Why are Jews still hated so much around the world outside of the U.S.?

[SciFiSam]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

Ri-i-i-i-i-ight!
(Separate view of the same report.)

And, while anecdotes are not the same as data, this story suggests that you are very wrong.

Now, if you want to argue that UK anti-semitism parallels US anti-semitism, for the most part, with it being demonstrated more by a general lack of understanding flavored by disdain with a number of widely held misconceptions about tradition, wealth, or "media control," that it is most often displayed by juveniles who don't have too much free time, and that it is unlikely to result in restrictive laws, ghettoes, or pogroms in the next two years, I would accept that you are probably right. However, nothing in the linked articles indicates that the anti-semitism displayed originated among Muslim immigrants and simply denying reality hardly makes your point.

Well, I would argue exactly what you're arguing, about anti-semitism in the UK generally being about lack of understanding, etc.

However, I'd also add that most people in the UK simply don't think about Judaism enough to be anti it. The current scapegoat is Muslims (and, as always, the working class), and Jewish people are pretty much ignored.

BTW, you said 'nothing in the linked articles indicates that the anti-semitism displayed originated among Muslim immigrants and simply denying reality hardly makes your point.'

The Jewish school in that article was in Manchester; Manchester has a high number of Muslim residents, especially in its young people. In the 2001 census, 43% of the residents near the Jewish school in Manchester described themselves as Muslim. Not sure this link will work - from the directgov site. It also gives the stats for other religions.

Even if you made the reality-denying assumption that the Muslims in that area were evenly distributed across the ages, that means there are more Muslims near that school than any other religion. So yes, actually, there are fairly good odds that the kids harrassing the Jewish schoolkids are Muslim.

Many Muslim Brits are only a generation or two from not being British, and, while I definitely do not think this means they're not British (they are British), it does mean they're growing up in a somewhat different culture to white CofE or Catholic Brits who mostly don't care about religion, or to other minorities. I mean, if I moved to India and raised my kids there, they'd be raised in a somewhat different culture to other Indians too.

Basically, the small increase in anti-semitism in Britain could be entirely down to the increase in the number of Muslims, although that's not because because all Muslims are born hating Jews or anything ridiculous like that. Thanks to Israel and Palestine, there are fairly concrete reasons for strife between Muslims and Jews as well as good old-fashioned prejudice - and IME, immigrants and ex-pats tend to not only pack their prejudices with them but give them their own seat on the plane. This is very true of Brits abroad, btw; it's a human thing, not tied to any religion or ethnicity.

Plus, like I said, Muslims are the current scapegoat in the UK; it's hardly surprising if this, in turn, results in more attacks by a tiny number of Muslims on the old enemy, Jews, who are a visible minority (when it comes to schools or synagogues or the significant Hassidic communities in places like London) and an easy target. And one person making 30 attacks counts as much in the stats as 30 people making 30 attacks.

[LonesomePolecat]

Perhaps this is one reason.

Perhaps this is another.

This might be yet another reason.

[NAF1138]

Originally Posted by LonesomePolecat

Perhaps this is one reason.

Perhaps this is another.

This might be yet another reason.

I'm not Israelie, I'm not even particularly pro-Israel. I am Jewish. What do those links have to do with me and why it's okay to hate me without having met me because of my ethnic heritage ?

[FinnAgain]

Originally Posted by LonesomePolecat

Perhaps this is one reason.

Perhaps this is another.

This might be yet another reason.

No, those are the fallacies of composition and division, no different from saying that someone hates blacks because blacks are disproportionately represented in the crime statistics. All you've essentially said that is some people are racist against Jews because they use racist thought patterns.

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by LonesomePolecat

Perhaps this is one reason.
[/url]

I only looked at the first one but damn, she is hot. That reaffirms my faith in the Jewish people. I have no idea what she was saying because I don't speak Hebrew and subtitles aren't my thing but she sounds like she knows what she is talking about with that monkey. I thought Natalie Portman was the best example of a nice Jewish girl but I guess not.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by SciFiSam

BTW, you said 'nothing in the linked articles indicates that the anti-semitism displayed originated among Muslim immigrants and simply denying reality hardly makes your point.'

The Jewish school in that article was in Manchester; Manchester has a high number of Muslim residents, especially in its young people. In the 2001 census, 43% of the residents near the Jewish school in Manchester described themselves as Muslim.
. . .

Even if you made the reality-denying assumption that the Muslims in that area were evenly distributed across the ages, that means there are more Muslims near that school than any other religion. So yes, actually, there are fairly good odds that the kids harrassing the Jewish schoolkids are Muslim.

And yet, nothing in the article actually mentioned that the kids were anything more than local yobs. I am not claiming that they could not have been Mid-East immigrants. However, the story does not make that point and I can certainly recall incidents of ethnic conflict carried out by white kids in Detroit long after it had become a 70% or more black city.

I do not deny the possibility that the kids were Muslim, but it seems odd that the author of the story would have suppressed that fact.

Originally Posted by LonesomePolecat

Perhaps this is one reason.

Perhaps this is another.

This might be yet another reason.

Wait a minute. You think that there is a world-wide hatred for Jews because, after 2,000 years of Christian-on-Jewish persecution, a few Jews in Israel, in events that hardly make the international news, engage in the same sort of mockery and hooliganism that continues to be a characteristic of some number of Christians?

Odd belief, that.

[SciFiSam]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

And yet, nothing in the article actually mentioned that the kids were anything more than local yobs. I am not claiming that they could not have been Mid-East immigrants. However, the story does not make that point and I can certainly recall incidents of ethnic conflict carried out by white kids in Detroit long after it had become a 70% or more black city.

I do not deny the possibility that the kids were Muslim, but it seems odd that the author of the story would have suppressed that fact.

Wait a minute. You think that there is a world-wide hatred for Jews because, after 2,000 years of Christian-on-Jewish persecution, a few Jews in Israel, in events that hardly make the international news, engage in the same sort of mockery and hooliganism that continues to be a characteristic of some number of Christians?

Odd belief, that.

It certainly could have been white kids, but based on the local demographics, it just would be much more likely to be kids from muslim families (not immigrants - not sure where you get that from - and it's very unlikely their families are from the middle east - more likely pakistan in that area). The statistics for these things are a little misleading, in some ways; direct gov says my area is only 36% muslim, but also that all the secondary schools are over 90% muslim, which fits with my experience of these schools.

[Lazlo Hapsburg]

Originally Posted by RickJay

They're just an easy target; a small but famous group that's assertively insular and resistant to assimilation, has been forced to live in many places, and has been picked on by the world's two major religious groups.

