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  #1151  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:17 AM
CurtC CurtC is offline
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I've spent much of the last two and half years thinking "well that's it - he can't survive this", only to be shocked that people still support him.

He's the unsinkable rubber ducky. I'd like to think that the Russia information will finally sink him, but the Republicans in Congress, and 35% of America, will have to drastically change, so I'll believe it when it happens.
  #1152  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:02 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by jsc1953 View Post
I agree with the first part; the indictments of Junior and Jared. Plus, it will produce a long list of impeachable and otherwise indictable offenses against Trump, none of which will be addressed until there's a Democratic majority in the House. If Democrats take over after the mid-terms there will be an impeachment in January 2019. If Democrats take over the Senate as well, Trump will be gone by February.
Even if trump himself is untouchable, that doesn't mean that his financial empire isn't. I wouldn't be surprised it, by the end of this investigation, he is left with nothing, left as just a pauper, even if the republicans are too chickenshit too put the good of the country above their own.
  #1153  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:12 AM
gytalf2000 gytalf2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
You are not the only one who had those thoughts and worries.

By the way, not sure if you're aware, but one add to that abortion of a tax bill the Republicans are trying to ram through before the end of the year is lifting protections against oil and gas drilling for the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Fuckers.
Goddammit! Fuckers, indeed! I wish that I still believed in Hell so I could send them there....
  #1154  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:18 AM
gytalf2000 gytalf2000 is offline
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Originally Posted by k9bfriender View Post
Even if trump himself is untouchable, that doesn't mean that his financial empire isn't. I wouldn't be surprised it, by the end of this investigation, he is left with nothing, left as just a pauper, even if the republicans are too chickenshit too put the good of the country above their own.
That would be quite an acceptable outcome for me.
  #1155  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:24 AM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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We'd like our wolves back now.
With scarves of red tied ‘round their throats?
  #1156  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:25 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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I agree with the first part; the indictments of Junior and Jared. Plus, it will produce a long list of impeachable and otherwise indictable offenses against Trump, none of which will be addressed until there's a Democratic majority in the House. If Democrats take over after the mid-terms there will be an impeachment in January 2019. If Democrats take over the Senate as well, Trump will be gone by February.
Hate to toss a wet blanket on this but conviction requires 2/3 majority in the Senate. At least some Republicans would have to cast a guilty vote. But we can dream.
  #1157  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:25 AM
Sinaptics Sinaptics is offline
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Originally Posted by Aspenglow View Post
You are not the only one who had those thoughts and worries.

By the way, not sure if you're aware, but one add to that abortion of a tax bill the Republicans are trying to ram through before the end of the year is lifting protections against oil and gas drilling for the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. Fuckers.
Isn't this a policy change? I thought that couldn't be done through reconciliation unless it involved spending, revenue, or debt.
  #1158  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:27 AM
Max Torque Max Torque is offline
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Now that's an angle I haven't previously considered. What if the progression of the investigation produces not only indictments for the bit players, but also large and widespread asset seizure, to the extent that Donnie Two Scoops's empire is whittled away to nothing?

Oh, the gloriousness of that....he might literally burst a blood vessel in rage as his net worth counter ticks toward zero and he has no more assets to violate the emoluments clause with.
  #1159  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:28 AM
Max Torque Max Torque is offline
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With scarves of red tied ‘round their throats?
No. We want heads falling in the snow.
  #1160  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:33 AM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Originally Posted by Rick Kitchen View Post
Trump lawyer Jay Sekulow says there have been no bank records subpoenas.
https://news.sky.com/story/robert-mu...ounts-11157610
Turns out that he was correct and the original source has corrected their story. (The subpoena was for records of people connected to Trump, not Trump himself.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
So, now I'm supposed to believe that Trump Jr. told Hope Hicks about a meeting with Russians to get dirt on Clinton, and Hope Hicks just said, "Whatever, no biggie," and went on with her day and did not tell her boss.
You appear to have completely misunderstood that story.
  #1161  
Old 12-07-2017, 12:17 PM
Happy Lendervedder Happy Lendervedder is offline
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Originally Posted by Max Torque View Post
Now that's an angle I haven't previously considered. What if the progression of the investigation produces not only indictments for the bit players, but also large and widespread asset seizure, to the extent that Donnie Two Scoops's empire is whittled away to nothing?

