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  #1  
Old 06-03-2003, 05:34 AM
Malacandra is offline
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Could you please stop making gay men look like screechy, hissy drama queens?


Hmm? Oh, nothing, really. It's just that apparently Esprix figures that if some guy makes a remark that he, Esprix, finds boorish, apparently he's entitled to figure that the boor in question is tarring all of straight mankind - so I thought I'd see if what's sauce for the goose is gravy for the faggot. Pile right on.

Yes, I know "sauce for the gander" is the usual expression, but faggots are very often served with gravy over here - and they're delicious that way - so I think the idiom still works.
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  #2  
Old 06-03-2003, 05:37 AM
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Very good pun.

You will be flamed for it.
  #3  
Old 06-03-2003, 05:49 AM
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S'okay. I saw the sign on the door when I came in.
  #4  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:00 AM
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Wearing the cool shades won't help ya..
  #5  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:07 AM
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Are those little sunglasses? I always thought they were gaping eye sockets. Learn something new every day!
  #6  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:17 AM
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Fuck.

So, Manhattan is winning in the pit thread race for Mods and Esprix is seriously in the running for homo posters.

Now... why is Esprix here again?

Because some asshole gets offended that Esprix explains why something offends him.

The boy can't fucking win for losing.

If he expects tolerance towards gays and transgendered, also expecting offensive terms not to be used he is politically correct and nitpicking.

If someone just flings a term into a debate and he says something he's screeching and you "think" that gives you the "right" to call him a faggot, you festering pustule on a demon's rectum.

Do the internet a favour and shut your computer down and cut all the cables to reduce temptation.
  #7  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:26 AM
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See, I told you so.
  #8  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:31 AM
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Pah, that's like predicting the sun rising in the east. No points for you jjimm.

Now to really wind up Mockingbird we need Scylla to post some general agreement to the OP.
  #9  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:32 AM
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Scylla can be annoying. Scylla doesn't pander to slime just to entertain others with a firestorm of wrath.

Get a hobby, Gary, and move on.
  #10  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird
pander to slime just to entertain others with a firestorm of wrath.
I don't suppose there's the slightest chance you can tell me what the fuck you're talking about?
  #11  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gary Kumquat
I don't suppose there's the slightest chance you can tell me what the fuck you're talking about?
Read the sentence for context.

A dictionary can help you understand the words bigger than three letters.

Reading is fundamental.
  #12  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:54 AM
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Hello Mockingbird,

Please note that I used the word faggot only in the context of a wordplay on a well-known phrase or saying. True, the pun only works because of the generally-understood meaning of the word in reference to homosexuals, but I submit that this is not directly equivalent to using it as a term of opprobrium. When I wish to call someone a faggot directly, I'll gladly undertake to see that there's no possible room for doubt.

As a straight man myself, I take considerable exception to being branded an "ignorant fuck", even by association. Yes, I do consider that this gives me the right to repay the perpetrator in his own coin. I may elaborate on this later. Do I consider that Esprix has no right to express himself at all? No, of course I do not.

Now, as to your demon's rectum reference, here's another well-known phrase or saying for you to reassemble out of its component parts: (a Christmas fuck Go tree with yourself). Time allowed: thirty seconds.

GK, I assume, from context, that I'm the one who's pandering, and by deduction, you must be slime *blinks*. I'm sure MB can explain if I'm wrong.
  #13  
Old 06-03-2003, 06:57 AM
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Can we have a link please?

(Mockingbird - have an auld read of this.)
  #14  
Old 06-03-2003, 07:09 AM
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Well Malacandra, as a straight male, I don't think you need to worry about being branded 'an ignorant fuck' by association.
  #15  
Old 06-03-2003, 07:41 AM
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Care to elaborate, Who_me?... or do you think your marvellous witticism makes your point all by itself?
  #16  
Old 06-03-2003, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird
Read the sentence for context.

A dictionary can help you understand the words bigger than three letters.

