#1051  
Old 12-05-2019, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
A 120v outlet gets you less than 50 miles of range according to actual sources, generally in the range of 2-5 miles of range per hour of charging...
If you read my other post, right after that one, you'll notice that I was talking about people who drive 50-70 miles a day. Such a person can get away with just 50 miles the nights she spends with her boyfriend. And she can easily top off the battery at home with her 240v outlet. Yeah, I don't think EVs are currently suitable for most people who have 200 miles/day life styles.

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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
...In most houses that I've experienced, this stuff would be an incredible pain in the ass to do - you're talking about carrying around 100' of 240v rated power cable and unrolling it, plugging it in, then completing that cycle when you're done. If you're using the dryer plug, in many houses, plugging and unplugging a dryer is an ordeal, for example to get to my dryer's plug requires moving a table, then pulling the dryer out of the enclosure it's in, then repeating that the next morning to plug it back in...
Cool beans. I don't actually have a dryer plug (gas drier) and if my friend wants to charge at my house, she makes due with the 120v outlet in my garage. But when I had a dryer outlet, snaking a cord from the dryer to the garage would have taken about 10 minutes, and it would have taken me perhaps one minute to point my friend to the outlet, she would have dealt with the rest.

You know, if she's at my place for hours, I'm probably feeding her, too. The marginal cost of the electricity she's using is completely insignificant.

Also, it's not really fair to count both the nuisance of getting at the 240V outlet and ALSO the low output of the 120V charger. Pick one and go with it.
  #1052  
Old 12-05-2019, 11:11 PM
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I mean, when friends visit, I let them make phone calls, use my toilet, turn on my lights, and heck, even eat my food and drink my booze. It's just not that big an ask to ask to plug in a car.
  #1053  
Old 12-05-2019, 11:21 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
And once again somebody says that something is happening, and we get a description of why it won't happen.
And once again EV proponents ignore the world at large in favor of "If I can do it with a handful of people in a specific lifestyle in a specific location, everyone must be able to do it, and anyone who points out the large groups of people and/or situations this won't work for is just in denial!" EV proponents keep trying to gloss over a host of practical issues that EVs run into for people who aren't in their very specific circumstances, and I do like how EV proponent stories contradict each other.

Earlier the idea that someone might forget or not bother to charge one night was dismissed as absurd because it's so trivial to charge there's no way anyone wouldn't do it. Now we find that, in many circumstances, the 'charging so easy there's no way anyone could forget' involves a carrying around a hundred feet of charger cable, running it from a car to a dryer, unplugigng the dryer, then leaving it out overnight, then replugging the dryer, and recoiling the cable when you leave. Somehow I think that's a level of effort that a person just might forgo on occasion.
  #1054  
Old 12-05-2019, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Ravenman View Post
Good point. Why don't we ever consider the plight of people who live on houseboats? Man, I've been nailed.
Or maybe... apartments? Like were mentioned in the post? It's weird how often EV proponents try to pretend like really common living arrangements, like apartments, are some kind of silly edge case like houseboats.
  #1055  
Old 12-05-2019, 11:49 PM
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If you read my other post, right after that one, you'll notice that I was talking about people who drive 50-70 miles a day. Such a person can get away with just 50 miles the nights she spends with her boyfriend. And she can easily top off the battery at home with her 240v outlet.
And I'm talking about the general applicability of EVs, and the specific claim that they're an improvement for people who drive 'less than 100-200 miles per day'.

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Yeah, I don't think EVs are currently suitable for most people who have 200 miles/day life styles.
The only people talking about 200 miles/day life styles are EV proponents trying to ignore realistic scenarios.

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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
If they are just dropping by for dinner, they may ask to use the drier's 240V outlet.
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Cool beans. I don't actually have a dryer plug (gas drier)
Then why would your friends ask to use the drier's 240v outlet? You posted this like it was common behavior for them, with a clear implication that this was something that's no big deal to do, but it's not even possible.

It's especially hilarious that people in this thread are berating me for pointing out that the situation isn't universal since 'it's happening', and it turns out that it's not even possible for the person using it as an example.

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You know, if she's at my place for hours, I'm probably feeding her, too. The marginal cost of the electricity she's using is completely insignificant.
Estimates for the cost of charging an EV for 50 miles on wall current are around $6-7. That's not an insignificant cost to just dump on someone, especially of we're talking about the kind of situation you laid out where "My friends with EVs charge at places without chargers all the time.", which implies that they pretty routinely hook up their car if they're just hanging out. If I've got a dozen people over for a game night and half of them have EVs like proponents here say should happen, we're looking at me bumping my electric bill by $20-30 every time I do one.