Oh, the gloriousness of that....he might literally burst a blood vessel in rage as his net worth counter ticks toward zero and he has no more assets to violate the emoluments clause with.
If that were the case, I only wish he were a much younger man so he could experience his shame and poverty for a much longer time.
  #1162  
Old 12-07-2017, 12:43 PM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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If that were the case, I only wish he were a much younger man so he could experience his shame and poverty for a much longer time.
I want to see him pawing through trash for scraps of food while Dylan's Like a Rolling Stone blares in the background.
  #1163  
Old 12-07-2017, 01:03 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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This prospect was put forward by some of our most intelligent and perceptive members. Out of respect for their modesty, I won't name them.
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  #1164  
Old 12-07-2017, 01:05 PM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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I want to see him pawing through trash for scraps of food while Dylan's Like a Rolling Stone blares in the background.
I don't.

But I'd love to hear about it!
  #1165  
Old 12-07-2017, 01:40 PM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Turns out that he was correct and the original source has corrected their story. (The subpoena was for records of people connected to Trump, not Trump himself.)You appear to have completely misunderstood that story.
Thinking the story is ridiculous is not the same as misunderstanding it.
  #1166  
Old 12-07-2017, 02:15 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
Thinking the story is ridiculous is not the same as misunderstanding it.
Right. That's exactly why it's important for you to appreciate that you misunderstood it.

Specifically, you confused the initial meeting (which is what DTJ said he did not communicate to his father) with the later crafting of a response to media reporting on that meeting (which is what DTJ said he discussed with Hope Hicks).

You are not "supposed to believe" that the communication to HH was not relayed to Donald Trump Sr, because no one is making that claim.
  #1167  
Old 12-07-2017, 02:31 PM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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Your serious argument here, is that Trump Jr communicated with Hope Hicks about responding to a meeting with Russians without bringing up the meeting with Russians. That's ridiculous.
  #1168  
Old 12-07-2017, 02:33 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Of course that's ridiculous. But again, no one claimed that.

By the time Trump Jr. was speaking to HH, everyone already knew about the meeting, including Trump Sr. The question of whether Trump Sr was informed about the meeting is about whether he knew about when it happened, during the campaign.
  #1169  
Old 12-07-2017, 04:08 PM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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I agree. Everyone, including Trump Sr already knew about it. We are in agreement. Trump found out about the meeting either directly from Trump Jr, or from Hope HIcks. Which is why this:

"Trump Jr. firmly denied that he had communicated with his father about the June 2016 Trump Tower meeting, according to the sources."

Makes no goddamned sense. Which is why I made the original statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiveyearlurker View Post
So, now I'm supposed to believe that Trump Jr. told Hope Hicks about a meeting with Russians to get dirt on Clinton, and Hope Hicks just said, "Whatever, no biggie," and went on with her day and did not tell her boss. No wonder the talking point has shifted to "collusion isn't illegal" recently.

Last edited by Fiveyearlurker; 12-07-2017 at 04:08 PM.
  #1170  
Old 12-07-2017, 04:10 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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He denied having communicated it to him at the time of the meeting.

Last edited by Fotheringay-Phipps; 12-07-2017 at 04:10 PM.
  #1171  
Old 12-07-2017, 04:48 PM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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He denied having communicated it to him at the time of the meeting.
No. He denied it yesterday. This article is about yesterday.
  #1172  
Old 12-07-2017, 05:00 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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I think you're playing dumb.

The problem is, even then you're not cute ...
  #1173  
Old 12-07-2017, 05:05 PM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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So you figured out where you went wrong. Got it.
  #1174  
Old 12-07-2017, 05:09 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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So you figured out where you went wrong.
Wasting time on you?
  #1175  
Old 12-07-2017, 05:11 PM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
Wasting time on you?
No. You got it when you realized that you misunderstood the article when you posted this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fotheringay-Phipps View Post
He denied having communicated it to him at the time of the meeting.
  #1176  
Old 12-07-2017, 05:13 PM
Fotheringay-Phipps Fotheringay-Phipps is offline
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Pluperfect.

(Look it up - maybe you'll learn something. Maybe.)
  #1177  
Old 12-07-2017, 07:21 PM
Aspenglow Aspenglow is offline
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A question for the Peanut Gallery that needs to be asked at this point:

Will the Mueller investigation ultimately (in the next three years) do mortal damage to thump as president and/or to the thump administration?

Define "mortal damage" any way you want, but share your definition.
Hey, I'll play, since I'm obsessed with this debacle. Member of the Peanut Gallery here, offering optimistic, solicited speculation:

Mueller's investigation will do mortal damage to Trump and his administration.