Who else do you pick on, really? There aren't many Zoroastrians around. You've got other small religious groups but they don't have the geographic spread or historical bona fides.

There is much truth in this.

The orthodox Jews dress in a funny way and engage in practices that put them in the public eye - such as walking to Temple every Saturday. They are easy to see every Saturday. But there are other reasons and at least one of them is very key. Unfortunately, I'm not certain what it is. But I know something about how it develops. Here are some stories about some young boys that I grew up with and who somehow had many anti-Jewish things to say when they were just 8 or 9 years old.


The boys I grew up with lived in an area with a high percentage of Jews in its population and although they didn't know hardly anything about Jews, they were always quick with a stupid joke or hurtful remark. Here are some examples.

One kid who was a real jerk was a renowned bully. His name was Glenn. He would enjoy beating up on kids two years younger than him and he had plenty to choose from because at age 11, we were in a class with him because he had been put back twice and so he was aged 13 and must have been very angry at having to be in a class with kids who were two years younger than him and everybody knew he was a dummy who had to be put back two different times.

Glenn would always delight in finding a Jewish kid and telling them that he had just bought something that the seller wanted to sell for $5 but he "Jewed them down" to $3. He would use the word "Jew" as a verb in several ways.

He would often refer to Moses and Matzah balls and knew just enough about both of them to make insulting statements. For example, if the kids were playing baseball and one kid had trouble hitting the ball, he would say something stupid like, "Just pretend it's a Matzah ball and you'll be able to hit it a lot easier."

Glenn also had jokes and riddles, such as: "Jew are OK in their place. You know where that is? In the ovens."

He had no friends for obvious reasons. Even other kids who were clearly anti-Semetic wanted nothing to do with him. When they made arrangements to go to a dance, he was never included.

I guess it must be obvious that he never even came close to getting into any college or university and after we all graduated from High School, no one ever saw him again.

Glenn was a real fool. The only thing he could do well was beat up and bully kids who were two years his junior.

The one thing he loved above all others was football. I'd like to tell you a story that still gives me a chuckle whenever I think of it. It was wonderful.

It was the final year of high school and we had a pretty decent boys senior football team. The only position the coach would let Glenn play was Flanker and there was only one play where he got to touch the ball and that was one called the "Flea Flicker". It is a kind of trick play where the quarterback gets the ball and hands it or tosses it to the flanker who then begins to run to fool the defense and then tosses it back to the quarterback who then passes it. When it is done correctly, the defense all get fooled into thinking it is a running play when in fact, it becomes a passing play.

Well, it was late in the final quarter and the score was tied and all of a sudden, Glen became very excited and very agitated and started to repeat the phrase in the huddle, "Flea Flicker!" "Flea Flicker!" "Flea Flicker!"

Well, for some reason, the quarterback, (who was Jewish), assented and called that play and this was Glenn's big chance for glory. Naturally, he fumbled the ball and a defender picked it up and ran it in for a touchdown. Glen was completely hapless and unable to do anything to stop him. He didn't even try. Remember the scene from The Godfather when they try to assassinate Marlon Brando and his idiot son just fumbles with his gun and drops it? Well, it was like that. It was just about the most humiliating thing possible that anyone who claims to love football could possible have happen to themselves. The rest of the team all laughed at him and it was a beautiful moment that we all enjoyed. Losing the game was no big tragedy because there were no playoffs or anything. It was the last game of the season - win or lose. So it didn't really matter.

But everybody forever remembered Glenn as the hapless idiot who cost us the game and it was a great moment for the laws of Karma to pay him back for all his stupid misdeeds. The people who were in charge of editing the yearbook (momst of whom were Jewish) took great delight in assigning him the nickname of "Butterfingers".

He didn't show his face for several days after the yearbook was published.

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally Posted by NAF1138

I'm not Israelie, I'm not even particularly pro-Israel. I am Jewish. What do those links have to do with me and why it's okay to hate me without having met me because of my ethnic heritage ?

(shrug) Never said it was okay to hate you just because you're a Jew. I merely wanted to point out that there are many Jews who are every bit as prejudiced and hateful as they accuse Christians of being.

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

Wait a minute. You think that there is a world-wide hatred for Jews because, after 2,000 years of Christian-on-Jewish persecution, a few Jews in Israel, in events that hardly make the international news, engage in the same sort of mockery and hooliganism that continues to be a characteristic of some number of Christians?

Odd belief, that.

Careful with that straw man, it might be a fire hazard.

Animosity between Christians and Jews was quite mutual, and the Jews are not quite the totally innocent victims they claim to be. Anyone interested in the subject ought to read Benjamin Ginsberg's The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State. His argument in a nutshell is that much of the hostility towards Jews comes from their centuries-long association with repressive states, often imposed by conquerors (e.g. Muslim states imposed on Spanish Christians) and with communism. It isn't a perfect book--what book is?--but it certainly gives a much more nuanced view of the subject than the simple-minded "Christians hate Jews because they're jealous" theory that seems to be pretty popular on this thread.

[hibernicus]

I find the thread title pretty offensive. There is a reasonable question to ask: "Why do people still hate Jews?" and following on from that: "what can be done to reduce the amount of anti-Semitism in the world?"

But instead the OP chose to phrase the question in a way that sneakily says "we Americans are so enlightened, so immune from prejudice and bigotry, it's hard for us with our pure minds to comprehend the ignorance and hate in which everyone else is sadly mired."

Reading the question phrased in this way, far from making me want to confront the issue of anti-Semitism and attitudes to Jews, my first reaction was a wish to defend my own country against what I perceive as a nasty, holier-than-thou accusation.

So, you know what? I don't think it's true that Irish people hate Jews. That's just based on my own experience of living in Ireland my whole life, and Jew-hating just not being "a thing". It just wasn't on my radar in the Ireland of the 1980s and 1990s. I'm sure there are lots of people harbouring anti-Semitic opinions and prejudices of one kind or another, mainly dating back to Catholic anti-Semitism of the "Christ-killers" variety (although I never hear such opinions voiced, and would be quite surprised); on the other hand we have a fine record of Jewish elected representatives (including our current Minister for Justice), which seems to rule out a very widespread antipathy to Jews.

So that's my anecdotal, no-doubt biased and not very scientific contribution to the discussion. Just wanted to get that off my chest.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by LonesomePolecat

Perhaps this is one reason.

Wait, people hate Jews because hot bikini-clad Jewish babes crucify toy monkeys?!?

Makes sense to me.

Oh wait, it totally doesn't.

