So my brother was just arrested (a rant)

[Lord Ashtar]

Disclaimer - I'm sure there are people on this board who are police officers by trade. Please take no offense to the sweeping generalizations I am about to make about cops. And I'm not looking for any legal advice, either. I just want to vent.

They've been trying to get him for weeks now. Apparently, he's done something stupid (I'm not going to repeat what he might or might not have done for obvious reasons), and they haven't been able to pin it on him yet. So they come by and arrest him tonight for something else, literally about 10 minutes ago. If he did something wrong, I can't really complain about his getting arrested. If he broke the law, he has to pay for it.

It's one of the officers who responded to the call that I have a problem with. This asshole walks right into my house without a search warrant. He remains in the house, even when they have my brother and he is asked to leave. He refuses to provide his name and badge number when asked (which he is required to as I understand it), and is condesending prick the entire time he is here. He tells my brother to "go ahead and eat his cookies" (I don't understand it either). When asked to leave, I offer him a hearty "Fuck you!" He turns around and says, "You want to try me?"

Anyway, to the bastard pig with the shit-eating grin who just violated my constitutional rights...I'm really too pissed to come up with a really good insult right now, so I will just offer one that the great George Carlin once offered to a heckler:

If I ever see you again, I'll grab your ass and throw you out on the street where you belong, with your mother. And I'm fucking her in the asshole every night anyway. So fuck you and your wife and your sister. If you have a kid, I hope your fucking kid dies in a car fire.

Hell hath no fury like that of an intelligent United States citizen with a legitimate lawsuit.

[Coldfire]

Well, it could be argued that wishing his kid a fiery death is anything but intelligent.

[Ringo]

That's all a little vague. Were they in hot pursuit?

BTW, I don't know how much experience you have with real life, but you just got about the mildest response one can realistically expect from tossing a "Fuck you!" at a cop.

Good luck with it all.

[techchick68]

Well, um, you don't make it clear but if he has a warrant out for his arrest and they know where he is, to the best of my knowledge a cop can legally enter a private residence if they know the party is there.

I turned someone in not too long ago. He violated parole and they were able to gain entry into the house to place him in handcuffs.

Just something to think about. He/she doesn't require a search warrant but simply an arrest warrant.

[Bricker]

What cause of action will your lawsuit specify, and what constitutional rights of yours were violated?

[Mac Guffin]

I think Lord A's location says it all.

[wring]

Originally posted by techchick68
I turned someone in not too long ago. He violated parole and they were able to gain entry into the house to place him in handcuffs.

Just something to think about. He/she doesn't require a search warrant but simply an arrest warrant.

careful - in my jurisdiction, if the person is on parole, it's a different situation totally than for some one who's not on supervision. The supervising parole agent can order the person detained, w/o a warrant. But, to arrest some one who isn't on supervision, a police officer generally needs either a warrant or probable cause at the time.

[Gatopescado]

A guy I work with has "Scorned Woman Hot Sauce" that he uses in his Chili.

_______________
Fagjunk Theology: Not just for sodomite propagandists anymore.

[yme]

Originally posted by Bricker
What cause of action will your lawsuit specify, and what constitutional rights of yours were violated?

The police had his brother in custody, and he refused to leave.

[Ethilrist]

Originally posted by yme
The police had his brother in custody, and he refused to leave.

... loitering?

You're going to sue a cop for loitering?

[wring]

Originally posted by yme
The police had his brother in custody, and he refused to leave.

it's not clear from the OP, he mentions 'asked to leave and refused' twice, once adding in the hearty 'fuck you' to the cop.

so I don't know if there were two requests to leave or a request to leave w/a 'fuck you' following it, and how long after the cop left (I think it's a given that the cop did actually leave). in addition, the OP adds that after the hearty 'fuck you', the cop turned around which kinda sounds like the cop may have been on his way out the door when the OP decided to give additional incentive to stay. I would hope the OP gives some clarification on what behavior constituted "refused to leave" (which isn't the same, by the way, as "immediately running out of the establishment).

[White Lightning]

Originally posted by Bricker
What cause of action will your lawsuit specify, and what constitutional rights of yours were violated?

Why, his constitutional right not to have cops be condescending while making an arrest.

Haven't reviewed your Bill of Rights lately, have ya?

[catsix]

For what reason would the cops remain in his house after having the suspect (the brother) in custody and being asked twice to leave?