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Also, it's not really fair to count both the nuisance of getting at the 240V outlet and ALSO the low output of the 120V charger. Pick one and go with it.
No, I'm going to point out the limits of charging technology that EV proponents are trying to get people to ignore, I'm not going to ignore 50% of them because you declare that I must for no particular reason. 120v current is a pain in the ass and insufficient for the 'always fully charged every day' assumption EV proponents make in this thread, 240v is even more of a pain in the ass and is not possible at all in many cases, like yours.
  #1056  
Old 12-05-2019, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by puzzlegal View Post
Yeah, I don't think EVs are currently suitable for most people who have 200 miles/day life styles.
Dude, that's 73,000 miles per year! That's six times the average American's mileage. Why should EV manufacturer's even think about that use case? Why should any discussion about EVs' suitability for typical drivers be concerned about that sort of use? Typical drivers don't drive anywhere near that much.
  #1057  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:02 AM
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I mean, when friends visit, I let them make phone calls, use my toilet, turn on my lights, and heck, even eat my food and drink my booze. It's just not that big an ask to ask to plug in a car.
Estimates for the cost of charging an EV for 50 miles on wall current are around $6-7. Operating a toilet, making free phone calls (though I don't have a land line anymore), and turning on lights doesn't cost anywhere near that much. I don't routinely have a bunch of people over and provide food and booze for them, I will either get them to throw in to offset costs or bring their own beer/food - it's really not that common for people to want others to bring their own beer.

I also question the long term viability of relying on people not to notice the cost of charging EVs. Right now they're rare and places want to encourage them, so are more likely to offer free outlets. But as they become common, I question how many apartment complexes will be fine with adding figures like $1800/month to their electric bill (10 cars per night for 30 days) without attempting to recoup costs somehow. Parking in a garage overnight will typically cost something like $10 near me, I can't see how a garage operator will stay in business if a significant number of cars start burning 60% of the cost of a park in electricity costs. While the charging infrastructure will certainly improve in the future, I think the ability to freeload off of other people's electricity without paying for it will become much less.
  #1058  
Old 12-06-2019, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
Estimates for the cost of charging an EV for 50 miles on wall current are around $6-7.
At .2-.3kWh/mile, 50 miles is 10-15kWh. Where do you live that electricity is $0.40/kWh?
  #1059  
Old 12-06-2019, 01:15 AM
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Or maybe... apartments? Like were mentioned in the post? It's weird how often EV proponents try to pretend like really common living arrangements, like apartments, are some kind of silly edge case like houseboats.
Do you realize that 77% of Americans live in houses? Sure, at 20% apartment living is common, but why should that change the usefulness of an EV for the rest of us? Even if only 50% of new car sales were EVs, the reduction in CO2 and other pollutants would be tremendous.
  #1060  
Old 12-06-2019, 04:18 AM
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Then the consumers end up in two camps. The traditionalist camp argues, "Your product can not do X or Y, therefore it's useless." The innovators shot back, "X and Y are niche concerns for a tiny subset. Get with the future."
That's a fair approximation of things, but I don't think it's quite as cut and dried as that. My personal observation is that the "traditionalists" tend to have a very active imagination about what they can't do with a product but a very limited imagination about what they can do. So there is an inherent bias toward the known against the unknown.

The fix is education--not necessarily in information dumps but just exposure to the new thing. My parents were very skeptical of all EVs. When I bought a Tesla and I was able to answer questions about how it worked, they opened up a bit. But they didn't really understand them until they bought a PHEV (which they only got due to a cheap lease deal). It had only a 24 mile pure-EV range but once they could see their own usage pattern fits nicely in that, and that they were able to go from fillups every couple of weeks to every couple of months, they understood. They now love seeing how far they can stretch those 24 miles, and even optimize their trips so that they avoid using gas as much as possible.

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I see Tesla at more of a crossroads than Chevy or Nissan or any of the other companies that have dipped their toes in the electric water. Will Tesla try to follow Ford's 100+ year-old model by starting with a single vehicle, then slowly branching out?
Maybe. Personally, I see them as having massive advantages due to their investments across many axes for several years now. For years, we've been waiting for the "Tesla killers" to arrive and we've finally seen the first batch of them. They aren't bad, but Tesla killers they ain't. They don't match Tesla's EV tech, they don't have a comprehensive charging network, they don't have a strong software stack, and they don't have over the air updates.

