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  #151  
Old 12-06-2017, 03:37 PM
flip-68 flip-68 is offline
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I'm an outsider looking in (Brit) so don't have as much knowledge of the details you guys do but in broad terms I find whats going on in USA very sinister at the moment - the devaluing of the press, the attacks on the environment and it's protection, the idea that truth is whatever the president and the elites say it is, laws being ignored and the mob cheering for it even as their health plans are taken away from them.

it feels like the breakdown of decency - like we've gone beyond the point where someone would say 'enough'. i don't agree with republican politics generally but this force that's been unleashed is scary - there's nothing to hold these guys back anymore. they break all the rules they used to crucify the democrats since the 90's but that doesn't matter - they give a tax break to the super wealthy that is so brazen it's breathtaking - the president is cheating lying sexual predator and it doesn't matter.

i had hoped that the Mueller investigation would unearth the 'smoking gun' but now i feel that even if it does it won't matter. power has already been transferred to a group of people who will cry fake news, ignore it and point the finger elsewhere. the revolution has already happened.
  #152  
Old 12-06-2017, 03:41 PM
What Exit? What Exit? is offline
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It is easy to see this as the start of Idiocracy, but I'm pretty sure we'll push back and get the country back on track.
  #153  
Old 12-06-2017, 03:43 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by What Exit? View Post
It is easy to see this as the start of Idiocracy, but I'm pretty sure we'll push back and get the country back on track.
The most unrealistic part of that movie was that it took 500 years.
  #154  
Old 12-06-2017, 04:00 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Originally Posted by flip-68 View Post
I'm an outsider looking in (Brit) so don't have as much knowledge of the details you guys do but in broad terms I find whats going on in USA very sinister at the moment - the devaluing of the press, the attacks on the environment and it's protection, the idea that truth is whatever the president and the elites say it is, laws being ignored and the mob cheering for it even as their health plans are taken away from them.

it feels like the breakdown of decency - like we've gone beyond the point where someone would say 'enough'. i don't agree with republican politics generally but this force that's been unleashed is scary - there's nothing to hold these guys back anymore. they break all the rules they used to crucify the democrats since the 90's but that doesn't matter - they give a tax break to the super wealthy that is so brazen it's breathtaking - the president is cheating lying sexual predator and it doesn't matter.

i had hoped that the Mueller investigation would unearth the 'smoking gun' but now i feel that even if it does it won't matter. power has already been transferred to a group of people who will cry fake news, ignore it and point the finger elsewhere. the revolution has already happened.
This is the end result of decades of brainwashing, propaganda and preying on people's worst impluses (bigotry, nativism, fear, contempt, egoism) by the right to win elections.

Every since the 1960s the right has learned if they prey on people's bigotry and racial resentment, they can win elections. Starting in the 80s they created propaganda networks that not only fed their listeners one sided stories but (much worse) made their listeners believe any media outlet than wasn't propaganda was itself dishonest propaganda. It is Orwellian, people who get their news from dishonest propaganda think real News is dishonest propaganda. Decades of intentionally making their voters angry, bigoted, misinformed and afraid has come to this.

A lot of us here are deeply ashamed and disappointed of America and its people. Hopefully we can get back on track someday. But the world will never respect or trust us again. I don't blame them.

70% of republicans in Alabama think all the roy Moore accusations are 'fake'. No matter what evidence is uncovered about Trump, I bet 50-70%of Republicans will dismiss it as fake. The rest won't care enough to change their vote.

Our best bet is to hope these people die of old age and limit the damage they can do Until that happens.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 12-06-2017 at 04:03 PM.
  #155  
Old 12-06-2017, 04:07 PM
What Exit? What Exit? is offline
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One small bit of hope, if true.
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Originally Posted by Decider
She also rubbed Breitbart’s traffic numbers in his face, saying that the site’s traffic is down 20% from last year and the number of advertisers on the site has reportedly dropped by 90%.
I got that from a link in the NY Post Baseball pages to the Decider. No idea if they are a worthwhile source or if Megan McCain is correct.
  #156  
Old 12-06-2017, 06:30 PM
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We are at a time of greater danger than any point in our history. Sure, the Civil War was traumatic, but the nation survived because the good side prevailed militarily. It was a great danger to the prospects of the nation's survival, but we know it came out okay. We don't know if we will survive this current crisis.