Unless they were executing a search warrant, they really had no reason to remain in the house after the OP's brother was in custody, right? So what legal principle would allow them to stay in the house after being asked by the resident to leave?

[wring]

it's not clear (from the OP) that they remained in the house for any legally significant period of time, nor the manner in which they were asked to leave. If, for instance, it went:

guy taken out in handcuffs, one officer lagging behind (not unusual, sometimes family members have questions for them, 'where will he be taken?' 'when would he go before the judge' etc.), and the OP says "get out" followed by a "get out fuck you!", at which point cop turns around and says something in return, I'm not seeing any particular violation of law. according to the OP, the cop 'turned around' to answer his 'fuck you', which suggests to me, anyhow, that the cop may have been heading out the door.

at any rate the OP gives no particular time frame except that the arrest was "10 minutes ago" and he was able to then get back to the computer and post about it. So, unless the cop was still there (and it doesn't appear to have been likely), the entire thing tookabout 10 minutes. Not sure that any action would be taken against a cop that took all of ten minutes to arrest a guy and leave the premises.

[CRorex]

Having no idea what the OP's brother was arrested for... I'm going to make an assumption here.

If my partner just arrested someone and was taking him to the squad car, I'd make DAMN sure I was watching everyone else in the house just incase some family member wanted to get the prisoner released with ... say a shotgun.

[Troy McClure SF]

Am I the only one who saw this?

He refuses to provide his name and badge number when asked (which he is required to as I understand it)

Is this, in fact, required?

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by techchick68
Just something to think about. He/she doesn't require a search warrant but simply an arrest warrant.

True. But if the person for whom they have a warrant is arrested outside the house, do they have any reason to come into the house?

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by Ethilrist
... loitering?

You're going to sue a cop for loitering?

Ha, that would be funny, wouldn't it? If anything, probably for coming in the house uninvited and without a search warrant and then refusing to leave. That's kind of up to my pops though, as it's his house.

BTW, he was the intelligent person I was referring to. Anyone who reads my posts on this board can tell I am anything but intelligent. A quick glance at my postings in GD should be proof enough of that.

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by White Lightning
Why, his constitutional right not to have cops be condescending while making an arrest.

Haven't reviewed your Bill of Rights lately, have ya?

All other things aside, did he really have to be such a condesending prick to people he wasn't arresting?

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by wring
it's not clear (from the OP) that they remained in the house for any legally significant period of time, nor the manner in which they were asked to leave. If, for instance, it went:

guy taken out in handcuffs, one officer lagging behind (not unusual, sometimes family members have questions for them, 'where will he be taken?' 'when would he go before the judge' etc.), and the OP says "get out" followed by a "get out fuck you!", at which point cop turns around and says something in return, I'm not seeing any particular violation of law. according to the OP, the cop 'turned around' to answer his 'fuck you', which suggests to me, anyhow, that the cop may have been heading out the door.

at any rate the OP gives no particular time frame except that the arrest was "10 minutes ago" and he was able to then get back to the computer and post about it. So, unless the cop was still there (and it doesn't appear to have been likely), the entire thing tookabout 10 minutes. Not sure that any action would be taken against a cop that took all of ten minutes to arrest a guy and leave the premises.

The "fuck you" came after what I felt were several unnecessarily condesending and just generally assholish comments from the guy. And the 10 mintues was kind of figurative. I tried to calm down for around 30-40 minutes, before I figured writing things down might help.

[GusNSpot]

Was the arrested guy gone from the scene? If not, then the question of watching for a violent reaction from family might make a lot more sense and if the non-arrested brother was visibly upset and not shouting that it was a good riddance for the arrested brother to be cuffed, then worrying about family retaliation and getting into a position, (inside enough to see what the non-arrested ) brother was doing sounds like a safety move on the cops part.

No matter what is said, the cop should not have turned and replied. Would require a real tough, level headed, secure, well trained, well supervised policeman to not do it though.

YMMV

[techchick68]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
True. But if the person for whom they have a warrant is arrested outside the house, do they have any reason to come into the house?

Well, based on your OP I had no idea that your brother was arrested outside the house.

There may have been extenuating circumstances that the cop felt he needed to come in. Since none of us are privy to the reason for your brother's arrest I think many of us will go on assumptions. Also, I think they can go into a home at the place of arrest to make comments on the arrest report which might be germane to the case. In which case may help your brother, depending upon the reason for his arrest.

