No wonder today's kids are all screwed up!They're being 'taken seriously'!

[80sHairMetalMaven]

TCS is an educational philosophy. Its most distinctive feature is the idea that it is possible and desirable to bring up children entirely without doing things to them against their will, or making them do things against their will, and that they are entitled to the same rights, respect and control over their lives as adults.

This was taken from the
Taking Children Seriously website which seems to advocate not TELLING your children what to do, but ASKING them instead.

While I admit everybody is allowed to have their own unique philosophy and ways of dealing with/raising their kids, it seems to me a lot of parents over the last couple of decades have taken this TCS jive and ran like hell with it. And not in a good way.

We are going to live to be old people with a bunch of these kids (now grown up) who think they can do what they will because they were raised to think that whatever they do is ok. That fact scares me to death.

[obligatory Breakfast Club ref]
Vernon:You think about this: when you get old, these kids -- when *I* get old -- they're going to be running the country. Now this is the thought that wakes me up in the middle of the night. That when I get older, these kids are going to take care of me.[/oBCr]


Ya know, I think that ol' Vernon was on to something there. These kids, these hooligans that the 'feel-good, only do it if you feel like it' parents are raising are gonna be running the country in 20, 30 years, or so.

It's a very sobering thought.

IDBB

[sugaree]

I seriously doubt that "a bunch" of these kids will be around. What sane parent can get through 18 years without eventually being forced to lay down at least a few laws?

[Little Plastic Ninja]

Oh, I don't know.

If these kids are used to getting their own way in EVERYthing, they'll soon be unpleasantly surprised by school. And if Mumsy and Dadsy homeschool them, then they'll be unpleasantly surprised by their fellow kids. And even if they aren't, they will DEFINITELY be unpleasantly surprised by college and adult life.

"Why didn't you come to class for your midterms, Timmy?"

"I didn't really feel like it, Professor."

"Huh. Well, I really feel like failing you."

"But I don't WANNA fail!"

"Should've taken your test then. Too bad, so sad."

And even disregarding college, these people aren't going to do well in their jobs...

[The Great Unwashed]

Originally posted by I_Dig_Bad_Boys
This was taken from the
Taking Children Seriously website which seems to advocate not TELLING your children what to do, but ASKING them instead.

I know this is the pit, so an out-and-out, unsupported rant is not inappropriate, but do you have evidence (or reasons to believe) that such "non-coercive parenting strategies" (their term) lead to dysfunctional behaviour? Or is it just that what was good enough for previous generations must be good enough for the next, because, I can tell you, I know a lot of fucked up people, their incidence does not correlate to liberal parenting in the way you seem to anticipate.

I suspect that many posters to this thread will not bother to read any of the article(s).

I should admit, IANAParent (but my mum and dad played some in the movie of my life).

[andros]

What TGU said. And I am a parent.

Overreact much, IDBB?

[lezlers]

Well, I read the cite and it's just as lame as I always thought TCS was. They didn't answer any of the FAQ! Each and every "question" (such as "what if my child is about to do something dangerous?) is answered with "well, they won't. "

Gee, how helpful

[Gjorp]

Oh great, another "kids these days", eh? Why is it I get the feeling that language was only invented to complain about how nowadays is worse than it was in the "good old days".

All you're doing is taking the worst example and claiming that that's how everything is. I was raised late 80's/early 90's and I got none of this TCS crap. I was beat with a wooden spoon. And all my friends had mothers with their own instrument of choice.

And, of course we have things better than you did. The whole history of human innovation and invention is about making the world an easier place to live in.

Hmm, this is turning into a rant that deserves it's own thread. I'll just stop now.

[RickJay]

We've discussed the TCS thing in the Pit before. The general consensus is that it's just theoretical claptrap. It's old news.

[The Great Unwashed]

Originally posted by RickJay
We've discussed the TCS thing in the Pit before. The general consensus is that it's just theoretical claptrap. It's old news.

Ah, good, consensus, there's nothing like it.

[dangermom]

I suspect that there are about 10 parents in the country who seriously believe in this TCS stuff. The current most popular theory is that you're supposed to be authoritative, which is neither too authoritarian nor too permissive. You may quit worrying about the few loonies who subscribe to this one. Worry about something more worthwhile--say, that someone will demolish your house by mistake.

