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  #1  
Old 12-30-2012, 06:58 PM
astro astro is online now
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Are German Shepherds really the best police dogs? What other dogs could you use?

Are German Shepherds really the best police dogs bar none or there other breeds that could do as well?

Just curious.
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  #2  
Old 12-30-2012, 07:05 PM
Baron Greenback Baron Greenback is offline
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It depends what you mean about the best police dogs? Drug sniffers, crowd control, cadaver dogs? Does it depend on the dog, maybe?
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  #3  
Old 12-30-2012, 07:07 PM
artemis artemis is offline
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There are lots of breeds that do well. Belgian Malinois are now commonly used for police work, and some individuals from the the other related Belgian herding breeds (Belgian sheepdog, Belgian Tervuren, and Belgian Lakenois) are also suitable for the work. Dobermans can be used, if you can find lines still bred for working (they are more common in Europe), and so can Rottweilers. Giant and Standard Schnauzers, Beaucerons, Boxers (if you can find working lines, which is hard these days), some of the larger mastiff-type breeds such as the Dogo Argentino and Cane Corso, Akitas, and even some hunting breeds such as Chesapeake Bay Retrievers are all suitable.

It's more about the individual dog having the proper temperament, drive, working ability, and intelligence than it is about breed.
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Old 12-30-2012, 07:11 PM
artemis artemis is offline
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Baron Greenback also makes a good point: the exact type of police work being performed will influence what breed is used. My list assumed that by "police work" you meant a dog that the police could use to attack and hold a suspect on command, as well as for some general scent/tracking work. Drug dogs are often chosen from hunting breeds (especially retrievers). For real scent-tracking, nothing beats a Bloodhound. Search and Rescue work can be done by almost any breed.
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  #5  
Old 12-30-2012, 07:41 PM
EmilyG EmilyG is online now
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I've seen black labs used as sniffer dogs.

I suppose the labs are not as aggressive as German Shepherds, so they wouldn't be used for more "forceful" police work where being aggressive is important, but they have good enough noses to be used as sniffer dogs.

Last edited by EmilyG; 12-30-2012 at 07:42 PM..
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  #6  
Old 12-30-2012, 07:48 PM
SerafinaPekala SerafinaPekala is offline
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Ive read that poodles can make good police dogs d/t their intelligence. I spose it would depend on the particular dog and whatever training was required, because the few standard poodles Ive known are hyper hoopers and a bit addle-brained!
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  #7  
Old 12-30-2012, 08:20 PM
chiroptera chiroptera is online now
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As stated, it really depends on what duties you expect from the dog. Shelter dogs have proven valuable as various types of scent and service dogs.

Belgian shepherds (Malinois et al) are faster-maturing, generally more structurally sound and have a better work ethic than many GSDs....but that also depends on bloodline. Am-bred show German shepherds are probably pretty much crap as far as structural and working ability - GSDs from bloodlines bred to work are a better bet. Were I to look specifically for a high-drive working dog, I'd look to some of the European bred Belgian shepherds from working lines. "Aggression" is not a desired trait in any venue. Drive and control, yes. Drive does not = aggression.

Many breeds (or even cross-breeds) can do service/police/military work, though.
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  #8  
Old 12-30-2012, 08:37 PM
Jackmannii Jackmannii is offline
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Cavalier King Charles spaniels would make great police dogs.

Send a Cav in after a barricaded suspect. The suspect winds up patting the dog, calms down and gives himself up.

It'd work every time.
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  #9  
Old 12-30-2012, 08:47 PM
chiroptera chiroptera is online now
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
Cavalier King Charles spaniels would make great police dogs.

Send a Cav in after a barricaded suspect. The suspect winds up patting the dog, calms down and gives himself up.

It'd work every time.
LOL and for truth.
Same could be said for French bulldogs.
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  #10  
Old 12-30-2012, 08:48 PM
Shagnasty Shagnasty is offline
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German Shepherds hit the sweet spot of being fairly large, athletic, somewhat aggressive, and highly intelligent. Good ones are also very selective about when and where they display their aggression and are highly protective of the people that they bond with. That makes for a good police dog in general. My younger brother was a K-9 officer for a while and his partner was a female German Shepherd that lived with him. She was the sweetest and smartest dog you ever met until it came time to attack a felon and then she would make a timber wolf blush.

