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  #1  
Old 07-05-2013, 01:49 AM
drewtwo99 drewtwo99 is offline
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Which countries suffer the most from being split up by language?

The question I'm trying to ask is subjective and a bit confusing, but I'll try to explain.

I am aware of certain countries, especially African, where the official language of government is not the language spoken by the vast majority of the populace.

I am also aware of countries where multiple languages are spoken but people are not necessarily bi or trilingual. For example, one community in switzerland may speak german, another may speak french, or whatever, with not many people being able to speak both.

So there are countries where the population is kind of divided against eachother, or against them and the government itself, by virtue of the fact that they have multiple languages.

My question is, which countries have it the worst? Is there a country were less than 5% of the population speaks the official language of government, thus vastly reducing anyone's ability to actively and accurately participate in governance? Are there countries where there are 4 or 5 commonly spoken languages in geographically distinct areas without many people being able to speak or understand the languages of different areas of the country?

For example, I would rank the US very, very low on this list. Sure there are some areas of big cities where I might have trouble communicating (like an asian market or a hispanic area), but pretty much everywhere English is spoken, and while it is not an official language of government, it is the de facto language that our government uses, that our constitution is written in, etc. So the US would be way down low on the list of countries divided by language.

Last edited by drewtwo99; 07-05-2013 at 01:50 AM..
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  #2  
Old 07-05-2013, 02:10 AM
guizot guizot is offline
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Originally Posted by drewtwo99 View Post
. . . divided against each other, or against them and the government itself, by virtue of the fact that they have multiple languages. . .
Can you at least give an example of this, and when you do, how can you know that it is the language alone that causes the division?
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Old 07-05-2013, 02:14 AM
David H Singanas David H Singanas is offline
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Probably India which they call "Bharat".
Look at their paper currency. At least 26 languages are represented for almost
one billion people.
Hindi is the most common language. But English, thanks to the old British Empire, is the
language which combines and unifies the nation politically.
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  #4  
Old 07-05-2013, 02:25 AM
drewtwo99 drewtwo99 is offline
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I cannot give examples because I'm asking which are the worst and how bad off are they. I only know enough to know that there are some countries with more language division than I'm used to in the US, but I don't know how bad it can be, and that's what I'm trying to find out.

India is one that was on my radar but I know precioiusly little about. So in India, when the government meets and such they all speak English, and the constitution and whatnot is in English, but the vast majority of the population does not speak English, and it also suffers from having 26 spoken languages? That sounds really bad. Makes one wonder how it is even all one country.
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Old 07-05-2013, 04:07 AM
SanVito SanVito is offline
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Belgium? I think they are pretty equally divided between French and Flemish, with the Flemish speakers traditionally holding political power. I remember reading that their current PM is the first French speaker in about 30 years to hold that office.

(he's also Europe's only openly gay leader. Yay!)
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Old 07-05-2013, 04:58 AM
ZoNi ZoNi is offline
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IMHO, it is Papua New Guinea.

From Wikipedia:
"Papua New Guinea is one of the most heterogeneous nations in the world. There are hundreds of ethnic groups indigenous to Papua New Guinea/.../ Papua New Guinea has more languages than any other country, with over 820 indigenous languages, representing twelve percent of the world's total, but most have fewer than 1,000 speakers./.../ English is an official language and is the language of government and the education system, but it is not widely spoken."

On the other hand, there is another interesting example It is Bosnia and Hercegovina, with 3 official languages - Bosniak, Serbian and Croatian. Speakers of any of those languages insists that (s)he only speak his language, not any of another two - although those 3 languages are almost the same
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:09 AM
JoseB JoseB is offline
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Originally Posted by SanVito View Post
Belgium? I think they are pretty equally divided between French and Flemish, with the Flemish speakers traditionally holding political power. I remember reading that their current PM is the first French speaker in about 30 years to hold that office.

(he's also Europe's only openly gay leader. Yay!)
<hijack>How could you forget Jóhanna Sigurðardóttir, prime minister of Iceland until May 23 of this year, and who became prime minister on February 1st 2009, more than two years before Elio di Rupo (who only became prime minister of Belgium on December 6, 2011)?

