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  #51  
Old 01-22-2011, 01:24 PM
Swede Hollow Swede Hollow is offline
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Originally Posted by sirfelgar View Post
I had to offer my two cents for this thread...

10. Dr. Taylor would have really f-ed herself up by running into the metal hull.

12. Are Uhura's Lee Press-On nails Starfleet issue? Not very functional.
re. #10 - Maybe they left the ship's navigational shields on which made for a softer bounce.

re. #12 - Since they started using touch-screens the nails aren't a problem.
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  #52  
Old 01-22-2011, 03:40 PM
Cartooniverse Cartooniverse is offline
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Originally Posted by PSXer View Post
the tour group were laughing to be polite and to acknowledge that they indeed did get the joke.

If Kirk can just bring back Gillian to the future and ignore all the possible time line problems, why didn't he bring back Edith Keeler (whatever her name was from City On The Edge Of Forever) back to the future because she was gonna die anyway and he actually wanted to save her
Edith and Gillian catfight !!! Yes !!!!!!

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  #53  
Old 12-28-2012, 10:31 PM
Vector 1 Vector 1 is offline
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Originally Posted by BlueOhio View Post
I always assumed they were laughing *at* Gillian, not with her. I would've.
To all those who have wondered what the funny aspect of her comment was regarding George & Gracie, it was a simple reference to George Burns and Gracie Allen. It would be the equivalent of naming a couple of captive animals Abbott & Costello. When people would hear it, they would laugh at the notion of naming a pair of animals after a famous human duo.
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  #54  
Old 12-28-2012, 10:54 PM
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Gene was an anti-smoking advocate.
Who nevertheless smoked like a chimney himself.
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  #55  
Old 12-29-2012, 06:48 AM
terentii terentii is online now
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Gene was an anti-smoking advocate. In TOS they tried to get him to put cigarettes in as product placement. "Space Marlboros" They could be different colors or light themselves or be square instead of round. Roddenberry declined forcefully.
At what point did this occur? Roddenberry was a heavy smoker until at least the first season of TOS; he always held his cigarette between the middle and ring fingers of his right (I believe) hand. IIRC, he had both a fag and a drink in his hand when I met him briefly in 1987.

I'd've thought Gene Coon's death from lung cancer would have been enough to make the whole cast and crew kick the habit in the early '70s....
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  #56  
Old 12-29-2012, 07:32 AM
John DiFool John DiFool is online now
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At what point did this occur? Roddenberry was a heavy smoker until at least the first season of TOS; he always held his cigarette between the middle and ring fingers of his right (I believe) hand. IIRC, he had both a fag and a drink in his hand when I met him briefly in 1987.
So he was gay too?
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  #57  
Old 12-29-2012, 07:51 AM
terentii terentii is online now
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So he was gay too?
Uhm, no.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...fag%20(british)
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  #58  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:41 AM
DrFidelius DrFidelius is online now
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A Whooosh sound, much like that made by a space ship speeding through the opening credits.
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  #59  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:44 AM
jayjay jayjay is offline
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Originally Posted by terentii View Post
At what point did this occur? Roddenberry was a heavy smoker until at least the first season of TOS; he always held his cigarette between the middle and ring fingers of his right (I believe) hand. IIRC, he had both a fag and a drink in his hand when I met him briefly in 1987.
Just because he was a smoker doesn't mean that he wasn't anti-smoking (-in-the-future).
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  #60  
Old 12-29-2012, 09:49 AM
terentii terentii is online now
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Just because he was a smoker doesn't mean that he wasn't anti-smoking (-in-the-future).
Pity. He might have lived a longer and healthier life if he had quit ca. 1968.
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  #61  
Old 12-29-2012, 12:24 PM
SanibelMan SanibelMan is offline
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Uhura and Chekov went to Starfleet Academy, which is in the Presidio in San Francisco, right? So how come neither of them had even heard of Alameda? I assume you spend at least a few years going through the academy, and in all that time, neither of them wandered around the Bay Area?
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  #62  
Old 12-29-2012, 12:35 PM
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Most likely, it hasn't been known as Alameda since The Eugenics Wars.
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  #63  
Old 12-29-2012, 01:50 PM
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There should have been a lot more shots of Catherine Hicks in her wet sweater in the bay.
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  #64  
Old 12-29-2012, 02:32 PM
Mister Rik Mister Rik is offline
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Originally Posted by Bryan Ekers View Post
Reminds me of one of the more prophetic Mad Magazine bits, during their parody of Trek IV:

