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Old 07-18-2016, 11:28 PM
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Steve King is wrong...Europeans never contributed anything original to civilization


As you may well known Republican Steve King recently said that Whites contributed the most to Western Civilization..

well logically speaking he is completely wrong

if you think about it the foundation of math, science, writing, civilization, technology etc. happened in the Near East by Non-White Civilizations

therefore Europeans never contributed anything original to civilization logically speaking everything they did had to have the foundation of tools created by Non-White Civilizations

I do not mean to start any fighting or trolling anyone..but im looking at this at a pure logical lense

Last edited by Remy2333; 07-18-2016 at 11:29 PM.
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Old 07-18-2016, 11:57 PM
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You're mostly right, but I think there's a real break between the math and science from the ancient thinkers and the moderns influenced by Newton's calculus and physics. And yes, I know various people will claim this or that person "really" invented calculus or what have you - but it was Newtonian physics that led the scientific revolution. That's why Europeans led the Industrial Revolution, because their technology was based on the real science being developed and taught in European Universities.

Steve King is terminal moron but it's as wrong to say that Europeans developed nothing as it is to say that they developed everything.
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Old 07-19-2016, 12:16 AM
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You're mostly right, but I think there's a real break between the math and science from the ancient thinkers and the moderns influenced by Newton's calculus and physics. And yes, I know various people will claim this or that person "really" invented calculus or what have you - but it was Newtonian physics that led the scientific revolution. That's why Europeans led the Industrial Revolution, because their technology was based on the real science being developed and taught in European Universities.

Steve King is terminal moron but it's as wrong to say that Europeans developed nothing as it is to say that they developed everything.
Well, yes, though of course as Newton himself pointed out, he was "standing on the shoulders of giants".

For any advance in philosophy, science, technology or indeed understanding of any kind, we can reasonably say that the advance would not have occurred unless previous generations had made the advances from which this latest advance is a development. And if we drill down far enough, all the advances that we think of as contributing to "civilisation" can be traced back to the near/middle east - to the Fertile Crescent, in fact - and to the dawn of agriculture and urbanisation. Indeed, we could trace them back further, to the first use of tools, likely in Africa.
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Old 07-19-2016, 12:19 AM
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First, the "Near East" is populated by White People (Caucasians, not "non-whites") who lived beyond the boundaries of what early Europeans called Europe and still do.

Yes, you can make the argument that cell phones are simply the product of a gradual development, with a series of straight line refinement from the technologies of cave-men, but those proto-technologies were basically scratching their backs with branches held in prehensile hands with opposable thumbs..

(It's been so many decades since I've heard the term "Near East", I had to look it up, and National Geographic Society says it is synonymous with Middle East, following a wave of political correctness.)

Last edited by jtur88; 07-19-2016 at 12:21 AM.
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Old 07-19-2016, 12:29 AM
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First, the "Near East" is populated by White People (Caucasians, not "non-whites") who lived beyond the boundaries of what early Europeans called Europe and still do.
You confuse "Causasians" with "white people." These terms are often treated as synonymous in the US but of course they are not. Many "Caucasians" are brown or even black. They are neither white in the sense of having pale skin, nor in the social sense.
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Old 07-19-2016, 12:39 AM
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Indeed, we could trace them back further, to the first use of tools, likely in Africa.
Further still, to the cyanobacteria that oxygenated the planet and made complex life of this form possible.
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Old 07-19-2016, 12:47 AM
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First, the "Near East" is populated by White People (Caucasians, not "non-whites") who lived beyond the boundaries of what early Europeans called Europe and still do.
Since "White" is a tendentious ideological construct, they're White if you choose to classify them as White. King clarifies his position by talking about "Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the United States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity has settled the world". That pretty well rules out the pre-Christian Middle East, so presumably he wouldn't classify them as White.