Of course, at the moment, right now, he is the only one, but he was neither unique, nor the first </hijack>

To be on topic -- Until 1976, I think that the situation in Greece could be considered to be like what the OP asks about... The official language of Greece was the "Katharevousa" variant of Greek, a kind of "purified" Greek language developed by scholars during the 19th century which tried to "purge" non-Greek elements from the language and which harked back to Ancient Greek (using polytonic accents and everything).

It was so astonishingly different from what the people spoke in their everyday lives ("Dimotiki" Greek) that they could be said to be different languages. There are stories of teachers at schools (especially in rural districts) who gave their classes in Katharevousa and the pupils could not understand their teacher, and it seems that there were many people who were unable to understand newspapers, government documents or judicial proceedings (all of them written in or carried out in Katharevousa).

The situation was finally resolved in 1976 when Dimotiki was made the official language in Greece, leaving Katharevousa obsolete.

Last edited by JoseB; 07-05-2013 at 05:14 AM..
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Old 07-05-2013, 12:15 PM
drewtwo99 drewtwo99 is offline
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That story about Greece is very interesting! Thanks for sharing.
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  #9  
Old 07-05-2013, 12:54 PM
Cat Whisperer Cat Whisperer is offline
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Canada has a pretty divisive language problem. In fact, the province with the second largest population keeps voting on whether to secede from Canada over it.
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Old 07-05-2013, 04:19 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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And yet, Canada has survived for 143 years, one of the oldest, continuously operating constitutions in the world, with one of the strongest economies in recent years, democratic governments, and strongly entrenched rule of law. The language issue is always present, but in the day-to-day life of individuals, it does not have a great presence or problem. The various accommodations that have been made throughout the country's history on the language issue have kept the country together and fashioned a political and social culture of compromise and tolerance that works very well as a model for multi-lingual countries.
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Old 07-05-2013, 04:26 PM
EmilyG EmilyG is offline
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Originally Posted by Cat Whisperer View Post
Canada has a pretty divisive language problem. In fact, the province with the second largest population keeps voting on whether to secede from Canada over it.
Agreed. I was going into this thread to post the answer of Canada, full stop. And since I live in the province Cat Whisperer mentioned, it's a reality I live with every day.

I wish we could all just live in peace.
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Old 07-05-2013, 04:52 PM
JustinC JustinC is offline
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Originally Posted by ZoNi View Post
IMHO, it is Papua New Guinea.

From Wikipedia:
"Papua New Guinea is one of the most heterogeneous nations in the world. There are hundreds of ethnic groups indigenous to Papua New Guinea/.../ Papua New Guinea has more languages than any other country, with over 820 indigenous languages, representing twelve percent of the world's total, but most have fewer than 1,000 speakers./.../ English is an official language and is the language of government and the education system, but it is not widely spoken."

On the other hand, there is another interesting example It is Bosnia and Hercegovina, with 3 official languages - Bosniak, Serbian and Croatian. Speakers of any of those languages insists that (s)he only speak his language, not any of another two - although those 3 languages are almost the same
PNG was my first thought. A friend lived there for a number of years; lots of violence between the indigenous groups; armed guards a must if you're an expat; people in the streets armed with bush-knives; even still some cannibalism; women raped, killed or maimed by husbands, brothers and fathers after they're accused of being a witch. It's basically the most dangerous 'peacetime' region on the planet.
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:07 PM
vontsira vontsira is offline
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PNG was my first thought. A friend lived there for a number of years; lots of violence between the indigenous groups; armed guards a must if you're an expat; people in the streets armed with bush-knives; even still some cannibalism; women raped, killed or maimed by husbands, brothers and fathers after they're accused of being a witch. It's basically the most dangerous 'peacetime' region on the planet.
Tourism not a big earner for PNG, I take it? Pity: it strikes me as a fascinating place in many good ways -- co-existing with "the above".
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  #14  
Old 07-05-2013, 05:09 PM
drewtwo99 drewtwo99 is offline
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Kind of looks like PNG is a single nation in name only. Ostensibly the national government controls the entire country, but there are so many isolated local cultures that probably effectively just govern themselves and have little to no contact with the outside world. Is that about right?
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Old 07-05-2013, 05:31 PM
Ibanez Ibanez is offline
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Originally Posted by Northern Piper View Post
And yet, Canada has survived for 143 years, one of the oldest, continuously operating constitutions in the world, with one of the strongest economies in recent years, democratic governments, and strongly entrenched rule of law. The language issue is always present, but in the day-to-day life of individuals, it does not have a great presence or problem. <snip>
You're obviously not from the Ottawa area.
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  #16  
Old 07-05-2013, 06:06 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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Originally Posted by EmilyG View Post
Agreed. I was going into this thread to post the answer of Canada, full stop. And since I live in the province Cat Whisperer mentioned, it's a reality I live with every day.