Kirk: We need to get to the Naval base. Uhura! Go over there and hustle those sailors!

Uhura: May I remind you that we're in San Francisco?

Kirk: You're right! Sulu! Go over there and hustle those sailors!
Hah! I remember that! Wasn't there another joke revolving around Scotty's "There be whales here" line and Kirk making a crack about Scotty's/James Doohan's weight?

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Originally Posted by sirfelgar View Post
BTW, George and Gracie means very little to me, either, and I doubt the teenager on that tour group knew what she was talking about.
Is it safe to assume you're not American? I was a teenager in the '80s and knew darn well who George Burns was. I'm pretty sure most of my peers knew who he was too — he was still making movies in the '80s and appearing in TV specials (usually alongside Bob Hope and that crowd) — and most of us had probably at least heard of Gracie Allen - after all, our parents were old enough to remember their TV show(s).

Last edited by Mister Rik; 12-29-2012 at 02:33 PM..
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  #65  
Old 12-29-2012, 02:33 PM
Peter Morris Peter Morris is offline
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Spock is unable to precisely calculate the weight of the whales, so he has to guess. Why didn't he just go to a whale-weigh station?
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  #66  
Old 12-29-2012, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Peter Morris View Post
Spock is unable to precisely calculate the weight of the whales, so he has to guess. Why didn't he just go to a whale-weigh station?
He couldn't find the right one.
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  #67  
Old 12-29-2012, 04:03 PM
SirGalahad SirGalahad is offline
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Plexiglass plant?

Does it bother anyone that transparent Aluminum is a metal ... and a plexiglass plant manufactures a clear thermoplastic? Wouldn't a metal smelter or Aluminum factory of some sort have better tools and know-how to create a large hunk of metal than a plastic manufacturer? I don't think a plexiglass maker could even attempt Aluminum production on any scale. Am I missing something?
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  #68  
Old 12-29-2012, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SirGalahad View Post
Does it bother anyone that transparent Aluminum is a metal ... and a plexiglass plant manufactures a clear thermoplastic? Wouldn't a metal smelter or Aluminum factory of some sort have better tools and know-how to create a large hunk of metal than a plastic manufacturer? I don't think a plexiglass maker could even attempt Aluminum production on any scale. Am I missing something?
Scotty was trading the formula/process for transparent aluminum for the needed amount of Plexiglas as they had no money.
And in the novelization, Scotty recognizes Nichols as the inventor.
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  #69  
Old 12-29-2012, 04:14 PM
DrFidelius DrFidelius is online now
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Originally Posted by SirGalahad View Post
Does it bother anyone that transparent Aluminum is a metal ... and a plexiglass plant manufactures a clear thermoplastic? Wouldn't a metal smelter or Aluminum factory of some sort have better tools and know-how to create a large hunk of metal than a plastic manufacturer? I don't think a plexiglass maker could even attempt Aluminum production on any scale. Am I missing something?
Yes. They didn't get Transparent Aluminum from Plexicorps. They traded the formula for TA to that guy who wasn't Newman but should have been (in my mind he was played by Wayne Knight) for plexiglass sufficient to turn the cargo bay of the Bird of Prey into a whale-worthy tank.
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  #70  
Old 12-29-2012, 04:36 PM
simster simster is online now
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Originally Posted by Peter Morris View Post
Spock is unable to precisely calculate the weight of the whales, so he has to guess. Why didn't he just go to a whale-weigh station?
I;m sorry - I thought that water and water displacement theory was fairly well known, even in the 20th century - shouldn't he have been able to calculate the volume of the cargo bay and extrapolated how much it would have weighed based on that alone?