Isn't this the same sort of thinking that some Muslim extremists use - that some asshole posting an offensive Youtube clip slandering Mohammed "justifies" murdering a US Ambassador, rioting, etc.?

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by hibernicus

I find the thread title pretty offensive. There is a reasonable question to ask: "Why do people still hate Jews?" and following on from that: "what can be done to reduce the amount of anti-Semitism in the world?"

But instead the OP chose to phrase the question in a way that sneakily says "we Americans are so enlightened, so immune from prejudice and bigotry, it's hard for us with our pure minds to comprehend the ignorance and hate in which everyone else is sadly mired.

I am the OP and I wrote it that way for a reason. There is nothing hinting about enlightenment in the OP or at least none was intended. I can rephrase it another way if it will make you feel better. Americans have serious problems accepting lots of different minority groups into the mainstream. Jews don't tend to be among those as evidenced by the mass migration of Jews to the U.S., their influence in lots of different fields, and U.S. support for Israel. Other countries scattered all over the world still single out Jews as a minority group to target. Why is there such a difference in perception and reactions Jews get in the U.S. as opposed to other countries?

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Oh wait, it totally doesn't.

Isn't this the same sort of thinking that some Muslim extremists use - that some asshole posting an offensive Youtube clip slandering Mohammed "justifies" murdering a US Ambassador, rioting, etc.?

No, it's not. It's simply an example of Jewish hostility to Christians. A minority isn't necessarily in the right merely because it's a minority.

[Simple Linctus]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

I am the OP and I wrote it that way for a reason. There is nothing hinting about enlightenment in the OP or at least none was intended. I can rephrase it another way if it will make you feel better. Americans have serious problems accepting lots of different minority groups into the mainstream. Jews don't tend to be among those as evidenced by the mass migration of Jews to the U.S., their influence in lots of different fields, and U.S. support for Israel. Other countries scattered all over the world still single out Jews as a minority group to target. Why is there such a difference in perception and reactions Jews get in the U.S. as opposed to other countries?

Again, 90% of it is one of the following:

*Catholicism
*Islam
*Orthodox Christianity

Back in the day, a lot higher % would have been the prodestants as well, starting with Luther himself. But now that is less relevant as the countries where it was relevant more or less burnt out their anti semitism during an incident in the 30s and 40s.

Trace the history of those three religions in the countries in which you find the anti semitic incidents and especially how they were used by local rabble rousers and so on and you find the answer.

The attitude of some posters in this thread basically betrays an americo-centric way of looking at the world, where jews are well represented in popular culture and thus thought about more often. Most countries the normal person never think about jews and would have no reason to care one way or the other.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by LonesomePolecat

No, it's not. It's simply an example of Jewish hostility to Christians. A minority isn't necessarily in the right merely because it's a minority.

Some wacky clip of unknown provinence of a bikini babe crucifying a toy monkey is not an example of anything. Other than that someone out there had the bad taste to produce it.

The thinking that somehow "Jews" can be tagged with this is exactly the same thinking as that "Americans" can be tagged with dissing the Prophet because of that lame Muslim-hating clip posted on Youtube.

Except your clip is, one must admit, somewhat more surreal. I mean seriously, it's a bikini babe crucifying a toy monkey. Not exactly your standard children's show. Who was the intended audience one wonders?

[Noone Special]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Some wacky clip of unknown provinence of a bikini babe crucifying a toy monkey is not an example of anything. Other than that someone out there had the bad taste to produce it.

The thinking that somehow "Jews" can be tagged with this is exactly the same thinking as that "Americans" can be tagged with dissing the Prophet because of that lame Muslim-hating clip posted on Youtube.

Except your clip is, one must admit, somewhat more surreal. I mean seriously, it's a bikini babe crucifying a toy monkey. Not exactly your standard children's show. Who was the intended audience one wonders?

Ah, people? It's a satirical show. Think "The Onion" in TV format, or an off-color-off-the-wall version of South Park, OK?

http://www.metafilter.com/110331/Flattire-or-Whamsy
http://my.firedoglake.com/edwardtell...-a-mock-jesus/

[Malthus]

Heh, some googling determines that the clip is a purposfully offensive parody, making fun from an extreme left-wing stance of the alleged racism of Israeli society and of its state educational TV.

http://my.firedoglake.com/edwardteller/tag/television/

It’s a parody of some of the shows on Israeli state Educational TV, especially in the ’60s and ’70s (some of the sketches are even in black and white, for added effect). The messages are unashamedly racist (against Arabs, Mizrahim, Christians, etc.), chauvinist and violent, holding up a mirror to Israeli society as it were (albeit from a safe distance – placing such attitudes somewhere in the past). The show’s creator describes its political orientation as “socialist-pacifist”.

The programme is produced and broadcast by the privately-owned Bip channel, not state-run Educational TV. The Ed TV symbol, music and “feel” is part of the programme’s shtick – voice of the brainwashing, racist, consumerist, sexist (hence the girl in the bikini), warmongering establishment. Poor taste, blood, and provocations of all kinds are also part of the shtick.

Here’s an interview (Hebrew) with the programme’s creator –http://www.mouse.co.il/CM.articles_i...09,18794,.aspx – who says he was inspired by Team America and Southpark.

In short, LonesomePolecat, you have been had. You have mistaken parody for reality, along the lines of the time the Chinese Government got into a huff over The Onion.

Edit: Ninja'd by Noone Special. D'oh.

[Terr]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Except your clip is, one must admit, somewhat more surreal. I mean seriously, it's a bikini babe crucifying a toy monkey. Not exactly your standard children's show. Who was the intended audience one wonders?

AFAIU, it was a private production on an obscure private cable channel that was supposed to be a satire/parody of Israeli children shows but with some deliberately offensive content. The creator of the show describes himself as "pacifist socialist" and from his writings is an extreme leftist. Just shows you how stupid some "pacifist socialists" can be.

See his article at http://www.mouse.co.il/CM.articles_i...09,18794,.aspx - although it is in Hebrew. See if someone can translate it for you.

In the first show, for example, the gorilla "explained" that US invaded Iraq because George Bush and all Americans drink oil and Iraqi children blood.

[Malthus]

Anyway, I take back what I said above about this being the equivalent of some Muslims upset over that youtube clip dissing the Prophet.

It is actually far sillier than that ...

[rogerbox]

It's amazing, Satire has existed for how many centuries, and the stupids always get offended by it as if the Satirist is actually promoting the ideals they are parodying. Sigh.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by rogerbox

It's amazing, Satire has existed for how many centuries, and the stupids always get offended by it as if the Satirist is actually promoting the ideals they are parodying. Sigh.

