Can we really fight ignorance?

[litost]

Well, the Iraq war has been quite polarizing. I respect differing opinions and am always interested in understanding the relative merits of differing thought processes.

Oftentimes, I run into people who strongly support the current admin's policies in Iraq. Fine, each to his/her ideas. But, the rationale I sometimes hear disturbs me:

"They declared jihad on us. We have to be strong and eradicate them" which soon devolves into "We cannot wear kid-gloves, we need to bomb the mosques if that's where they are hiding, hunt them all down to the last one" which can devolve into "Ah, Islam, the religion of peace (smirk)".

That is plain wrong on many levels. Saddam wasn't a distinguished member of AQ. There was little nexus between Saddam (and his political party) and AQ. I use the word "was" because it is possible that AQ have entered Iraq after the US invasion. What worries me is to think that they are not even referring to Saddam's regime. I am afraid to ask who "THEY" are. Is "THEY" the Arab world? Is it Muslims?

I am convinced that there are a large number of people who think this way. I have talked to some in person, and in any debate on any platform in the media, this perspective comes out as a legitimate pro-invasion point when the media does its usual "pro" versus "anti" nonsense. It scares me. Why would there be ignorance on such a large scale? The hatred that this ignorance spawns, the jingoism it engenders... how can it be beneficial to anyone? Where are we going with this misguided bunker mentality?

I am beginning to wonder if ignorance can ever be fought. This is exactly how it must have been going back 2000 years... in every country in every issue in every war. pro and anti fighting each other. It doesn't matter which side is right or wrong. Each side is 110% convinced of its position which leads to ignorance and hatred on at least one side or both. Ignorance and hatred and mindlessness. I don't think ignorance has ever lost or will ever lose. It doesn't seem to have changed.

The worst part is most people on both sides are just like you and me. Good people. But either one or both of them are blinded. Very saddening.

Can we really fight and defeat ignorance?

[Zcrysis]

"Sometimes the things that may or may not be true are the things a man needs to believe in the most. That people are basically good; that honour, courage, and virtue mean everything; that power and money, money and power mean nothing; that good always triumphs over evil; and I want you to remember this. You remember that. Doesn't matter if it's true or not. You see, a man should believe in those things, because those are the things worth believing in."

I believe that fighting ignorance, and the hope that it can someday be defeated, should also be in this list.

[Squink]

Originally Posted by litost

Can we really fight and defeat ignorance?

780,000 years ago, someone figured out how to get a campfire going.
Today most people know how to light a fire.

[SPOOFE]

I am beginning to wonder if ignorance can ever be fought.

Life is a journey, not a destination!

[/cheesy feel-goodness]

[county]

I certainly try to do my part, both here and elsewhere. (It's a struggle)

[Lobsang]

Lies are halfway round the world before the truth has got it's boots on.


(or something like that)

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Squink

780,000 years ago, someone figured out how to get a campfire going.
Today most people know how to light a fire.

Actually, few people have any idea how to light a fire. Most have to use matches or lighters, and even then need considerable luck. Meanwhile, the same sort of ignorance rightly condemned by the OP was displayed by those "enlightened" people who celebrated recently the death of a fundamentalist Christian politician by cancer, for no reason other than he had worked within the same system they are working in to do the same thing they are doing — namely, making his voice heard in accordance with his worldview. They chanted "Gay is great!" rather than "God is great". But it's all the same sort of chest-thumping barbarism.

[furt]

Originally Posted by litost

The worst part is most people on both sides are just like you and me. Good people. But either one or both of them are blinded. Very saddening.

Can we really fight and defeat ignorance?

It's a moment of wisdom from our beloved Jacko...

I’m starting with the man in
The mirror
(ooh!)

The fight starts when we stop thinking that it's always "them" that are ignorant.

[SPOOFE]

Lies are halfway round the world before the truth has got it's boots on.

But that's only because the Truth will royally kick Lies' ass when he finally catches up with 'im. Wouldn't you run halfway around the world if you had some big, scary mo-fo chasin' after you?

Poor Lies. He's so mistreated by Truth.

[county]

Originally Posted by furt

The fight starts when we stop thinking that it's always "them" that are ignorant.

Well, who the fuck else?

[Squink]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

Actually, few people have any idea how to light a fire. Most have to use matches or lighters, and even then need considerable luck. Meanwhile, the same sort of ignorance rightly condemned by the OP was displayed by those "enlightened" people who celebrated recently the death of a fundamentalist Christian politician...