It's a great line in the movie - but as far as I always understood it - water is displaced by an equal mass - therefore it should have wieghed the same amout as if it were 'salt water' only.
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  #71  
Old 12-29-2012, 04:45 PM
squeegee squeegee is offline
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Originally Posted by simster View Post
I;m sorry - I thought that water and water displacement theory was fairly well known, even in the 20th century - shouldn't he have been able to calculate the volume of the cargo bay and extrapolated how much it would have weighed based on that alone?

It's a great line in the movie - but as far as I always understood it - water is displaced by an equal mass - therefore it should have wieghed the same amout as if it were 'salt water' only.
Maybe I'm not following you, but I think that would only be true if a whale were the same density as seawater, which obviously is not the case. If you plopped a whale into an exactly-full tank of water, and caught and measured the seawater that overflowed, you'd know the volume of the whale, but not its weight.
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  #72  
Old 12-29-2012, 04:49 PM
simster simster is online now
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Maybe I'm not following you, but I think that would only be true if a whale were the same density as seawater, which obviously is not the case. If you plopped a whale into an exactly-full tank of water, and caught and measured the seawater that overflowed, you'd know the volume of the whale, but not its weight.
Archimedes' principle

Archimedes' principle is named after Archimedes of Syracuse, who first discovered this law in 212 B.C.[2] For more objects, floating and sunken, and in gases as well as liquids (i.e. a fluid), Archimedes' principle may be stated thus in terms of forces:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Archimedes of Syracuse
Any object, wholly or partially immersed in a fluid, is buoyed up by a force equal to the weight of the fluid displaced by the object.

with the clarifications that for a sunken object the volume of displaced fluid is the volume of the object, and for a floating object on a liquid, the weight of the displaced liquid is the weight of the object.

From WikiPedia -

I would say that the Whales would be defined as "floating"

Last edited by simster; 12-29-2012 at 04:52 PM..
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  #73  
Old 12-29-2012, 04:57 PM
simster simster is online now
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(and having thought tht thru - I realize he could not have easily figured out how much was about to be displaced since they were beamed up "as a unit".)
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  #74  
Old 12-29-2012, 05:03 PM
Peter Morris Peter Morris is offline
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Archimedes' principle is true for an inanimate object, such as a golden crown or a boat. I don't think it's true for a living, swimming, creature. Whales are, I'm pretty sure, somewhat heavier than the water they displace but keep from sinking by moving their bodies.

I think.
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  #75  
Old 12-29-2012, 05:11 PM
terentii terentii is online now
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Originally Posted by Peter Morris View Post
Archimedes' principle is true for an inanimate object, such as a golden crown or a boat. I don't think it's true for a living, swimming, creature. Whales are, I'm pretty sure, somewhat heavier than the water they displace but keep from sinking by moving their bodies.

I think.
With all that fat and the air inside their lungs? Not to mention brain/nerve tissue and other internal organs? I doubt it.
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  #76  
Old 12-29-2012, 05:47 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Most likely, they're pretty close to neutrally buoyant and make up the difference (in whichever direction) via lift generated by their motion. But they wouldn't be exactly neutrally buoyant, since that's a target that's essentially impossible to hit precisely.

That said, though, the assumption of neutral buoyancy would probably be a good enough approximation for any calculations Spock needed to do.
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  #77  
Old 12-29-2012, 05:48 PM
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Most likely, they're pretty close to neutrally buoyant and make up the difference (in whichever direction) via lift generated by their motion. But they wouldn't be exactly neutrally buoyant, since that's a target that's essentially impossible to hit precisely.