The 1960s gave us left wing resistance to Vietnam and right wing resistance to civil rights. But you know what the difference was between then and now? We all read the same papers, we all watched the same news. You didn't have the right wing bubble completely detached from reality as we do now. And I don't buy the bothsidesdoitism that is the knee-jerk reaction. There is no liberal equivalent to Fox "News", One America "News", Sinclair Broadcasting, Limbaugh, Savage, etc. The right wing has its own version of reality and they spread lies constantly on Facebook and other social media. A significant number of people get their news from Facebook memes. The people are dumbing down rapidly.

The Republicans have shamelessly exploited the ignorance and bigotry among the least of us. All of our problems are due to "the other". Muslims are all terrorists. Mexicans are coming to steal our jobs and rape the white women. Blacks all want free stuff and the won't even stand for the national anthem! These lies now come in the form of train whistles where in the past they used dog whistles. Nixon's Southern Strategy welcomed the racists with open arms. Reagan's campaign opening in Philadelphia, MS was a dog whistle. His welfare queen fables were a dog whistle. Now Don the Con has made it acceptable for racists and bigots of all stripes to proudly wear their hatred and their ignorance like a badge of "honor".

Yes, we're in extreme danger and the fault lies 100% with Republicans. They're the ones who refused to work with a black president. They're the ones that used the lies about the ACA to take many state houses in 2010 and then gerrymandered themselves into dominance. They're the ones trying to suppress the votes of the opposition.

We have one chance and one chance only- the 2020 election. If Democrats can win all branches of government and take enough statehouses to un-gerrymander the districts, democracy has a chance. If Don the Con himself or another Bannon disciple should win in 2020, then forget about it. The great American experiment will have failed.

I can't find too many holes in this summation. I'm definitely getting more pessimistic/concerned as time goes on. Gerrymandering and the electoral college are big concerns. Sure, the Dems also gerrymandered, but nowhere near to the fucking obscene extent that the Pubs have, and even if the Dems, say, 10-15 years from now, were to somehow benefit from the EC, I'd still advocate for its abolishment - not much use if EC members are now expected to vote along party lines, instead of providing a safeguard against ignorant, "addled" voters. 538 voters taking precedence over 300,000,000? And don't get me started on that "voter fraud" ka-ka (an evilly fucked-up conceit resulting in voter suppression).

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Originally Posted by RandMcnally View Post
We'll see a brain drain.

France's President Emmanuel Macron was all over this last June:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIBNqP9nZM8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51xG416_UPI
  #157  
Old 12-06-2017, 07:40 PM
E-DUB E-DUB is offline
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The thing about gerrymandering is that, to maximize the number of seats they take, the Republicans have shaved the anticipated margins of victory down to a level that would not be able to withstand a "wave" election. That gives me some hope that we may be able to turn this thing around. I also think that, while trump is able to rally his base very effectively, a lot of people can only be told that it's raining so many times before realizing that they're actually getting their heads pissed on.
  #158  
Old 12-06-2017, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by E-DUB View Post
I also think that, while trump is able to rally his base very effectively, a lot of people can only be told that it's raining so many times before realizing that they're actually getting their heads pissed on.

.......by Killary and Obummer's legacy?


ETA: Not sure if Russian prostitutes somehow fit into this equation.

Last edited by Guest-starring: Id!; 12-06-2017 at 07:49 PM.
  #159  
Old 12-06-2017, 08:54 PM
up_the_junction up_the_junction is offline
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Joining this thread late because I was finishing finals. I have a lot of hope for this country because of one reason: Millennials. They're waking up. I spend a lot of time with a lot of Millennials, and contrary to stereotypes, they care about this country and its (their!) future. More of them are becoming politically active, and I'll tell you, they don't like the shit that's been happening.
I also think this cohort is a rare source of optimism. In this context they're significant because they are the first generation to grow up with news sources and social information, on their little hand held computers, beyond the propagandist mainstream. They see the USA in a broader, fact-based world.

A great difficulty, for me, remains city vs. country. Metro liberals have no idea, and don't seem to care, about how much of the the country beyond their socio-political horizons is hurting badly.
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  #160  
Old 12-06-2017, 09:53 PM
asahi asahi is offline
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Originally Posted by up_the_junction View Post
A great difficulty, for me, remains city vs. country. Metro liberals have no idea, and don't seem to care, about how much of the the country beyond their socio-political horizons is hurting badly.
This is generally not true in my experience. I think that metro liberals are indeed very much aware of things like the loss of factory jobs and the drug crises that has ravaged the heartland. They typically advocate fairer policies than the conservatives who lie to the white working class with slogans like drain the swamp and make American great again, and the hire nothing but billionaires who loot taxpayers on a daily basis. I think metro liberals understand the facts and circumstances that affect rural white American pretty well - better than the conservatives these people keep voting for.