I wish we could all just live in peace.
And yet, we do live in peace.

The FLQ is dead. The last person who died over the language issue was Pierre LaPorte, in 1970. The federal government ensures that all Canadians can receive services from the federal government in either official language. Unilingual individuals of either official language can and do get elected to the federal Parliament, from Quebec and from other provinces. Parliament accommodates unilingual members as well as bilingual members. The last time we had a federal government radically split on the linguistic issue was in 1917; and since we no longer belong to the British Empire and imperialism is long dead, that type of split will simply not happen again.

The provinces are required to provide minority language education, in both Quebec and the other provinces. In Quebec, both languages are used in the National Assembly and in the Courts, and all laws are passed in both languages. There is a vibrant anglophone minority community in Quebec, and there are strong francophone minority communities in the other provinces.

True, we have issues, but compare our situation to some of the nations mentioned by other posters: Belgium, which went without an effective government for close to a year, because the language communities couldn't agree; Papua New Guinea; the Greek example.

Canada works.
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:08 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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You're obviously not from the Ottawa area.
Not currently, but I have been.
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  #18  
Old 07-05-2013, 06:35 PM
Ibanez Ibanez is offline
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Originally Posted by EmilyG View Post
Agreed. I was going into this thread to post the answer of Canada, full stop. And since I live in the province Cat Whisperer mentioned, it's a reality I live with every day.

I wish we could all just live in peace.
Not if this guy becomes your new mayor. Another case of our shit doesn't stink.
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Old 07-05-2013, 06:51 PM
RealityChuck RealityChuck is offline
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I can answer the opposite question: what country with multiple languages benefits the most under their setup. The answer is Namibia.

Nambia's official language is English, which is only spoken natively by less than 1% of the population. This had nothing to do with colonialism: the choice was made after Namibia attained independence. The most widespread language are the Oshiwambo dialects, but there are several languages that compete with it. Afrikaans and German were the language of the white settlers, who were not well liked for apartheid.

When the country became independent, English was chosen for three reasons:

1. It's the language on international trade.
2. It was popularized by the SWAPO Party, which led the country to independence.
3. It wasn't the language of any particular ethnic group, so no group had an advantage.

Namibians are taught in English and all official newspapers use it, but people speak their native language at home. The choice of English was a unifying force for the country.
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  #20  
Old 07-05-2013, 08:53 PM
guizot guizot is offline
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Originally Posted by JustinC View Post
PNG was my first thought. . . lots of violence between the indigenous groups; . . . It's basically the most dangerous 'peacetime' region on the planet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by drewtwo99 View Post
Ostensibly the national government controls the entire country, but there are so many isolated local cultures that probably effectively just govern themselves and have little to no contact with the outside world.
Right but my question in post #2 still stands: How can you say it's the language difference itself--alone--that is the cause of the divisions? How do you know that it's causation rather than just correlation?
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  #21  
Old 07-06-2013, 04:10 PM
Damfino Damfino is offline
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Originally Posted by David H Singanas View Post
Probably India which they call "Bharat".
Look at their paper currency. At least 26 languages are represented for almost
one billion people.
Hindi is the most common language. But English, thanks to the old British Empire, is the
language which combines and unifies the nation politically.
In the paper currency I have there are fifteen languages plus English . These are the official languages of the Constitution. However there are many other languages used locally in different regions.
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  #22  
Old 07-07-2013, 02:13 PM
Hari Seldon Hari Seldon is offline
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Originally Posted by EmilyG View Post
Agreed. I was going into this thread to post the answer of Canada, full stop. And since I live in the province Cat Whisperer mentioned, it's a reality I live with every day.