[seal_cleaner]

This country is going to hell in a handbasket - as has every country, throughout history.
I'm almost 50 and have encountered many kids raised this way throughout my life. Nothing new here.

[Primaflora]

TCS is not a common practice. There's a few hardcore families but not many. It's a very very hard way to parent (but you guessed that didn't you? ). Most of the people on the mailing list appear to be teenagers or people without kids.

I've known people who tried to do it but interestingly enough 5 years down the track, they're not as committed to the practice. I don't think common preference is such a bad way to parent -- the bit I would get stuck on is the bit where the parent is supposed to give way to the child because the child has no power. Ummm yeah, that's gonna create a power balance for sure.

My main beef with David and Sarah is that stupid, stupid essay (which may or may not still be up on the site) about how autism does not exist. It's worse than Bettelheim's refrigerator mother theory but fortunately less influential.

[Morrigoon]

How can you say kids today are identical to kids 50 years ago? Were kids shooting up their cafeterias in '53? I think not! There IS something wrong with the way kids are being raised today. I don't know what the solution is (because not all methods are right for all kids - or all parents), but I do know we need one. What's next? People showing up to work with guns? Oh hmm..... nevermind.

[Primaflora]

Just came back in to say it's idiotic to claim that *all* kids today are screwed up because of the very few families who practise non-coercive parenting. IDBB, you got a cite for it being a common way to raise children?

I'd guess there are thousands more families following Ezzo and his scary scary theories than there are TCS families.

[Guinastasia]

I was on the list. It's as bad as you think.

Five year olds still in diapers. An entire family with lice because the youngest REFUSED to let anyone touch his head and they kept getting reinfected. Some people actually saying that it was wrong to keep a kid from being friends with known pedophiles. A woman asking what to do with a depressed daughter who was cutting and being told "help her do it."

It is very real, folks. And it is very scary. VERY.

[The Great Unwashed]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
I was on the list. It's as bad as you think.

Five year olds still in diapers. An entire family with lice because the youngest REFUSED to let anyone touch his head and they kept getting reinfected. Some people actually saying that it was wrong to keep a kid from being friends with known pedophiles. A woman asking what to do with a depressed daughter who was cutting and being told "help her do it."

It is very real, folks. And it is very scary. VERY.

You were on the mailing list? So you might know more than I -- all I have to go on is a ten minute review of their site, please illuminate me.

But, before we go on, and lest I am railroaded, if there are (well-founded) criticisms to be made of TCS none are clear from the OP, nor seem to follow from my short perusal of the site; specifically:

TCS advocates: methods that lead to late potty training; rule of the familily by ill-disciplined infants; association with child-abusers; aiding and abetting of one's offspring's self-harm

is a pretty different rant to

TCS advocates "not TELLING your children what to do, but ASKING them instead."

[Primaflora]

But Guin, not that I am an apologist for TCS or NCS, the thing is that the vast majority of those discussions are theoretical. The paedophile one comes up regularly as does the jumping off the roof one.

5 year olds in diapers doesn't worry me.

The lice one would be explained away as a failure to reach a CP. Which it certainly is

The cutting thing is scary but then virtually every discussion I've seen of mental issues from a TCS POV is either stupid beyond belief or scary.

There are not many actual parents with kids doing this. Statistically it's not a huge number and not a lot of them are in the US. It's not to blame for today's kids being all screwed up. It's one tiny fragment of a reasonably statistically small parenting community. Your average Joe Blow and Joetta Blow don't even know that these people exist, much less base their childrearing on these extreme theories.

[Primaflora]

Great Unwashed, the goal of TCS theory is to find a Common Preference which suits all members of the family, not just the adults.

So the nits problem theoretically should be solved by the parents finding a way and sharing their theories about why the nits are a bad thing. In reality if the parents 'fail' to share their theories correctly and do not convince the kid it is more worthwhile to treat the nits, everybody gets nits.

With the paedophile example, the expectation is that if the child wants to spend time with the paedophile, then the parent finds a way for the kid to do it safely.

If it is impossible to find a CP, then the child's preference takes priority. Thus the nit infection.

I don't practise TCS and I have no desire to do so. I've been flamed extensively by people who do see it as a desirable way to parent. But I can see the value in common preferences which are not taken to extremes. I know parents who I like and respect who do follow this way of life and their kids so far are not axe murderers.

