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  #851  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:22 PM
Mr Downtown Mr Downtown is offline
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Loved Carson with Baby Sybil.

Perhaps it's Matthew, rather than Tom, who's found himself on a bit of a learning curve.
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  #852  
Old 02-17-2013, 11:42 PM
SaharaTea SaharaTea is offline
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Originally Posted by Sattua View Post
In that case the actor's a prick, and a stupid one at that. Pursue other acting opportunities? Like what? He's never getting another regular TV show part after this shenanigan.
He's doing a Broadway play right now, and he's said he doesn't care if he's never part of anything as big as Downton again. I don't blame him for wanting to do other things. IMO the writing has been awful for quite a while.
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  #853  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:05 AM
Bridget Burke Bridget Burke is offline
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Dan Stevens is also interested in writing. So the crappy writing of series 2 probably did more to convince him to leave than dreams of mega-stardom.

He fulfilled his three-year contract and let Fellowes know he wanted to go before series 3 began. The departure could have been written better--but I bet they were trying to convince Stevens to stay until the last minute.
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  #854  
Old 02-18-2013, 01:12 AM
hajario hajario is offline
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That was massively fucked up.
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  #855  
Old 02-18-2013, 01:24 AM
Rhiannon8404 Rhiannon8404 is offline
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That was massively fucked up.
Agreed!

It was such a wonderful episode. So much happy, good stuff happened. I said to Suburban Plankton as they were showing Matthew so happy driving home, "I bet he crashes," but I didn't really think he would die. I just thought he'd be all banged up.
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  #856  
Old 02-18-2013, 01:29 AM
hajario hajario is offline
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At least have him die a hero or something. That was pointless.
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  #857  
Old 02-18-2013, 03:27 AM
amarinth amarinth is offline
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Originally Posted by Ellen Cherry View Post
Reproduction certainly is dangerous if you're a Crawley.
It is very rare for a father to die in childbirth...


I didn't like the episode, even before that point. It just seemed a bit messy and very ham handed. Some of that was due to the fact that he had to move pieces around for next season (Matthew and Rose), but some was just poor storytelling. Not to say that there weren't nice moments, but it lacked something as a whole
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  #858  
Old 02-18-2013, 08:28 AM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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Rumor is that next year Violet will reveal that Robert has a younger brother, Ruprecht, whom she swapped for her daughter because "two sons was just common in those days", but now he's back and wants to be Robert's second in line. He will be played by either Sacha Baron Cohen, who's already trying out wacky accents for the character, or Steve Buscemi as Nucky Thompson as Violet's long lost heir.
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  #859  
Old 02-18-2013, 08:34 AM
Gestalt Gestalt is offline
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Re: Shrimpie and his wife's feuding--I realize that it was very difficult to get a divorce in those days, but as mentioned above, wouldn't "upper-class morality" at least allow them both to have lots of affairs on the side? It seems that being married to someone you didn't like would be a lot more tolerable if you had another significant other (or several significant others) to spend time with.

Also, Violet keeps talking about how divorce is just not done among the aristocracy, ("there are no unhappy marriages among our kind of people," "when our people marry, it's for life," etc) but weren't divorces rare everywhere? What's so special about the aristocracy?
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  #860  
Old 02-18-2013, 08:40 AM
Sitnam Sitnam is offline
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Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
Also, Violet keeps talking about how divorce is just not done among the aristocracy, ("there are no unhappy marriages among our kind of people," "when our people marry, it's for life," etc) but weren't divorces rare everywhere? What's so special about the aristocracy?
The scandal carries to the family name, some families pride themselves on that name more than others I'd imagine.
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  #861  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:24 AM
Bridget Burke Bridget Burke is offline
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Officially, adultery was the only ground for divorce. Not insanity, drunkenness or abuse. Forget "incompatibility." On occasion, when both spouses wanted out, the man would cook up a drama with a "rent a floozy" so they could both escape--but it was illegal & still left a cloud over the divorced couple. If things were bad, they could legally separate. Or just maintain the usual separate bedrooms & appear together in public....

The Marlborough divorce was mentioned--Consuelo Vanderbilt had been forced into marriage with the Duke of Marlborough; he needed the Vanderbilt fortune to keep Blenheim Castle from falling down. The marriage made both of them wretchedly unhappy. They divorced & she remarried for love; he remarried but remained unhappy. Both of them remained wealthy; he remained a Duke. if he'd been trying for a career, he would have been in trouble.