If liberals are guilty of one thing it's not understanding how they perceive the world. Some liberals are dismissive of their perceptions and wrote them off for failing to live up to meet their epistemic tests. They don't understand how white folks can perceive diversity at the expense of the white working class because diversity is a liberal value. They don't understand how people who grew up in a world without gay marriage can't just tolerate and accept gay and lesbian couples publicly displaying their affection. So thus it begins, the clash of values, the clash of cultures. In this respect, liberals often just don't get it. Liberals don't have to accept the heartland's value system, but they need to understand it and try to find ways to message around it. But ultimately, what's really important is for liberals to turn economics and having a higher standard of living into family values.

I understand why Democrats chased the money in the 1990s and 2000s - in a relatively stable economic and political environment, the politics of centrism and compromise still prevailed. The two parties still operated conventionally as two slightly inverted versions of the same coin. Democrats felt they needed special interest money - Wall Street money in particular - to compete with their counterparts. But in doing so, the Democrats lost their edge and lost an identity in the process. They stopped associating economics and standards of living with values, and by doing that Republicans made values a debate about how people should behave in private life and what the government could do to prevent people from behaving badly in their bedrooms. That's what "values" became, and economics just became stats and data. It's hard to win elections that way, as the Democrats have found out. Bernie Sanders has the right idea: if Democrats are to win, they have to have a clear and loud voice in defense of economic and social justice. Without these, we're not really a free society, let alone not a prosperous one.
  #161  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:30 AM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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Originally Posted by up_the_junction View Post

A great difficulty, for me, remains city vs. country. Metro liberals have no idea, and don't seem to care, about how much of the the country beyond their socio-political horizons is hurting badly.
I don't think this is accurate. You're free to explain why you feel it is accurate because I appreciate people whose opinions don't line up with mine offering me counterpoints, but this isn't my experience.

For one thing (and this is very important) it is only white rural areas that vote overwhelmingly for Republicans. There are rural counties in America full of blacks, Latinos and native Americans. They have the same problems. Job losses, drug overdoses, loss of hope, out of control health care costs, etc. But the white counties vote republican and the non white counties vote Democrat. They have the exact same problems, but skin color determines which party they vote for.

Also these problems exist in the cities too. We have drug problems, unemployment, health care costs, etc to worry about too.

But the democrats at least offer policy to help. The gop does not. They offer unrealistic solutions or empty rhetoric and then govern like plutocrats.

I agree we on the left have a lot of contempt for rural conservative whites. We do. But a big part of that is because we view them as bigoted hypocrites. The problem is rural values normally are code for 'opportunity for me, but not for thee'. Basically, according to their values, they can get married but gays can't. They can protest injustice (like government brutality and oppression) but blacks can't. They can get welfare but other people shouldn't. They deserve religious freedom but Muslims and atheists do not. They want freedom and welfare, but only for themselves. They want everyone else to live in an authoritarian, dog eat dog world while they get to live in a free, safe enclave. It's infuriating.

Throw in how dogmatic many of them are, and it's hard to respect them.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 12-07-2017 at 10:31 AM.
  #162  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:49 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
But the democrats at least offer policy to help. The gop does not. They offer unrealistic solutions or empty rhetoric and then govern like plutocrats.
Liberals see cracks in society and try to fix them, admittedly, with mixed results.

Conservatives see cracks in society and do their best to widen and exploit them for their own personal gain.

Destruction is easier than creation.
  #163  
Old 12-07-2017, 05:25 PM
up_the_junction up_the_junction is offline
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
If liberals are guilty of one thing it's not understanding how they perceive the world. Some liberals are dismissive of their perceptions and wrote them off for failing to live up to meet their epistemic tests. They don't understand how white folks can perceive diversity at the expense of the white working class because diversity is a liberal value. They don't understand how people who grew up in a world without gay marriage can't just tolerate and accept gay and lesbian couples publicly displaying their affection. So thus it begins, the clash of values, the clash of cultures. In this respect, liberals often just don't get it. Liberals don't have to accept the heartland's value system, but they need to understand it and try to find ways to message around it. But ultimately, what's really important is for liberals to turn economics and having a higher standard of living into family values.