I'm still angry over that whole Jonathan Swift baby-eating thing.

[treis]

Originally Posted by Jackmannii

Really? It's the first time I've seen this meme.

From time to time there are international surveys in the tourism industry asking which countries produce the most obnoxious travelers, and I don't recall seeing Israelis mentioned. For instance, here's a recent Expedia survey in which the French, Indians and Chinese held down the bottom three spots.

More on disliked nationalities.

Israelis don't seem to make the radar screen based on my own superficial Google survey of tourism surveys. So if anti-Semitism around the world is mainly being driven by stinky Israeli tourists, it's news to me.

It depends on who you ask. The path for a lot of Israelis is army -> travel -> college. To the point where they are the 2nd or 3rd most common nationality for travelers in this bracket. These are the travelers that have a very bad reputation amongst service providers and fellow travelers. I'm guessing Expedia surveyed higher end lodgings, and didn't ask the guy with $5 rooms in Goa.

I doubt much antisemitism is tied to them, but they are very bad ambassadors for their country.

[Damuri Ajashi]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

OK. Curious about the way the question was phrased, I went looking for "live sushi" and found some. Most of it appears to be fish that has been killed during the meal preparation, with the bodies continuing to spasm in post-death neural activities as the meal begins.

I am not going to pretend to be a Talmudic scholar rendering a judgment on this activity. My guess would be that as long as the animal is actually killed, (with as little pain as possible), before it was eaten, it would not violate Ever Min HaChay, but that if the diners began to carve into the animal before its death, it would be a violation.

I've had sushi where they snip the fish's nervous system at the base of the skull and then carve and eat the sushi while it is still alive.

[Untoward_Parable]

It seems to me that religious groups that explicitly isolate themselves from their communities tend to run into this problem right or not. In order to be a real Jew you have to be born to a Jewish woman. Other religions actively recruit more members which allows them to spread more quickly and gain more connections to the community that benefits their level of acceptance. Because of the difficulty Jews have had succeeding in a gentile economy proportional to their talents they have a history that promotes businesses that are mostly Jewish and recruit from within their isolated community. Again fairly or not this fosters distrust between them and the larger society.

[Shagnasty]

Originally Posted by Untoward_Parable

It seems to me that religious groups that explicitly isolate themselves from their communities tend to run into this problem right or not. In order to be a real Jew you have to be born to a Jewish woman. Other religions actively recruit more members which allows them to spread more quickly and gain more connections to the community that benefits their level of acceptance. Because of the difficulty Jews have had succeeding in a gentile economy proportional to their talents they have a history that promotes businesses that are mostly Jewish and recruit from within their isolated community. Again fairly or not this fosters distrust between them and the larger society.

I am not sure that is a defining factor. See the Amish and you don't get much more isolating than they are. We have seen some comical Amish hate threads in the early days of the board based on teenage behavior during the rumspringa but I don't think many people in the U.S. hate or even dislike the Amish either. The number of Amish people in the U.S. (about 250,000) is higher than the population of Jews in the vast majority of the countries in the world.

[rogerbox]

I've heard some fairly anti-Amish things said by non-Amish people who live in Amish country. They definitely don't have the "don't know any of them, but I hate them for X reason!" thing that Jews do, though.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by LonesomePolecat

Careful with that straw man, it might be a fire hazard.

Animosity between Christians and Jews was quite mutual, and the Jews are not quite the totally innocent victims they claim to be. Anyone interested in the subject ought to read Benjamin Ginsberg's The Fatal Embrace: Jews and the State. His argument in a nutshell is that much of the hostility towards Jews comes from their centuries-long association with repressive states, often imposed by conquerors (e.g. Muslim states imposed on Spanish Christians) and with communism. It isn't a perfect book--what book is?--but it certainly gives a much more nuanced view of the subject than the simple-minded "Christians hate Jews because they're jealous" theory that seems to be pretty popular on this thread.

There was no straw man. You offered, with no explanation, (even of the parody that you appear to have misunderstood), three videos of people identified as Jews behaving badly toward Christians.

My comment directly addressed your silly attempt to equate anti-semitism for the last couple of millennia with some bad behavior by a few people.

As to Ginsberg's thesis as presented, it is silly.* Jews have been routinely persecuted by Christians from back in the day when both groups were being persecuted by Romans and the notion that any antipathy was based on a belief by Christians that Jews were part of centuries-long associations with repressive states is risible. The antipathy came first and the "association" was tacked on, later. (That is why so many Europeans and North Americans scorn Jews simultaneously for being bankers and communists.)

Does the bad blood go back to the earliest days of Christianity? Yes. Have there been occasions when Jews attacked Christianity? Yes. Is current anti-semitism rooted in any genuine association of Jews with Islam and communism. Nope. Only in the fevered imaginations of people who went looking for purported reasons to hate Jews.

= = =

* My memory of his book is that it only really addressed fairly recent history, mentioning some Renaissance events and then getting serious in the nineteenth century. It also focused not on general anti-semitism, so much as what has happened to Jewish power brokers when their patrons no longer had need of their services. Those events may have been used by anti-semites as one arrow in their quiver of hatred for Jews, but it hardly explains the long history of European anti-semitism any more than your own straw man claim that there is a strong theme that anti-semites are just jealous running through this thread.

[Untoward_Parable]

Originally Posted by Shagnasty

I am not sure that is a defining factor. See the Amish and you don't get much more isolating than they are. We have seen some comical Amish hate threads in the early days of the board based on teenage behavior during the rumspringa but I don't think many people in the U.S. hate or even dislike the Amish either. The number of Amish people in the U.S. (about 250,000) is higher than the population of Jews in the vast majority of the countries in the world.

As the other poster said they are even more isolated so you don't have the perception that they're deviously controlling economics that you do with the Jewish, (I don't think Jews do anymore than any other rich people though I'd be hesitant to invest my family's future on the basis of anticipated advancement in a Jewish populated company)

They also have a much longer history with the other judeochristain groups that has not gone favorably for them again because they don't proselytize and even refuse full membership to people that seek them out. They're not having enough kids to spread that way alone and sadly for them both the Russians and Germans set them back several generations in ww2 with their genocides.

I generally get along with Jews more than most people just based on their humor and intellectualism. I still think their religion is fairly silly though not more than any other. If you're going to succeed as a group the bigotry of the culture you live in will unfortunately make life fairly difficult for you.