I wish we could all just live in peace.
Me too. And Quebec seems on the point of passing a law that will end bilingual services in the provincial and which, according to one report, will end the practice of publishing tax forms in English. That probably violates the constitution (which Quebec never ratified), but really seems designed mainly to create a confrontation in order to grow separatist sentiment. But I think Belgium has it worse.

I have lived for nearly three years in Switzerland and there really didn't seem to be language problems there. In fact, nearly half that time, I was in the bilingual canton (Fribourg/Freiburg) and I had the impression that most people (in the city, at least) were bilingual.
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Old 07-07-2013, 02:30 PM
Cat Whisperer Cat Whisperer is offline
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Me too. And Quebec seems on the point of passing a law that will end bilingual services in the provincial and which, according to one report, will end the practice of publishing tax forms in English. That probably violates the constitution (which Quebec never ratified), but really seems designed mainly to create a confrontation in order to grow separatist sentiment.<snip>
That doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Won't it cause another mass exodus of businesses that don't want to operate under those conditions, leading to reduced economic health?
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  #24  
Old 07-08-2013, 12:08 AM
Nava Nava is online now
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If they're reasoning like the independentist Catalans, then they're thinking, and sometimes saying "pfaugh, we don't need their business anyway!"
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Old 07-08-2013, 02:40 AM
Batistuta Batistuta is offline
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I'm not sure if Norway can be described as being 'split up', but their language situation is rather confusing.

There is one official language spoken nationally - Norwegian. But there are essentially two written forms of the language.

Bokmål is the traditional form, very similar to Danish. It is used by around 80% of the population if I'm not mistaken. On the other hand you have Nynorsk, which was devised as a way to eliminate traces of Danish colonialism from the Norwegian language. In general, nynorsk is employed by people in the West of the country, whereas most other areas are either bokmål areas or use both forms.

At one point the Norwegian government tried to merge the two languages, but it abandoned the policy because people just refused to accept any changes. So they're stuck in this situation: public television channels use both languages, as do governmental bodies, and which variant of the language you're taught at school depends on where you grow up.

It's tempting to say that this is one country divided by a common language, but Norway isn't really divided. Let's just say that Norwegians have a strong feeling of national cohesion - even if they might not agree on how to write their language
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:16 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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That probably violates the constitution (which Quebec never ratified),
The constitution was enacted in 1867, based on the Quebec Resolutions. Those Resolutions were ratified by the Quebec representatives in the Parliament of the United Province of Canada.

The vote occurred in the Legislative Assembly on March 13, 1865. The motion in support carried, 91 to 33.

Of the members from Canada West (which would become Ontario), the vote was 54 in favour, 8 against.

Of the members from Canada East (which would become Quebec), the vote was 37 in favour, 25 opposed.

The vote satisfied the "double majority" principle: that major votes in the Legislative Assembly have a majority from the both regions of the Province of Canada.

Quebec has not ratified the 1982 amendments to the Constitution, but that is not the same as saying Quebec never ratified the Constitution.
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Old 07-08-2013, 09:21 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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Originally Posted by Hari Seldon
And Quebec seems on the point of passing a law that will end bilingual services in the provincial and which, according to one report, will end the practice of publishing tax forms in English. That probably violates the constitution
Cite, please?

I am not aware of any provision in the Constitution which requires that Quebec provide services in English. Section 133 of the Constitution Act, 1867, only guarantees the right to use English and French in the Legislature and the courts. The provisions in the Charter requiring bilingual service only apply to Canada and New Brunswick. Quebec is in the same position as the other eight provinces, which do not have a constitutional guarantee of bilingual services.

Last edited by Northern Piper; 07-08-2013 at 09:22 PM..
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  #28  
Old 07-08-2013, 09:50 PM
the_diego the_diego is offline
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New York City if it were a country.
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Old 07-08-2013, 11:06 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Belgium seems the obvious answer. It's completely torn apart by the issue between Walloons and Flemish. There's a large risk of the country spliting up, and during the recent years there was no government in charge most of the time because MPs were unable to agree on one.
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Old 07-09-2013, 05:33 AM
Qin Shi Huangdi Qin Shi Huangdi is offline
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Spain is pretty high on the list at least among developed countries considering that what most people call "Spanish" is just Castillian and there's been recognition for several other languages such as Catalan, Galician, and Basque.
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  #31  
Old 07-09-2013, 06:25 AM
Nava Nava is online now
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Where to begin...