Tesla seems to be taking the Apple approach of having only a few models and putting all of their effort into those. And they have no fear of competing against themselves or somehow damaging their "legacy". BMW seems to have no intention of releasing a proper electric 3-series, nor will Ford release an actual EV Mustang. Their culture won't allow it for whatever reason. But it doesn't seem to bother Tesla to release a Model 3 that eats Model S sales.

Tesla is not yet in the big leagues unit wise, but they are still growing quickly. I expect the Model Y will bring them to >1M units per year, and these aren't low end vehicles.

I also expect Tesla to have a battery advantage for the foreseeable future. Tesla uses more total cells than any other manufacturer, have their own huge factory (with another coming online soon), and has an entirely separate product line (grid and household storage) to consume their product. Other manufacturers are only barely making plans to expand their production--GM just announced a factory that should be ready in ~2023, about 7 years after Tesla's factory opened.

That isn't to say Tesla will have an easy time, but so far the competition isn't quite there yet, and Tesla isn't resting.
  #1061  
Old 12-06-2019, 04:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Gorsnak View Post
At .2-.3kWh/mile, 50 miles is 10-15kWh. Where do you live that electricity is $0.40/kWh?
My peak electricity rates are about $0.50/kWh, but that's the absolute peak in summer. Of course, no EV driver is going to charge at those times. I pay $0.11/kWh at night and that's still relatively high.
  #1062  
Old 12-06-2019, 04:42 AM
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But as they become common, I question how many apartment complexes will be fine with adding figures like $1800/month to their electric bill (10 cars per night for 30 days) without attempting to recoup costs somehow.
Your numbers are way off. The average US driver drives 1100 miles per month. If we're assuming 10 cars, that's 11,000 miles, or 2750 kWh for a reasonably efficient EV (Model 3, Bolt, etc.). Nighttime electricity rates are probably around $0.10/kWh, so the actual monthly cost is ~$275.

Anyway, there's all kinds of ways a complex can recoup their costs. It's probably cheapest for apartment owners to just charge some nominal rate, say $40/mo, for spots with outlets. Some owners use more than others but on average they'll come out even.
  #1063  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:05 AM
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So, I own a phev (because a full electric vehicle doesn't work for me) and I have two local friends with all-electric vehicles (a Leaf and a Tesla) and three more local friends who drive PHEVs with significantly larger batteries than mine, and mostly drive electric (Honda clarity, the Chrysler Pacifica, and a Chevy Volt). I also have three friends with Tesla's who don't live near me, but who've talked about their experience enough that i have some idea how they use their cars. So I probably know more about the practicalities of charging, both at home and away from home, than you do.
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
And I'm talking about the general applicability of EVs, and the specific claim that they're an improvement for people who drive 'less than 100-200 miles per day'.
fine. Unless you are in the market for a Tesla, that's too far. But there are affordable choices today for the 50-70 mpd driver. Especially those in a multi-vehicle household. Especially those who have a designated parking spot at home. No, of course that's not everyone. But I bet it is 20-30% of US drivers, which isn't really "niche".
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
The only people talking about 200 miles/day life styles are EV proponents trying to ignore realistic scenarios.
uh... My examples are all real scenarios.
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
Then why would your friends ask to use the drier's 240v outlet? You posted this like it was common behavior for them, with a clear implication that this was something that's no big deal to do, but it's not even possible.
well, the first time she wanted to bring her old bev over, she asked about the drier. I assume she's asked other people for their drier outlets with better results. This friend IS an ev evangelist. The others aren't. And you know, either it's no big deal or the homeowner says, "no". This is an easy negotiation.

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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
It's especially hilarious that people in this thread are berating me for pointing out that the situation isn't universal since 'it's happening', and it turns out that it's not even possible for the person using it as an example.
this weekend I am going to a remote camp in Vermont. It doesn't have a charging station. Last year, at the weekend, two of the other guests charged their cars from a random external outlet. I think they swapped mid-weekend so they each got a full charge at 120v. It is a real option. It's also a perfectly reasonable option for someone spending the night at her boyfriend's house.