In the united states I think they're doing just fine, in Europe and the middle east things are a lot stickier obviously.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by treis

It depends on who you ask. The path for a lot of Israelis is army -> travel -> college. To the point where they are the 2nd or 3rd most common nationality for travelers in this bracket. These are the travelers that have a very bad reputation amongst service providers and fellow travelers. I'm guessing Expedia surveyed higher end lodgings, and didn't ask the guy with $5 rooms in Goa.

I doubt much antisemitism is tied to them, but they are very bad ambassadors for their country.

I dunno, can it really be true that so high a proportion of backpacking kids are Israeli? Israel is really a tiny country.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi

I've had sushi where they snip the fish's nervous system at the base of the skull and then carve and eat the sushi while it is still alive.

That squigs me out, and I'm not kosher.

More seriously, I have no idea why not eating live animals was so significant to the redactors of the Bible, that it should be made one of the basic Noahide laws right up there with not murdering.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Untoward_Parable

As the other poster said they are even more isolated so you don't have the perception that they're deviously controlling economics that you do with the Jewish, (I don't think Jews do anymore than any other rich people though I'd be hesitant to invest my family's future on the basis of anticipated advancement in a Jewish populated company)

Huh? Should Jews hesitate to invest their family future in a "Christian populated" company?

They also have a much longer history with the other judeochristain groups that has not gone favorably for them again because they don't proselytize and even refuse full membership to people that seek them out. They're not having enough kids to spread that way alone and sadly for them both the Russians and Germans set them back several generations in ww2 with their genocides.

Jews don't "refuse full membership" to converts. There are no grades of Judaism. You are either a Jew or not. Some born Jews treat converted Jews as inferior. They are known colloquially as "assholes". It is not part of the religion and is most definitely not socially acceptable to be an asshole like that, any more than (say) it is acceptable for most Christian congregations to treat Black fellow-Christians as second-class -- even though some individuals may.

It is true that Judaism does not encourage people to convert and does not seek out converts. But once you do convert, you are as much a Jew as someone who could trace their family back to Moses.

[treis]

Originally Posted by Malthus

I dunno, can it really be true that so high a proportion of backpacking kids are Israeli? Israel is really a tiny country.

Yes. From what I gather, every Israeli that wants to go to college has a gap between the end of their military service and the time they start college. It seems that every one of them take that time to travel to India. If you go to some of the major, more laidback/meditative, destinations in India you will see signs in the tourist areas written in Hebrew.

It was surprising to me too.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by treis

Yes. From what I gather, every Israeli that wants to go to college has a gap between the end of their military service and the time they start college. It seems that every one of them take that time to travel to India. If you go to some of the major, more laidback/meditative, destinations in India you will see signs in the tourist areas written in Hebrew.

It was surprising to me too.

Well, I learn something new every day. Mind you it has been two decades since I travelled about in that manner.

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

There was no straw man. You offered, with no explanation, (even of the parody that you appear to have misunderstood), three videos of people identified as Jews behaving badly toward Christians.

My comment directly addressed your silly attempt to equate anti-semitism for the last couple of millennia with some bad behavior by a few people.

As to Ginsberg's thesis as presented, it is silly.* Jews have been routinely persecuted by Christians from back in the day when both groups were being persecuted by Romans and the notion that any antipathy was based on a belief by Christians that Jews were part of centuries-long associations with repressive states is risible. The antipathy came first and the "association" was tacked on, later. (That is why so many Europeans and North Americans scorn Jews simultaneously for being bankers and communists.)

Does the bad blood go back to the earliest days of Christianity? Yes. Have there been occasions when Jews attacked Christianity? Yes. Is current anti-semitism rooted in any genuine association of Jews with Islam and communism. Nope. Only in the fevered imaginations of people who went looking for purported reasons to hate Jews.

= = =

* My memory of his book is that it only really addressed fairly recent history, mentioning some Renaissance events and then getting serious in the nineteenth century. It also focused not on general anti-semitism, so much as what has happened to Jewish power brokers when their patrons no longer had need of their services. Those events may have been used by anti-semites as one arrow in their quiver of hatred for Jews, but it hardly explains the long history of European anti-semitism any more than your own straw man claim that there is a strong theme that anti-semites are just jealous running through this thread.

Ptooey. I was not relying solely on the vids to document Jewish animosity towards Christians. Those were only examples. And, yes, Ginsberg's book focuses mostly on relatively recent history, but it's a pattern that's repeated itself across millennia. Dismissing Ginsberg's thesis as silly is just a desperate attempt to avoid facing a complicated, messy unpleasant reality about Christian-Jewish relations that you just don't want to face. The notion that Jews have done little or nothing to antagonize gentiles both Christian and non-Christian in almost two thousand years is absurd.

If you really think there's no connection between Jews and communism, read Yuri Slezkine's The Jewish Century.

[LonesomePolecat]

Originally Posted by Malthus

In short, LonesomePolecat, you have been had. You have mistaken parody for reality, along the lines of the time the Chinese Government got into a huff over The Onion

Argh. Okay, so the tits distracted me. Hell, I’d watched the video two times before I even noticed the damn monkey. Seeing as others on the thread fell for the gag too, I’m not as embarrassed about it as some might like, and anyway there’s still those other two vids.

In any case, I’m immensely skeptical that the Christians are solely responsible for bad relations with the Jews, seeing as animosity towards the Jews goes back to the Jewish rebellions against the pre-Christian Roman empire. The book listed above as well as Yuri Slezkine’s definitely shows that the relationship between Christians and Jews isn’t nearly as simple as many might wish. Give it a read. You’ll definitely get more insight from the books than from this thread.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by LonesomePolecat

Argh. Okay, so the tits distracted me. Hell, I’d watched the video two times before I even noticed the damn monkey.

Hey, you get a pass from me for that. The babe was a looker, no doubt.

Seeing as others on the thread fell for the gag too, I’m not as embarrassed about it as some might like, and anyway there’s still those other two vids.

Meh not impressed. Even if genuine (and given that the first was not I have some doubts), some youtube videos of Jews acting like assholes isn't proof of, well, anything. No-one denies that some Jews can be assholes.

What is sad is that these examples are so very petty even assuming they were true. I mean really, some drunk teens acting abusively? That's not much better than mistaking a parody for reality, proof-wise.

In any case, I’m immensely skeptical that the Christians are solely responsible for bad relations with the Jews, seeing as animosity towards the Jews goes back to the Jewish rebellions against the pre-Christian Roman empire. The book listed above as well as Yuri Slezkine’s definitely shows that the relationship between Christians and Jews isn’t nearly as simple as many might wish. Give it a read. You’ll definitely get more insight from the books than from this thread.