I grew up with a ton of German Shepherds and mixes. They were great family dogs, extremely protective and great with anyone they knew especially if we were around but all bets were off if someone came to the house when we weren't home. Needless to say, we never got robbed.

The problem German Shepherds in the U.S. is that many of them are greatly overbred and are prone to some genetic and behavioral issues if you don't select them carefully. Still, some good bloodlines exist but you have to pay a lot for them.

Other dog breeds like Dobermans make good police dogs too but they are a little smaller. There aren't a whole lot of breeds that have the intimidation factor combined with intelligence and loyalty that good German Shepherds do. Rottweilers are stronger and can be more vicious but they aren't usually as smart or athletic as German Shepherds. Standard Poodles are smart and athletic but don't have much street cred.

Last edited by Shagnasty; 12-30-2012 at 08:52 PM..
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  #11  
Old 12-30-2012, 08:57 PM
Kansas Beekeeper Kansas Beekeeper is online now
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I had a Belgian Malinois. She was a great dog; intensely loyal without being overly defensive to strangers; lots of energy but with the ability to learn and behave; none of the hip problems German Shepherds. I see them in canine police cars often.
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  #12  
Old 12-30-2012, 09:06 PM
FlyByNight512 FlyByNight512 is offline
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Originally Posted by chiroptera View Post
Belgian shepherds (Malinois et al) are faster-maturing, generally more structurally sound and have a better work ethic than many GSDs....but that also depends on bloodline. Am-bred show German shepherds are probably pretty much crap as far as structural and working ability - GSDs from bloodlines bred to work are a better bet. Were I to look specifically for a high-drive working dog, I'd look to some of the European bred Belgian shepherds from working lines. "Aggression" is not a desired trait in any venue. Drive and control, yes. Drive does not = aggression.

Many breeds (or even cross-breeds) can do service/police/military work, though.

It's worth mentioning that Malnois and similar breeds are genetically very close to German Shepherds and look pretty much identical. You've probably seen them already and assumed they were Germans.

My impression was that German Shepherds were stricken with the curse of popularity and the breed's quality went downhill fast in the US, so it became easier to find super-high-quality working dogs for police purposes among European breeds of similar descent. Unfortunately the US has some pretty dumb ideas about breeding animals - once a breed is established, the AKC (and most horse related organizations) close the stud book and don't allow any new genetics into the pool, because then it wouldn't be "pure". Combine that with a focus on exaggerated 'type' over working ability, and bad stuff happens in short order. European groups tend to be more sensible about such things. (Though in the example I just linked, the UKC is actually being worse than the AKC. Really, a non-Dalmation ancestor thirteen generations back is somehow worse than deliberately breeding dogs with a severe tendency to develop kidney stones? Go ahead, ask me if I feel strongly about this.)

There are plenty of mixed breed dogs that can do police, herding, service, and other work - all you need is a strong dog of about the right size, right mindset, general good health, and sharp mind. However, finding that dog among a litter of carefully bred puppies is far easier than finding one at your local pound, so it doesn't usually happen.
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  #13  
Old 12-30-2012, 09:14 PM
FlyByNight512 FlyByNight512 is offline
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Malinois, not Malnois. Dammit.
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  #14  
Old 12-30-2012, 09:25 PM
chiroptera chiroptera is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyByNight512 View Post
It's worth mentioning that Malnois and similar breeds are genetically very close to German Shepherds and look pretty much identical. You've probably seen them already and assumed they were Germans.

My impression was that German Shepherds were stricken with the curse of popularity and the breed's quality went downhill fast in the US, so it became easier to find super-high-quality working dogs for police purposes among European breeds of similar descent. Unfortunately the US has some pretty dumb ideas about breeding animals - once a breed is established, the AKC (and most horse related organizations) close the stud book and don't allow any new genetics into the pool, because then it wouldn't be "pure". Combine that with a focus on exaggerated 'type' over working ability, and bad stuff happens in short order. European groups tend to be more sensible about such things. (Though in the example I just linked, the UKC is actually being worse than the AKC. Really, a non-Dalmation ancestor thirteen generations back is somehow worse than deliberately breeding dogs with a severe tendency to develop kidney stones? Go ahead, ask me if I feel strongly about this.)