That said, though, the assumption of neutral buoyancy would probably be a good enough approximation for any calculations Spock needed to do.
Then he's back to making the best guess that he can.
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  #78  
Old 12-29-2012, 06:39 PM
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The one thing that bugs me in this movie is that they keep switching between walking up & down a ramp and beaming on and off the spaceship. In the scene just before Gillian hangs onto Kirk as he's being beamed on board, the rest of the group had just walked up the ramp. They could beam up 2 whales and a lot of sea water, but they couldn't beam up the whale tank components? I'm willing to suspend disbelief on time travel and the whole beam up/down thing, but I want consistency!

BTW this is one of my favorite ST movies.
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  #79  
Old 12-29-2012, 07:12 PM
Uosdwis R. Dewoh Uosdwis R. Dewoh is offline
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14. So this massive probe was sent to say about 100 words or so to the whales and then jet? Weird.
Probe. HEY WHALE!
Whale: Fuck, not this moron again.
Probe. HEY WHALE!
Whale: Whaat?
Probe. HEY WHALE!
Whale: What do you want?! My ears, goddammit!
Probe: HAVE YOU HEARD THE GOOD WORD OF THE SPACE WHALE JESUS?
Whale: Fuck off!
Probe: OK, I'LL COME BACK IN A MILLENNIUM. MAY I LEAVE A PAMPHLET?
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  #80  
Old 12-29-2012, 08:06 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
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Then he's back to making the best guess that he can.
How do you weigh a cargo bay?
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  #81  
Old 12-29-2012, 10:13 PM
Cartooniverse Cartooniverse is offline
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Originally Posted by simster View Post
Archimedes' principle

Archimedes' principle is named after Archimedes of Syracuse, who first discovered this law in 212 B.C.[2] For more objects, floating and sunken, and in gases as well as liquids (i.e. a fluid), Archimedes' principle may be stated thus in terms of forces:




with the clarifications that for a sunken object the volume of displaced fluid is the volume of the object, and for a floating object on a liquid, the weight of the displaced liquid is the weight of the object.

From WikiPedia -

I would say that the Whales would be defined as "floating"
I just need to say here that quoting Archimedes of Syracuse on the Dope may be one of the cleverest things I've ever read here. And I've read Jillgat and Eve. This is up there in terms of clever. And amusing.
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  #82  
Old 12-29-2012, 10:39 PM
Ethilrist Ethilrist is online now
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Most likely, it hasn't been known as Alameda since The Eugenics Wars.
Or, they haven't had nuclear wessels there in so long that they didn't remember where they were kept.
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  #83  
Old 12-29-2012, 10:46 PM
simster simster is online now
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I just need to say here that quoting Archimedes of Syracuse on the Dope may be one of the cleverest things I've ever read here. And I've read Jillgat and Eve. This is up there in terms of clever. And amusing.
uhhh, thanks?

what is Jillgat and Eve ?
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  #84  
Old 12-30-2012, 12:05 AM
Raguleader Raguleader is offline
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uhhh, thanks?

what is Jillgat and Eve ?
Shaka, when the walls fell!
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  #85  
Old 12-30-2012, 12:43 AM
Robot Arm Robot Arm is offline
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I just need to say here that quoting Archimedes of Syracuse on the Dope may be one of the cleverest things I've ever read here.
It ain't Archimedes of Flatbush.

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Shaka, when the walls fell!
Sokath, his eyes opened.
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  #86  
Old 12-30-2012, 02:16 AM
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Don't get me wrong - I love this movie. Watching it again, I noticed some really minor things that I thought I'd share. I'll forgo the obvious geographical errors, since they're obvious. (And since I'd already noticed them).
[list]
[*] How the hell did Sulu get that helicopter? Did he just happen across the most trusting military mechanic in the US?
How do you think? That's right, a little hot, sweaty "swordplay".