My definition of "mortal damage" is that Trump will be revealed beyond all reasonable doubt as a traitor and a criminal, and that many if not most in his administration not only supported the conspiracy, but actively participated in it. All will pay a price. It will be a heavy one. It will take some years to fully play out.

I believe that Mueller is extremely strategic. I think he will carve Kushner and Don Jr. out of what he needs to take down Trump, so as to avoid raising Trump's ire more than necessary until he, Mueller, can complete his work to the greatest extent possible. I don't look for Kushner or Don Jr. to be prosecuted until after Trump is out of office. Mueller will have all he needs from other members of the Trump team looking to save their own necks. One hard lesson Trump will soon learn is, few give undying loyalty to those who are unwilling to reciprocate.

I have never expected a Republican congress to move to impeach Trump. But a Democratic House after 2018 mid-terms, along with a few gains in the Senate, will fundamentally shift the conversation. Meaningful congressional investigations will be done rather than the charades (despite best efforts of Dems) we're seeing today.

I remember Watergate and how long it took for the public to really tune in. Though we are fighting against the propaganda media machines of Murdoch, Bannon and others, it's encouraging to see how many people already accept the Russia issue as a serious matter and understand Trump is lying about it. (Most Americans Approve of Trump Russia Probe (WaPo)) This sentiment can only grow throughout 2018 in advance of the mid-term elections as more information is revealed and the public becomes better educated about it. The process feels painfully slow, but things are actually moving quite fast.

If Dems do prevail in 2018, impeachment becomes a real possibility. If they manage to take even just 2 seats in the Senate, moving 21 Republican Senators to take a "principled" stance (under cover of the Mueller investigation, of course) may not be such a high bar.

The 25th Amendment is a potential, but maybe less so than impeachment. I think Pence continues to back Trump only because he is afraid of what Mueller can do to him. Were he freed from that concern, he'd have been pushing for impeachment support among cabinet members in a New York minute. But because of his own legal jeopardy, he continues with his slavish devotion to Trump. Without Pence on board, I think the 25th is less likely.

So...

I believe a very big day is coming. We will have no hint of it until it actually happens. There will be a Bloody Tuesday... Wednesday or Friday, take your pick. Arrests will be carried out, plea arrangements will be revealed.

People whom I feel sure will be scooped up into the net, either via arrest and prosecution or plea: Mike Pence, Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, Sebastian Gorka, K. C. McFarland, Don McGahn, Roger Stone, Carter Page, Jeff Sessions, Rebekah Mercer, Felix Sader, Dana Rohrbacher, Reince Priebus, Hope Hicks, Erik Prince, Michael Cohen and a whole lot of other unfamiliar players whose names aren't much in the news. Some charges will be held in abeyance for the family members, as will applicable state charges. Pence will be one of the first to fall so he will be out of the way to issue any pardon for Trump. Jeff Sessions will be one of the last, because he stands as an unfortunate bulwark against the firing of Mueller.

If my speculative day of reckoning becomes a reality, Trump will then be forced to make some choices, all of them bad: Issue a whole buttload of pardons, all with the baldly obvious intent to obstruct justice; move to fire Mueller, again with the same obvious intent; or simply to let the investigation continue. It is too late for either of the first two options. Pardons eliminate any Fifth Amendment protections for those pardoned -- not a good result for Trump. Also does not preclude state level prosecutions in any way. As for firing Mueller, the investigation is now the embodiment of dozens of institutional employees who are taking all these slurs on their integrity very personally and will go on beyond Mueller. Republicans' feeble attempts to discredit the investigation are already being effectively rebuked by those who have the power to do anything about it, such as Wray, Rosenstein and even Sessions, by his refusal to step down. Moreover at that point, Republicans would likely be forced by dint of public opinion to simply reinstate Mueller in a more protected capacity to carry on with his work.

When Mueller and his team are through with them at last, this cadre of criminals will be demolished. No different than a massive clean-up on Aisle Mafia. No different than Watergate. But for the youngsters, never forget it took more than 2 years for Watergate to result in Nixon's resignation. Also important to remember is that at the end of it all, Watergate resulted in 69 government officials being charged and 48 being found guilty. What is before us now is far more complex and international in its scope. And far more serious than Watergate. Our very democratic republic is at stake. Patience and vigilance required.

It will be interesting to review this post in a couple years to see how on or off the mark I was.

TL; DR: They're all going to burn to the ground. It's going to take awhile.