There are plenty of mixed breed dogs that can do police, herding, service, and other work - all you need is a strong dog of about the right size, right mindset, general good health, and sharp mind. However, finding that dog among a litter of carefully bred puppies is far easier than finding one at your local pound, so it doesn't usually happen.
Yes absolutely. I owned a non-working/rescue Mal for years, and have owned Rottweilers who acheived CH titles in various working venues.

Basically, without being extremely knowlegeable about show v working lines (I'm not, actually) blethering on about this or that breed is meaningless prattle.

But I know people in the US dog world who make a concsious effort to avoid the "popular sire" syndrome and who breed infrequently, and then only to multi-generational health-tested and proven (highly titled, Sch 3) non-US lines to foster genetic diversity. Unfortunately such people are in a minority.

Last edited by chiroptera; 12-30-2012 at 09:26 PM..
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  #15  
Old 12-31-2012, 12:30 AM
artemis artemis is offline
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Originally Posted by Jackmannii View Post
Cavalier King Charles spaniels would make great police dogs.

Send a Cav in after a barricaded suspect. The suspect winds up patting the dog, calms down and gives himself up.

It'd work every time.
Not if you want your subject caught alive. A well-bred Cav is quite capable of licking a person to death.
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  #16  
Old 12-31-2012, 01:07 AM
drastic_quench drastic_quench is offline
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Malinois, not Malnois. Dammit.
Damn it.
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  #17  
Old 12-31-2012, 02:13 AM
My Lord My Lord is offline
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To do what? Be a police dog, a german sheperd hits all the right notes, but can he...

out-swim a Newfoundland?= NO
out-game a pitbull?= NO
out-muscle a Tosa inu?= NO
be more loyal than an akita?= NO
bark as much as a chiwawa?= NO
out-smart a jack russel=?=NO
be a better LGD than a Boer boel?=NO
out-run a grey hound?= NO
out sniff a bloodhound?= NO
have more prey drive then a Dogo argintine?=NO
-
But he can do all of what they do at 70% parality combined as his over-all attribute statistics, that is why non of them can exceed a German-shepherd in being a police dog, so the answer is as a "Police dog" the German shepered is unrivialed, consistancy revolves not only in performance but social propertys as well.

Every breed have there own unique strengths, so I must ask, do you mean hunting dog, fighting dog or guard dog....or do you mean just plain oh Police dog...because the german shepered has been bread that way, it will take a heck of a long time to replicate or make a better Police dog thats consistant as a the german sheperd breed were talking of hundreds of years selective breeding different breeds, traits an qualitys into his geno, which again can be lost in a few lines of back yard breeding designer dogs gone wrong.
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  #18  
Old 12-31-2012, 07:15 AM
Sailboat Sailboat is offline
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First and foremost, generalizations about breed tendencies are just that -- generalizations, not applicable to individual dogs, who can vary pretty widely in temperament and ability. It's common to make too much of breed tendencies.

Of course, dogs picked for serious work like police work are usually exemplars of the tendencies the breed is known for -- but that's partly because the people selecting them weed out dogs who don't exemplify the characteristics.

A variety of breeds are used by law enforcement for different tasks.

For sniffing work, although Bloodhounds have the reputation for the most sensitive noses, other breeds are used as well. In particular, the dogs used to sniff for contraband fruit and plants in airports are typically Beagles -- mostly because Beagles don't scare people, and they're good enough to do the work.

The all-time United States record drug bust by a sniffer dog belongs to a US Customs pit bull named Popsicle (because he was rescued from a freezer).

Some police agencies have said they don't use pit bulls for attacking and subduing suspects (i.e., only for sniffing) because they're too friendly toward strangers; the "guarding breeds" make better choices for such work. But the Wikipedia list of police dog breeds indicates some police forces use them as "public order enforcement dogs." I know of at least one team that uses pit bulls for search and rescue work.

It's worth noting that rats and wasps are being trained to sniff out explosives and other contraband. I doubt they will replace dogs for other duties, though.
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  #19  
Old 12-31-2012, 08:08 AM
ladyfoxfyre ladyfoxfyre is offline
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The guys that I know with military working dogs all have Belgian Malinois.
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  #20  
Old 12-31-2012, 10:37 AM
Dendarii Dame Dendarii Dame is offline
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If you're interested, there's a Belgian Malinois on the TV show Person of Interest. One of the human characters is disabled, and "Bear" (the dog) is more or less his bodyguard.