I try to maintain a sense of optimism about the direction of the human race. Please don't destroy that by pointing out the obvious fallacy of my example. If we can't even get fire right after three quarters of a million years, what are the chances of our ever dealing compassionately with our enemies misfortunes?

[SPOOFE]

If it makes you feel any better, Squink, knowledge and compassion don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. I mean, really... Dr. Wily was pretty smart, and all he did was create deathbots to destroy the world.

[Zoe]

I think the banishment of ignorance most often comes from within after many voices and much observation have had time to soften defenses. It requires a skeptical but open mind.

[Blalron]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

They chanted "Gay is great!" rather than "God is great". But it's all the same sort of chest-thumping barbarism.

If they actively caused his death by sawing off his head chanting "gay is great", then I'd be right with you on that point. But they didn't actively work towards his death. All they did was notice that he died of natural causes and celebrated that death. Big difference.

[Oregon sunshine]

It's unfortunate that some folks' idea of "fighting ignorance" consists of insulting everyone who doesn't think the same way they do.

[SPOOFE]

Well, jeez, Ggurl, you're obviously just stupid, to say something like that.

(Kidding, kidding.)

[litost]

Sure, we have made advances in life... but has our thought process really changed? To see people in this era of "information glut" to hold ignorant and hateful opinions is saddening. How can anyone think that in Iraq, the current admin is fighting those who destroyed the WTC and 3000 lives? How can anyone talk mindlessly of "kicking THEIR asses"? How can anyone treat this subconsciously as a religious war? This is a dominant opinion in this country.

ggurl, if you are talking about me, this is not about opinions. This is about facts. Not just the disconnect between AQ and Iraq, not just about ignorant views re:Islam and to treat it as a monolithic religion with a billion jihadis ("the fruit shop owner short-changed me... fucking jihad on him") but also about realizing that a mindless bunker mentality is just what it is: mindless.... it engenders demonizing and hatred and I hope those aren't what you desire.

[Epimetheus]

The problem is that ignorance is 99.99% of life. (heh, ok I made up the percent) Take myself for example. Since June of 2001, I have learned so much. I was out of shape, mentally and physically, working in a dead end job, not reading, playing video games, and basically falling apart, slowly but surely. This message board taught me more than I can ever express in words. It taught me to organize my thoughts, consider other peoples feelings (which I still have to work on, and will hopefully get better), look at things from other perspectives, if I believe in them or not, and to be skeptical, yet remain open minded.

I could not list the many individual things I have actually learned, but the most important is that this site has made me learn to think, and think for myself. I don't just listen to the news and believe it, hook line and sinker. I weigh what is said and look at it in depth. Because of this site, I am not homophobic, racist or angry at the Muslims. It is other people that have decided to try and fight ignorance that I have made a better life for myself. Enrolling in school, reading, learning and picking a path in life that will lead me to be a better person. I am still on that journey of course. Could a man reach such a destination in a mere 3 years?

I think we can fight ignorance. It is fought every day that I log on. For the first step in fighting ignorance is admiting your own ignorance. It is a hard journey, and doubts will arise of course. Don't feel bad for having them. They are part of growing.

[Marley23]

We can fight ignorance, but we can't get Lib a sense of humor.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Blalron

If they actively caused his death by sawing off his head chanting "gay is great", then I'd be right with you on that point. But they didn't actively work towards his death. All they did was notice that he died of natural causes and celebrated that death. Big difference.

"Natural causes" describes a death that is not due to illness or injury. Cancer does not qualify. And not actively working towards his death is a rather skimpy ethical defense. The cheering Palestinians who shouted "God is great" on 11 September, 2001 didn't actively work toward those deaths either. But it still stank.

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Marley23

We can fight ignorance, but we can't get Lib a sense of humor.

Oops, sorry, I forgot. When liberals do stupid shit, we're supposed to just laugh it off.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

"Natural causes" describes a death that is not due to illness or injury. Cancer does not qualify.

Did you go and get stupid or something? That is the definition of "natural causes".

Natural causes is a biological term which describes a state of death which occurs without apparent reason, such as by disease or injury. Death by natural causes occurs almost always in old age.

[gum]

That was a great post, Epimetheus. I agree all the way.

litost, How about all those scary threads against Jewish people? [see 'great debates']. Do you think that to feed stereo-typing Jews and sly accusations towards Israel, helps fighting ignorance? Or do you think these kind of posts will actually feed some sub-concious anti semitism?