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Yes, you can make the argument that cell phones are simply the product of a gradual development, with a series of straight line refinement from the technologies of cave-men, but those proto-technologies were basically scratching their backs with branches held in prehensile hands with opposable thumbs..
Except you're skipping all the bits in between the twigs and the telephone. Would we ever have got to the telephones unless somebody had come up with the mathematical concept of zero? That didn't happen in "Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the United States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity has settled the world". Or would we have got to the telephones (or indeed to much of what we think of as "Western civilisation") without the Phoenician alphabet?

Basically, the more recent developments that we consider to constitute "Western civilisation" mostly happened in the West. Well, they would have, wouldn't they? The notion that this tells us anything very meaningful about differences between "White people" and "sub-groups" is at best a very stupid one.
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Old 07-19-2016, 12:53 AM
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You confuse "Causasians" with "white people." These terms are often treated as synonymous in the US but of course they are not. Many "Caucasians" are brown or even black. They are neither white in the sense of having pale skin, nor in the social sense.
I agree with all you say except "of course", which implies that a dissenting opinion is untenable.
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Old 07-19-2016, 12:55 AM
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As you may well known Republican Steve King recently said that Whites contributed the most to Western Civilization..

well logically speaking he is completely wrong

if you think about it the foundation of math, science, writing, civilization, technology etc. happened in the Near East by Non-White Civilizations

therefore Europeans never contributed anything original to civilization logically speaking everything they did had to have the foundation of tools created by Non-White Civilizations

I do not mean to start any fighting or trolling anyone..but im looking at this at a pure logical lense
Well, "logically speaking", everything appears to have been built upon the back of Archaea or even stromatolite. Pick 'em.

Last edited by Little_Pig; 07-19-2016 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:19 AM
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I do not mean to start any fighting or trolling anyone..but im looking at this at a pure logical lense
No you aren't. This has got to be one of the dumbest arguments I have ever read on this board. Translated, all it means is that the area where human civilization first arose created some stuff that we still use. That isn't very profound when you put it that way is it?

It is absurd to say that Europeans (or derivatives like many Americans) never created anything of value on their own. If I created a full list, it would break this board's server but here are a few select examples out of thousands:

1) Democracy
2) Modern physics
3) Automobiles
4) Airplanes
5) Computers
6) The discovery of DNA
7) Space travel
8) Most modern medicine

It is beyond disingenuous to claim that those are really just derivative discoveries because some people in the Middle East invented a math system in the Fertile Crescent a very long time ago in the earliest civilizations. Even if we accept that ridiculous fact, where do you think all those Europeans came from anyway?

I will push it back even further and claim the real pioneers were our first bipedal ancestors with opposable thumbs. Ipads would not have been possible without them so they were the real ground-breakers. I also want to give credit to the Chinese for inventing gunpowder. They get credit for everything from the American Revolution to WWII.
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:51 AM
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If you expect to make the racism go away by balancing it out in the exact opposite direction, OP, it doesn't work like that, so stop.
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:53 AM
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You confuse "Causasians" with "white people." These terms are often treated as synonymous in the US but of course they are not. Many "Caucasians" are brown or even black. They are neither white in the sense of having pale skin, nor in the social sense.
...in the US. Where Southern Europeans and Latin Americans also find ourselves being told that we're not white, or conversely, that since we are white we can't be Hispanic, and not so long ago Italians weren't considered "white" either because what that actually meant was "WASP" and no, they were neither Anglo-Saxon nor Protestants.

Now excuse me, I need to pick my eyes back from where they've rolled under the table.
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:58 AM
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Further still, to the cyanobacteria that oxygenated the planet and made complex life of this form possible.
Fucking cyanobacteria actually perpetrated a genocidal massacre against obligate anaerobic organisms, destorying the indigenous lifeforms in provincial favor of their own colonial ambitions. How dare, sir, you express a monophylatic prejudice against our oxygen-fearing ancestors who provided us the basis of all multicellular life.