Whenever trouble starts, I yell at the screen, "Just drop the leash!"
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  #21  
Old 12-31-2012, 10:59 AM
Sailboat Sailboat is offline
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There's a particular German Shepherd at my local off-leash dog park who takes it upon herself to "pull over" "speeders." She will run up and challenge dogs who run too fast; as soon as they slow down to a trot, she moves out of their way. I don't think she's had any police training. I'm not sure if she's just excited by the rapid movement or motivated by a Germanic fondness for order and rules.

It would be funny, except that a lot of dogs come to the dog park to run around and burn off energy, and this sort of behavior deters that. An off-leash dog park isn't supposed to be too sedate.
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  #22  
Old 12-31-2012, 11:31 AM
WhyNot WhyNot is offline
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There's a particular German Shepherd at my local off-leash dog park who takes it upon herself to "pull over" "speeders." She will run up and challenge dogs who run too fast; as soon as they slow down to a trot, she moves out of their way. I don't think she's had any police training. I'm not sure if she's just excited by the rapid movement or motivated by a Germanic fondness for order and rules.
My German Shepherd grandmother's German Shepherd (a family joke, as Gram was also German, with the last name of Shepherd!) used to herd us kids all the time. Sweet wonderful dog who liked us all in a nicely tidy bunch so he could keep an eye on everyone. I think it comes from the Shepherd instinct - these dogs were bred to keep groups of animals together, so the ones who did it without teaching were bred to have more pups who'd do it without teaching.

Sam did it in mostly the way you describe your furry traffic cop - running to the side he didn't want us to go on, and closing in so we'd return to the herd. But if you resisted, he wasn't above taking your jacket or your hand in a gentle mouth and giving a little tug to make his point clear. Never broke skin, though, never. Best nanny ever.
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  #23  
Old 12-31-2012, 10:55 PM
Battle Cat Battle Cat is offline
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Originally Posted by My Lord View Post
To do what? Be a police dog, a german sheperd hits all the right notes, but can he...

out-swim a Newfoundland?= NO
out-game a pitbull?= NO
out-muscle a Tosa inu?= NO
be more loyal than an akita?= NO
bark as much as a chiwawa?= NO
out-smart a jack russel=?=NO
be a better LGD than a Boer boel?=NO
out-run a grey hound?= NO
out sniff a bloodhound?= NO
have more prey drive then a Dogo argintine?=NO
-
But he can do all of what they do at 70% parality combined as his over-all attribute statistics, that is why non of them can exceed a German-shepherd in being a police dog, so the answer is as a "Police dog" the German shepered is unrivialed, consistancy revolves not only in performance but social propertys as well.

Every breed have there own unique strengths, so I must ask, do you mean hunting dog, fighting dog or guard dog....or do you mean just plain oh Police dog...because the german shepered has been bread that way, it will take a heck of a long time to replicate or make a better Police dog thats consistant as a the german sheperd breed were talking of hundreds of years selective breeding different breeds, traits an qualitys into his geno, which again can be lost in a few lines of back yard breeding designer dogs gone wrong.
Yeah and the German Shepard is also very intelligent more in learning then other dogs able to take orders, it is also used as a seeing eye dog as well.
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  #24  
Old 01-01-2013, 12:41 AM
Ibanez Ibanez is offline
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Are German Shepherds really the best police dogs bar none or there other breeds that could do as well?

Just curious.
Good question. More use of the Chihuahua could be beneficial for police forces.

e.g. A criminal barricaded in a house; it would make more tactical sense to release thirty hungry chihuahuas into the house instead of one german shepherd.


Last edited by Ibanez; 01-01-2013 at 12:44 AM..
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  #25  
Old 01-01-2013, 07:08 AM
HoneyBadgerDC HoneyBadgerDC is offline
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My son used to be a customs officer at the airport and has told me about a line of beagle/pitbull crosses a guy was developing for drug and other contraband that was doing some very impressive work. The amount of smells the could remember was well over a 100 various things.
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  #26  
Old 01-01-2013, 07:58 PM
phall0106 phall0106 is offline
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The responses to this thread are rather disturbing for me. You see, my mother recently acquired an un-neutered male German Shepard for free off of Craigslist. Why no, she's not sure of his background, but he sits when he's told and can shake your hand. Gee, no, she doesn't know anything about his parents, but he sure is pretty.