Especially after losing his estate, Shrimpy needed his career. So, no divorce. A string of lovers doesn't make up for living with someone who detests you. Besides, I don't see possible lovers lined up to service his wife....

Last edited by Bridget Burke; 02-18-2013 at 09:25 AM..
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  #862  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:36 AM
Mattie Blue Mattie Blue is offline
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Please forgive this slight hijack, but who is the actress playing Lady Susan, Shrimpy's unhappy wife? I know I have seen her before in something, but I can't place her.
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  #863  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:40 AM
IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is offline
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Help me out- does Matthew's death affect the inheritance? Will it automatically go to Mary now (through their son) since they married? Since he technically never inherited (Robert is alive) can someone claim to be the heir?

Last edited by IvoryTowerDenizen; 02-18-2013 at 09:41 AM..
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  #864  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:47 AM
Jennyrosity Jennyrosity is offline
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Matthew and Mary's baby is now the new heir, as she had a boy.
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  #865  
Old 02-18-2013, 09:52 AM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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Originally Posted by Jennyrosity View Post
Matthew and Mary's baby is now the new heir, as she had a boy.
He's the heir and there can be no spare, which means nobody can breathe for the next 20-something years until he weds and produces sons. If they're smart they'll marry him off at 16 to a hyperfertile 25 year old wealthy widow who's had 5 healthy children, to ensure highest likelihood of procreation, otherwise whatever's left of Downton goes to 8th cousin Ludovic "Bubba" Crawley-Patel of Yellowknife. Lady Edith promptly falls for Ludovic, in spite of the fact he is 72 years old, married, and a microcephalic. (Provided that she doesn't first become Viscountess Glass in honor of the aristocratic husband George, Viscount Glass, that nobody has ever met, for she is truly Jan Brady raised to the peerage.)

Last edited by Sampiro; 02-18-2013 at 09:57 AM..
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  #866  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:19 AM
IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is offline
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Originally Posted by Sampiro View Post
He's the heir and there can be no spare, which means nobody can breathe for the next 20-something years until he weds and produces sons. If they're smart they'll marry him off at 16 to a hyperfertile 25 year old wealthy widow who's had 5 healthy children, to ensure highest likelihood of procreation, otherwise whatever's left of Downton goes to 8th cousin Ludovic "Bubba" Crawley-Patel of Yellowknife. Lady Edith promptly falls for Ludovic, in spite of the fact he is 72 years old, married, and a microcephalic. (Provided that she doesn't first become Viscountess Glass in honor of the aristocratic husband George, Viscount Glass, that nobody has ever met, for she is truly Jan Brady raised to the peerage.)
Wow. All that cause Matthew wanted out of his contract. The universe sure is mysterious.
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  #867  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:20 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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Okay now that you Yanks have seen it I can finally comment.

Why does everyone think that the manner of handling Thoma's homosexuality was "too modern". It seemed precisely how an upper class house of that time would handle a situation like that.

Other points re Bates release. At that time and until about 2 decades ago, the Home Secretary had the power to vacate criminal convictions and that it what happened.
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  #868  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:34 AM
AuntiePam AuntiePam is offline
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Originally Posted by Mattie Blue View Post
Please forgive this slight hijack, but who is the actress playing Lady Susan, Shrimpy's unhappy wife? I know I have seen her before in something, but I can't place her.
Phoebe Nichols -- IMDB page

She looked familiar to me too but I don't recall seeing anything on her credits list. She reminded me of Mrs. Kravitz from Bewitched.
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  #869  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:43 AM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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I knew about the ending because it was spoiled in comments (that were supposed to be spoiler free) over Christmas, and I'm actually kind of glad I did know as it lessened the melodrama. I'm hoping Dan Stevens will take this opportunity to broaden his exposure in a role that allows copious nudity.

Mary has had moments of classist bitch before now, but I'm wondering if with Matthew gone she'll become completely unbearable.
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  #870  
Old 02-18-2013, 10:55 AM
brownMouse brownMouse is offline
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Yup, I think the show's jumped the shark. Not cuz of Matthew -- I had heard someone wanted out of the show and so I expected another death, just didn't know who or how -- but this Rose joining the household smells like a shark. I can just see promos for the next season: "... and flirty, flappy Rose comes home to Downton! Hijynx ensues!" I just really don't think I'm interested in any of it.

Funny how, as I was watching, every sidelong glance, every scene with a gun, made me think "oh oh, Something's gonna happen ...." Fellowes has me well trained.