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Old 07-19-2016, 02:03 AM
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I'm still sore that the elements heavier than iron didn't even come from our own solar system. Fucking matter. Coming over here. Forming our planets.
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Old 07-19-2016, 02:17 AM
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I'm still sore that the elements heavier than iron didn't even come from our own solar system. Fucking matter. Coming over here. Forming our planets.
Preach it, bro! When these foreign stars explode as supernovae, they're not sending their best elements. They're not sending their best molecules. They're not sending CO2 (the precious stuff of life). They're sending elements that have lots of problems. They're bringing silicon, sulfur, chlorine, argon, sodium, potassium, and calcium. They're bringing iron and nickel. And some, I assume, are good elements.
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Old 07-19-2016, 06:56 AM
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White people also brought us the atom bomb and Barry Manilow, so it's a wash.
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Old 07-19-2016, 08:15 AM
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King also conveniently (like most white supremacists and white supremacist leaners) ignores the incredible contributions to American culture and society from non-white people, particularly African Americans.
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Old 07-19-2016, 08:24 AM
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White people also brought us the atom bomb and Barry Manilow, so it's a wash.
Doesn't count. Both Jewish conspiracies. Or maybe part of one big conspiracy? Think about it.
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Old 07-19-2016, 08:38 AM
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The entire subject and conversation is ludicrous and doesn't deserve time or wind.
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:34 AM
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Since "White" is a tendentious ideological construct, they're White if you choose to classify them as White. King clarifies his position by talking about "Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the United States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity has settled the world". That pretty well rules out the pre-Christian Middle East, so presumably he wouldn't classify them as White.


Except you're skipping all the bits in between the twigs and the telephone. Would we ever have got to the telephones unless somebody had come up with the mathematical concept of zero? That didn't happen in "Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the United States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity has settled the world". Or would we have got to the telephones (or indeed to much of what we think of as "Western civilisation") without the Phoenician alphabet?

Basically, the more recent developments that we consider to constitute "Western civilisation" mostly happened in the West. Well, they would have, wouldn't they? The notion that this tells us anything very meaningful about differences between "White people" and "sub-groups" is at best a very stupid one.
isn't that ridiculous reductionism
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Old 07-19-2016, 09:44 AM
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Wait is Ancient Greece counted as White or not? What was the color of Plato and Aristotle's skin? These are the burning questions we really need to know to settle this!
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Old 07-19-2016, 10:35 AM
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Fucking cyanobacteria actually perpetrated a genocidal massacre against obligate anaerobic organisms, destorying the indigenous lifeforms in provincial favor of their own colonial ambitions. How dare, sir, you express a monophylatic prejudice against our oxygen-fearing ancestors who provided us the basis of all multicellular life.

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Old 07-19-2016, 10:43 AM
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I think we should be divided into creatures of the land, sea or air.

A big shout out to us landies. We've done everything. Where's your split atom, Dolphins? Stupid birds, flapping around everywhere. We have i-Pads you twits! With bird games!

Landies are superior.

.

Last edited by Philster; 07-19-2016 at 10:44 AM.
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:47 AM
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I agree with all you say except "of course", which implies that a dissenting opinion is untenable.
Of course it's untenable regarding the classic definition of "Caucasian," which I just demonstrated.

Last edited by Colibri; 07-19-2016 at 11:50 AM.
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:51 AM
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I think we should be divided into creatures of the land, sea or air.

A big shout out to us landies. We've done everything. Where's your split atom, Dolphins? Stupid birds, flapping around everywhere. We have i-Pads you twits! With bird games!

Landies are superior.

.
The Airies can claim Superman....
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:54 AM
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The greatest source of creativity and production in western civilization was centered around the Mediterranean, where constant trade and some surplus gave rise to an exchange of ideas and materials that led to intellectual and material and technological innovations that then spread north to the areas not on the Mediterranean that didn't come into as much contact with others. Many fair skinned folk of the sort who would make dumbass comments about whites starting civilization probably wouldn't even consider olive skinned Mediterraneans white.