My friend who asked about the drier charges her car in her company's parking garage every day. They don't have chargers, she brings hers. I have a charger in the back of my car. It's about as hard to carry around as a set of jumper cables.
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
Estimates for the cost of charging an EV for 50 miles on wall current are around $6-7. That's not an insignificant cost to just dump on someone, especially of we're talking about the kind of situation you laid out where "My friends with EVs charge at places without chargers all the time.", which implies that they pretty routinely hook up their car if they're just hanging out. If I've got a dozen people over for a game night and half of them have EVs like proponents here say should happen, we're looking at me bumping my electric bill by $20-30 every time I do one.
even ignoring that your costs sound high, I spend >$100/food when I host a gaming night, so that doesn't seem like a big deal. I have friends to whom it's a bigger deal, who ask everyone to chip in for the pizza. They'd presumably expect some cash offset from friends who use a lot of their power. My friend the EV enthusiast is actually listed in some on-line EV reference as a charging location, and once had a random person contact her to charge. Yeah, she's an outlier. And now that there are other charging stations in her town I assume her garage will eventually drop off.
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
No, I'm going to point out the limits of charging technology that EV proponents are trying to get people to ignore, I'm not going to ignore 50% of them because you declare that I must for no particular reason. 120v current is a pain in the ass and insufficient for the 'always fully charged every day' assumption EV proponents make in this thread, 240v is even more of a pain in the ass and is not possible at all in many cases, like yours.
Sure, but be honest and use an "or". Either you have to find a 240v outlet at your friend's house OR you need to charge slowly. Not "you need to spend half an hour playing Tetris with my basement furniture and then leave your car there overnight".

Also, the "always fully charged every day" was an approximation. It's actually, "always have enough charge that I don't have to worry about range".
  #1064  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
...
I also question the long term viability of relying on people not to notice the cost of charging EVs. Right now they're rare and places want to encourage them, so are more likely to offer free outlets. But as they become common, I question how many apartment complexes will be fine with adding figures like $1800/month to their electric bill (10 cars per night for 30 days) without attempting to recoup costs somehow. Parking in a garage overnight will typically cost something like $10 near me, I can't see how a garage operator will stay in business if a significant number of cars start burning 60% of the cost of a park in electricity costs. While the charging infrastructure will certainly improve in the future, I think the ability to freeload off of other people's electricity without paying for it will become much less.
I think it's like AC. There's a real cost to the landlord. Some will not allow AC. Some will charge for the electricity. Some will provide central air (or built in faster chargers) and be able to charge more rent because there's a market that wants a nicer place with better amenities.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:48 PM
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Unless you are in the market for a Tesla, that's too far. But there are affordable choices today for the 50-70 mpd driver. Especially those in a multi-vehicle household. Especially those who have a designated parking spot at home. No, of course that's not everyone. But I bet it is 20-30% of US drivers, which isn't really "niche".
But the earlier claim was "At the moment they are great options for people in industrialized countries who have access to home charging, typically drive less than 100-200 miles per day (depending on the EV), and can afford an EV as their next car.". Your set is much, much smaller than that - you've limited things to people who never make what I'd call a medium or longer length trip. And I doubt that 20-30% of US drivers *never* drive more than 70 miles in a day, I just haven't seen anything to back that stronger claim up.

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this weekend I am going to a remote camp in Vermont. It doesn't have a charging station. Last year, at the weekend, two of the other guests charged their cars from a random external outlet. I think they swapped mid-weekend so they each got a full charge at 120v. It is a real option.
I wouldn't call a camp with enough power outlets in the parking area that you can reasonably expect to plug in a car all weekend especially 'remote'. And I would consider having to go back to the car to move the car mid-weekend pretty disruptive to a camping trip. Usually if I'm going camping an explicit part of the point is to not drive except for arriving and leaving. And if instead I'm camping incidental to a festival or similar event, finding parking at all is usually difficult, much less getting an outlet, staying plugged in, and going out to swap cars around. Also, how does this work if another EV user got there first and is already plugged in, or if one arrives later but decides you've probably charged enough and takes over? And what do you do if it turns out that power is out at the outlet?

This seems to be a consistent pattern. EV proponents insist that charging is super-easy and not inconvenient at all, but then when pressed it turns out that there are significant limitations that they're glossing over, there are major inconveniences they are willing to shrug off as 'no big deal', and there is a significant risk of getting stranded in the scenario. (The risk of stranding comes about because people in earlier examples were insistent that charging the car just enough to arrive at the destination with 10 miles or less of range was entirely reasonable). It also appears that widespread adoption of EVs will make the issues significantly worse; I don't really expect that remote campsites and cheap parking lots will add enough circuits and wiring that you can count on being able to 'just find an outlet' when there are 5x or 10x as many EVs in the field.