[Primaflora]

Oh and another point? What's on the website is fairly tame compared to the list discussions. It's TCS lite.

[80sHairMetalMaven]

Well, even if not all parents these days subscribe directly to the TCS method, certain aspects of it have crept slowly into the parental handbooks one reads when one is pregnant (or at least the ones I read for the heck of it one day. Don't ask. I don't know why I did it either.).

They all seem to advocate being more a friend than a parent and people who've never had kids don't know any better. They are afraid to discipline their kids because they remember how they were disciplined as children and hated it.

As a retail employee, maybe I run into the very worst of these parents and their heathenish mutant offspring and that's clouded my judgement. I dunno.

IDBB

[The Great Unwashed]

Originally posted by Primaflora
..I can see the value in common preferences which are not taken to extremes. I know parents who I like and respect who do follow this way of life and their kids so far are not axe murderers.

Well, absolutely, if there truly are idiots that fail to recognize the boundaries of "common preference" then they weren't going to make great parents anyway.

[The Great Unwashed]

Originally posted by I_Dig_Bad_Boys
Well, even if not all parents these days subscribe directly to the TCS method, certain aspects of it have crept slowly into the parental handbooks one reads when one is pregnant (or at least the ones I read for the heck of it one day. Don't ask. I don't know why I did it either.).

"not all" is a lousy paraphrasing of "hardly any"

They all seem to advocate being more a friend than a parent and people who've never had kids don't know any better. They are afraid to discipline their kids because they remember how they were disciplined as children and hated it.

Advocating you should be a friend to your children!? The bastards!

As a retail employee, maybe I run into the very worst of these parents and their heathenish mutant offspring and that's clouded my judgement. I dunno.

IDBB

Stupid me, I thought you were a child-psychologist, or something.

Do you have reason to believe that the "heathenish mutants" you have to deal with have a greater prevalence among the children of liberal parents (who might see child discipline as a co-operative and non-coercive matter)?

[milroyj]

Originally posted by Primaflora
Great Unwashed, the goal of TCS theory is to find a Common Preference which suits all members of the family, not just the adults.

So the nits problem theoretically should be solved by the parents finding a way and sharing their theories about why the nits are a bad thing. In reality if the parents 'fail' to share their theories correctly and do not convince the kid it is more worthwhile to treat the nits, everybody gets nits.

With the paedophile example, the expectation is that if the child wants to spend time with the paedophile, then the parent finds a way for the kid to do it safely.

If it is impossible to find a CP, then the child's preference takes priority. Thus the nit infection.

I don't practise TCS and I have no desire to do so. I've been flamed extensively by people who do see it as a desirable way to parent. But I can see the value in common preferences which are not taken to extremes. I know parents who I like and respect who do follow this way of life and their kids so far are not axe murderers.

Have you gone barking mad? If the kid has nits because the parents refuse to take of the situation, the kid should be removed from custody and the parents jailed for child abuse. I won't even go to the pedophilia example. You've stated the entire problem with TCS when you said "the child's preference takes priority". On what planet??? A child's "prefrences" don't mean diddly-squat.

[astro]

My fave from that site

In Praise of Ignorance, by David Deutsch “Innocence, properly conceived, is a positive attribute. It is the ignorance that comes from a voluntary decision not to engage (or not to engage yet) with a particular area of complex knowledge. Innocence in that sense is essential for all genuine learning. Compulsory teaching is the destruction of innocence, forcing the victims to waste the opportunity, which comes only once in each lifetime, to encounter that knowledge for the first time. It is no wonder, then, that pumping information prematurely into people's minds simply triggers emergency procedures that do everything in their power to shield the recipient from engaging with that information, and that the usual result is the permanent destruction of the recipient's ability to engage with information of that type. How many people have a feeling that there is something rich and wonderful in science, or in mathematics, or in Shakespeare, but that it is somehow inaccessible to them? Is that not a tragedy? If they could have acted on that same impulse innocently, at the moment when they were ready, what then could possibly have spoiled those rich and wonderful areas of knowledge for them?” Reader's comment: “This is quite simply one of the most important articles ever published.”

[Primaflora]

milroyj, no, I haven't gone barking mad but you have misread my posts if you think for one microsecond that my kids get their way if I can't engineer a common preference. Or that my kids hang out with paedophiles or jump off roofs.