My favorite aspect of American culture is that it is such a mishmash and blend. I was cooking several traditional Southern dishes the other day and thinking of how just these simple dishes alone have a thousand bloodlines (not just African and Native and European but a wide variety of African, native, and European peoples). Same with our music and pretty much everything else that is identified as American.
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Old 07-19-2016, 11:54 AM
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isn't that ridiculous reductionism
I don't see how you can accuse anyone else of "ridiculous reductionism" after your OP. This is not exactly an effective rebuttal.
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Old 07-19-2016, 12:33 PM
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No you aren't. This has got to be one of the dumbest arguments I have ever read on this board. Translated, all it means is that the area where human civilization first arose created some stuff that we still use. That isn't very profound when you put it that way is it?

It is absurd to say that Europeans (or derivatives like many Americans) never created anything of value on their own. If I created a full list, it would break this board's server but here are a few select examples out of thousands:
I agree, European societies created most of what's considered modern in the world, across pretty much all areas of human endeavor. Their mastery of technology allowed them to militarily and economically dominate the world to where their political, cultural etc precepts came to dominate as well, and those precepts might also have contributed to the big technological lead, or been adopted elsewhere (successful non Western countries like Japan for example) because other societies recognized them as contributing to Western power.

Anyway this is such a basic backdrop to the history of the modern world that it's a little mind boggling it's being debated. And it's certainly not a serious argument to say it isn't true because Europe had at one time been a backward place and learned from more advanced societies. The question of whether the ancient Greeks were really 'white people' is irrelevant, because even if they were, the Arabs and other at one time more advanced peoples' from whom Europeans learned were not. But the Europeans later surpassed them all in science and technology, and that's how the European dominated 'modern world' emerged.

The King statement is invalid IMO because it seemed to imply a special place or role for white individuals in American society. Although to be fair the person he was responding to was using the double standard license to say the RNC was characterized by 'loud unhappy dissatisfied white people', while saying BLM was full of 'loud unhappy dissatisfied black people' would cause a collective media conniption. Anyway you don't have to deny the European invention, basically, of the modern world to favor rigorous colorblindness as to the merits and contributions of individuals within American society.
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:00 PM
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... King clarifies his position by talking about "Western Europe, Eastern Europe and the United States of America and every place where the footprint of Christianity has settled the world".
It may be a waste of time to refute obvious stupidity, but it amused me to note that the Who's Who List of Europe's early scientific revolution is rife with heretics:

Copernicus (book banned), Bruno (burned at the stake), Cardano (imprisoned for heresy), Galileo (convicted of heresy), Kepler (very religious but antagonized the Church enough that his mother was tortured for witchcraft), Hooke (held non-Christian views), and even Newton (secretly denied the existence of Holy Trinity).
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:16 PM
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You're mostly right, but I think there's a real break between the math and science from the ancient thinkers and the moderns influenced by Newton's calculus and physics. And yes, I know various people will claim this or that person "really" invented calculus or what have you - but it was Newtonian physics that led the scientific revolution. That's why Europeans led the Industrial Revolution, because their technology was based on the real science being developed and taught in European Universities.

Steve King is terminal moron but it's as wrong to say that Europeans developed nothing as it is to say that they developed everything.
I agree except that isn't why Europe led the industrial revolution. It all had to do with economics. England, were industrialization started, had two things, ready access to coal and high wages. Those high wages led capitalists to seek a method to increase profits and couldn't do so by lowering wages since their workers would have quit. So they invested in technology which used coal as a source of power instead of people. Thus allowing greater productivity per worker.