Reading is fundamental.
Ah Mockingbird, such wit. Now if we can just accept for a second that my reading level is reasonable, could you please explain just who you think does "pander to slime just to entertain others with a firestorm of wrath", perhaps with an example of such behaviour?
  #17  
Old 06-03-2003, 08:45 AM
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UK Dopers,

I know you guys probably mean no harm, but just FYI, in the US calling a gay man "faggot" is as hurtful and ugly as calling a black man a "nigger" or a Jew a "kike." Yes, Esprix shouldn't have said that one man's comment tars all straight men, but that is no excuse for using the most hateful epithet you can throw at a gay man.

"Faggot" is the word one hears when a beer bottle is thrown at one from a moving car; it's the word you hear when you is hit on the back of the head with a chain as you come out of a gay bar.

I know you think you are just hoisting Esprix by his own petard, but I don't think you quite comprehend the raw visceral hatred of gay men that word reflects. That word is meant to make us feel subhuman and powerless. Please think before you use it to attack another gay man here. Thank you.

your friend,

Gobear.
  #18  
Old 06-03-2003, 08:48 AM
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Oh, for fuck's sake. There were people complaining about the unnecessariness of that thread (which I disagree with, by the way) and your solution is to make ANOTHER one?

Chill out. Go get a hobby or something. Esprix did not transgress greatly if he did transgress at all.
  #19  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:08 AM
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Esprix/Gobear,

I apologise for any offence any of my comments in this thread have caused.
  #20  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird
Scylla can be annoying. Scylla doesn't pander to slime just to entertain others with a firestorm of wrath.
I'll take this as a compliment. I've had few enough recently and feel a little down.

As for the OP:

Yes I suppose technically, semantically, straight men in general are implicated by Esprix's comment.

Big frickin' deal. No offense was clearly intended. None need be taken. No autopsy, no foul.

Nothing to see, here.
  #21  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:13 AM
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"Gah! We can't say anything offensive anymore! But it's so much fun! ...What? Oh, well, if you want to get technical, we can, but someone will try to shut us up! ...Oh, okay, you're right, they can't shut us up per se, they'll just say they're upset. Why don't they just shut up about being upset?!"
  #22  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:20 AM
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Matt:

I believe you may have misread my post. I'm on your side of this one.
  #23  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:22 AM
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gobear, I apologise. Not for the first time in my life, I have let the lure of a piece of smart-alec humour cloud my judgement. It wasn't intended as an attack, btw. I originally intended to use the familiar figure of speech and posted a revised version because it struck me as funnier.

In excuse I can only say that, though faggot is by no means a term of endearment in the circles I'm used to, neither is it an out-and-out hate word, and since I would neither bottle someone nor hit them with a chain for the crime of being gay, I find it hard to remember that other people do, or what they say when they do it.

Once again, I apologise for the bad word. Your moderate and reasoned response deserves nothing less.

Best,

M.
  #24  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:29 AM
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One of the things I love the most about this board is that it is completely unlike other general interest boards I've been to. There's an overall lack of the kind of boorish, idiotic behavior that I find on other boards when it comes to gays or lesbians. (Heck, I won't even mention my orientation in passing, because I know it'll result in at least one or two assholes offering to participate or telling me how sick I am.) And I think a lot of the difference is because this board has more vocal homosexual posters who aren't afraid to call foul when someone makes a nasty or just smartassed comment.

Right on, Esprix, and matt_mcl, and andygirl, and all the other posters who are here and queer.
  #25  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:35 AM
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Malacandra and Gary Kumquat, thank you.
  #26  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:37 AM
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It's down to the old cultural difference (see the "cunt" thread) again.

I too am chastened by gobear's comments. But just to show that the word "faggot" can raise a smile in US gay circles, I quote from Eve in the thread I cited:
Quote:
I have forwarded this to several gay friends, who have all injured themselves laughing, I might add. Upon learning that "more than 10 million faggots are eaten every day in the UK," my friend Terry is applying for a green card.
  #27  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:47 AM
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Quite aside from which, what's wrong with being a screechy hissy drama queen anyhow?
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  #28  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:55 AM
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Don't get me wrong, mearlchan. gobear reasonably invited me to distance myself from the kind of language associated with gay-bashing, as in for-real physical assault - and as I despise anything of the sort, I was more than happy to apologise unreservedly.