The same can be said of any historical circumstance. In any case where a majority population acts badly towards a minority, there is going to be *some* sort of background. In this case there is not far to seek as to why some Christians would (as a collective) dislike Jews (as a group): Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism and part of its very theology is that Christianity is supposed to be the next step. That Jews don't take that step and become Christians was, historically, considered a standing rebuke, at best a stubborn persistance in error and at worst a deliberately perverse rejection of the Christian creed. That, combined with some unfortunate language in the Gospels drafted at a time when Christianity and Judaism competed directly, and combined with attitudes common at all times towards minorities (and particularly evident in Middle Ages/Reformation Europe) is enough to explain Christian attitudes towards Jews. There is no need to search elsewhere, because even if all Jews everywhere were blameless as fluffy kittens (which no-one alleges), it would probably have made no difference.

Indeed, as one would expect with any people exposed to considerable persecution, no doubt to outsiders Jews would appear clannish, unwelcoming, and sly. In Russia Jews were active in all sorts of revolutionary movements (not just Communism, but also Zionism, Anarchism, etc.). Can there be any real wonder why, when the *official* stance of the Russian Imperial Government of the Tsars was to repress Jews in every way possible and occasionally to organize *official* pogroms by Cossaks, in which Russian soldiers were encouraged to loot, rape and murder their own Jewish citizens? Joining a revolutionary movement, or emigrating, would be expected reactions to anyone with spirit to that sort of abuse.

What you sound, is defensive. There is no reason to be. Did "Christians" on occasion act abusively towards Jews? Absolutely. Was this "justified"? No. Are majorities acting abusively towards minorities common in history? Of course.

Perhaps what makes the Jews unusual is not that they were persecuted, but that they continued to exist despite said persecution.

[Damuri Ajashi]

Originally Posted by rogerbox

I've heard some fairly anti-Amish things said by non-Amish people who live in Amish country. They definitely don't have the "don't know any of them, but I hate them for X reason!" thing that Jews do, though.

So the Jews have hit some sweet spot where they are unknown enough for people to hate them and well known enough for that hatred to be everywhere in the world?

Originally Posted by Malthus

That squigs me out, and I'm not kosher.

More seriously, I have no idea why not eating live animals was so significant to the redactors of the Bible, that it should be made one of the basic Noahide laws right up there with not murdering.

Perhaps it was seen as barbaric to eat something while it was still alive like lions do to the wildebeast. They might have felt differently if they knew the thing being eaten alive had its spinal cord severed so they wouldn't feel anything. Or maybe thats still a teensy bit barbaric.

Originally Posted by treis

Yes. From what I gather, every Israeli that wants to go to college has a gap between the end of their military service and the time they start college. It seems that every one of them take that time to travel to India. If you go to some of the major, more laidback/meditative, destinations in India you will see signs in the tourist areas written in Hebrew.

It was surprising to me too.

Well that's what Jesus did, I guess these kids all want to be Christians and eat Toblerone.

[BlinkingDuck]

Hating on Jews is so.....last millenium.

You don't want your Jews? We'll take em.

[rogerbox]

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi

So the Jews have hit some sweet spot where they are unknown enough for people to hate them and well known enough for that hatred to be everywhere in the world?

Possibly, I'm not married to the idea. I think the vast majority of anti-jewish sentiment in the U.S. is hand me down European bigotry. But I also know some latinos who I have NO IDEA where they get their anti-semitism from...and I'm not talking about anti-zionist, they say mean things about jews and I know some of them can't even name a jew they know personally...can't figure it out.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi

Perhaps it was seen as barbaric to eat something while it was still alive like lions do to the wildebeast. They might have felt differently if they knew the thing being eaten alive had its spinal cord severed so they wouldn't feel anything. Or maybe thats still a teensy bit barbaric.

I suspect it had something to do with ritual purity and bronze age religious rituals - somehow the notion that eating things alive was just plain wrong entered the mix. You are allowed to be cruel to animals under the Noahide laws, you just can't eat 'em while they live.

Well that's what Jesus did, I guess these kids all want to be Christians and eat Toblerone.

I can so see that becomming a Doper in-joke.

Well, briefly.

[Untoward_Parable]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Huh? Should Jews hesitate to invest their family future in a "Christian populated" company?



Jews don't "refuse full membership" to converts. There are no grades of Judaism. You are either a Jew or not. Some born Jews treat converted Jews as inferior. They are known colloquially as "assholes". It is not part of the religion and is most definitely not socially acceptable to be an asshole like that, any more than (say) it is acceptable for most Christian congregations to treat Black fellow-Christians as second-class -- even though some individuals may.

It is true that Judaism does not encourage people to convert and does not seek out converts. But once you do convert, you are as much a Jew as someone who could trace their family back to Moses.

If you encounter a company that feels highly biased toward advancement of any religious or other group you are not a part of I would suggest you work there only as long as you have to. There are hyper-Christian companies out there, (eg, Chic-Fil-a) that as an atheist I would feel very much unlikely to succeed in just based on not sharing the ra-ra jesus thing with them and being sniffed out as not on the team. My emphasis is that there are per capita of business venture more religiously and nepotistically biased companies within those founded and managed by Jewish people. This isn't necessarily stupid of Jews to do, but it does foster distrust and animosity between them and non-jews. I'm sure many modern Jews have felt discrimination on some level and are rightfully unhappy about it.

In modern times Reform denominations have begun accept converts, though this is probably mostly for people with a genealogical Jewish background who don't have the records necessary to prove it. This almost certainly would not be enough to allow you to emigrate to Isreal like other Jews and most of the Jewish world still considers you a second class Jew or not one at all even if they're officially forbidden in reform circles from saying so openly. That is if you get past the snide affronts of the synagogue you try to join. This is pretty recent in any case and the lack of proselytizing and unenthusiastic begrudging acceptance of new members by the most liberal denominations isn't going to do much to counteract the sociological fundamentals at work.

Certainly we can point to any number of objectively ugly reasons for anti-semitism but again I feel like these would be mitigated were the Jewish religion designed more like the other major religions in it's methods of recruitment. Not saying that's right or anything, just that it is.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Untoward_Parable

If you encounter a company that feels highly biased toward advancement of any religious or other group you are not a part of I would suggest you work there only as long as you have to. There are hyper-Christian companies out there, (eg, Chic-Fil-a) that as an atheist I would feel very much unlikely to succeed in just based on not sharing the ra-ra jesus thing with them and being sniffed out as not on the team. My emphasis is that there are per capita of business venture more religiously and nepotistically biased companies within those founded and managed by Jewish people. This isn't necessarily stupid of Jews to do, but it does foster distrust and animosity between them and non-jews. I'm sure many modern Jews have felt discrimination on some level and are rightfully unhappy about it.