Quote:
Sure, but be honest and use an "or". Either you have to find a 240v outlet at your friend's house OR you need to charge slowly. Not "you need to spend half an hour playing Tetris with my basement furniture and then leave your car there overnight".
If you're going to admonish people to 'be honest', how about be honest about where you got 'basement furniture' or 'half an hour' from - it wasn't something I said. And I'm not going to be dishonest by adding an incorrect 'or' - if the assumption is a full charge every day for up to 70 miles of driving per day, then 120v simply isn't up to the task.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:53 PM
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I think it's like AC. There's a real cost to the landlord. Some will not allow AC. Some will charge for the electricity. Some will provide central air (or built in faster chargers) and be able to charge more rent because there's a market that wants a nicer place with better amenities.
Some offer AC, and then it doesn't work or doesn't work reliably, but it turns out that rental laws are such that AC is not considered essential, so you just suck up your AC not working. So if you're someone who can consistently afford places with good landlords, this isn't a problem, but for anyone who might have to deal with a bad landlord, you have to be aware that you're putting 'able to charge the car' on the list of things you rely on your landlord for.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:56 PM
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Do you realize that 77% of Americans live in houses? Sure, at 20% apartment living is common, but why should that change the usefulness of an EV for the rest of us? Even if only 50% of new car sales were EVs, the reduction in CO2 and other pollutants would be tremendous.
Do you realize that other people (perhaps not you) have friends and relatives who don't live in houses? And that they sometimes visit those people for an extended time? And if 50% of new car sales were EVs, the charging infrastructure would be badly overloaded for quite some time. The multi-hour thanksgiving super charging waits would probably be a regular weekend activity, and you'd start to find that those occasional outlets in parking lots are always full of other people's EVs getting their free charge.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
Your numbers are way off. The average US driver drives 1100 miles per month. If we're assuming 10 cars, that's 11,000 miles, or 2750 kWh for a reasonably efficient EV (Model 3, Bolt, etc.). Nighttime electricity rates are probably around $0.10/kWh, so the actual monthly cost is ~$275.
Great, so if we assume that electricity rates don't rise with the increased usage, and that a particular apartment complex has a fairly small number of people with electric cars, they're still looking at losing something like 1/4 of a unit's rent. This doesn't seem like a good deal for the complex, and especially doesn't seem like something that would prompt them to install more outlets so that more people (especially friends of the apartment dwellers) could come over and charge. It seems to me more like something that would cause them to restrict usage of outdoor outlets to either cut costs or recoup costs by charging for charging.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:57 PM
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I wouldn't call a camp with enough power outlets in the parking area that you can reasonably expect to plug in a car all weekend especially 'remote'. And I would consider having to go back to the car to move the car mid-weekend pretty disruptive to a camping trip. Usually if I'm going camping an explicit part of the point is to not drive except for arriving and leaving. And if instead I'm camping incidental to a festival or similar event, finding parking at all is usually difficult, much less getting an outlet, staying plugged in, and going out to swap cars around.
Not everyone who camps is also hiking their stuff deep into the wilderness. You have heard of "car camping" right? Places like KOA offer this, where there is a central area with showers/toilets/other amenities but your space has nothing but what you bring. You set that up as your base & can then go fishing/hiking/etc. from there. If your car is no more than a 5 min (or less) walk from your tent it's not totally disrupting your weekend to walk over there & move it once, say during the couple of minutes you're boiling water to cook a meal.