The behaviour alluded to in the OP however is another kettle of fish...

jjimm, there's also a reference in LOtR ("The Ring Goes South") to "the last faggot was thrown on the fire". That gave me a chuckle the last time I read it... I hope I don't really need to insert a disclaimer here?
  #29  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:58 AM
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I read the other thread and I don't see where the offence came from.

Maybe I'll try and look again.
  #30  
Old 06-03-2003, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AHunter3
Quite aside from which, what's wrong with being a screechy hissy drama queen anyhow?
Spoken by someone unfamiliar with Bobby Trendy.
  #31  
Old 06-03-2003, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Malacandra
Don't get me wrong, mearlchan. gobear reasonably invited me to distance myself from the kind of language associated with gay-bashing, as in for-real physical assault - and as I despise anything of the sort, I was more than happy to apologise unreservedly.
My post wasn't responding to your faggot comment. It was just a general response that I don't see anything bad about Esprix's behavior, and in fact I'd rather see overzealousness in opposing rude and homophobic remarks than see them posted all over the place.

As for jjimm's comment, I think the reason that was so funny is because it's also a bit shocking. Sort of like finding out "nigger" is a food product in another language. Members of the group the word is aimed at might find it funny amongst themselves, but it really is a VERY nasty word in the US. Probably the worst word used towards gay people.
  #32  
Old 06-03-2003, 11:13 AM
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Gosh, I kind of like the word "faggot." I especially like the variation in pronunciation one can get. My two favorites are the very clipped and the streched out "faaaa-git."

Now "fag" I don't like. Probably because the nasal a most midwesterners give it make the word sound somehow...incomplete to my ear.
  #33  
Old 06-03-2003, 12:33 PM
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Are we finished now?

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  #34  
Old 06-03-2003, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by AHunter3
Quite aside from which, what's wrong with being a screechy hissy drama queen anyhow?
Oh please... do you want that indexed? Better yet have pity on the message board, even hamsters on steroids have their limits.

The OP was amusing. Didn't get the pun though, dunno what faggot is besides a slur. By the way if Esprix could get over himself, that would be nice.
  #35  
Old 06-03-2003, 03:02 PM
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Evidently not.

Esprix
  #36  
Old 06-03-2003, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Esprix
Evidently not.

Esprix
Yeah. Don't you hate those threads that don't end when you personally want them to. The horror.
  #37  
Old 06-03-2003, 03:24 PM
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Yes imagine what this board would be like if all threads ended when one participant was done talking.
  #38  
Old 06-03-2003, 03:29 PM
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What, exactly, was the point here? To prove him right one example at a time? Jesus Christ. Never mind that every single self-identified lesbian in the other thread agreed that lame "lesbian in a man's body" joke was hugely offensive to them. Let's pit Esprix over it anyway.

Can I switch sides? The company over here sucks. I'm not gay, but I am willing to learn.
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Old 06-03-2003, 03:33 PM
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You'd better go look again Miller. For one Cadbury-Angel said she agreed it was stupid but not worth a pitting or a hysterical claim of hateful ignorance.
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Old 06-03-2003, 03:42 PM
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Re: Could you please stop making gay men look like screechy, hissy drama queens?


Quote:
Originally posted by Malacandra
faggots are very often served with gravy over here
Thought they made their own. (rimshot)

For a change I plan to stay out of the "one man's drama queen is another man's freedom fighter" discussion except for suggesting we do an FAQ with all of the offensive terms and jokes so Pit threads can be limited to "Dear USERX, please see FAQ 6.1b."

However, count me as yet another parochial Yank who only knows three definitions for "faggot" and who considers none of them edible, even with gravy. I would love to be able to get that pun but I cannot.
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Old 06-03-2003, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miller
What, exactly, was the point here? To prove him right one example at a time? Jesus Christ. Never mind that every single self-identified lesbian in the other thread agreed that lame "lesbian in a man's body" joke was hugely offensive to them. Let's pit Esprix over it anyway.

Can I switch sides? The company over here sucks. I'm not gay, but I am willing to learn.
Of course!

Let me take you through our training program.