Being able to explain TCS doesn't mean I do it or that I believe in it as a childrearing philosophy. I'm only this au fait with TCS as a result of being beaten over the head repeatedly by zealots on parenting lists. I don't have a problem with the concept that if there are choices to be made (what flavour ice cream to buy, what movie to see, what colour to paint their bedroom FE) I'm willing to discuss a common preference but trust me that's about all I took from TCS.

astro the really fun bits start when you're arguing with an ardent TCS'er and they begin redefining the English language. In a lot of ways TCS strongly resembles a cult.

[Guinastasia]

Well, one example they gave on the list was-say the kid wants to go to the park, but the parent is in the middle of a really good book and doesn't want to leave the house. The parent begins suggesting ways the child can find to do something so the parent doesn't "sacrifice" his wants, without upsetting the child. So Mom says, "Hey, you know, what about that Lego village you've been working on?" And the child says, "Oh yeah, okay, cool!"

Stuff like that, okay, fine.

But these people take it to a ridiculous extreme. Their theory is that ALL coercion is bad. ALL of it. And because a child didn't chose to be born, but the parents did, it's the parents who have to make it so the child has complete automony.

They're very much anti-school, they don't believe in learning disabilities or mental illness, they're hardcore libertarians, (libertarianism-while I disagree with it, is all well and good, but wrong when taken to extremes).

milroyj-read the site for yourself.


No, it's NOT wide-spread at all. But it IS amusing and fun to rag on them. One woman compared forcibly changing a child's diaper to rape.

As for David Deutshbag, I recall a member telling me privately that all the carrots are missing from his vegetable drawer, he's such a tightass.

[Krisfer the Cat]

Anybody here other than me laughing because the OP was written by a not-a-long-way-ouuta-her-teens childless person?
Yeah raising kids is easy. No I NEVER have days when I give in just because I am tired. HAH!

I have found that my son reacts very well to choices. And when one of the choices is a loss of privileges he usually does what I want of him.

He is 7. He runs and jumps in my lap and says "Your my bestest mommy." That's worth lettin him have his way now and then.

[Sam Stone]

This reminds me of the last fad - the 'self esteem at all costs' philosophy. Can't fail the kids, because it'll hurt their self esteem. Can't have them playing competitive games, because losing hurts their self esteem. Can't grade them, can't criticise them, must maintain their self esteem at all costs.

Now they're finding out that we raised a generation of people with great self-esteem - but for no reason. So they've become a bunch of obnoxious selfish snots, who think they're great at everything. Gee, who saw that coming?


NOTE TO POTENTIAL FLAMERS: Obviously, this does not mean YOU. You bucked the odds, and are truly worthy of our praise.

[TeaRoses]

I've never been on the list but I have known several people who were. I haven't read the website since it was much smaller, but I have communicated with a very committed TCS parent online, back in my homeschooling days.

I'm rather torn on this. I honestly don't think any of the TCS parents I knew were bad parents or even close to bad parents. Then again, I never heard any of them say the whole family got nits or any of these other horror stories. My own parenting is such a mess (I won't go into it, but I will say we're in family therapy) that TCS couldn't possibly have hurt, but I never tried it.

I don't think "elements" of TCS are creeping into anything. As has been stated here, its a very, very all-or-nothing philosophy with extremely few adherents. Elements of what might be called permissiveness, yes, and whether that's a good thing or a bad one I don't know either.

[Cerri]

...

Are you kidding me?!? One of the first words a kid learns to SAY is "no"! The only way that'd fly in MY house is if the kids have killed me and buried me in the backyard.

An entire family with friggin LICE because the kid didn't want anyone to touch his head?!? Oh, good sweet lord, HELL no.

Got room in that boat, milroyj? I'm with you on this one.

[Liberal]

Guin

They're very much anti-school, they don't believe in learning disabilities or mental illness, they're hardcore libertarians, (libertarianism-while I disagree with it, is all well and good, but wrong when taken to extremes).

Gah! Not hardly!

Children are not rights bearing entities — that is, they are not capable of giving meaningful consent. It is therefore not a coercion to make decisions on their behalf. In fact, making decisions on behalf of their children is a huge part of the parents' contractual responsibility.

