Religion and alcohol

[Ego_Mk2]

OK so I was wondering about the abstention from alcohol for religious reasons thing.

I think it's weird (if you're a Christian.) Jesus created the suff for a party! No, not grape juice, wine. It's clearly evident from the context of the passage that it was good old alcoholic wine. He also drank wine at the last supper and it has become a symbol of his blood. Red wine = Jesus' blood. Unless you believe in transubstantiation, in which case it really IS Jesus' blood.

Now I'm not saying you should abuse it, but a few beers every once in a while is not going to send you to Hell. But of course that's IMO.

What do other dopers think?

[Mangetout]

Vast oversimplification ahead...

The Methodist Church (of which I am a member) used to be pretty strongly anti-alcohol, they have relaxed a little recently, but the whole thing came about in an era where people's motives for consuming alcohol were (generally)somewhat different; gin was not a drink to be sipped with tonic, ice and a slice on the deck of your motor launch, it was something that people drunk in quantity in order to become drunk. The modern concept of 'a few quiet beers with your chums' or 'a glass or two of chianti with the sunday roast' simply didn't exist (or were not at all common).

As drunkenness leads to all kinds of debauchery (so it was reasoned), best avoid the stuff altogether.

[StGermain]

I'm Catholic. We don't have a problem with alcohol. Or rather, the consumption of alcohol is not proscribed in my faith. Some Catholics do indeed have a problem with alcohol. We also don't have a problem with dancing or card playing.

StG

[Belrix]

My church has no official policy on alcohol but it's clear from the bible, to me, that drunkeness is un-christian. I extend this within a broader context to say that a drink is fine but don't get intentionally drunk.

IMHO, YMMV, Objects in mirror are closer than they appear, etc.

-B

[Belrix]

Originally posted by StGermain
We also don't have a problem with dancing or card playing. StG

<hijack>

Quick Joke:

Q: Why don't Southern Baptists have sex standing up?

A: People might think they're dancing.

</hijack>

[Crowbar of Irony +3]

The Bible doesn't condemn the drinking of alochol or its related beverage, but rather warns about the dangers of being addicted to the cup.

[Dogface]

My own Church has wine (the real stuff, not mere grape juice) at Communion, and the Retsina flows freely after Easter Liturgy. What is condemned in Scripture is drunkenness, not merely imbibing.

[3trew]

Brief hijack, does anybody know the official Sikh position (if such a thing exists) regarding booze?

[Ego_Mk2]

Ya, I'd like to know the positions of lots of religions if anybody has any non-Christian info.

[yBeayf]

I believe that abstinence from tobacco, alcohol, and other intoxicants is one of the tenants of the Khalsa (Sikhs who are officially confirmed in the faith and wear the 5 K's (things like the long hair, sword, and metal bracelet).

Islam obviously prohibits alcohol.

[3trew]

I always wondered about that, but the fact that we were both getting quietly pissed at 2:00 on a Wednesday afternoon sort of made me reluctant to ask Rupinder if he was also violating a religious tenet.

[Labdad]

I'm Episcopalian. We serve real wine at communion.

You may have heard the old saying: where you find four Episcopalians you'll find a fifth!

[Voyager]

I've never understood why some Christian churches ban alcohol. Clearly Jesus drank wine during the Seder. Could anyone out there explain this?

Interesting fact I learned while touring a winery in New York. Some wineries were open during Prohibition, since sale and consumption of wine for religious reasons was not prohibited.

[MLS]

I've never understood this. Sure, too much alcohol is not good for you. Neither is too much food, or, for that matter, too much water.

Is this attitude prevalent in religions outside of the U.S.? For example, although there are some things I do not admire about France, the sensible approach to alcohol is one that I do. From early childhood, everyone sees people having a drink of wine with a meal, but public intoxication is rude and uncouth. In contrast, too many U.S. college students go from total prohibition to complete excess, feeling obliged to drink as much as possible just to prove their independence before they come to realize that hangovers are neither cool nor fun! Of course a certain number succumb to dependency.

On the other hand, I recall a documentary about a fairly low level of tolerance -- almost to the point of allergy -- among Asians. Interestingly, Buddhism, which developed in that general part of the world, also advises against the use of alcohol.

[Dung Beetle]

I was raised Southern Baptist, and the explanation I was given as to why we shouldn't drink was that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and alcohol is a toxin.

Boy was I embarrassed the Sunday I hurled last night's vodka all over the back pew!