Uh, really? And you know this because ... ?

Sounds to me like a perfect example of a "fact" that is simply "known" (i.e., a stereotype).

In modern times Reform denominations have begun accept converts, though this is probably mostly for people with a genealogical Jewish background who don't have the records necessary to prove it. This almost certainly would not be enough to allow you to emigrate to Isreal like other Jews and most of the Jewish world still considers you a second class Jew or not one at all even if they're officially forbidden in reform circles from saying so openly. That is if you get past the snide affronts of the synagogue you try to join. This is pretty recent in any case and the lack of proselytizing and unenthusiastic begrudging acceptance of new members by the most liberal denominations isn't going to do much to counteract the sociological fundamentals at work.

This is simply flat out untrue. Even the Orthodox Jews accept converts. Albeit, you have to become Orthodox like they are. The Law of Return does not exclude converts.

http://www.judaismconversion.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Certainly we can point to any number of objectively ugly reasons for anti-semitism but again I feel like these would be mitigated were the Jewish religion designed more like the other major religions in it's methods of recruitment. Not saying that's right or anything, just that it is.

Wait, you think that the fact that the Jews *don't* actively recruit is the *cause* of anti-Semitism?

Sort of, if I can't join 'em, I might as well beat 'em?

Now I've heard everything.

[rogerbox]

There was a poster here who left a job because she couldn't take the discrimination as the only goy who worked at that small business... I never understand why they hired her in the first place, though. But saying that Jewish insularity is why Christians have persecuted them for 2,000 years has to be the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard...Christian majority victimhood would be utterly hilarious if it wasn't so harmful to society. Imagine if these same Christians actually WERE victimized minorities, you would never be able to hear yourself think over all the whining.

[Untoward_Parable]

Originally Posted by Malthus

Uh, really? And you know this because ... ?

Sounds to me like a perfect example of a "fact" that is simply "known" (i.e., a stereotype).

This is simply flat out untrue. Even the Orthodox Jews accept converts. Albeit, you have to become Orthodox like they are. The Law of Return does not exclude converts.

http://www.judaismconversion.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Wait, you think that the fact that the Jews *don't* actively recruit is the *cause* of anti-Semitism?

Sort of, if I can't join 'em, I might as well beat 'em?

Now I've heard everything.

I've known a lot of Jewish people, maaaybe my sample size is giving me inaccurate results (though I doubt outside the margin of error), but I doubt it. Most of them have gone to work after college for the companies of their families or other jewish-run companies they have connections to through synagogue, school or acquaintance. The non-jewish people I have known have been fairly all over them map in this regard with a small minority getting this kind of preferential treatment in the labor market. Sometimes something is a stereotype because it's the general truth. Eg "Jews are smart.", (by group American jews are better educated than the average American). Of course there are exceptions and even a large subgroup of any population but when I speak about trends it's irrelevant.


From your own source:

"It is a commitment that cannot be made without extensive thought, learning and preparation. The process of conversion to Judaism is a lengthy one. Before a beit din (rabbinic court) will approve the conversion, its members must be positive that you are fully knowledgeable and committed to observing all of the laws and precepts of Judaism, that you are fully integrated into the Jewish way of life and are comfortable in the Jewish community – that you will be able to live a full, happy and productive life as a Jew."

"A potential candidate must find a Sponsoring Rabbi, who will serve as the liaison to and make the initial contact with the regional beit din. Any Orthodox rabbi may serve as a Sponsoring Rabbi. A Sponsoring Rabbi may only sponsor someone who lives in his or her own community, with whom he is personally familiar, and whom he is confident in recommending as a candidate. If a potential candidate does not live in an Orthodox community he or she must move in to one as part of the conversion process. The respective batei din and the central office are available to assist in locating sponsoring rabbis."


There's a difference between allowing something to happen on rare occasions as a token to tolerance and being open-armed and the real world result of incredibly difficult standards, procedures and personal sacrifice that create a result that very very few tokens will actually be produced.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Untoward_Parable

I've known a lot of Jewish people, maaaybe my sample size is giving me inaccurate results (though I doubt outside the margin of error), but I doubt it. Most of them have gone to work after college for the companies of their families or other jewish-run companies they have connections to through synagogue, school or acquaintance. The non-jewish people I have known have been fairly all over them map in this regard with a small minority getting this kind of preferential treatment in the labor market. Sometimes something is a stereotype because it's the general truth. Eg "Jews are smart.", (by group American jews are better educated than the average American). Of course there are exceptions and even a large subgroup of any population but when I speak about trends it's irrelevant.

I'm sorry, but "I've known a lot of Jews" isn't a good source. I mean, every person who holds to stereotypes thinks they are justified because, golly gee, they know people who fit the stereotype to a "T"! - that is why stereotypes persist, whether they have any truth to them or not.

Unless you actually have some objective proof that (say) Jews as a group are likely to on a "per capita of business venture [create] more religiously and nepotistically biased companies", you don't, in point of fact, know it. It sounds to me more like a stereotype you picked up and confirmation bias.

Your anecdotes concerning Jews you know are just that - anecdotes. I am pretty convinced I know more Jews than you, and my anecdotes don't agree with yours. Does that mean I win?

From your own source:

"It is a commitment that cannot be made without extensive thought, learning and preparation. The process of conversion to Judaism is a lengthy one. Before a beit din (rabbinic court) will approve the conversion, its members must be positive that you are fully knowledgeable and committed to observing all of the laws and precepts of Judaism, that you are fully integrated into the Jewish way of life and are comfortable in the Jewish community – that you will be able to live a full, happy and productive life as a Jew."

"A potential candidate must find a Sponsoring Rabbi, who will serve as the liaison to and make the initial contact with the regional beit din. Any Orthodox rabbi may serve as a Sponsoring Rabbi. A Sponsoring Rabbi may only sponsor someone who lives in his or her own community, with whom he is personally familiar, and whom he is confident in recommending as a candidate. If a potential candidate does not live in an Orthodox community he or she must move in to one as part of the conversion process. The respective batei din and the central office are available to assist in locating sponsoring rabbis."


There's a difference between allowing something to happen on rare occasions as a token to tolerance and being open-armed and the real world result of incredibly difficult standards, procedures and personal sacrifice that create a result that very very few tokens will actually be produced.

Orthodox Jews do nothing as a "token of tolerance". You are completely misreading their position and concerns.