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Great, so if we assume that electricity rates don't rise with the increased usage, and that a particular apartment complex has a fairly small number of people with electric cars, they're still looking at losing something like 1/4 of a unit's rent. This doesn't seem like a good deal for the complex, and especially doesn't seem like something that would prompt them to install more outlets so that more people (especially friends of the apartment dwellers) could come over and charge. It seems to me more like something that would cause them to restrict usage of outdoor outlets to either cut costs or recoup costs by charging for charging.
Again, you do realize that today not all charge ports are free, that some of them you need to pay for, either with a credit card or an app. If apt complex management decides that they're paying too much to recharge the EVs they can
  • Charge an EV fee
  • Raise everyone's rent
  • Change the head unit to a charging model.
The third option is about as much work as changing a fixture in your house. The work is in digging a trench, running conduit & repaving to install electric to the recharge poles; once that's done it's easy to change what's on the end of the pole.
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:44 PM
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But the earlier claim was "At the moment they are great options for people in industrialized countries who have access to home charging, typically drive less than 100-200 miles per day (depending on the EV), and can afford an EV as their next car.". Your set is much, much smaller than that - you've limited things to people who never make what I'd call a medium or longer length trip. And I doubt that 20-30% of US drivers *never* drive more than 70 miles in a day, I just haven't seen anything to back that stronger claim up.
Have you considered that people might be OK buying a car that meets 95% of their driving needs, instead of 100%? The average US household has nearly 2 cars, so it's pretty likely that the majority of household in the US have 2+ cars. This article suggests that 35% of US households have 3+ cars (it is a bit older from 2008, so it might be a bit lower now, but likely still a substantial number). Why shouldn't these households have one of their cars as electric? What's preventing single-car owners from renting a car when they want to take a long trip? Yes, it can be inconvenient to rent a car, but it's also inconvenient to take your car for oil changes, or fill up on gas - if it were the other way around, and electric cars were the norm and ICE cars were the emerging technology, would you be like "How could anyone like these gas cars, can you imagine having to go out of your way to fill up on gas every week? What a pain!"

You also don't specify what a "much, much smaller set" of people is who you think an electric car might be suitable for - 1% of the population of the US? 10%? 20%? 30%+?

For the record, I agree that if suddenly 50% of new car sales were electric, it could potentially cause issues with the grid, big lineups at charging stations, etc - but I don't think 50% of new car sales would be electric, even if in isolation, electric cars might be a good technical option for 50% of buyers. Since electric cars are still substantially more expensive up front than their counterparts, sales are going to still be skewed towards what is the best value for buyers as opposed to what is the best technical fit. In addition, even if 100% of the new cars being sold were electric, it would basically take a decade for there to be a majority of cars being electric - so I think there is time for better infrastructure to roll out.
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Old 12-06-2019, 04:57 PM
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Great, so if we assume that electricity rates don't rise with the increased usage, and that a particular apartment complex has a fairly small number of people with electric cars, they're still looking at losing something like 1/4 of a unit's rent. This doesn't seem like a good deal for the complex, and especially doesn't seem like something that would prompt them to install more outlets so that more people (especially friends of the apartment dwellers) could come over and charge. It seems to me more like something that would cause them to restrict usage of outdoor outlets to either cut costs or recoup costs by charging for charging.
Apartment complexes will charge for the electricity one way or the other - either by metering it, charging an estimated-to-be-profitable flat fee on assigned spaces, or by including it in the rent the way the do for any 'quality of life' enhancements like pools and gyms.

This is so obvious I can't imagine why you bothered to write what you wrote.
  #1072  
Old 12-06-2019, 05:02 PM
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But the earlier claim was "At the moment they are great options for people in industrialized countries who have access to home charging, typically drive less than 100-200 miles per day (depending on the EV), and can afford an EV as their next car.". Your set is much, much smaller than that - you've limited things to people who never make what I'd call a medium or longer length trip. And I doubt that 20-30% of US drivers *never* drive more than 70 miles in a day, I just haven't seen anything to back that stronger claim up.
If somebody occasionally has to drive 100 miles in a single day, then they absolutely can - most or all EVs can drive 150 miles on a charge without a problem. Having a regular daily drive of 50-70 miles means that the EV will work for you even if you're sloppy and forgetful and park in darkened gravel lots half the time; they don't mean that your car explodes when you hit mile 71.
  #1073  
Old 12-06-2019, 05:46 PM
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When will someone write a cool song about driving... a Prius?

Car songs of the past:

Little GTO

Little Deuce Coupe

Little Old lady From Pasadena

She's Real Fine My 409

Now just try... please TRY... to take some of those lyrics and apply them to a Prius or a Leaf or a Volt.

For example "Well I'm not bragging babe so dont put me down. But I've got the most fuel efficient car in town. My carbon footprints low and..." sounds pretty pathetic!
  #1074  
Old 12-06-2019, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
When will someone write a cool song about driving... a Prius?

Car songs of the past:

Little GTO

Little Deuce Coupe

Little Old lady From Pasadena

She's Real Fine My 409

Now just try... please TRY... to take some of those lyrics and apply them to a Prius or a Leaf or a Volt.