I understand why Democrats chased the money in the 1990s and 2000s - in a relatively stable economic and political environment, the politics of centrism and compromise still prevailed. The two parties still operated conventionally as two slightly inverted versions of the same coin. Democrats felt they needed special interest money - Wall Street money in particular - to compete with their counterparts. But in doing so, the Democrats lost their edge and lost an identity in the process. They stopped associating economics and standards of living with values, and by doing that Republicans made values a debate about how people should behave in private life and what the government could do to prevent people from behaving badly in their bedrooms. That's what "values" became, and economics just became stats and data. It's hard to win elections that way, as the Democrats have found out. Bernie Sanders has the right idea: if Democrats are to win, they have to have a clear and loud voice in defense of economic and social justice. Without these, we're not really a free society, let alone not a prosperous one.
Thanks for the constructive post.

The notion of illiberal liberals is still quite new to me - close-minded, dismissive, unquestionably morally superior, judgemental, etc. God, i probably used to be one. At least you aren't one.

Fwiw, in understanding the new political paradigms in Europe and the US I didn't find the old groupings at all helpful; desperate people aren't democrats of republicans, they have no allegiances, they know all politicians fail them.
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Last edited by up_the_junction; 12-07-2017 at 05:27 PM.
  #164  
Old 12-08-2017, 12:58 AM
marshmallow marshmallow is online now
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Poor rural whites are ripe for radicalization, but organizing them seems like quite the challenge given the lower population density.

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Originally Posted by Not Carlson View Post
So the suggestion that America may be in a better place when the number of old white Christian males has shrunk to a point where they no longer have a significant influence on the politics of the nation is not unreasonable.
It's optimistic because it assumes these young progressives will modify or dismantle the systems of power that lead to these policies instead of being co-opted. Even just a socdem America would require an enormous and sustained popular movement, but the culture strikes me as defeated. There's a lot of pressure to be passive and obedient. Try starting a union in a right to work state. Oh, you can't pay your student debts? No more driver's license. Do a little protesting? Let's call it a felony. The elites are playing for keeps.

Imagine an America where the Clintons are seen as reactionaries.

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Originally Posted by What Exit? View Post
The fairly balanced and honest news really only had a short run of maybe 1940s through 1980s.
To describe the American commercial media during the Cold War as "fairly balanced" is peculiar. They systematically supported American imperialism explicitly, or made excuses for it, or ignored it while demonizing the Soviets and third world independence movements.

Last edited by marshmallow; 12-08-2017 at 12:59 AM.
  #165  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by marshmallow View Post
To describe the American commercial media during the Cold War as "fairly balanced" is peculiar. They systematically supported American imperialism explicitly, or made excuses for it, or ignored it while demonizing the Soviets and third world independence movements.

You could also say there was a little home cookin when it came to false reporting of many of the unfolding events in Vietnam, too, regardless - I wouldn't say "fairly balanced" is a peculiar descriptor. I would say it's quite accurate in that despite the noted imperfections, it's still not rife with all the extremist, outlandish news sources we have today and goofy "fake news" climate.
  #166  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:57 AM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is online now
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Originally Posted by Guest-starring: Id! View Post
You could also say there was a little home cookin when it came to false reporting of many of the unfolding events in Vietnam, too, regardless - I wouldn't say "fairly balanced" is a peculiar descriptor. I would say it's quite accurate in that despite the noted imperfections, it's still not rife with all the extremist, outlandish news sources we have today and goofy "fake news" climate.
Emphasis added.

This.
  #167  
Old 12-08-2017, 01:22 PM
BigAppleBucky BigAppleBucky is offline
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Originally Posted by flip-68 View Post
. . . the revolution has already happened.
More like a putsch.

I have three kids, my best hope is that at least one of them escapes from the USA to some place safer. I'm too old to flee.
  #168  
Old 12-08-2017, 07:45 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
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More like a putsch.

I have three kids, my best hope is that at least one of them escapes from the USA to some place safer. I'm too old to flee.
The US in many ways will always lag behind europe.

But what happens in 20 years. In 2037, the oldest millennials will be in their mid to late 50s. The American electorate will probably be 45%+ non-white. Most people who identified with the tea party in 2009 won't be here anymore.