Sigh, I dunno. Sort of glad this was the last episode, it was just starting to get a little tedious. Well, I have a year to get over it and see if I'm interested again.
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  #871  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:02 AM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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Even though it would make Robert and Cora 60-somethings and Violet pushing 90, I kind of hope they F-Fwd a few years for the start of the next season and go ahead and take on the Depression.
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  #872  
Old 02-18-2013, 11:57 AM
Gestalt Gestalt is offline
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I understand that Matthew's son is the heir because he is Lord Grantham's grandson and closest male relative. However, if Matthew had married Lavinia and they had had a son and Matthew died before Lord Grantham did, then Matthew's son would not be heir to the estate, correct?
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  #873  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:01 PM
IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is offline
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Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
I understand that Matthew's son is the heir because he is Lord Grantham's grandson and closest male relative. However, if Matthew had married Lavinia and they had had a son and Matthew died before Lord Grantham did, then Matthew's son would not be heir to the estate, correct?
Why? In each case he's the heir, right? I'm not sure the fact he married Mary makes a difference. Unless I'm misunderstanding, of course...
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  #874  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:03 PM
Gestalt Gestalt is offline
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I thought that he was the presumptive heir, and so his lineage was not in line to inherit unless he became the actual Lord Grantham. For instance, if he had died when he did without having a son, then the next-in-succession would be Lord Grantham's next male relative, not Matthew's next male relative, or so I thought.

Last edited by Gestalt; 02-18-2013 at 12:05 PM..
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  #875  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:07 PM
IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is offline
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Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
I thought that he was the presumptive heir, and so his lineage was not in line to inherit unless he became the actual Lord Grantham. For instance, if he had died when he did without having a son, then the next-in-succession would be Lord Grantham's next male relative, not Matthew's next male relative, or so I thought.
So, through Mary the baby is the closest male relative to Robert? I see- that is a difference.
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  #876  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:15 PM
Toucanna Toucanna is offline
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Baby Boy Crawley is not the heir (presumptive) because he is Robert's grandson but, because he is Robert's third-cousin-X-times removed.

I'll have to go back to the scene where Matthew explains to Martha his relationship to Robert in order to determine how many times removed Baby Boy Crawley is from Robert.
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  #877  
Old 02-18-2013, 12:18 PM
Gestalt Gestalt is offline
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Ah, gotcha, cause the line can only go through men, and Isobel's husband (and Matthew's father and the baby's grandfather) was distantly related through male relatives to Lord Grantham.
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  #878  
Old 02-18-2013, 01:14 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sampiro View Post
He's the heir and there can be no spare, which means nobody can breathe for the next 20-something years until he weds and produces sons...
Entail was abolished in 1925, and it might not even apply now since Cora's dowry is gone and has been replaced with Matthew's inheirtance. So they won't have to worry about the estate going to an even more distant relative anymore; just the title.

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Originally Posted by Gestalt View Post
Ah, gotcha, cause the line can only go through men, and Isobel's husband (and Matthew's father and the baby's grandfather) was distantly related through male relatives to Lord Grantham.
Right, unlike the Crown very few English & British peerages can pass thru the female line. Scottish peerages are an exception; that's why Shrimpie's grandmother was Countess of Newtonmore in her own right. Master Crawley is still only the heir presumptive since Robert count theoratically remarry and have a son (also peerage law presumes a woman is capable of having children regardless of her age). I wonder if Susan's mother is Violet's sister Roberta; the one who loaded the guns at Lucknow.

Personally I'm looking forward to next season. Especially since I heard that...

SPOILER:
...Fellowes want's to explore race relations somehow; possibly by having the Granthams host a visiting Indian prince & his entourage. It'd certainly make for some interesting dinner table talk; especially with Tom.

Last edited by alphaboi867; 02-18-2013 at 01:17 PM..
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  #879  
Old 02-18-2013, 01:24 PM
freckafree freckafree is online now
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Phoebe Nichols -- IMDB page

She looked familiar to me too but I don't recall seeing anything on her credits list. She reminded me of Mrs. Kravitz from Bewitched.
She reminded me of a grumpy-looking Mary Steenburgen.
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  #880  
Old 02-18-2013, 01:31 PM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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I'll have to go back to the scene where Matthew explains to Martha his relationship to Robert in order to determine how many times removed Baby Boy Crawley is from Robert.
They've referred to him as a third cousin before (you share a g-g-grandfather with your third cousin), though when American Grandma visited he said that his great-great-grandfather was a younger son of an Earl. Sounds like it might be more of a third-cousin once removed. Or, it could be that Robert had a grandfather or other ancestor who, like Matthew, inherited the title other than from their own father due to the previous Earl not having a son.