For example "Well I'm not bragging babe so dont put me down. But I've got the most fuel efficient car in town. My carbon footprints low and..." sounds pretty pathetic!


Putting aside that it's been decades since songs like those were in style...

It's my understanding that your average billion-dollar newest-model Tesla is:

Fast
Great acceleration
Smooth ride
Great handling

But you're right, all those old songs were about how much smoke the car was putting out, not how fast it was.
  #1075  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post


Putting aside that it's been decades since songs like those were in style...

It's my understanding that your average billion-dollar newest-model Tesla is:

Fast
Great acceleration
Smooth ride
Great handling

But you're right, all those old songs were about how much smoke the car was putting out, not how fast it was.
Your forgetting the sound. The engines. Pealing out. Electric cars are almost silent.
  #1076  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:06 PM
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Your forgetting the sound. The engines. Pealing out. Electric cars are almost silent.
Of all the tangents...you're just not pealing out hard enough. Driving sufficiently recklessly and I bet you could squeal some tires.

(And my mind is now leaping to the part of Leader of the Pack where they screech straight into a crash.)

Plus, I thought they usually used guitars to make most of the sound in those songs. I could be misremembering them, though.
  #1077  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
When will someone write a cool song about driving... a Prius?
Back when Car Talk was still on the radio, you know how they always played a different car related song before the breaks? I swear I once heard them play a song about a Prius there. But on their web site they have a database of songs played on the show, and a search for "Prius" returns no results. So I don't know if I'm just imagining that song or what. And if it exists it may well have been a parody song and not a serious song bragging about a Prius.

Quote:
"Well I'm not bragging babe so dont put me down. But I've got the most fuel efficient car in town. My carbon footprints low and..." sounds pretty pathetic!
But on the subject of bragging about having the most fuel efficient car in town, a guy I used to work with bought a first generation Honda Insight when they first came out. He says when he bought it he was also considering a Camaro Z28, a car that couldn't be any more different. But he says he wanted a "performance car", and in his mind extremely high fuel efficiency is just a different kind of performance.

Last edited by WildaBeast; 12-06-2019 at 06:12 PM.
  #1078  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Of all the tangents...you're just not pealing out hard enough. Driving sufficiently recklessly and I bet you could squeal some tires.
Only if you can bypass the traction control system, which I suspect you can't. Obviously with max torque available at low rpms, EVs without traction control could smoke their tires right off.
  #1079  
Old 12-06-2019, 06:22 PM
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Now I'm picturing a song that's like Beep Beep, but with the overtaken driver getting the shit scared out of him by the silent ghost headlights that are stalking and then blasting past him.

So not much like Beep Beep at all, really.
  #1080  
Old 12-06-2019, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Now just try... please TRY... to take some of those lyrics and apply them to a Prius or a Leaf or a Volt.
Teslas are popular in hip-hop.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sean
I might buy her red bottoms with the crypto/Three coins, thatíll pay ya whole semester/But you gotta ride it better than a Tesla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big J
I know they envy me, ridiní in the back of the Tesla/Smokiní on gas in this bitch but it run off of energy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil Wayne
She just want a Tesla Roadster/Iíma get her something slower
  #1081  
Old 12-06-2019, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
For example "Well I'm not bragging babe so dont put me down. But I've got the most fuel efficient car in town. My carbon footprints low and..." sounds pretty pathetic!
How about "Well I'm not braggin' babe so don't put me down, but I've got the fastest set of wheels in town. When something comes up to me he don't even try, cause if I had a set of wings man I know she could fly."? Because those lyrics apply equally well to a high-end EV as they do to a little deuce coupe. Sure, you can make a stupid song about an EV if you want to, but you can make up a stupid song about any ICE too.

Seriously, having actually bothered to look up the lyrics:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
The song is mostly about how cool looking and fast (and small?) the car is. There are mentions about the gearing and the engine whine, but they're a small part of the song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
This song is ALL about how fast the car is. There are a few mentions of engine mods, noise, and, again, those manly four gears, but they're a small part of the song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Not a single mention of anything that couldn't apply equally well to an EV, aside from the car brand itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
This song only has like ten words! So yeah, a rather high proportion of them (if we ignore duplicates) are talking about the physical specs of the car, and nothing about engine sound. The physical specs of an EV could slot in equally well.