* there are more languages in Spain, depending on how you count (Bable, Valenciano...)
* everybody who's native is either bilingual, thinks he is bilingual or understands Spanish even if they don't speak it too well
* you will never, not in the tiniest village, find yourself in a situation where people won't understand you if you speak Spanish. Some Catalans will pretend they don't, but it's a political choice to be rude. Catalans have been imposing Catalan precisely thanks to the mutual intelligibility of both languages, so even if you did meet someone who spoke only Catalan (no such person), they would be able to communicate with someone speaking Spanish.
* "Spanish" isn't "just Castillian" any more than English is spoken only in Yorkshire. Español/Spanish is the name of the language. Castellano/Castillian is either a dialect of Spanish or, starting in 1976 and as a political decision, the name the language officially receives in some, not all, post-1976 Spanish-from-Spain laws (note it receives no such name in other Spanish-speaking countries). The whole language, with all its dialects, is what's official in the whole country.

The divisions are political, not linguistic.

Last edited by Nava; 07-09-2013 at 06:28 AM..
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  #32  
Old 07-09-2013, 06:50 AM
JKellyMap JKellyMap is offline
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Sorry, Nava, but a lot of Spanish speakers and others throughout the world use "castellano" to refer to the Spanish language. (I know, we're getting into our usual "prescriptivist/descriptivist" argument here.)

Additionally, when discussing the languages spoken within the boundaries of the state called Spain, it can be argued that it's a good idea to say "Castilian" (or "castellano") to refer to Spanish, to avoid confusion between languages and state boundaries. I don't do this myself -- discussing "Spanish" and "Catalan," etc. works fine for me -- but I understand the argument.

I agree that any problems ("divisions") in Spain are generated rather artificially, for essentially political reasons, and so don't fit the OP's query about places where languages are the true cause of some barriers. Sounds like Papua New Guinea might be the best one so far. Basically, it would have to be a country like that, where none of the "official" languages are spoken well by a majority (?) of the residents.

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Old 07-09-2013, 07:11 AM
Les Espaces Du Sommeil Les Espaces Du Sommeil is offline
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Belgium seems the obvious answer. It's completely torn apart by the issue between Walloons and Flemish. There's a large risk of the country spliting up, and during the recent years there was no government in charge most of the time because MPs were unable to agree on one.
I can only say one thing: next year (federal elections) will be... interesting.
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:27 AM
Nava Nava is online now
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Sorry, Nava, but a lot of Spanish speakers and others throughout the world use "castellano" to refer to the Spanish language. (I know, we're getting into our usual "prescriptivist/descriptivist" argument here.)

Additionally, when discussing the languages spoken within the boundaries of the state called Spain, it can be argued that it's a good idea to say "Castilian" (or "castellano") to refer to Spanish, to avoid confusion between languages and state boundaries. I don't do this myself -- discussing "Spanish" and "Catalan," etc. works fine for me -- but I understand the argument.
OK, correction accepted.

As for the second, until 1976 and in Spain that was done only when speaking Catalan, where it referred both to the language and to people who spoke it and did not speak Catalan (my father hated, hated, hated being called "Castillian" - Navarre has never been Castille, but Catalonia has; think of it as calling someone from Alabama a yankee in English). Neither the language nor the people who spoke it were called "castillian" in either Galego, Basque, Aragonese (I am not familiar enough with Bable to tell), nor by the monolingual population (and back then, Valenciano was considered a dialect of Catalan, as the process which has led to it being treated as a separate language legally hadn't even started). The language was lengua castellana or español, castellano was a dialect. But in any case, Qui seems to have completely the wrong idea about what the word castellano means: what's official is not the dialect of Pucela (nobody would refer to the dialect spoken in Albacete as castellano, it's manchego) nor the Spanish spoken by newscasters, nor is it limited to part of the population. Boricua is as official in Spain as my own ribero.