  #42  
Old 06-03-2003, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Otto
Gosh, I kind of like the word "faggot." I especially like the variation in pronunciation one can get. My two favorites are the very clipped and the streched out "faaaa-git."

Now "fag" I don't like. Probably because the nasal a most midwesterners give it make the word sound somehow...incomplete to my ear.
So it's okay if it's drawn out more?

[Repo Man]

"John Wayne was a fay-ug."

[/Repo Man]



Those reading this thread who still don't get the "faggot" pun Malacandra refers to should really read the thread jjimm links to above. All will be made clear.
  #43  
Old 06-03-2003, 03:58 PM
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Also, aren't fags cigarettes? And "fagged" can mean "tired?"
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Old 06-03-2003, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
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Also, aren't fags cigarettes? And "fagged" can mean "tired?"
You are correct. But imagine the reaction of the American businessman phoning a UK client, only to be told by the client's secretary that he's not available as "he's outside sucking a fag". Rumored to be a true story.
  #45  
Old 06-03-2003, 04:28 PM
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In UK colloquialism, Guin, "fags" are indeed cigarettes, but "faggots" are meatballs made with, in Pratchett's useful phrase, "suspicious-looking organs."

There was, I recall, a fairly large portion of the population in the 1950s and early 1960s who felt that black people were making too big an issue out of the remaining disadvantages that they felt were oppressing them, and that they ought to just shut up and be thankful they lived in a free country. I presume that the overwhelming majority of this board disagrees strongly with that attitude.

The outspoken gay people on this board, and those of us who stand by them, see the problems they encounter in almost precisely the same perspective as those encountered by blacks back then (and to a small extent, still today). And whatever you may think of Esprix or gobear objecting to hurtful language, there's a point behind it that really needs to be made.

The old solution always works -- if you don't want to read it, don't open the thread.
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Old 06-03-2003, 04:49 PM
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To a certain extent, Polycarp, I agree with you. And yet just because a person is a member of an oppressed group (for lack of a better term), that doesn't give them free reign to engage in the same type of behavior that they decry.

Prejudice is prejudice, regardless of who espouses it. There isn't a "right" way to show it.
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Old 06-03-2003, 05:06 PM
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Yeah, Polycarp, that is why I tend to be of two minds about these things. The white, straight, middle-class male in me thinks everything is rosy for everybody because it's rosy for me. On the other hand, the fat guy who is expected by society to take the jokes with jolly good humor can understand Esprix's reaction to similar jokes at his or his friends' expense.
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Old 06-03-2003, 05:24 PM
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned niggardly yet.
  #49  
Old 06-03-2003, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by jr8
So it's okay if it's drawn out more?

[Repo Man]

"John Wayne was a fay-ug."

[/Repo Man]
Anything from Repo Man is, by definition, the apotheosis of cool.
  #50  
Old 06-03-2003, 07:41 PM
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Gotta disagree with you, jar:

Quote:
Originally posted by CadburyAngel
I'm a girl who likes to sleep with girls (whee! I'm an expert!) and I didn't sympathize with the OP at first. But reading the posts from other members who were offended... okay, I get it. Ask me again in five years, and I'm sure I'll have heard it 400 times instead of 4, and will probably be sick of it, too.

Yeah, "lesbian in a man's body" is obnoxious. But is it so offensive that we need to, for example, offer to castrate those who say such a thing (in sarcastic jest, no less) without anesthesia? It seems like the first response to that comment was the best. "Gee, how original." And then let it drop. This seems like a partial overreaction to me.

On the other hand, Esprix is allowed to react however he wants to whatever he wants, and I'm not a huge fan of people who seem to think he should sit down and shut up. The boards would be a duller place without him, and I mean that in a complimentary manner.
She called the castration comment a partial over-reaction, but ultimatly agreed with both the sentiment of the OP and his right to rant about it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sauron
To a certain extent, Polycarp, I agree with you. And yet just because a person is a member of an oppressed group (for lack of a better term), that doesn't give them free reign to engage in the same type of behavior that they decry.
Can you show where Esprix did that? There's a whole world of difference between stereotyping someone and being angry at someone for playing into a stereotype.
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