required for it, and the details may vary depending on the materials used in the kitchen.

Diet Coke and Diet Pepsi are kosher. They make kosher-for-Passover versions of both.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by WhyNot

I was never clear if this was required for non-fatal loss of body parts. I mean, if you have a foot amputated but you're then discharged to home alive, do you want your foot in a paper bag? What the hell are you going to do with it for the next 40 years?

Apologize for the smell and have awesome Hallowe'en costumes.

[Shinna Minna Ma]

We are observant Jews and our home is kosher. I seem to remember some time ago that I bought some food item without looking at the label to see if it was kosher; turns out it wasn't It wasn't that big a deal; I brought it back to the store the next day.

That being said, we do have a dog and we do use canned dog food. We don't use the entire can at once, so we keep it in the fridge, properly sealed. I don't know if there even is kosher canned dog food.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Ask and ye shall receive.

[md2000]

If I recall my letter to Doctor Laura trivia, should she also be checking out any less-than-middle-age females coming into the house before allowing the menfolk near them certain times of the month? Is she young enough that you should be asking her when she is unclean?

Or is that one of those Old Testament laws that has been ignored during the cherry-picking (sorry?) of what to obey?

[Shinna Minna Ma]

Originally Posted by md2000

If I recall my letter to Doctor Laura trivia, should she also be checking out any less-than-middle-age females coming into the house before allowing the menfolk near them certain times of the month? Is she young enough that you should be asking her when she is unclean?

Or is that one of those Old Testament laws that has been ignored during the cherry-picking (sorry?) of what to obey?

That has to do only with married women and their husbands.

[DocCathode]

md2000 That letter was debunked in this thread

[Really Not All That Bright]

Well, not really. It explains which bits of Leviticus should be followed and which shouldn't, but it doesn't explain why, which is all anyone really cares about.

[DocCathode]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

Well, not really. It explains which bits of Leviticus should be followed and which shouldn't, but it doesn't explain why, which is all anyone really cares about.

I thought it was pretty clear that Orthodox Jews want ALL of Leviticus followed. But

Until the Temple is rebuilt, we cannot offer sacrifice.

The torah says that the laws of the nation we live in must be obeyed. As slavery is illegal in the US, one cannot buy or sell people here.

There is no Sanhedrin. So nobody is presently qualified to hand down or carry out the death sentence for violating Jewish law.



As for laws on menstrual impurity, you'll find that many Jews still observe those.

ETA http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/...threadid=26093 Check it out for more details.

[Suburban Plankton]

It seems to me that this lady's problem was not really that the soda was or was not kosher, but that the soda was not certified kosher.

Is it a common practice for Jewish households to only allow foods that carry a Kosher Certification?

[cmkeller]

DocCathode:

OTTOMH I can't think of a treif soda- and definitely know of none that's widely available in the US.

Some grape sodas might be problematic, or "fruit punch" flavors which contain grape.

A moment's thought should make it clear that amputated body parts don't need to be buried with the rest of the person. If that were true, every Jewish man would have to have his foreskin stored somewhere so it could be buried with him.

This is true - it might also be noted that the foreskin is in fact buried right after the circumcision ceremony.

Shinna Minna Ma:

That being said, we do have a dog and we do use canned dog food. We don't use the entire can at once, so we keep it in the fridge, properly sealed. I don't know if there even is kosher canned dog food.

Pet food needs to be certified to be free of meat-milk mixture, and free of leaven on Passover, as those categories are forbidden in all manner of usage, not just consumption. It does not need to be kosher in other ways.

should she also be checking out any less-than-middle-age females coming into the house before allowing the menfolk near them certain times of the month?

Touching a menstruating woman transmits ritual impurity, but that's irrelevant in modern times, as all people in modern times have had some contact with ritual impurity, and there's no valid way to be cleansed of it in the absence of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. This aspect of it only affects consecrated objects. The only application of the menstrual impurity that still has application to daily life in modern times is not having sex with a menstruous woman, and that would only be relevant between husband and wife in the first place.

[cmkeller]

Suburban plankton:

It seems to me that this lady's problem was not really that the soda was or was not kosher, but that the soda was not certified kosher.

I don't think the OP even said that the soda in question wasn't certified kosher, just that the homeowner checked for said certification before allowing it in the house.

Is it a common practice for Jewish households to only allow foods that carry a Kosher Certification?

Well, there are certain foods that don't specifically require certification - most fresh fruits and vegetables, for example. The certification is simply the best way to know that packaged food is kosher. And it is common practice to not bring food that is not known to be kosher into one's house. As I said earlier, stopping it at the entry point is the easiest way to avoid problems.

[Chronos]

I seem to recall that Islam also had the debate about wholeness of corpses, at one point, but that a prominent philosopher quashed it by pointing out that since God created our bodies from tiny specks to begin with, surely He could re-create them just as well.

[Shinna Minna Ma]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

Is it a common practice for Jewish households to only allow foods that carry a Kosher Certification?