Her idea of exercising a dog is to walk him across the street to the mailbox and take him a couple of feet down the street on a potty run.

No, she's not planning on enrolling him in doggie training school, or teaching him anything, or even putting him to work. I don't have a dog, but I'm familiar enough with them to know they need significant exercise and a purpose, or they find a way to do both (and not always constructively).

I can easily see this turning into a Very Bad Thing. Looks like I have yet another excuse for not going to her house (post #24).

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  #27  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:12 PM
Shagnasty Shagnasty is offline
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Originally Posted by phall0106 View Post
The responses to this thread are rather disturbing for me. You see, my mother recently acquired an un-neutered male German Shepard for free off of Craigslist. Why no, she's not sure of his background, but he sits when he's told and can shake your hand. Gee, no, she doesn't know anything about his parents, but he sure is pretty.

Her idea of exercising a dog is to walk him across the street to the mailbox and take him a couple of feet down the street on a potty run.

No, she's not planning on enrolling him in doggie training school, or teaching him anything, or even putting him to work. I don't have a dog, but I'm familiar enough with them to know they need significant exercise and a purpose, or they find a way to do both (and not always constructively).

I can easily see this turning into a Very Bad Thing. Looks like I have yet another excuse for not going to her house (post #24).
Not necessarily. German Shepherds can be somewhat high energy but not all of them are. They make good seeing eye dogs for disabled people for example. They are certainly not a lap dog but some do well mostly indoors. That isn't a reason to not visit your mother. If the going gets tough with her, just tell her that her dog needs a walk. Take a Frisbee or a stick and you can both take your your aggressions out while having fun together. As long as German Shepherd is well-bred and trusts you, they can adapt to most situations and are great fun to have around.

Last edited by Shagnasty; 01-01-2013 at 09:15 PM..
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  #28  
Old 01-02-2013, 08:27 AM
Sailboat Sailboat is offline
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I'll second that. German Shepherd Dogs can be excellent family dogs -- 40 years ago, we had one who had been a mess when rescued from the Baltimore City Pound, but she recovered and went on to become a great childhood companion and mother hen for three kids and a pair of kittens.

In fact, speaking strictly of the dog issue, I'd advocate visiting your mother more often. A guarding breed, GSDs can be standoffish with, even suspicious of, strangers; but as soon as you're "in the pack" they will do anything for you. "Don't be a stranger" is literally good advice when dealing with them.
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Old 01-02-2013, 08:37 AM
Moonlitherial Moonlitherial is offline
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Every dog my family had when we were kids was at least half German Shepherd. There are a lot of pictures I can only tell which dog it is by how tall my brother and I are. They can definitely be wonderful family dogs and great with kids but I will second the don't be a stranger advice.

We generally ran as a pack, the kids in the neighborhood and the dogs and a couple of times a visiting aunt or uncle tried to take a kid in for dinner when they didn't want to and the dogs simply placed themselves between the kid and the adult and made it clear that continuing was a poor plan. A known adult came out and the kid was in huge trouble for resisting and making the dog think there was something going on.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:32 PM
My Lord My Lord is offline
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The responses to this thread are rather disturbing for me. You see, my mother recently acquired an un-neutered male German Shepard for free off of Craigslist. Why no, she's not sure of his background, but he sits when he's told and can shake your hand. Gee, no, she doesn't know anything about his parents, but he sure is pretty.

Her idea of exercising a dog is to walk him across the street to the mailbox and take him a couple of feet down the street on a potty run.

No, she's not planning on enrolling him in doggie training school, or teaching him anything, or even putting him to work. I don't have a dog, but I'm familiar enough with them to know they need significant exercise and a purpose, or they find a way to do both (and not always constructively).

I can easily see this turning into a Very Bad Thing. Looks like I have yet another excuse for not going to her house (post #24).
I dont think thats very thoughtful nor educated, does she live alone?
A dog will lift the burden of being alone, which helps eliminate or avoiding depression, (someone to talk to) keeps the mind sharp, and gives 60% more secerity from burglars to thiefs depending on its breed. What you need to do is socialize with that dog, depending what ages hes at just being around himand greeting him once an a while will confirm you are part of his/her pack.