Last edited by Aspenglow; 12-07-2017 at 07:22 PM.
  #1178  
Old 12-07-2017, 07:32 PM
elucidator elucidator is offline
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From your lips to the Ears....
  #1179  
Old 12-07-2017, 08:03 PM
Aspenglow Aspenglow is offline
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Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
From your lips to the Ears....
Yeah... it's that, or I'll be at your house cadging shots.
  #1180  
Old 12-07-2017, 08:34 PM
enipla enipla is offline
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I sure hope you're right Aspenglow. Watergate was a tea party compared to this.

I was pretty young in the Watergate years. Did not know that 48 where found guilty. That's very good to know.

What will be the name of this if, hopefully, Muller can get this done? It should not be another ____Gate. This is much worse. TrumpGate is no good. Perhaps TrumpRape. The rape of democracy.
  #1181  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:10 PM
Aspenglow Aspenglow is offline
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Isn't this a policy change? I thought that couldn't be done through reconciliation unless it involved spending, revenue, or debt.
I honestly don't think they give a shit anymore about any kind of regular order. They simply say they're conducting regular order, and then do whatever the fuck they want.

Reconciliation is supposed to be revenue neutral as well -- and you can see how little that mattered, as they squeaked a Senate bill through that loads up an additional 1.5 trillion dollars' worth of debt. And that's a "conservative" estimate. Haha.

I've never seen corruption on a scale like we're seeing today. There just doesn't any longer seem to be any backstop to what Republicans will do in furtherance of their greedy authoritarian goals.
  #1182  
Old 12-07-2017, 09:21 PM
The Tooth The Tooth is offline
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I sure hope you're right Aspenglow. Watergate was a tea party compared to this.

I was pretty young in the Watergate years. Did not know that 48 where found guilty. That's very good to know.

What will be the name of this if, hopefully, Muller can get this done? It should not be another ____Gate. This is much worse. TrumpGate is no good. Perhaps TrumpRape. The rape of democracy.
L'Affaire Russe.
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  #1183  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:31 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Thanks for that lucid and well thought out reply, Aspenglow. You gave me some hope.

And also, what elucidator said:
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From your lips to the Ears....
  #1184  
Old 12-08-2017, 12:19 AM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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I'm waiting to wake up to the headline:

Trump declares Imperial Presidency
Pelosi and Schumer arrested, Hillary Clinton's whereabouts unknown
Senate in disarray after new presidential emergency powers decree

Fox News:
Trump in Charge
No need for concern, says Pence
Traitorous Democrats on the Run
  #1185  
Old 12-08-2017, 12:27 AM
Aspenglow Aspenglow is offline
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Originally Posted by enipla View Post
What will be the name of this if, hopefully, Muller can get this done? It should not be another ____Gate. This is much worse. TrumpGate is no good. Perhaps TrumpRape. The rape of democracy.
Your suggestion is very apt, IMHO. I can't think of anything better!!
  #1186  
Old 12-08-2017, 12:33 AM
Aspenglow Aspenglow is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
I'm waiting to wake up to the headline:

Trump declares Imperial Presidency
Pelosi and Schumer arrested, Hillary Clinton's whereabouts unknown
Senate in disarray after new presidential emergency powers decree

Fox News:
Trump in Charge
No need for concern, says Pence
Traitorous Democrats on the Run
We're in for a bumpy 2018, that's sure. I wish your headlines were farfetched, but I fear there are those within this cabal who actually believe such a thing is possible.

We're going to have to fight like hell. Call everyone, protest, donate, keep talking. And vote.
  #1187  
Old 12-08-2017, 01:09 AM
The Tooth The Tooth is offline
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Assuming there are real elections to vote in.
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  #1188  
Old 12-08-2017, 06:34 AM
Vinyl Turnip Vinyl Turnip is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
I'm waiting to wake up to the headline:

Trump declares Imperial Presidency
Pelosi and Schumer arrested, Hillary Clinton's whereabouts unknown
Senate in disarray after new presidential emergency powers decree

Fox News:
Trump in Charge
No need for concern, says Pence
Traitorous Democrats on the Run
And that'll be a side article. The banner headline will be "Man shoots girlfriend in argument over French fries," with a mugshot of some random black guy in St. Louis.
  #1189  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:35 AM
JohnT JohnT is offline
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Hmmmmmm....

Quote:
Candidate Donald Trump, his son Donald Trump Jr. and others in the Trump Organization received an email in September 2016 offering a decryption key and website address for hacked WikiLeaks documents, according to an email provided to congressional investigators.