Last edited by Nava; 07-09-2013 at 07:31 AM..
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Old 07-09-2013, 09:36 AM
Nava Nava is online now
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Someting else: the proposal to call it Castellano in the Constitution said that it was because "calling it Spanish makes it sound as if these other languages aren't Spanish ones". But that reasoning came from the same people who called Joan Manuel Serrat a traitor when he published Mediterráneo (1971), his first record in Spanish. I'm talking about a guy who had refused to go to Eurovision 1968 back when that was a huge deal, because he wouldn't be allowed to sing in Catalan; he says "I've got the great fortune to be bilingual, some songs come out in one language, some in the other, and nobody can tell me which language to use". Maybe we're divided about what to call the language - I know, let's go back to lengua romance!

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  #36  
Old 07-09-2013, 09:50 AM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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Getting back to the Canadian example, the OP seems to assume that if only countries only had one language, things would be better. That's not the case with Canada - if there had not been constitutional guarantees for the francophone minority in 1867, and continuing on today, Canada would not exist. There is no way Confederation could have occurred in 1867 without those language guarantees - the speeches in the Canadian Parliament leading to the passage of the Quebec Resolutions make that clear. Canada exists because it accommodates two languages.

Last edited by Northern Piper; 07-09-2013 at 09:52 AM..
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  #37  
Old 07-09-2013, 01:10 PM
JKellyMap JKellyMap is offline
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Good points, Nava -- thanks for the lessons. For the reasons you gave, "castellano" is certainly a poor choice for labeling the Spanish language with all its dialects -- but you could almost argue something similar about English/England (what are the Saxons and Jutes, chopped liver?). People mislabel places and languages throughout history, often either by extending a small place or dialect to a bigger place or language.

Enough of this hijack. Back to the OP, it's come down to Belgium vs. Papua New Guinea (with a couple of holdouts for Canada, and a plea for India.)

Last edited by JKellyMap; 07-09-2013 at 01:11 PM..
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  #38  
Old 07-09-2013, 01:42 PM
the apples fell the apples fell is offline
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Cyprus is a classic example, not sure if others have mentioned it. Greek-speaking in the south (Greek Cypriots), Turkish speaking in the north (Turkish Cypriots).

Most countries split by language are also split by ethnicity, though. For instance, Belgium is split between the Dutch-speaking Flemish and the French-speaking Walloons. I don't know of any country divided by language but not also by ethnicity.
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Old 07-09-2013, 02:08 PM
JKellyMap JKellyMap is offline
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Originally Posted by the apples fell View Post
Most countries split by language are also split by ethnicity, though. For instance, Belgium is split between the Dutch-speaking Flemish and the French-speaking Walloons. I don't know of any country divided by language but not also by ethnicity.
I'd say China is "split" into Mandarin-speaking and Cantonese-speaking areas, and by most definitions both areas are populated by the same "ethnicity" (often termed "Han Chinese."). These are different (though related) languages which share a written component.

But I'm not aware of any serious problems this "split" has caused. Mandarin is taught in schools in Cantonese-dominant areas, but as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong) there hasn't been a backlash against this among Cantonese speakers.

Last edited by JKellyMap; 07-09-2013 at 02:09 PM..
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  #40  
Old 07-09-2013, 04:54 PM
Nava Nava is online now
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Originally Posted by the apples fell View Post
Most countries split by language are also split by ethnicity, though. For instance, Belgium is split between the Dutch-speaking Flemish and the French-speaking Walloons. I don't know of any country divided by language but not also by ethnicity.
Eh, that's a cultural division, tho... you can play "spot the Walloon" all you want, but it ends up being a coin toss. And modern mobility is making "the Rh people" (those who insist in keeping blood-purity along with the purity of language and cultural traditions) less relevant every day.

Last edited by Nava; 07-09-2013 at 04:56 PM..
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  #41  
Old 07-09-2013, 06:41 PM
clairobscur clairobscur is offline
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Originally Posted by the apples fell View Post
Most countries split by language are also split by ethnicity, though. For instance, Belgium is split between the Dutch-speaking Flemish and the French-speaking Walloons. I don't know of any country divided by language but not also by ethnicity.
What is your definition of ethnicity? What makes Flemish and Walloons different, except their language?
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:18 AM
the apples fell the apples fell is offline
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Originally Posted by clairobscur View Post
What is your definition of ethnicity? What makes Flemish and Walloons different, except their language?
My definition of ethnicity is people who consider themselves an ethnic group/identify as one. Walloons and Flemish people see themselves as separate ethnicities, not all as "Belgians", as far as I know.
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