There is absolutely nothing libertarian about any theory that will abandon decision-making processes or entrust them over to children.

While children do not bear rights, their parents do bear obligations, the primary one being to ensure that the children grow up to be rights bearing entities. There is no better method for this than loving discipline.

[Alereon]

Some people are shitty parents.

Some, like the examples on the TCS website, are shitty parents because they are far too permissive with their children and cannot effectively PARENT them. Others, like milroyj, are shitty parents because they are assholes.

Being a good parent means striking a balance between respecting your children and listening to what they want, and, when necessary, setting boundaries and making and enforcing rules. Too much or too little of either is suboptimal.

[milroyj]

Originally posted by Alereon
Others, like milroyj, are shitty parents because they are assholes.

Where in the hell did that attack come from?

[Guinastasia]

Lib, they call themselves libertarians. I agree with you, but they see coercion as bad ALWAYS. Even when you save someone's life, they still say you should appologize later.

I don't think all the people on the list are bad. Just a select few-like the people who run it, and that. Sarah Fitz-Clarence (I thought it was Sarah Lawrence?!), David Deutsch, and a few others are complete and utter morons.

[Alereon]

Originally posted by milroyj
A child's "prefrences" don't mean diddly-squat.

I'm sorry, I should have quoted in the first place.

[The Great Unwashed]

Originally posted by Alereon
Others, like milroyj, are shitty parents because they are assholes.

Originally posted by milroyj
A child's "prefrences" don't mean diddly-squat.

I don't think the complaint is that you typoed, either.

[The Great Unwashed]

If I'd had a proper updragging, I wouldn't have simulposted.

[Weirddave]

Originally posted by Alereon
I'm sorry, I should have quoted in the first place.

It still wouldn't have made a difference. What the fuck planet are you from? Do you even have kids? As much as I always try to take into consideration what the buglet wants, and accomidate him whenever possible, in the end, his preference means didly-squat if it conflicts with mine as a parent. That's the problem with these TCS idiots in a nutshell. Eventually, judgement calls must be made, and they are having the person with the least amount of experience, who is least qualified to make them, be the one to make the call. It's upside down. Saying that a child's opinion dosen't matter is the truth: It dosen't. Good parents will do all they can to make sure the child has input, but when the rubber meats the road...Sorry, kid, but your opinion means bupkis.

[milroyj]

When it comes down to a child's health, welfare, or safety, a child's preferences don't mean jack. Those issues are the responsibility of the parents. And having an untreated lice infestation that affects the entire family is a health issue.

I may be an asshole, but not for the reason you allege.

[The Great Unwashed]

Originally posted by Weirddave
It still wouldn't have made a difference. What the fuck planet are you from? Do you even have kids? As much as I always try to take into consideration what the buglet wants, and accomidate him whenever possible, in the end, his preference means didly-squat if it conflicts with mine as a parent. That's the problem with these TCS idiots in a nutshell. Eventually, judgement calls must be made, and they are having the person with the least amount of experience, who is least qualified to make them, be the one to make the call. It's upside down. Saying that a child's opinion dosen't matter is the truth: It dosen't. Good parents will do all they can to make sure the child has input, but when the rubber meats the road...Sorry, kid, but your opinion means bupkis.

What the fuck do you mean?

Do you mean that when "push comes to shove" your opinion counts most?

'cause that's a whole different thing to WeirdDaviditta's preferences mean diddly-squat!

But then you reiterate, "Saying that a child's opinion dosen't matter is the truth: It doesn't. "

If this is truly your position, and not just an over-hasty remark, then just maybe you should go fuck yourself -- less chance of you procreating that way!

[Una Persson]

So let me get this straight: the entire assertion/accusation that milroyj is a "shitty parent" is because of this:

Originally posted by milroyj
A child's "prefrences" don't mean diddly-squat.

And that means he's an "asshole" and a "shitty parent"? That's pretty over the top to accuse someone of that when based on such flimsy "evidence". Especially when deliberately taken out of the context of the family health issue he was commenting on in the first place. Do anyone honestly believe that a child should have any *final* say in determining the ultimate decisions which can impact the health and welfare of himself, his siblings, his parents, and extended family? That's what is absolute insanity to me.

[Una Persson]

Jesus, now there's a simulpost with milroyj. I need not have posted at all.