Part of me thinks what is happening (and will continue to happen) is that the older white voters are not handling seeing America become multicultural. They feel displaced and feel like America's identity that they knew and loved (a white, hetero christian patriarchy where everyone knew where they fell in the social totem pole and nobody fought against the system) is rapidly dying. They are getting desperate to MAGA by turning America back into what it was where they were on top.

But they won't be around forever. Granted, their kids could be just as bad if not worse. But so far, it appears that younger white voters aren't as bad as their parents generation and are accustomed to multiculturalism in ways their parents are not. 62% of white boomers voted for Trump, only 47% of whites age 18-29 voted for Trump.

In 2020, up to 40% of potential voters will be millennials.

I don't hate republicans or conservatives. But I think many on the right are so afraid of demographic and cultural changes that it is making them do and believe irrational and immoral things. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Things won't be perfect, but the era of segregation was better than the era of slavery. The era now is better than the era of segregation. And the future will be better still.

I'm hopeful for the future, but the US will always be an imperfect place. We will never be Sweden or the Netherlands, and it could be decades before the demographics that are behind the most immoral and irrational behavior in politics aren't around in strong enough numbers to damage the nation.

Having said all that, I have considered leaving the US too. Mostly to live in a country with sane politics and a working, humane health care system.
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Last edited by Wesley Clark; 12-08-2017 at 07:50 PM.
  #169  
Old 12-10-2017, 04:30 AM
up_the_junction up_the_junction is offline
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I think one of the most remarkable statistics I've seen relates to US healthcare and it's that, in the context of so much money and so much medical knowledge and KPI indicator gains elsewhere in the developing world, life expectancy in the USA is declining.

I cannot think of a more damning indictment of - not a healthcare system - but a political system. And absolutely no one is being held to account. With all we have in the 21st century this is an epic catastrophe. It is a truly extraordinary failure of democracy and political accountability.
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  #170  
Old 12-10-2017, 09:34 AM
asahi asahi is offline
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I think one of the most remarkable statistics I've seen relates to US healthcare and it's that, in the context of so much money and so much medical knowledge and KPI indicator gains elsewhere in the developing world, life expectancy in the USA is declining.

I cannot think of a more damning indictment of - not a healthcare system - but a political system. And absolutely no one is being held to account. With all we have in the 21st century this is an epic catastrophe. It is a truly extraordinary failure of democracy and political accountability.
And one portion of the article also potentially explains how this trend could fuel tribalism in the political system.

Quote:
Dr. Muennig said that a decline in the health of working class whites was a major contributor to the latest survey results. Life expectancy for whites has stagnated or dipped in recent years, fueled by vulnerability to drug and alcohol abuse, suicide and economic distress.

“It’s not happening to black people,” Dr. Muennig said. “That group used to have a huge and growing disparity with whites, but that gap has radically narrowed.”
It was clear that the perception among a lot of white blue collar voters in suburban and rural America was that socioeconomic changes that many urban intellectuals considered positive were coming at their expense. When people say that it's hyperbole to compare the United States to Germany of the 1920s and early 1930s, they're basing this on the fact that we're not recovering from a humiliating defeat like the Germans were in WWI or that we don't (yet) have Weimar hyperinflation. But America's been at war for close to two decades now, and many of those soldiers who've died or suffered devastating injuries are from the Heartland. We've also experienced a devastating financial crisis that crushed the middle class and in many cases this has all but permanently condemned them to life in the ranks of the working poor. Without economic security, there is no social or psychological stability. People have lost faith in institutions to serve them. It's easy to see why many are looking for a superman, and I'm guessing their vision of a superman is someone who looks a lot like them and articulates how they feel.
  #171  
Old 12-10-2017, 10:23 AM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is online now
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Originally Posted by up_the_junction View Post
I think one of the most remarkable statistics I've seen relates to US healthcare and it's that, in the context of so much money and so much medical knowledge and KPI indicator gains elsewhere in the developing world, life expectancy in the USA is declining.

I cannot think of a more damning indictment of - not a healthcare system - but a political system. And absolutely no one is being held to account. With all we have in the 21st century this is an epic catastrophe. It is a truly extraordinary failure of democracy and political accountability.
"I cannot think of a more damning indictment..." unless it's that the US has the highest infant mortality rate of a group of 25 other developed countries We're at the BOTTOM of this list. (Note: this is a pdf.) Data is from 2010.