In places like India workers were dirt cheap so there was no incentive to replace their labor with relatively expensive machinery especially when they didn't have ready sources of coal. So while Europe developed machines to make cloth everyone else was fine using low paid workers and it ballooned from there.
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Old 07-19-2016, 01:52 PM
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Well, yes, though of course as Newton himself pointed out, he was "standing on the shoulders of giants".
Sure, but that one gracious statement (possibly the only example of Newtonian graciousness!) doesn't mean that Newton "never contributed anything original to civilization", as the OP put it.
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Old 07-19-2016, 02:45 PM
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I hesitate to mention Greece but...Greece? I'm not aware of a large population of non-honky Greeks.
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Old 07-19-2016, 02:46 PM
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I agree except that isn't why Europe led the industrial revolution. It all had to do with economics. England, were industrialization started, had two things, ready access to coal and high wages. Those high wages led capitalists to seek a method to increase profits and couldn't do so by lowering wages since their workers would have quit. So they invested in technology which used coal as a source of power instead of people. Thus allowing greater productivity per worker.
Actually, I think that Industrialization began in England and the Netherlands. The NL portion just tends to get less press in English language literature because of the English/England connection and Adam Smith.
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Old 07-19-2016, 03:01 PM
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From the 18th century onward, almost all innovation came from Western European nations and their offshoots (Australia, US, Canada, etc). In the last few decades East Asian nations have started to contribute to these fields heavily.

But as of now, those two cultural and ethnic groups shoulder most of our innovation and advances.

It isn't even wite people. Eastern Europe is full of white people and they historically don't contribute much to science, technology and medicine. That may change as their economies rapidly grow and their most talented move to Western Europe.

Maybe in fifty years nations in Africa or Latin America will be as productive as Japan or Germany. We will see.

Ideally, as the world advances more and more nations will industrialize and contribute. But right now it really is whites and east Asians doing most of it. More like 1% of whites and east Asians, the rest of us are jerking off and watching Netflix.
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Old 07-19-2016, 03:08 PM
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Actually, I think that Industrialization began in England and the Netherlands. The NL portion just tends to get less press in English language literature because of the English/England connection and Adam Smith.
I would say that the same forces happened there as in England.
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Old 07-19-2016, 03:40 PM
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Maybe in fifty years nations in Africa or Latin America will be as productive as Japan or Germany. We will see.
Brazil is starting to pick up in the software engineering world.
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Old 07-19-2016, 04:35 PM
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Brazil is starting to pick up in the software engineering world.
Good. Fifty years ago East Asia didn't have much going for it, it was all dirt poor farmers. Now much of it is industrialized and they spend 2-4% of GDP on R&D.

I hope latin america, southern asia, southeast asia, africa, etc. all industrialize and develop strong R&D investments.

I thought Brazil was starting to dive into biomedical research too.

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Old 07-19-2016, 04:49 PM
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Preach it, bro! When these foreign stars explode as supernovae, they're not sending their best elements. They're not sending their best molecules. They're not sending CO2 (the precious stuff of life). They're sending elements that have lots of problems. They're bringing silicon, sulfur, chlorine, argon, sodium, potassium, and calcium. They're bringing iron and nickel. And some, I assume, are good elements.
It's all been downhill since the recombination epoch. Neutral hydrogen stinks! Really, there's been nothing new under the sun* since then!

*except suns
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Old 07-20-2016, 01:06 AM
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Brazil is starting to pick up in the software engineering world.
Costa Rica and Argentina are quite popular locations for support centers too; CR has a large Intel factory and research center.
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Old 07-20-2016, 07:00 AM
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As others have pointed out, the Greek ideas of democracy and philosophy did not arise independently anywhere else in the world. Had the Greeks not invented these ideas, or even if they had arisen independently at a later date, the entire history of humanity would look very different.

To say that Europeans invented nothing of value is just as wrong as to say they invented everything. Both ideas are equally stupid. I would also submit that this kind of all-or-nothing, black-and-white thinking is exactly what got us in the mess we see today.
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Old 07-20-2016, 09:47 AM
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And no one has even mentioned Pink Floyd or Monty Python. Without them there is no civilization.
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Old 07-20-2016, 10:16 AM
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Historically speaking, there's no fixed definition of 'white people', because race is a social construct. Talking about contributions to civilization from 'white people' is not meaningful.