[Krisfer the Cat]

My child has pink eye.. he is miserable. He didnt want to go to the doctor. He doesnt like his medicine it stings. He still gets it. So I am an asshole.. but the big question Alereon Whats it to you?

[Guinastasia]

Well, if milroyj was saying, "I don't care if the kid doesn't like blue, he's going to wear nothing but blue!" or "So what if he's scared? I'm taking my three year old to see Horror Fest III: Bucket O' Blood!", THEN you can say well, maybe you should listen to your child's wants.

However, when it comes to things like safety, medical care, schooling, etc, it should NOT be up to a fucking five year old.

[Alereon]

Weirddave: I think my post made it clear that I don't agree with the TCS style of parenting. However, as a parent you NEED to take into account your child's wants and desires. Do they count as much when the kid is in preschool and wants icecream for dinner as when they're twelve and don't want to take piano lessons anymore? Of course not. But they DO matter, and you DO have to address them.

milroyj: There's a world of difference between knowing that your child has to go to the dentist even though they don't want to and believing that what the child wants doesn't matter. One's job as a parent includes overruling what your child wants, when necessary. It's the "when necessary" part that's important.
If you meant by your comment "in the case if health and safety concerns, a child's preferences must take a back seat to what the parent knows needs to happen," that's fine, I'll agree with you, and I apologize for the misunderstanding. I can't, of course, accept your statement as written.

Krisfer the Cat: Read my post again until you get the point. Listening to what your child wants AND doing what's best for them no matter what are not mutually exclusive.

[Sunny Smile]

In case there is anyone here who would be interested in discussing what TCS actually advocates instead of a lot of complete and utter bullspit written by people purporting to know about TCS but who clearly don't have a clue, the TCS web site is here:

http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/

and no, it's not "TCS Lite".

Not wanting to spoil your fun or anything, but in case anyone reading this gives a fuck, TCS is not about asking not telling, nor is it about kids ruling the parents, nor is it touchy-feely permissive parenting, and nor is it negligent. They do NOT assume that kids need no guidance, and no, the whole family does NOT get lice, and no, it is not about leaving kids unprotected from dangers. And no, they don't say coercion is always wrong, and no, TCS is not a "strategy" or a "method".

[Liberal]

Originally posted by Guinastasia
Lib, they call themselves libertarians. I agree with you, but they see coercion as bad ALWAYS. Even when you save someone's life, they still say you should appologize later.

I don't think all the people on the list are bad. Just a select few-like the people who run it, and that. Sarah Fitz-Clarence (I thought it was Sarah Lawrence?!), David Deutsch, and a few others are complete and utter morons.

I think maybe they're just confused. Coercion is always bad, but coercion is defined (libertarianly) as the initiation of force or fraud against rights bearing entities. Consent is the absolute essence of libertarianism, and children are not capable of giving meaningful consent.

Oh, well. I stand beside you in utter shock at these people, whatever they call themselves.

[Guinastasia]

Well, I DO remember a parent asking about her family having head lice.

Yeah, maybe it's not ABOUT that, but actions have consequences.

Of course, these people don't believe in "natural consequences", even when they are, indeed, natural. For instance, read Catty Coercion.

Sorry, but if your kid starts tormenting my cat, and my cat fights back, I'm not going to weep tears for your child.

[Palo Verde]

Originally posted by Sunny Smile
In case there is anyone here who would be interested in discussing what TCS actually advocates instead of a lot of complete and utter bullspit written by people purporting to know about TCS but who clearly don't have a clue, the TCS web site is here:

http://www.takingchildrenseriously.com/

and no, it's not "TCS Lite".

Ummm..... well most of us have looked at the web site you mentioned and are horrified by the philosophy.

Care to defend it? I would be interested to hear a logical defense of this.

Autz (mom to 3, soon to be 4 little ones)

[A Monkey With a Gun]

Well, I think kids should be taken seriously. I remember when I was twelve and witnessed first hand the arrival of Martians in a flying saucer. But did anybody take me seriously? noooo, and next thing you know the all the townspeople are under mind control. The Army had to sort the thing out.

I remember another time, I was about 16, and I rolled into town on my motorcycle. I said, "hey daddy-O, there's this really freaky alien that eats people! It's got no shape, ya dig, yet it oozes all around" Nobody took me seriously then either.