Quote:
The U.S.’s relatively high infant mortality rate is one of the darkest stains on the nation’s public-health record. Compared to babies in other wealthy nations, infants in the U.S. are far less likely to make it to their first birthdays—in 2010, a U.S. baby was more than twice as likely to die in its first year than a baby in Norway, the Czech Republic, Portugal, and Japan.

But new data released [March, 2017] by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows that the U.S. infant mortality rate has fallen 15 percent in the past decade, a promising signal that improvements in health-care policies and access are making an impact. Between 2005 and 2014, the rate decreased from 6.86 to 5.82 infant deaths per 1,000 live births, a decrease of 15 percent.

That still puts the U.S. above the 2010 rates of Europe and developed nations around the world, but a 15 percent decline is no small achievement...
Still a disgrace when you consider we have the resources to vastly improve this situation. If Congress cared about children. This is the Congress that let CHIP expire and hasn't done anything about that either.
  #172  
Old 12-10-2017, 11:19 AM
up_the_junction up_the_junction is offline
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Not to mention the mothers: https://www.npr.org/2017/05/12/52809...eveloped-world
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  #173  
Old 12-10-2017, 05:31 PM
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I've pretty much lost it. The GOP tax "reform" will get reconciled and rammed through in one of its potential monstrous forms despite the fact that it's unpopular with the people Congress is supposed to be serving, since money is speech and big money donors control Congress. Plus Tmurp would sign any GOP bill into law as long as he could spin it as a GOP "win" and a "fuck you" to Obama, Hillary, Schumer, and Pelosi.

Paul Ryan and the Turtle will probably destroy SS, Medicare, and Medicaid as much as they can next year, and Tmurp will sell it as "the best bill ever" so his base will cheer as they set up their cardboard boxes in the street.

This country is crazy and there's nowhere for me to go as I don't have any route for citizenship elsewhere, no rare skills to be a desirable hiree in another country, and am obviously not independently wealthy so I could be accepted as a resident who would not be a drain on whatever society I would possibly like to move to.

I know I'm selfishly complaining about myself a lot here, but this is the Pit. I'm just so tired of hearing how wonderful and upstanding and put upon billionaires are and what a load of mooching freeloaders the working class is and how MAGA consists of welfare for billionaires and big business while eliminating programs for the less fortunate.
  #174  
Old 12-10-2017, 07:20 PM
Kobal2 Kobal2 is offline
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Originally Posted by Skypist View Post
This country is crazy and there's nowhere for me to go as I don't have any route for citizenship elsewhere, no rare skills to be a desirable hiree in another country, and am obviously not independently wealthy so I could be accepted as a resident who would not be a drain on whatever society I would possibly like to move to.
Don't say that, France will open its arms wide to anybody !
Provided they do at least three years in the Foreign Legion, that is. But what's 3 little years in the worst hellholes the planet has to offer ?
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  #175  
Old 12-10-2017, 11:58 PM
Siam Sam Siam Sam is offline
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Originally Posted by Neo-Calredic View Post
One simple question: Do you have hope for the future of the United States?
I've been an adult for several decades now, and that question has come up at least once in each one. Of course I have hope. It's all relative. I was recently reading about the political wranglings in the 1790s, and the 2010s don't have much on that period. Just a bunch of friggin' backstabbers back then. Not George Washington, but just about everyone else in government. In Ron Chernow's bio of him, Washington had apparently envisioned his job as temporary, maybe stepping down a couple years in. But there was no one he felt comfortable handing over the reins to, so he held on, and the job visibly aged him. He finally had enough after two terms.

So, yeah I have hope. Rumors of America's death have always been premature.
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  #176  
Old 12-11-2017, 02:31 PM
Nava Nava is offline
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
I think this would be seen (if they saw it) as a bonus by many repubs. Getting rid of them "smarty pants libruls telling us about global warning."
Miguel de Unamuno in 1906: "Let others invent, and us take advantage of their inventions. I hope and trust that you'll be convinced, as I am, that electric lights work as well here as where they were invented."

The notion that it's ok for research to take place abroad so long as it benefits everybody is very different from the notion that one should never research because any research will benefit everybody; even more different from the notion that anything new is by definition suspect.
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  #177  
Old 12-11-2017, 02:36 PM
chaika chaika is offline
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Hell, I still have hope for Russia. Of course I have hope for the US. That makes me either an optimist or an idiot. (And I'm not ruling out the latter.)
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