Once again, FYI: I'm not Jewish, I'm an atheïst, and a peace-loving left-winger who knows what hating other people can do. No, I shall not use a 'Godwin'

[btw: As alien as Libertarian's thoughts are to me, I do think he has a good sense of humor.]

[Leaper]

Originally Posted by SPOOFE

If it makes you feel any better, Squink, knowledge and compassion don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. I mean, really... Dr. Wily was pretty smart, and all he did was create deathbots to destroy the world.

You just made this thread a brighter place for me.

[Desmostylus]

Originally Posted by Liberal

Oops, sorry, I forgot. When liberals do stupid shit, we're supposed to just laugh it off.

The name change is kinda hard to deal with, Libertarian.Why didn't you change it to something a bit more truthful, like, um, Crazy Fuck?

[Evil Captor]

Originally Posted by litost

I am beginning to wonder if ignorance can ever be fought. This is exactly how it must have been going back 2000 years... in every country in every issue in every war. pro and anti fighting each other. It doesn't matter which side is right or wrong. Each side is 110% convinced of its position which leads to ignorance and hatred on at least one side or both. Ignorance and hatred and mindlessness. I don't think ignorance has ever lost or will ever lose. It doesn't seem to have changed.

The worst part is most people on both sides are just like you and me. Good people. But either one or both of them are blinded. Very saddening.

Can we really fight and defeat ignorance?

The fundamental problem is, while we are fighting ignorance on this message board, the Administration and its friends are using their control of the media to spew ignorance across the American culture. Ignorance isn't just sitting there waiting to be correctly, it's ACTIVELY FIGHTING BACK and it has a MUCH bigger megaphone than we do.

[county]

Originally Posted by ggurl

It's unfortunate that some folks' idea of "fighting ignorance" consists of insulting everyone who doesn't think the same way they do.

Why is that "unfortunate?" Assuming that the individual doing the "insulting" is, in fact, right thinking.

[gobear]

Then maybe we shouldn;t say anything bas about anything that anyone does. ..

We shouldn't judge the members of Al Qaeda who sawed off Nick Berg's head--maybe he was a rude guest to them. Perhaps he threatened them first. .. we just don't know.

The guys who killed Matthew Shephard only did it once and after all, can we judge the entirety of a life by one act? And as a gay man, I'm ashamed that I ever said one mean thing about those poor boys, who were merely expressing their disapproval of homosexuals. If I criticise them, why, I'm just as bad as they are. Just ask the OP.

And shouldn't we just stop trying to impose racial equality throguh the courts? After all, some white people truly believe that non-whites are inferior to them, and since "It doesn't matter which side is right or wrong. Each side is 110% convinced of its position which leads to ignorance and hatred on at least one side or both," shouldn't we allow segregation to be legal again? Remember that no viewpoint is any more right than any other, according to the OP, so every point of view is just as valid as any other, right?

[gobear]

Oh,

does anyone have Fred Phelps' address? I want to send him a contribution to further his work. I'm so embarrassed that I ever commented negatively on his campaign to rid America of the plague of homosexuality. He has every right to keep "making his voice heard in accordance with his worldview," and it's a shame that any gay person should ever contradict him or attempt to combat his activism.

According to Litost and Liberal, Phelps' belief that "God hates fags" is as valid ethically and morally (or maybe even more so ) as my belief that I have a right to live in peace and equality, so in the spirit of absolute fairness I'm going to make reparations and help Fred realize his dream.

[tomndebb]

Originally Posted by QE.D

Did you go and get stupid or something? That is the definition of "natural causes".

You're confusing me, here, Q.
Lib points out that cancer (being a disease) does not qualify as a "natural cause" and you challenge him, pointing out that "natural cause" does not include a specific reason, such as disease.

So, who of the three of us is missing the point, here?

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted by tomndebb

So, who of the three of us is missing the point, here?

Probably me. I seem to have misread that Wikipedia definition at 3:30 in the morning. I'd always counted disease as a "natural cause". *shrug*

My apologies, Lib.

[Captain Amazing]

Originally Posted by gobear

According to Litost and Liberal, Phelps' belief that "God hates fags" is as valid ethically and morally (or maybe even more so ) as my belief that I have a right to live in peace and equality, so in the spirit of absolute fairness I'm going to make reparations and help Fred realize his dream.

While I don't think the two are equally morally or ethically valid, I'll point out that neither statement is ignorant, because, while "God hates fags" is hypothetically a statement of fact, I've got no idea how you'd find out if God actually does, and "Gobear has a right to live in peace an equality", is a value statement, not a factual one.