[Eva Luna]

In Judaism, not only is consumption of alcohol permitted, it is required under certain circumstances. A blessing is said over a glass of wine at every religious occasion I can think of (the Sabbath, holidays, weddings, Bar/Bat Mitzvahs (Mitzvot?), etc. Although come to think of it, I haven’t been to a ton of funerals, but I can’t remember any wine being involved with those. Four glasses of wine are a required part of the Passover Seder, and prescribed points in the service/Haggadah reading.

Purim isn’t a holiday my ultra-Reform household ever celebrated much, but one of my co-workers is Orthodox, and her husband is a rabbi. She says her husband makes a point of getting drunk on Purim (he’s not a big drinker, so it doesn’t take much). Apparently this is actually encouraged from a theological perspective. Some more observant Doper should probably expand on this idea, because I don’t know much about it, nor could I give you much theological background on the reasoning behind the requirement for alcohol consumption on various occasions of religious significance.

[Dogface]

Originally posted by Voyager
I've never understood why some Christian churches ban alcohol. Clearly Jesus drank wine during the Seder. Could anyone out there explain this?

During the era immediately pre-Prohibition, and during Prohibition, some people claimed that Jesus drank and created a "non-alcoholic" wine.

Here are some modern-day lunatics who keep claiming this:

http://www.shilohchurchofchrist.com/water_to_wine.htm
http://www.users.bigpond.com/balfourcoc/Ltb/May00.htm

And there are countless other goobers who claim this.

[Dogface]

Originally posted by Dung Beetle
I was raised Southern Baptist, and the explanation I was given as to why we shouldn't drink was that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit and alcohol is a toxin.

So is fried food. But you seem to have recovered from your upbringing.

[burundi]

I'd always heard "your body is a temple" as well. As a sidenote: all of the weddings I went as a child were of Southern Baptist relatives. I was a little shocked when, in high school, I went to a wedding where alcohol was served. It seemed so racy.

[Siege]

I just wanted to say that I'm also curious about whether the anti-alcohol attitude is purely an American one. I live in the US and I'm Episcopalian. My state is very strict about not allowing anyone under 21 to consume alcohol, and they've only recently allowed some liquor stores stores to open on Sundays, yet, as a chalicist, not only have I given alcohol to minors, I've seen a policeman do so in front of the mayor!

To me, the "alcohol is absolutely forbidden until you're 21" attitude doesn't do anything to encourage people to learn how to drink in moderation. I've also been known to point out that if Christ wanted to turn water in to grapejuice, he would certainly have done so. Instead, He turned it into good wine! Certainly, as labdad already said, the only problem the Episcopal Church has with alcohol is running out!

CJ

[amarinth]

Originally posted by Voyager
I've never understood why some Christian churches ban alcohol. Clearly Jesus drank wine during the Seder. Could anyone out there explain this?

Well, drunkenness is does tend to lead to bad things (Eph 5:18), and is generally prohibited.

The current reason I keep hearing is the Romans 14 reason - which is basically, "You may be just fine with alcohol, but Bob isn't. And you know it. Drinking around Bob could cause him to stumble, and it's wrong for you to knowingly do that."

[BrotherCadfael]

Once I was at our priest's house for a Christmas party. He asked me what I would have to drink, and I asked what he had. His reply: "This is a Catholic rectory! We've got everything!"

His bar was indeed remarkably well-stocked.



In Tom Clancy's Bear and the Dragon the Robby Jackson character described once attempting to justify his drinking to his preacher father by pointing out that Jesus drank wine. His father's response was "That may be fine for Jesus, boy, but you aren't Him!"

[c_carol]

Q: Know the difference between a Baptist and a Methodist*?
A: The Methodist will say "hello" to you in the liquor store.

My church is what you might call moderate Baptist. We aren't anti-alcohol, for good reasons that have already been mentioned in this thread. But Southern Baptists have historically been very much against alcohol, and so for most of us drinking just isn't part of our culture. Alcohol at a church wedding, or any kind of church-related function, is just Not Done, period. Other than that, the prevailing attitude (at least among my young-adult crowd) seems to be that light social drinking is OK as long as you joke about what a scandalous, unBaptist thing you're doing.

(*fill in your favorite denomination here)

[cadolphin]

Originally posted by amarinth
Well, drunkenness is does tend to lead to bad things (Eph 5:18), and is generally prohibited.

The current reason I keep hearing is the Romans 14 reason - which is basically, "You may be just fine with alcohol, but Bob isn't. And you know it. Drinking around Bob could cause him to stumble, and it's wrong for you to knowingly do that."

When taking the Sacrament in an LDS meeting, you eat regular bread someone went to the store and picked up probably the day before and it's considered representing the body of Christ.