If you knew anything about the Orthodox, you would know they care not a whit for what outsiders think, when it comes to religious matters. Their primary concern, always, is with religious integrity (for good or bad).

Of course they don't want people to convert unless they are willing to (if you will excuse the expression in context) go whole hog. Judaism is not a religion of belief, it is a religion of actions - particularly, living a certain way of life. They don't want someone to be Jewish unless they are willing to do that.

In any event, the whole notion is absurd. Why would people who hate Jews not hate them if it were easier for them to become Jews? Is violent anti-semitism sort of (in some people's theories) violent homophobia, that the people who hate Jews really, deep down, want to be Jews and are lashing out in frustration?

[Untoward_Parable]

Originally Posted by Malthus

I'm sorry, but "I've known a lot of Jews" isn't a good source. I mean, every person who holds to stereotypes thinks they are justified because, golly gee, they know people who fit the stereotype to a "T"! - that is why stereotypes persist, whether they have any truth to them or not.

Unless you actually have some objective proof that (say) Jews as a group are likely to on a "per capita of business venture [create] more religiously and nepotistically biased companies", you don't, in point of fact, know it. It sounds to me more like a stereotype you picked up and confirmation bias.

Your anecdotes concerning Jews you know are just that - anecdotes. I am pretty convinced I know more Jews than you, and my anecdotes don't agree with yours. Does that mean I win?



Orthodox Jews do nothing as a "token of tolerance". You are completely misreading their position and concerns.

If you knew anything about the Orthodox, you would know they care not a whit for what outsiders think, when it comes to religious matters. Their primary concern, always, is with religious integrity (for good or bad).

Of course they don't want people to convert unless they are willing to (if you will excuse the expression in context) go whole hog. Judaism is not a religion of belief, it is a religion of actions - particularly, living a certain way of life. They don't want someone to be Jewish unless they are willing to do that.

In any event, the whole notion is absurd. Why would people who hate Jews not hate them if it were easier for them to become Jews? Is violent anti-semitism sort of (in some people's theories) violent homophobia, that the people who hate Jews really, deep down, want to be Jews and are lashing out in frustration?

On the first point about anecdotes I suppose finding data on that is going to be near impossible without doing it ourselves, so we'll call that a tie. I'm going to assume you apply the same skepticism to your own "knowing more Jews" thesis.


On the orthodox conversion points A: Doesn't really matter how they justify it, the result is the same. People born Jewish are never questioned even if they're pretty much atheists because Jews consider themselves part of a race not just a religion.

As far as the notion being absurd the line you're taking is to test it logically in a very immediate sense. The problem is anti-semitism is very old, and the reasons for it are organic. When you recruit people from all walks of society around you the result is that most people wind up knowing someone who is of your religion, most people are related to someone in your religion. The insularity falls off because converts are exposing the identity of your religion all the time to people all over the society and many more mixtures of identity occur. The stereotypical characteristics become less reliably true and the cliche attacks have less bite. This happens over many many generations. It's simply the nature of humanity .

[Untoward_Parable]

Also I suppose that it does happen that people try to become Jewish and have failed or have not tried because they have been told it's very difficult or impossible and that they wont be considered a real Jew. Anyone with this experience I imagine would have pretty negative views that they would spread afterward about Jews. Fair or not it doesn't help the group much.

[Malthus]

Originally Posted by Untoward_Parable

On the first point about anecdotes I suppose finding data on that is going to be near impossible without doing it ourselves, so we'll call that a tie. I'm going to assume you apply the same skepticism to your own "knowing more Jews" thesis.

I'm not making an assertion about Jews (or non-Jews). Usually, it's the person making the assertion that has to provide proof.

I am simply pointing out that anecdote in this area is not proof. The fact that you cannot provide any evidence for your assertion is not a "tie" any more than the fact that believers cannot provide evidence for the existence of God is a "tie".

On the orthodox conversion points A: Doesn't really matter how they justify it, the result is the same. People born Jewish are never questioned even if they're pretty much atheists because Jews consider themselves part of a race not just a religion.

Well, more accurately a tribe. The difference is that race is tied to genetic identity. You can be Black and be a Jew.

Also, you can be adopted by a tribe (i.e., by "conversion", which is slightly different than converting to a belief-based system). You cannot, Michael Jackson aside, change your race.

Another difference is that the Jewish tribal identity is generally considered matrilinial.

All of which is to say that Judaism is somewhat different from (say) Christianity or Islam. In Islam, for example, conversion is simple - you just announce it. That's because the essence of Islam is submission to God. In Judaism, you have to in effect be adopted by the tribe - a lot more involved.

As far as the notion being absurd the line you're taking is to test it logically in a very immediate sense. The problem is anti-semitism is very old, and the reasons for it are organic. When you recruit people from all walks of society around you the result is that most people wind up knowing someone who is of your religion, most people are related to someone in your religion. The insularity falls off because converts are exposing the identity of your religion all the time to people all over the society and many more mixtures of identity occur. The stereotypical characteristics become less reliably true and the cliche attacks have less bite. This happens over many many generations. It's simply the nature of humanity .

I guess that explains why there are few troubles between Muslims and Christians then, since conversion in both cases is relatively easy.

Oh wait ...

[Untoward_Parable]

Originally Posted by Malthus

I'm not making an assertion about Jews (or non-Jews). Usually, it's the person making the assertion that has to provide proof.

I am simply pointing out that anecdote in this area is not proof. The fact that you cannot provide any evidence for your assertion is not a "tie" any more than the fact that believers cannot provide evidence for the existence of God is a "tie".



Well, more accurately a tribe. The difference is that race is tied to genetic identity. You can be Black and be a Jew.

Also, you can be adopted by a tribe (i.e., by "conversion", which is slightly different than converting to a belief-based system). You cannot, Michael Jackson aside, change your race.

Another difference is that the Jewish tribal identity is generally considered matrilinial.

All of which is to say that Judaism is somewhat different from (say) Christianity or Islam. In Islam, for example, conversion is simple - you just announce it. That's because the essence of Islam is submission to God. In Judaism, you have to in effect be adopted by the tribe - a lot more involved.



I guess that explains why there are few troubles between Muslims and Christians then, since conversion in both cases is relatively easy.

Oh wait ...

You are the one proposing that something that is a stereotype is not true, it is also not metaphysical. You are the one with the greater burden of poof.

Again the reasons why make no difference to the result or make them more justifiable. Every bad policy has had justifications. Black Jews are easy. Black man procreates with Jewish woman, Viola.

So you're saying Jews aren't any more hated than Christians or Muslims? Kind of defeats the topic.