And, as my personal view, while it's ok to criticize actions, I do find it kind of distasteful to say "X died and I'm glad he's dead", whomever X might be.

[litost]

Originally Posted by gobear

Oh,

does anyone have Fred Phelps' address? I want to send him a contribution to further his work. I'm so embarrassed that I ever commented negatively on his campaign to rid America of the plague of homosexuality. He has every right to keep "making his voice heard in accordance with his worldview," and it's a shame that any gay person should ever contradict him or attempt to combat his activism.

According to Litost and Liberal, Phelps' belief that "God hates fags" is as valid ethically and morally (or maybe even more so ) as my belief that I have a right to live in peace and equality, so in the spirit of absolute fairness I'm going to make reparations and help Fred realize his dream.

I am sorry but I don't see where I ever mentioned what you have just claimed. In fact, I haven't mentioned homosexuality or moral equivalence in any of my posts. Libertarian gave his personal perspective on the OP. Why are you lumping me with what he said?

I have been talking about the bunker mentality fueled by ignorance and hatred. In the fight for securing rights for homosexuals, the ignorance and bigotry solely rests on the side opposing it. There is no moral equivalence.

Epim..., Great post which gives us all hope.

[gobear]

I am beginning to wonder if ignorance can ever be fought. This is exactly how it must have been going back 2000 years... in every country in every issue in every war. pro and anti fighting each other. It doesn't matter which side is right or wrong. Each side is 110% convinced of its position which leads to ignorance and hatred on at least one side or both. Ignorance and hatred and mindlessness. I don't think ignorance has ever lost or will ever lose. It doesn't seem to have changed

This led me to think you saw no diference between pro and anti. Glad to see your clarification.

[hlanelee]

litost When I quit drinking, I learned this:

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

It is the central belief adopted by AA and it is the center of my existance. For the record, they didn't invent it and they don't own it. A guy named Bill said this is wise and spread it. It is called the Serenity Prayer and I have considered it for many hundreds of hours of the last 17 years of my life. I have learned that the only person I can really [b]change[b] is the man in the mirror and that's damned hard sometimes. I try to be well informed and knowledgeable, sometimes I fail. I try to pass factual information to other people, sometimes they learn, sometimes not. Ignorance is ramapant across our little planet, I cannot [b]change[b] that but one bit at a time, often I fail.

[litost]

Originally Posted by gobear

This led me to think you saw no diference between pro and anti. Glad to see your clarification.

There could be ignorance on at least one side or both. But, the bunker mentality seems to exist on both sides. While I hope none of us develop a siege mentality that could potentially lead to hatred, I am more concerned about the hatred that stems from ignorance. Ignorance of plain facts and history. Ignorance that comes from being intellecually lazy. Ignorance that comes from being fanatical and jingoistic.

I think Lib was protesting the hatred and bunker mentality on its own, independent of the relative merits of the individual positions. I wish I could say what he said with conviction, but I can't, not with my own personal shortcomings. But, that would be an ideal we should work towards, as hard as it could be for those who are in the right.

gobear, you don't have to hate your opponents to be politically active and oppose them, right?

[gobear]

Originally Posted by litost

gobear, you don't have to hate your opponents to be politically active and oppose them, right?

No, I don't have to hate them, but I also must never forget that they hate me.

[Marley23]

Oops, sorry, I forgot. When liberals do stupid shit, we're supposed to just laugh it off.

Laughing off stupid shit never killed anybody. And I think you tend to keep your criticism on one side of the aisle.

[litost]

Originally Posted by gobear

No, I don't have to hate them, but I also must never forget that they hate me.

Does that mean you hate them in return?

(Let me reiterate that I strongly believe that your fight is for a just cause)

[gobear]

Originally Posted by litost

Does that mean you hate them in return?

(Let me reiterate that I strongly believe that your fight is for a just cause)

Did you read what I wrote?

I said, "No, I don't have to hate them,"

What part did you not understand?

No.
I,
Don't
Have
To
Hate
Them

So, does not hating them mean that I should sit, hands folded, and do nothing? Because, you know, that if I were to defend my rights as a citizen that might hurt someone's feelings.

[litost]

Thanks for clarifying. I was confused about the "don't have to" part of the sentence.

I don't see why you repeatedly conflate not hating your opposition with folding your hands and not defending yourself.

hlanlee... thanks for sharing your story. My frustration is that we don't seem to have "evolved" en masse when it comes to being inquisitive and not being blinded by ignorance and hatred.