As for the socializing, which she really doesent have to do unless shes a person who takes them to big doggie parks, dog shows ect, just freinds an family socialized on a minimun basis is fine, you dont want a dog that greets in a stranger, that completely destroys the line of the dog, being that they are a working breed if its not constant working it loses his purpose to have him greet in a stranger an dosent cover atleast that basic then thats even worse, now days all breeds are becomeing couch patatoes an live a crappy life of skyscrapper quarters (small apartments) ...which lets the dogs do absolutely nothing which leads to more moralitys of bad temperment understanding, which leads to more dogs in shelters an which leads to thousands an thousands of uthinized dogs.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:49 PM
misterW misterW is offline
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^ The mother probably won't turn the dog into Kujo, but that is a crime to provide so little exercise for a dog like a shepherd.
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Old 01-02-2013, 04:37 PM
My Lord My Lord is offline
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^ The mother probably won't turn the dog into Kujo, but that is a crime to provide so little exercise for a dog like a shepherd.
Well in this era skyscrappers house a few thousand apartment per building, an theres hundreds of thousands of skyscrappers, less land via farms...so people will have to do there part and locate dog parks or local woodlands to take there dogs...everything is becoming concrete now days which is not sustainable to wild life, which in terms dogs will depend on humans more than ever.

Not even vegatation is being sustained, why would man kind need so much road, so much pavement, nothing can grow out of a road so nothing can survive...I personally think dirt roads do just as well as a concrete roads, an theres just way to much cars which are responsable for around 200,000 animal killings per year...what a waste. Having little to do with dogs specifically, I think in terms of overall life in general, as in sustaining healthy eco system which in terms helps dogs...this should literaly be the starting change in how life should come back to...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMfSGt6rHos

Besides, you should only eat what "You" kill, to balance the life cycle of your eco system.

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  #33  
Old 01-02-2013, 09:04 PM
phall0106 phall0106 is offline
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Not necessarily. German Shepherds can be somewhat high energy but not all of them are. They make good seeing eye dogs for disabled people for example. They are certainly not a lap dog but some do well mostly indoors. That isn't a reason to not visit your mother. If the going gets tough with her, just tell her that her dog needs a walk. Take a Frisbee or a stick and you can both take your your aggressions out while having fun together. As long as German Shepherd is well-bred and trusts you, they can adapt to most situations and are great fun to have around.
I think I'm more worried about a dog that has limited social interactions and has basically my mother as a companion (and is exposed to very few other people or situations that he becomes possessive of her). I have no desire to have a dog come after me because I hugged my mother goodbye and he saw it as a sign of aggression towards her.

But then, perhaps I'm just rationalizing another excuse not to go to my mother's house...

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  #34  
Old 01-02-2013, 09:46 PM
Shagnasty Shagnasty is offline
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I think I'm more worried about a dog that has limited social interactions and has basically my mother as a companion (and is exposed to very few other people or situations that he becomes possessive of her). I have no desire to have a dog come after me because I hugged my mother goodbye and he saw it as a sign of aggression towards her.

But then, perhaps I'm just rationalizing another excuse not to go to my mother's house...
You are showing a little unwarranted fear there. I can't help you with mother situation but I can tell you that the vast majority of German Shepherds will never hurt a person even if they do seem protective with their owners. The key to most of them is to never show fear even if they are showing signs of protection for their owner. They are guard dogs and they can sometimes use that to intimidate people. Most are friendly to everyone as long as their owner is around however.

You just have to establish a friendship with them like you would any other dog except they are smarter and bigger than most so just let him get know you and play with him. It usually only takes a few minutes to establish the basis of trust and they are almost always fine after that forever. I have met exactly one German Shepherd out of hundreds in my life that I was scared and that was only because he was poorly bred and an abused rescue. Even with him, he just jumped on me one too may times and snarled and I punched him the face as hard as I could and we never had any problems after that.

They are really sweet and smart dogs in general. You just can't let them intimidate you because they respond negatively to that.

Last edited by Shagnasty; 01-02-2013 at 09:49 PM..
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Old 01-03-2013, 05:00 AM
phall0106 phall0106 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagnasty View Post
Even with him, he just jumped on me one too may times and snarled and I punched him the face as hard as I could and we never had any problems after that.
Punch him in the face. Got it.







I jest, I jest.

Lots of good advice and it almost makes me want a dog. Almost.
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