'Europeans and their descendants' is at least a group that can be defined. And it's absurd to say that that group hasn't contributed anything to civilization, almost as absurd as suggesting that they're responsible for the majority or totality of such contribution.
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Old 07-20-2016, 10:31 AM
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Ideally, as the world advances more and more nations will industrialize and contribute. But right now it really is whites and east Asians doing most of it. More like 1% of whites and east Asians, the rest of us are jerking off and watching Netflix.
Exactly. What's wrong with King's statement is the implied attribution of credit to the ~99% of whites in American society who haven't contributed anything original over the ~99% of non-whites in American society who haven't contributed anything original. Whether the ~'s are exactly the same isn't relevant to it being a very large % in either case.

The context was a statement by another panel member on the show where King spoke (also a stupid comment IMO) saying the RNC was full of 'unhappy white people', to which King responded basically 'look at all that white people have done'. And since RNC delegates (nor DNC ones) aren't particularly disproportionately composed of people who've actually come up with original advancements, it implied a credit to be given to every day whites who haven't contributed anything original over every day non-whites who haven't. It's the other side of the coin from saying African slavery is the fault of individual white people living now.

OTOH to claim Western societies as a whole didn't basically invent the modern world (though Confucian societies, especially, are coming on strong now) is denying clear fact.
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Old 07-20-2016, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Corry El View Post
Exactly. What's wrong with King's statement is the implied attribution of credit to the ~99% of whites in American society who haven't contributed anything original over the ~99% of non-whites in American society who haven't contributed anything original. Whether the ~'s are exactly the same isn't relevant to it being a very large % in either case.

The context was a statement by another panel member on the show where King spoke (also a stupid comment IMO) saying the RNC was full of 'unhappy white people', to which King responded basically 'look at all that white people have done'. And since RNC delegates (nor DNC ones) aren't particularly disproportionately composed of people who've actually come up with original advancements, it implied a credit to be given to every day whites who haven't contributed anything original over every day non-whites who haven't. It's the other side of the coin from saying African slavery is the fault of individual white people living now.

OTOH to claim Western societies as a whole didn't basically invent the modern world (though Confucian societies, especially, are coming on strong now) is denying clear fact.
There are many things wrong with King's statement. One of the main things, from an American perspective, is the total dismissal of the massive contributions to American culture, history, and society from non-European descended people. Same with "Western society" -- it's never been just white people, or just Europeans... there have always been significant contributions from people descending from other parts of the world.
  #45  
Old 07-20-2016, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Nava View Post
...in the US. Where Southern Europeans and Latin Americans also find ourselves being told that we're not white, or conversely, that since we are white we can't be Hispanic, and not so long ago Italians weren't considered "white" either because what that actually meant was "WASP" and no, they were neither Anglo-Saxon nor Protestants.

Now excuse me, I need to pick my eyes back from where they've rolled under the table.
You mean like someone saying you can't be Hispanic, because you're from Spain, not Mexico. I witnessed this a few years ago at a convention in Chicago. (And by Mexico, he meant anywhere south of the US border.)
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The Airies can claim Superman....
Landies got Batman. We win.
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  #46  
Old 07-20-2016, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Philster View Post
I think we should be divided into creatures of the land, sea or air.

A big shout out to us landies. We've done everything. Where's your split atom, Dolphins? Stupid birds, flapping around everywhere. We have i-Pads you twits! With bird games!

Landies are superior.

.
Landies? I do believe the correct term is Landos. As in the Calrissians. So it was the aliens that brought the advances. Ancient Aliens is correct!
  #47  
Old 07-20-2016, 06:30 PM
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Personally I believe that all of societies achievements were originated by folks with O+ blood. O negatives are ok but the rest of you are really just riding our coattails.
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