Keep in mind that in some cases, depending on the arrest warrant, a cop may need to look around enough to ensure that there isn't any evidence. Since you were hanging out with (regardless if he was your brother or not) a wanted person, they came to arrest him, your property becomes subject to some scrutiny.

Do I agree with that? No. However, given the current state of laws, an officer simply walking through your home, while the alleged criminal is being detained by another cop, it is reasonable to figure it may happen. Had he gone through your drawers, closets, etc...then that would be illegal search.

Be pissed off all you want but I am sure the cop in question will have a good enough reason for a judge to push it through with little or nothing. I think this would be especially so if drugs, burglary or homocide were involved. All different levels of crimes but especially if it were drugs, a cop wants to see if there's any visible drug paraphenalia, if so, he scores another one.

Unfortunately, with our current justice system, we are guilty until proven innocent.

Oh, and telling the cop "Fuck You" is not a wise choice no matter how upset you are.

[astro]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
Disclaimer -Hell hath no fury like that of an intelligent United States citizen with a legitimate lawsuit.

You know you've got a point Lord Ashtar. Some might read your missive and think to themselves "Man alive Spanky, you're lucky the man didn't beat your silly punk ass like a bongo and take you in along with your brother just for public stupidity", while others would stand in anxious awe of the thunderclap of righteous justice you will soon unleash on the hapless law prole for unnecessary condescension and making insufficient haste in vacating your domicile. But which position to take? Tsk….decisions, decisions.

[Monty]

techchick: Can you provide a cite to show that the major presumption of our justice system has been switched? AFAIK, the prosecution still has to prove the case, not have you disprove it.

[sleestak]

Lord Ashtar,

I have some questions.

First, did the cops enter your house in pursuit of your brother? I want to be clear on this point, did the police chase your brother into your house? (From your OP it doesn't sound that way but I have to ask) If not, did you willingly let the cops in? Did the cops have a warrent? If the answer to these questions is 'no' you probably have a decent case against the cops.

I've had some bad experiences with cops, in fact I got three fired a long time ago. Cops can and do often stretch the law. If that is the case sue them.

Slee,
Though I do appreciate the good cops that are out there.

[Bricker]

An officer making an arrest is legally permitted to search the person he's arresting, as well as the area surrounding the person he's arresting, without a warrant. This is called a "search incident to arrest" and is one of the exceptions to the warrant requirement.

And since the elusive 28th Amendment, "The right of the people to be free from condescending police officers shall be secure," does not appear in my copy of the Constitution... I'm still wondering what constitutional violation occured here.

- Rick

[Meatros]

Originally posted by Troy McClure SF
Am I the only one who saw this?

Is this, in fact, required?

I second this question. Does anyone know if they have to give out their badge number and name? I would assume they would have to.

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by sleestak
Lord Ashtar,

I have some questions.

First, did the cops enter your house in pursuit of your brother? I want to be clear on this point, did the police chase your brother into your house? (From your OP it doesn't sound that way but I have to ask) If not, did you willingly let the cops in? Did the cops have a warrent? If the answer to these questions is 'no' you probably have a decent case against the cops.

In answer to your questions, he was picked up in the backyard, where he ran when he saw the cops pull up in front of the house. I have no problem with them going back there to get him, as they did have a warrant for his arrest.

They knocked on the front door and pushed right past my other brother, who answered the door. They did not have a search warrant for the house.

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by Bricker
An officer making an arrest is legally permitted to search the person he's arresting, as well as the area surrounding the person he's arresting, without a warrant. This is called a "search incident to arrest" and is one of the exceptions to the warrant requirement.

- Rick

What exactly constitutes the "area surrounding the person he's arresting"? If the person is arrested outside, does that mean that they can search the house he came out of?

[White Lightning]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
All other things aside, did he really have to be such a condesending prick to people he wasn't arresting?

Not at all. I'm sure he was a gigantic asshole.

There's no law against that, though. And it didn't violate any of your "constitutional rights," which was the question my remark was in response to.

[sleestak]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
In answer to your questions, he was picked up in the backyard, where he ran when he saw the cops pull up in front of the house. I have no problem with them going back there to get him, as they did have a warrant for his arrest.

They knocked on the front door and pushed right past my other brother, who answered the door. They did not have a search warrant for the house.

Well, my understanding is that the cops have a legal right to search the house where they found your brother with the situation you described. The reason is simple, it's called hot pursuit.