In the olden days when I was a kid - the 60s and 70s - there were items that were known to be kosher, but did not have a kosher certification on the label. One of the more well known items were Hershey bars, which didn't have a label certification until much later. Nowadays, because of the proliferation of ingredients which come from all over the world - I would not eat something that didn't have a certification that I trust. (And yes, there are certifying Kashrut agencies that are more trustworthy than others.)

[dontbesojumpy]

Originally Posted by Suburban Plankton

It seems to me that this lady's problem was not really that the soda was or was not kosher, but that the soda was not certified kosher.

Is it a common practice for Jewish households to only allow foods that carry a Kosher Certification?

for clarity, we found the "OU" symbol on the bottle after the conversation. her husband also clarified that "all coke products are kosher." it would appear most soft drinks in general are kosher.
nevertheless, she requested i never bring drinks with me when i come over any more.

what is odd (and a little off-putting to me) is that she requested a Starbuck's Mocha be brought back for her when the husband brought back a diet coke.

i asked if that was kosher and she didn't know.

now, i feel like i might be painting an ugly picture here. i love these people (they're practically my favorite humans ((i don't like humans))). but she really goes over the top about stuff like a tsunami of interest. i still have the utmost respect for her and her beliefs, but i also don't think i really need to be worried about gum or candy if there's no breech of doctrine.

but a great example is about how she went vegan a few years back. she hit it equally as hard, declaring them a vegan household and even making the dog eat vegan (that lasted approximately a millisecond before the vet was like "NO.")

right after becoming vegan to ^that degree, she bought a new toyota hybrid camery. that model's options didn't include leather seats, so she sent the new car back to the factory to have custom leather seats installed.

it's another thing i know better than to ask about, but it seems like a glaring contradiction to me. perhaps i am missing something (i miss a lot of things)...

i guess my point is these people aren't orthodox. i know she isn't strict about shabbot observance (they go places, drive, cook, etc) and the husband is philosophically interested but utterly ambivalent to the religious rigors.

so i feel like i have an answer: this is just a waaay over the top stricture. it's her house, so that's cool--whatever she wants.

btw, for clarity on the skulls comment, i think what she said was more close to

"these people have done themselves a great dis-service by allowing their body to be donated to science, and you are contributing by participating. by separating the head from their body, they have put a tremendous strain on their soul in its journey to the afterlife."

i don't know if that changes anything, but that's more closely verbatim the conversation.

[DocCathode]

Actually, with the way that's worded it sounds much more in line with tradition. Roughly, Jewish tradition teaches that the separation of the soul from the body is a difficult thing. If the body is destroyed or damaged post mortem accidentally, G-d is believed to step in and spare the soul that trauma. But if some one specifies that they be cremated or donated to science, G-d sits back and lets the soul experience the trauma. So, it isn't that the soul can't reach heaven. It's just that the journey will have a few very unpleasant stops.

[dontbesojumpy]

Originally Posted by DocCathode

Actually, with the way that's worded it sounds much more in line with tradition. Roughly, Jewish tradition teaches that the separation of the soul from the body is a difficult thing. If the body is destroyed or damaged post mortem accidentally, G-d is believed to step in and spare the soul that trauma. But if some one specifies that they be cremated or donated to science, G-d sits back and lets the soul experience the trauma. So, it isn't that the soul can't reach heaven. It's just that the journey will have a few very unpleasant stops.

but what if the people weren't jewish?

typically, a lot of medical specimen are from india or china.

and i really appreciate your input and perspective and clarity...
but...
it doesn't make sense to me. not that i am areligous (father was a Protestant minister as stated before...i am now a Deist)...but i still can't understand the application of strictly jewish ideals to any dead body any place at all.

edit; got sidetracked and forgot my point:

part of why it doesn't make sense to me is where does the soul go? if your head is missing, does your soul have to like, go find it? i am just not sure i follow. not that i really believe in any traditional ideas of heaven--but i thought the whole point of the afterlife was transcendental to the human form. so i guess i don't understand the concept of a soul having to go some other place because the body was parted out. where would it have to go?

[DocCathode]

First, Judaism is founded on the basic idea 'This religion is the one true one'. So it follows that whatever decision the person made while alive, their soul is faced with the G-d of Abraham now.

Second, Jewish law and tradition say that a corpse must be treated with respect. It doesn't matter what culture or tradition the person came from. Respect in this case is defined very carefully. It doesn't matter if the person came from a culture that practiced sky burials. Judaism says you wash the body ( a whole ritual in itself) and bury it.

ETA Cuz I just saw your edit

The idea is that after death, the soul slowly pulls away from the body. If the body is damaged (by dissection or cremation for example) that pulling away is violent and painful. It's roughly like the difference between just getting out of a car and getting hit in the face with an airbag, spilling hot coffee on yourself, and hitting your head on the frame. Both ways get you out of the car but one is much more pleasant.