Last edited by astro; 12-30-2012 at 02:20 AM..
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  #87  
Old 12-30-2012, 07:24 AM
Cartooniverse Cartooniverse is offline
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uhhh, thanks?

what is Jillgat and Eve ?
Two rather clever Dopers.
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  #88  
Old 12-30-2012, 04:06 PM
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What do they have to do with simster stating Archimedes' Principle? Were you being sarcastic?
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  #89  
Old 12-30-2012, 04:08 PM
phxjcc phxjcc is offline
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Surprised no one has mentioned the fact that a doctoral level whale biologist and assistant director of the institute is giving tours. I think that there are probably better uses of her time. You don't see Bill Gates giving tours at Microsoft.



1. As far as the internal footage of the Enterprises destruction, I figure the Enterprise had a black box like present day Airliners. The external footage? My fanwank is that the BoP automatically transmits data back to Klingon Command, or how about SFC subpoenaed the footage.

2. Meh. I can easily let this go.

3. Spock's clothes that he wears into the tank are visibly wet. You ca clearly see that the is not wearing the robe in the water, and is seen putting it back on after he gets out of the Tank.

4. Maybe while Scotty was programing the compound he entered the name as well. (It wouldn't be a new element, possibly an alloy, but that was a molecular structure which would tend to rule that out, I think.

5. Never important for me either. I always assumed he "borrowed" it some way or another.

6. Never bothered me. At that point the dilithium crystals were still functioning at a rate where it wasn't a problem. Power consumption didn't seem to be a factor in how quickly the crystals were failing.

7. Maybe he'd only had synthehol beer previously. But I kind of agree on this one.

8. Stuff like this is often changed from reality for the screen. I think the majority of movie goers would let this slide by without noticing.

9. See above.

10. Movie physics. The cloak makes the ship softer maybe?

11. Treknology only does what it needs to do to further the plot.

12. Meh.

13. He's an alien. Who knows his sensory acuity.

14. Who's to say there wasn't more to the story afterwards. I know there was at least one novel following this up.

15. The film of the whale models and actual whales was good enough that the filmmakers got in trouble for breaking some law that had to do with how close you were allowed to get to them, until they demonstrated that the shots of concern were models.

16. Maybe it was a refit of a recommissioned starship. There is generally a shakedown cruise after major refits.

This stuff is why I love reading the SDMB!
Indeed.

This thread is why I love reading the SDMB.

Just to be clear on the transparent aluminum thing....please: someone?

Was he material that they brought back and used to construct the aquarium plexiglass that was bartered for by providing the guy with the formula for transparent aluminum?

Until a previous SDMB thread on ST IV, I always thought that it was transparent aluminum that they somehow manufactured after Scotty gave them the formula.

Thanks.
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  #90  
Old 12-30-2012, 04:16 PM
simster simster is online now
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Originally Posted by phxjcc View Post
Indeed.

This thread is why I love reading the SDMB.

Just to be clear on the transparent aluminum thing....please: someone?

Was he material that they brought back and used to construct the aquarium plexiglass that was bartered for by providing the guy with the formula for transparent aluminum?

Until a previous SDMB thread on ST IV, I always thought that it was transparent aluminum that they somehow manufactured after Scotty gave them the formula.

Thanks.
They are using Plexiglass - 6" thick - that Plexicorp had in stock.