If the cops were chasing your brother and he enters a house or could have possibly passed contraband into a house the cops have the right to enter the house. It's called probable cause.

While you are angry with the cops I think you are missing the point. If your brother is accused of doing something illegal and your brother is running from the cops I think your brother is the person you need to be pissed at.

Cops do thier jobs. Sometimes they piss off regular peopele. Some times they are wrong. But, from what I have read, it sounds like your brother isn't an innocent person.

Slee

[Lord Ashtar]

Originally posted by sleestak
Cops do thier jobs. Sometimes they piss off regular peopele. Some times they are wrong. But, from what I have read, it sounds like your brother isn't an innocent person.

Slee

I don't disagree with that, and I am quite pissed at my brother, believe me. I guess I just figure that since "police officer" is the guy's chosen profession, then he shouldn't be an asshole to me if he thinks his job sucks. Kind of like the customer service rep who hates his/her job and takes it out on the customer. Sure, you hate your job. I would hate it, too. That's why I do something else for a living.

[Lord Ashtar]

And yes, I do remember that I offered him a hearty "fuck you". That came after he was an asshole, not before.

[Ferrous]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
And yes, I do remember that I offered him a hearty "fuck you". That came after he was an asshole, not before.

Yeah, but it was still a really stupid thing to do. You do realize that, don't you?

[lorinada]

Originally posted by Meatros
I second this question. Does anyone know if they have to give out their badge number and name? I would assume they would have to.

In all of our surrounding cities, the uniformed police officers wear clearly visible nametags and their numbered badges on their shirts. Any dealings I have ever had with the police, if the officer is a plainclothes detective, I or another family member has gotten a card with the detective's name and badge number on it, or a police report with that identification. One time the officer answered a call I made and even though he was uniformed he also gave me card.

I know this doesn't answer your question. My point is that I have never, ever, even had to ask for a name and badge number, it has always been provided one way or another. I would think that would be SOP for any police force in any situation.

[kambuckta]

I'd say you were lucky to get off with a "You wanna try me?" from the officer concerned.

It never ceases to amaze me that those who have the most whingey complaints about the coppers are those who are 'guilty' of giving them a hard time in the first place. I'm NOT condoning blatant police misbehaviour, but it very rarely happens that a citizen who has done *nothing* wrong gets the short end of the baton from a walloper.

Your brother was arrested on your property. You are at least implicated by association, so giving the cop a mouthful was ill-advised, not only from your perspective but from the angle of your brothers welfare as well.

I suggest you drop your belligerence before you have dealings with the constabulary again....it doesn't help anybody really.

[Tony Montana]

First of all COP stands for "Constable On Patrol"..I know because my uncles ex-wife's new husband's mechanic used to be a COP(OK OK enough with that schtick)

Did they chase him there?

If not they apparently knew he was there..

[The Ryan]

Originally posted by Ethilrist
... loitering?

You're going to sue a cop for loitering?

No, the situation as described is trespassing. And if it happened in New York and the cop was carrying a gun, it's a felony.

sleestak
[qoute]If the cops were chasing your brother and he enters a house or could have possibly passed contraband into a house the cops have the right to enter the house. It's called probable cause. [/quote]
How do you get from "possible" to "probable"?

[Tony Montana]

[quote]Originally posted by The Ryan
[b]No, the situation as described is trespassing. And if it happened in New York and the cop was carrying a gun, it's a felony.
[quote]

I dont see that. The C.O.P.'s persued him through the house, no? Or at least one COP figured he entered the backdoor into the house..

[Bricker]

Originally posted by Lord Ashtar
In answer to your questions, he was picked up in the backyard, where he ran when he saw the cops pull up in front of the house. I have no problem with them going back there to get him, as they did have a warrant for his arrest.

They knocked on the front door and pushed right past my other brother, who answered the door. They did not have a search warrant for the house.

If he ran out of the house into the back yard, then a search incident to arrest would include the home. No additional warrant would be needed.

The Ryan's ideas about trespass in that situation are, needless to say, ill-founded. If the police enter your property pursuant to an arrest warrant, there is no trespass.

- Rick

[matt_mcl]

And COP does not stand for constable on patrol. It is short for copper, as in copper buttons worn by the earliest cops.

[The Ryan]

Originally posted by Bricker
The Ryan's ideas about trespass in that situation are, needless to say, ill-founded. If the police enter your property pursuant to an arrest warrant, there is no trespass.