The bigotry against dark skin is still being practiced in parts of the world, albeit in different forms. The bigotry against Muslims and Arabs and Jews is rampant as ever in different parts of the world. Throw in the bigotry against smaller groups like gays and immigrants.

I think immigration is an excellent example. Historically, new groups have always been treated as second-class citizens. It doesn't seem to have changed that much. Just watch Lou Dobbs. It's a mainstream opinion.

[gobear]

I don't see why you repeatedly conflate not hating your opposition with folding your hands and not defending yourself.

That's because there's a double standard at work here.

Bigots can do as they please, picket gay funerals, agitate to have laws drafted to take away ohr rights, and nobody will shit to stop them.

But if gay people agitate in the same way, expose the bigots, then then our putative allies tell us to shut up, don't rock the boat, crawl before we can walk, not to hate. They expect us to fight with our hands tied against an eenmy with no constraints at all.

[litost]

Where are these putative allies who ask you not to fight freely? On this board? Do you encounter them in real life?

I would really like to know why they say so. Because, I can't understand why they would be on your side and ask you not to fight freely.

As for asking you not to hate the opposition, that I can understand. Though, as I said, it could be extremely difficult, especially if you are facing irrational hatred yourself.

[county]

Originally Posted by gobear

That's because there's a double standard at work here.

Bigots can do as they please, picket gay funerals, agitate to have laws drafted to take away ohr rights, and nobody will shit to stop them.

But if gay people agitate in the same way, expose the bigots, then then our putative allies tell us to shut up, don't rock the boat, crawl before we can walk, not to hate. They expect us to fight with our hands tied against an eenmy with no constraints at all.

Oh bullshit. How fucking old are you? Do you remember the Civil Rights Movement? Gays aren't experiencing anything new. The tactics on both sides aren't new. Quit fucking whining. Minorities suffer.

[gobear]

Originally Posted by county

Oh bullshit. How fucking old are you? Do you remember the Civil Rights Movement? Gays aren't experiencing anything new. The tactics on both sides aren't new. Quit fucking whining. Minorities suffer.

You try it for a while, asshole

[TVeblen]

Originally Posted by county

Oh bullshit. How fucking old are you? Do you remember the Civil Rights Movement? Gays aren't experiencing anything new. The tactics on both sides aren't new. Quit fucking whining. Minorities suffer.

What an incredibly fatuous statement, particularly given your pious assertion previously regarding ignorance...

I certainly try to do my part, both here and elsewhere. (It's a struggle)

May I suggest you struggle harder, county?

Extrapolate this one...why should any minority have to suffer? Let's see, mob rule. Why not narrow down existence to a few comfy limits and anybody who doesn't fit is fair game: religion, sexual orientation, skin color, political beliefs, ethnicity, language....gee, doesn't that just sound like a workable goal for civilization!
Call me Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm* (I've been called much worse) but it seems like overall people have made slow, erratic advances when it comes to acceptable behavior. Not in grotty human impulses, but at least in actions.
It's cold comfort to draw comparisons to public executions and torture, Roman slaughter-as-entertainment, etc.
I don't know how much of it can be attributed to actual widespread enlightenment, i.e. actual gut-level, individual respect for "otherness", so much as general acceptance of rules. Maybe that's the best civilization can offer. Make the rules relatively human and just possibly actual comprehension of the wisdom behind the rules might follow. Y'know, sit on hatreds long enough so maybe people might actually listen to one another and think.
Of course that requires that enough people want rules to be fair in the first place.
*
Actually the dyspeptic hermit option is increasingly attractive.

Veb

[Lynn Bodoni]

Originally Posted by county

Oh bullshit. How fucking old are you? Do you remember the Civil Rights Movement? Gays aren't experiencing anything new. The tactics on both sides aren't new. Quit fucking whining. Minorities suffer.

When one has been warned against being a jerk, then one should take pains to NOT be a jerk.

Lynn
For the Straight Dope

[Liberal]

Originally Posted by Gobear

According to Litost and Liberal, Phelps' belief that "God hates fags" is as valid ethically and morally (or maybe even more so ) as my belief that I have a right to live in peace and equality...

Try again, Kimosabe. I produced that Flash presentation.

[Epimetheus]

Lib, whatever differences we have ever had aside, that is a beautiful piece of artwork, and you are a wonderful person. (just a bit...odd sometimes)

[gobear]

Most impressive, [b]Lib].