Scotty gave them the formula - "it will take years to understand it".
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  #91  
Old 12-30-2012, 04:26 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
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I imagine that beer from three hundred years ago probably tasted very little like Bud draft; three hundred years in the future beer will probably taste differently than it does now.
I don't believe that there was synthehol (sp) in Kirk's era. Romulan ale and that green stuff were real enough.
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  #92  
Old 12-30-2012, 06:06 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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In the Next Gen episode with Scotty, he was very surprised (and disgusted) by synthehol.
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  #93  
Old 12-30-2012, 07:12 PM
Ethilrist Ethilrist is online now
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I imagine that beer from three hundred years ago probably tasted very little like Bud draft; three hundred years in the future beer will probably taste differently than it does now.
I don't believe that there was synthehol (sp) in Kirk's era. Romulan ale and that green stuff were real enough.
Well, I'd wager that Budweiser will taste almost exactly the same three hundred years from now. However, it will taste vastly different from anything an admiral would buy to stock his fridge.
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  #94  
Old 12-30-2012, 07:44 PM
simster simster is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
In the Next Gen episode with Scotty, he was very surprised (and disgusted) by synthehol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty
Laddie, I was drinking Scotch a hundred years before you were born. And I can tell you that whatever this is, it is definitely not Scotch.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scotty
Never get drunk unless you're willing to pay for it - the next day.
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  #95  
Old 12-30-2012, 09:00 PM
cochrane cochrane is offline
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I imagine that beer from three hundred years ago probably tasted very little like Bud draft; three hundred years in the future beer will probably taste differently than it does now.
I don't believe that there was synthehol (sp) in Kirk's era. Romulan ale and that green stuff were real enough.
Wasn't synthehol invented by the Ferengi? And I believe that Picard was the first Federation officer to make contact with them. And nevermind that one Enterprise episode. Although synthehol could probably have been obtained on the black market in the 23rd century.

Last edited by cochrane; 12-30-2012 at 09:03 PM..
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  #96  
Old 12-31-2012, 05:57 PM
robert_columbia robert_columbia is offline
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...
16. At the end, Starfleet has created a new Enterprise, 1701-A, which seems to be heavily based on the earlier design that was 30 years old. Now, the ship appears to have been built in about three months or so following the destruction of the 1701 in ST III. That's pretty darn quick. Also, aircraft carriers like those of the Nimitz class may have operational lifetimes of 50+ years, but the 1701-A was decommissioned only seven years after it was built. Seems like an incredible waste of time, esp. since the new Excelsior class had already been around for a few years.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebra View Post
...

The Excelsior had not been around for years. The events in IV take place only shortly after the events of III. And the Excelsior was just going out on it's shakedown cruise.
It's quite possible that people thought that the Constitution class ships were still worth having and making in IV, but that something changed in the future (maybe the Excelsior turned out better than they thought, or maybe Starfleet got a big budget increase and decided to pump it into making better starships (e.g. more Excelsiors) instead of using their limited budget to make new ships from an older and simpler design (Constution refit), and a decision was made to accellerate retirement of Constitution class ships)

Last edited by robert_columbia; 12-31-2012 at 05:57 PM..
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  #97  
Old 12-31-2012, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by robert_columbia View Post
It's quite possible that people thought that the Constitution class ships were still worth having and making in IV, but that something changed in the future (maybe the Excelsior turned out better than they thought, or maybe Starfleet got a big budget increase and decided to pump it into making better starships (e.g. more Excelsiors) instead of using their limited budget to make new ships from an older and simpler design (Constution refit), and a decision was made to accellerate retirement of Constitution class ships)
What budget? Kirk said they don't have money in the 23rd century.
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  #98  
Old 12-31-2012, 06:18 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
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I think they took another Constitution class out of mothball and renamed her.
The DS9 ship was replaced with one formerly named San Pablo, a tribute to The Sand Pebbles.
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  #99  
Old 01-01-2013, 03:26 AM
SirGalahad SirGalahad is offline
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I don't remember the specific exposition where the "trade" for Plexiglass happened, but I'll take you-all's word for it. What get's me is: Why did they need a transparent bulkhead? It seems that it would have been easier to waterproof the light fixtures and install closed circuit cameras to keep an eye on the whales in a flooded compartment. Did they really need to make a clear viewing window for their temporary "aquarium"?
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  #100  
Old 01-01-2013, 07:42 AM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirGalahad View Post
I don't remember the specific exposition where the "trade" for Plexiglass happened, but I'll take you-all's word for it. What get's me is: Why did they need a transparent bulkhead? It seems that it would have been easier to waterproof the light fixtures and install closed circuit cameras to keep an eye on the whales in a flooded compartment. Did they really need to make a clear viewing window for their temporary "aquarium"?
It may have been the easy for them to work with and quickly available.
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