Entering the premises legally is not a defense to trespass. If the cop received a legal order to leave from the owner of the house, and he failed to do so, then he was trespassing. You may not believe that the order was legal, but I said "the situation as described is trespassing". While there may be additional informmation which explains why it was not legal, on the basis of the OP the order was legal.

Matt: I think you've been whooshed.

[Monty]

I think you just might be mistaken, The Ryan. Please explain to a layman, me, how an order issued in order to assist someone evade lawful pursuit of law enforcement authorities is lawful. I would imagine that such an order would, itself, be a crime.

[The Ryan]

First, please explain to me how an order issued after a person has been caught would help someone evade pursuit.

[Monty]

Interfering with the Lawful Performance of a Police Officer's Duties.

But, then, that's just my best guess.

Your turn.

[Bricker]

Originally posted by The Ryan
Entering the premises legally is not a defense to trespass. If the cop received a legal order to leave from the owner of the house, and he failed to do so, then he was trespassing. You may not believe that the order was legal, but I said "the situation as described is trespassing". While there may be additional informmation which explains why it was not legal, on the basis of the OP the order was legal.

Um... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

With that out of my system, the facts are that the suspect exited the house into the back yard, where he was arrested. Under those facts, the police are entitled to conduct a search incident to arrest without a separate search warrant. Nor may the homeowner evade the search by ordering the police to leave under threat of trespass. Nor is it trespass at all; trespass is the entry or continued presence on the real property of another without legal authority or permission. The execution of a search warrant, arrest warrant, search incident to arrest, administrative inspection, and community caretaking are some of the legal authorities that permit an entry or presence without permission of the owner.

So... no, The Ryan, you're wrong.

- Rick

[Zabali_Clawbane]

I still think the officer should get written up,because he was asked for his name,and badge number,and he did not supply either peice of information. In the towns I have lived in,it is regulation/S.O.P. that if an officer is asked for this information,he HAS to provide it. A citizen has the legal right to challenge the apparent validity of a policeman's badge. There are people who pretend to be cops,to pull scams and such,and this is why the rule was made. Also,there are situations where the person may be unable to read the officer's badge,for instance if the person is blind. I think the officer's supervisor should hear of the refusal to identify himself,and that the officer should get a reprimand.


As for the rest of it,I agree with the others who have said that being beligerent to an officer of the law was unwise. I can understand that you would be upset,if the guy really was making an ass of himself. You could have phrased your irritation more eloquently. Maybe he has been reprimanded for being insensitive before,and this is why he did not supply his identifying numbers? Public relations is part of the job,if you are a police officer. Yeah,the cops are human,but they ARE held to a higher standard when in uniform. My dad's good friend told me once "I'm a PEACE officer,I work on keeping the peace,not breaking it." I think both cop,and citizen could have controlled their belligerence better.

[The Ryan]

Monty: was that intended as an answer to my question? Because I don't see how it's relevent (besides being a sentence fragment).

Bricker: the OP made no mention of a search. I therefore stand by my original assertion that "the situation as described is trespassing." [emphasis added for the reading impaired]

[Bricker]

Is it your idea, The Ryan, that immediately upon entering the home, the officer must begin searching, perhaps wearing a sandwich board that says, "I AM CONDUCTING A SEARCH INCIDENT TO ARREST," and ringing a handbell?

The situation in the OP is NOT trespass, because under the facts in the OP, the officer has legal authority to be in the home. Presence on the real property of another under legal authority is not trespass. Period.

Included in the procedure to conduct a warrantless search under those circumstances is the legal authority to secure the premises. Officers may briefly restrain others in the area. They may await the arrival of backup. They may stand around while other officers complete these tasks. None of this delay converts the legally authorized presence of the officer into trespass.

I grant that at some extreme end, an officer's presence may become a trespass. Hours after the suspect is carted away and the search completed, if the cop is in your Barcalounger with chips and a beer watching The Sopranos, after being ordered to leave, I agree we might get to trespass.

But the situation as described (heh heh heh) is by no means trespass.

- Rick

[Cheesesteak]

I just think it's really sad that so many posters think that L.A. "got off easy" wrt his fuck off. As if the cop somehow has the right to hassle, threaten, or arrest a person for mouthing off. No wonder so many people hate cops, apparently they are free to wield their considerable power against innocent people who irritate them.