Last edited by Sampiro; 02-18-2013 at 01:34 PM..
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  #881  
Old 02-18-2013, 01:33 PM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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And Mary should devote her energies next season to finding her baby a rich stepfather.
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  #882  
Old 02-18-2013, 01:50 PM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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Sampiro Matthew did not inherit the title, he was never Earl Grantham. His titles from birth to death were

Master Matthew Crawley
Mr Matthew Crawley
2nd Lt Matthew Crawley
Lt Matthew Crawley
Capt Matthew Crawley
Matthew Crawley Esq
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  #883  
Old 02-18-2013, 01:57 PM
Sattua Sattua is offline
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Please forgive this slight hijack, but who is the actress playing Lady Susan, Shrimpy's unhappy wife? I know I have seen her before in something, but I can't place her.
Persuasion and Brideshead Revisited are the two credits that stand out to me.
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  #884  
Old 02-18-2013, 02:48 PM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
Sampiro Matthew did not inherit the title, he was never Earl Grantham. His titles from birth to death were

Master Matthew Crawley
Mr Matthew Crawley
2nd Lt Matthew Crawley
Lt Matthew Crawley
Capt Matthew Crawley
Matthew Crawley Esq
No, but he was next in line is the point; it's possible Robert's not the son of Earl who was the son of the Earl who was the son of the Earl, etc., but had an ancestor who, like Matthew, came to be the heir apparent indirectly rather than being the son of the predecessor. Otherwise it would be difficult for him to be both the great-great-great-grandson of an Earl and Robert's third cousin, which was the point of the post.
All conjecture anyway, of course, unless Fellowes releases the Crawley genealogy.

Last edited by Sampiro; 02-18-2013 at 02:50 PM..
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  #885  
Old 02-18-2013, 02:58 PM
freckafree freckafree is online now
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What was the convention among servants for addressing servants of guests? It seemed like Shrimpie's servants called all of the Crawley servants Mr. and Miss Grantham. And were the Crawley servants referring to their hosts' servants as Mr. and Miss Flintshire?
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  #886  
Old 02-18-2013, 03:06 PM
Mattie Blue Mattie Blue is offline
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Phoebe Nichols -- IMDB page

She looked familiar to me too but I don't recall seeing anything on her credits list. She reminded me of Mrs. Kravitz from Bewitched.
Persuasion! That's it. 1995 movie version with Amanda Root and Ciaran Hinds. She was the snobby older sister Elizabeth Elliot. Her face has filled out a bit in 17 years. Thanks Auntie Pam.
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  #887  
Old 02-18-2013, 03:16 PM
Dinsdale Dinsdale is offline
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The loss of Matthew really hurts the show, IMO, for a couple of reasons. That character was SO essential to the entire dynamic- without which the individual characters are far less interesting. Also, he was by far the most significant male "upstairs" character of generation. Without him there is a huge hole in male characters between the lord and the baby. Just makes things quite "unbalanced" IMO.
I'd been finding myself less interested this year- suspect I will become moreso next. Heck, I'll still probably waste an hour or so with it on convenient Sunday nights, but I sure don''t see making a point of watching it.
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  #888  
Old 02-18-2013, 03:18 PM
Shodan Shodan is offline
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What the difference between the heir apparent and the presumptive heir? Is there one?

Regards,
Shodan
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  #889  
Old 02-18-2013, 03:31 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
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What was the convention among servants for addressing servants of guests? It seemed like Shrimpie's servants called all of the Crawley servants Mr. and Miss Grantham. And were the Crawley servants referring to their hosts' servants as Mr. and Miss Flintshire?
Visiting servants were addressed by their employer's name and took precedence from them. If the Flintshires visited Downton then yes, Shrimpie's vale and Susan's maid would be addresed like that. The "host servants" keep their own names. I wonder how they would've address Violet's lady's maid? "Miss Dowager Grantham"? One of the woman at the table had to have been her since there's no way Violet would travel without a maid.

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Originally Posted by Shodan View Post
What the difference between the heir apparent and the presumptive heir? Is there one?