The September 4 email was sent during the final stretch of the 2016 presidential race -- two months after the hacked emails of the Democratic National Committee were made public and one month before WikiLeaks began leaking the contents of Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta's hacked emails.

The email came less than three weeks before WikiLeaks itself messaged Trump Jr. and began an exchange of direct messages on Twitter. Trump Jr. told investigators he had no recollection of the September email.

Congressional investigators are trying to ascertain whether the individual who sent the September email is legitimate and whether it shows additional efforts by WikiLeaks to connect with Trump's son and others on the Trump campaign. The email also indicated that the Trump campaign could access records from former Secretary of State Colin Powell, whose hacked emails were made public by a Russian front group 10 days later.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/08/politi...nts/index.html
  #1190  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:45 AM
k9bfriender k9bfriender is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
I'm waiting to wake up to the headline:

Trump declares Imperial Presidency
Pelosi and Schumer arrested, Hillary Clinton's whereabouts unknown
Senate in disarray after new presidential emergency powers decree

Fox News:
Trump in Charge
No need for concern, says Pence
Traitorous Democrats on the Run
You are assuming that when you wake up that day, there will be any news outlets other than fox news.
  #1191  
Old 12-08-2017, 08:55 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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You are assuming that when you wake up that day, there will be any news outlets other than fox news.
This sounds facetious, but it isn't too far fetched. This Republican Party does not care about democracy, it exists for the elite to have a permanent stranglehold on power. We're all just waiting for a Reichstag fire type of incident for martial law to be imposed, elections cancelled, and the First Amendment to be "suspended".
  #1192  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:08 AM
JackieLikesVariety JackieLikesVariety is offline
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We're all just waiting for a Reichstag fire type of incident for martial law to be imposed, elections cancelled, and the First Amendment to be "suspended".
exactly, and there WILL be (another) war so rumpy can shoot off nukes. he is just dying to.

  #1193  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:16 AM
Red Wiggler Red Wiggler is offline
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Now that the investigation marches steadily on, finding new dirt every week, the trashing of Mueller begins in earnest. The charges of bias from the sycophants, ridiculous at even a modest glance, are being made to justify the inevitable termination before the crap that even the rabid base won't stand for becomes exposed.
  #1194  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:22 AM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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Incidentally, the deadline to impose sanctions on Russia passed over a month ago. White House has done nothing. Any legitimate reason for this?
  #1195  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:36 AM
kaylasdad99 kaylasdad99 is offline
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Originally Posted by Vinyl Turnip View Post
And that'll be a side article. The banner headline will be "Man shoots girlfriend in argument over French fries," with a mugshot of some random black guy in St. Louis.
Wait. Were they arguing about French fries, or was there an order of French fries on the table between them when they were arguing?

And people say journalistic standards are going UP...

Last edited by kaylasdad99; 12-08-2017 at 09:37 AM.
  #1196  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:39 AM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Originally Posted by kaylasdad99 View Post
Wait. Were they arguing about French fries, or was there an order of French fries on the table between them when they were arguing?

And people say journalistic standards are going UP...
You mean they're not Freedom Fries any more? (I'm so behind the times...)
  #1197  
Old 12-08-2017, 09:47 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is offline
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Incidentally, the deadline to impose sanctions on Russia passed over a month ago. White House has done nothing. Any legitimate reason for this?
Vetoed by Politburo?
  #1198  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:20 AM
Knowed Out Knowed Out is offline
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To be honest, I don't see the GOP's solidarity as a desire to form a power bloc, because it's too tenuous. It's easier for me to believe they're doing their best to cover their own asses, because they know that when it's time to vote, the partisan majority is their best safety net. If they openly criticize their own administration's key figures, they risk losing voter support as well as support for their own bills. Look how McConnell switched course with Roy Moore when it looked like Moore had enough support to win his election, and McConnell is wary of being called RINO. They realize the margin of error is slim (2 votes + Pence) and believe that party unity is the best protection they have, for now. If they lose Senate majority in 2018, then the floodgates will open and the finger-pointing will begin.
  #1199  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:23 AM
running coach running coach is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
You mean they're not Freedom Fries any more? (I'm so behind the times...)
And they will be again. With borscht to dip them in.
  #1200  
Old 12-08-2017, 10:36 AM
Fiveyearlurker Fiveyearlurker is offline
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The fact that right wing media has shifted from “nothingburger” to openly attacking Mueller means they know which way this is headed.


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