When it comes to representing the blood of Christ, there is no grape juice, fermented or not. It's regular ol' tap water.

I was raised LDS, but my mother was not an active member of the church and my Dad wasn't a member at all. My Dad came from a strict Methodist family and his parents frowned big time on drinking. My grandfather died when I was 2; my grandmother when I was 4. I remember when we went over to clean out the house. I don't remember it all, but I remember the big commotion when the trapdoor to the attic was opened. Seems my father started drinking when he still lived at home. The access to the attic was in his bedroom. He stuffed his empty bottles up there.

Anyway, my mother started drinking with my Dad when she married him, or at least that's her story, but I remember her mother's (my grandmother's beer game --- that's where I was told to get my mother or grandmother another can and the "game" part was I was supposed to chug as much of that Miller High Life out of that 16 oz can that I could without barfing....and it started when I couldn't have been more then 3 or 4) but that's her story and she's sticking to it. It was grape juice. Although she still insists it was just grape juice. When I was 6 or so I started sneaking the "grape juice".

Confession time:

I am an alcoholic. I've been dry for 7 ½ years, but if I'm around it, I want it. I like the taste, I like the escape, I like it and I want it. So the part about it might not be good for someone around you is very true for me. If I'm not around alcohol I'm ok. If I'm around it, it's incredibly difficult to avoid it.

The official position of the Church is alcohol is to be avoided at all times. It's part of what's called
The Word of Wisdom

Your body is a precious gift from God. To help keep our bodies and our minds healthy and strong, God gave a law of health to Joseph Smith in 1833. This law is known as the Word of Wisdom.
In addition to emphasizing the benefits of proper eating and physical and spiritual health, God has spoken against the use of:

• Tobacco.
• Alcohol.
• Coffee and tea.
• Illegal drugs.

God promises great physical and spiritual blessings to those who follow the Word of Wisdom. Today, the scientific community promotes some of the same principles that a loving God gave to Joseph Smith nearly two centuries ago.

[rumraisin]

As a Christian, I don't think there's anything wrong with wine per se and in fact it's a thing to be enjoyed.

Some schools of thought, when in doubt, tend to steer clear of anything that seems vaguely impious and dangerous. Hence finding reasons to avoid wine entirely. For eg. the wine=drunkenness=bad argument, or the argument that it will stumble people.

But the Bible doesn't always take that stand. Yes, there are exhortations against drunkenness, obviously, and overloading your system with too much of anything is always bad. Well, gluttony is bad too, but food itself is a good thing isn't it?

Similarly, wine is a good thing, and against wine itself there is no law. Cultural taboos and some branches of Christianity are often stricter than the Bible. In the Bible, wine is often spoken of as something to be enjoyed. Wine has a variety of meanings in the Bible, but it's often used as a metaphor for things which are fragrant, intoxicating, joyful and lovely.

For eg. Jesus turned the water into not just a little wine but 12 huge vats of "the best wine"-- seemingly more concerned about letting people have a good time than preventing debauchery and all that!

And when in the Song of Solomon it is said "How much more pleasing is your love than wine!" and that the beloved's mouth is like pleasing wine, flowing gently over lips and teeth. Or in the psalms when it says "Your wife will be like a fruitful vine." -- wine becomes a metaphor for the beauty of romantic love.

Jesus used "old wine" and "new wine" to be symbols of the old and new covenants. He wouldn't have done that if wine was a forbidden substance.

Again, God promises to bring Israel into a land of new wine and vineyards. What's the point of that if he is against drinking?

And I think a lot of Christians are going to be scandalised when we get to heaven and find that there's nothing at the table but the best meat and the finest wine.

[ElwoodCuse]

My favorite Baptist joke: (might be butchered a bit)

Why can't you go fishing with just one Baptist?

He'll drink all your beer.

But anyway, the Catholic church I used to go to had a big beer garden at their bazaar every year, which the preists and nuns never failed to patronize. They also had a German party every year (the church was founded by Germans) with German beer.

[Crowbar of Irony +3]

Originally posted by amarinth

The current reason I keep hearing is the Romans 14 reason - which is basically, "You may be just fine with alcohol, but Bob isn't. And you know it. Drinking around Bob could cause him to stumble, and it's wrong for you to knowingly do that."

[Hi Jack!]
amarinth, and others, you may be interested in this article discussing about the 'Weaker Brother' - http://www.geocities.com/christian_g...n/faga006.html
[/Hi Jack!]

[Siege]

Lost Cause, you can hijack me like that any time -- it's a good and thought provoking article! Of course, anything that adds a few more arrows to my quiver is fine with me.

CJ