Regards,
Shodan
An heir presumptive can be displaced by the birth of someone with a stronger claim to the title; an heir apparent cannot. Prince Charles is his mother's heir apparent because he's her eldest son and even she were somehow able to have another child it could not displace him. By contrast she was only her father's heiress presumptive since if her parents had a son he'd displace her.
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  #890  
Old 02-18-2013, 03:39 PM
PunditLisa PunditLisa is offline
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I rewatched Gosford Park this past weekend so I learned all about calling servant by their master's surname.

There was also a Lavinia in that show. Wonder who Fellowes knew by that name.

I can't believe we have another "E" name to keep track of. Edith, Ethel and now Enid!
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  #891  
Old 02-18-2013, 03:49 PM
Rhiannon8404 Rhiannon8404 is offline
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Originally Posted by PunditLisa View Post
I can't believe we have another "E" name to keep track of. Edith, Ethel and now Enid!
I was thinking this at first, too. Why all the "E" names? But since she's been shown the door, I guess we don't have to worry about her.
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  #892  
Old 02-18-2013, 03:50 PM
SaharaTea SaharaTea is offline
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The A.V. Club has a good synopsis of why Matthew's sudden death was such a cheap shot - not because the actor wanted to leave, but because of the shitty way it was written.

I'm pretty much done with this show. Fellowes has been selling us the "Matthew + Mary = soulmates" stuff for three seasons. I can't see myself caring about whatever new love interest they introduce for her.
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  #893  
Old 02-18-2013, 03:52 PM
IvoryTowerDenizen IvoryTowerDenizen is offline
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I was thinking this at first, too. Why all the "E" names? But since she's been shown the door, I guess we don't have to worry about her.
I thought the new maid was Edna. No?
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  #894  
Old 02-18-2013, 04:04 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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Originally Posted by AuntiePam View Post
Phoebe Nichols -- IMDB page

She looked familiar to me too but I don't recall seeing anything on her credits list. She reminded me of Mrs. Kravitz from Bewitched.
Oh my GOD! She was the baby sister, Cordelia Flyte, in Brideshead Revisited. I can't believe it's her. Little Cordelia!
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  #895  
Old 02-18-2013, 04:07 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
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What the difference between the heir apparent and the presumptive heir? Is there one?
If Robert had fathered a legitimate son at any time before his own death, then the son would displace Matthew as heir. That makes Matthew an heir presumptive, not an heir apparent. An heir apparent can't be displaced by the birth of a new heir.

But, yes, Matthew's son is Robert's heir because he is Matthew's son, not because he is Robert's grandson.
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  #896  
Old 02-18-2013, 04:14 PM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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I think next season it will be revealed that Grandma Levinson is a precursor to the Bene Gesserits who has plotted Cora's breeding with Anglo aristocracy (producing only daughters in spite of her husband's pleas), who then oversaw the sinking of the Titanic to remove the inferior breeding stock and arranged for the mating to Matthew, only to have him had killed in a moment of fury when Mary arrogantly and selfishly defied orders and produced a boy. The only real mystery is whether Violet is an ally or an enemy in the plot.

At least Matthew didn't shaken his abdomen and fall to the earth dead after mating like other drones have done. That must have spared Mary a little bit of trauma (especially after her first mate died) and the servants some grody cleanup.

Last edited by Sampiro; 02-18-2013 at 04:15 PM..
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  #897  
Old 02-18-2013, 04:18 PM
StGermain StGermain is offline
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And now poor Molesly again has no one to dress.

StG
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  #898  
Old 02-18-2013, 04:19 PM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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And now poor Molesly again has no one to dress.

StG
Unless he goes Norman Bates.

Hmm. If Anna and Bates have a son...
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  #899  
Old 02-18-2013, 04:22 PM
alphaboi867 alphaboi867 is offline
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Originally Posted by StGermain View Post
And now poor Molesly again has no one to dress.

StG
Eh, he can always go back to being Mrs Crawley's butler. Although she has downsized her staff since season 1 when she made a big deal about how they needed a butler while Mathew was fining with getting by with Mrs Bird & maid they already had. Then Mosley left, the maid vanished, and Mrs Bird quit. I doubt he cooks so she'll need a new cook-housekeeper.
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  #900  
Old 02-18-2013, 04:32 PM
Sampiro Sampiro is offline
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Isobel presumably has some of the "invisible" servants like the ones mentioned at Downton (more of whom were visible than usual last night, incidentally).

Apropos to nothing under discussion, but Jim Carter and Imelda Staunton look so darned cute together. (With their daughter, who apparently is taking more after dad heightwise.)
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