Honestly, the real reason you're not seeing songs like these anymore (for any vehicles) is because we don't really admire illegal street racing anymore. Car culture has simply shifted away from boasting about modding your car up and blowing people away.
  #1082  
Old 12-06-2019, 07:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
When will someone write a cool song about driving... a Prius?

Car songs of the past:

Little GTO

Little Deuce Coupe

Little Old lady From Pasadena

She's Real Fine My 409

Now just try... please TRY... to take some of those lyrics and apply them to a Prius or a Leaf or a Volt.

For example "Well I'm not bragging babe so dont put me down. But I've got the most fuel efficient car in town. My carbon footprints low and..." sounds pretty pathetic!
OK Boomer.
  #1083  
Old 12-06-2019, 11:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post

Honestly, the real reason you're not seeing songs like these anymore (for any vehicles) is because we don't really admire illegal street racing anymore. Car culture has simply shifted away from boasting about modding your car up and blowing people away.
Well sort of. There is still an underground scene and they are big into modifying smaller cars.

But yes the old car culture is over. It also ended when gas became more expensive. And then most of the time today your spend stuck in traffic or trying to fit your car into a tiny parking space so all that power under the hood means nothing.

The only thing I see the younger crowd spending money on today are rims and those can be on an EV.
  #1084  
Old Yesterday, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Dewey Finn View Post
First of all, it's ridiculous to claim that EVs have been around for 150 years, given that for a century or more, there were very few of them being sold.
Few roadable passenger vehicles: mostly true; otherwise false. Vehicles for situations unsuited to ICEVs - utility trucks, golf and delivery carts, forklifts, short-range shuttles - have been continuously produced and used. ICEVs are unwelcome in closed warehouses, etc. At the other end of the range are hybrid locos and buses - EVs without fat batteries, essentially running on range extenders. Also the same big vehicles powered by overhead lines, like the trolleys and buses I rode around San Francisco. EVs have surrounded us for a very long time but they mostly weren't branded Ford or Fiat.

Quote:
Second assuming we do understand that these things are in the "early adopter" phase, can we please stop with the stupid arguments about how expensive they are?
"Early adopters" of EVs existed around 1895. We're in the EA stage for automotive LiOn batteries now. Whining about cost will stop when durable batteries are much, much cheaper. Looking at roadable passenger vehicles, can you point to any battery-only EVs costing less than comparably-equipped ICEVs?
  #1085  
Old Yesterday, 01:34 AM
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Fantastic, when i said i think EVs can work for people who drive 50-70 mpd, I meant that was their usual mileage, not the max. As others have pointed out, many people have access to more than one car, either because they own multiple cars or they occasionally rent or borrow.

When I said we are at a camp, I meant like a child's summer camp, not a wilderness camping trip. I'm with a group that has rented out the heated buildings of a camp for a weekend event. This is rural, not wilderness. I apologise for being unclear. Like most rural buildings in the US, these buildings have electrical outlets. My point is just that you don't need exotic infrastructure to charge a car.

And yes, my set of people that might find an ev a good purchase today is smaller than that of some other posters in this thread. Because some posters probably think it would be a good option for me, and yet, here I am, driving a PHEV, not a BEV.
  #1086  
Old Yesterday, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Your forgetting the sound. The engines. Pealing out. Electric cars are almost silent.
Gasoline cars don't sound like they did then, either. Manufacturers now pipe in fake engine noises via the stereo system to produce the expected sound. I had a Mustang convertible for a bit with this annoying feature. It sounded rather like a muscle car with the roof up, but as soon as the roof was done and I could hear the real sound, it was bubbles, like George Jetson's car.
  #1087  
Old Yesterday, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balthisar View Post
It sounded rather like a muscle car with the roof up, but as soon as the roof was done and I could hear the real sound, it was bubbles, like George Jetson's car.
They're working on faking the outside sounds, too. The 2018 Mustang apparently includes a quiet mode that can be set for some times of day. What's the "real" sound of the engine? There isn't one--it's all just tuned baffles and Helmholtz resonators and butterfly valves and so on.
  #1088  
Old Today, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove View Post
They're working on faking the outside sounds, too. The 2018 Mustang apparently includes a quiet mode that can be set for some times of day. What's the "real" sound of the engine? There isn't one--it's all just tuned baffles and Helmholtz resonators and butterfly valves and so on.
while they do use some idiotic resonator from the engine to the bulkhead of the car the engine absolutely has a "real" sound. and it's distinctly different between the standard crank engine and the high performance flat plane crank.
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