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  #351  
Old 08-23-2019, 10:05 AM
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The ultimate power move is to bat til tea on day 4 and set a chase of 500. ��

Winning an Ashes series away from home is historic enough, thank you.

Last edited by penultima thule; 08-23-2019 at 10:07 AM.
  #352  
Old 08-23-2019, 04:26 PM
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Wow, that's why you should never gloat until your own team has batted I guess.
  #353  
Old 08-23-2019, 07:02 PM
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The BBC Test Match Special (TMS) podcast begins with the following announcement.
“WARNING, this podcast includes an angry Yorkshireman”
  #354  
Old 08-23-2019, 07:11 PM
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Wow, that's why you should never gloat until your own team has batted I guess.
Many years ago I said to my father (who knew little about cricket) "We got the West Indies out for 240. " His reply was "Australia has to get them yet". That has stuck with me.

I only watched the English innings and it seemed a lot of poor shots were there. You would think that they can't play like that again and if you have to chase a target Headingly is as good a place as any in England.

I wouldn't be surprised to wake up tomorrow and hear that Australia has won. Nor would it surprise me to hear England had won (maybe the day after).
  #355  
Old 08-23-2019, 10:10 PM
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What ever happened to classical defensive batting. It seems that modern batsmen need medium pacers bowling unthreatening deliveries to,perform, ball misbehaves even slightly, and they have a fit.
Archer is quick, but, it’s not like he is prime Thommo, or Shoaib. Why are people struggling against him.
  #356  
Old 08-23-2019, 11:04 PM
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What ever happened to classical defensive batting. It seems that modern batsmen need medium pacers bowling unthreatening deliveries to,perform, ball misbehaves even slightly, and they have a fit.
Archer is quick, but, it’s not like he is prime Thommo, or Shoaib. Why are people struggling against him.
Exactly. I think the main reason is he is very good and mostly, the batters aren't. However I thought the English players would handle the Australian attack a lot better as well so I think I'm missing something. I think Englands next innings will tell a lot.
  #357  
Old 08-23-2019, 11:56 PM
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Archer is quick, but, it’s not like he is prime Thommo, or Shoaib. Why are people struggling against him.
But he is.
He tops out above 155k. That’s absolute top shelf pace. There is also no sign, as happened with Shoab and Lee, that bowling above 155k his action begins to break.
There was a comment from Ravi Bopara who has faced him in county cricket that he doesn’t dip his head when bowling short. George Bailey his BBL captain said the same. That means two less clues for a batsman as to length.

He maintains his form even at top pace. He stands tall, doesn’t drop his arm, stays over the stumps. And he bowled better at Headingly than Lords even with pace off a touch. He’s a Rolls Royce and the main risk is over bowling him.

Need to remember that these guys get clocked out of the hand, Thompson was measured at 160+ from the batsman’s end. Jeffery Robert Thompson was way quicker than any of the recent and current quicks.
  #358  
Old 08-24-2019, 12:13 AM
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Need to remember that these guys get clocked out of the hand, Thompson was measured at 160+ from the batsman’s end. Jeffery Robert Thompson was way quicker than any of the recent and current quicks.
PT, could you please explain this is bit more? I think I understand what you mean but I'd like to be sure.

Bradman stated that he thought Frank Tyson was the quickest bowler he had seen in that one series in Australia. It isn't clear when he made the comment but it was before the Holding and Roberts era.
  #359  
Old 08-24-2019, 12:39 AM
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Everyone from the past is faster then the current jumped up medium pacers.
Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib, Donald, Holding, Lillee, Brett Lee, Roberts, Imran Khan, Garner, Walsh, Ambrose, McDermott, Jon Snow...
The list goes on and on.

Even fast medium guys from the last generation, like McGrath, or Charminda Vaas would be considered “fast” today.
Archer is fast, but come on, at the top level batsman should be able to play him. It’s not like he had McGrath like accuracy, Waqar type swing and Thommo style chin music.
  #360  
Old 08-24-2019, 01:39 AM
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PT, could you please explain this is bit more? I think I understand what you mean but I'd like to be sure.
Current bowling speeds are calculated from the TV cameras based on the number of high speed frames the ball crosses as delivered.

In Thomson's time the technology was more rudimentary and they used a radar detector speed gun aligned at the batsman's end.

So Thomson was clocked over 160km/hr at the batsman's end (ie after losing speed to 20 yards air resistance plus bouncing) while Shoab, Lee and Starc, the only other bowlers I am aware who have been timed over 160km/hr are timed in the milliseconds from release from the hand.

You can also factor in that at his peak in Ashes 1974/75 Thomson bowled into the wind, Lillee getting the downwind gig.

I can't find a primary source for Bradman's quote but there is some suggestion it dated from the 1960s. Mind you, there's no question that Typhoon was "once in a generation" quick.
  #361  
Old 08-24-2019, 05:15 AM
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Current bowling speeds are calculated from the TV cameras based on the number of high speed frames the ball crosses as delivered.

In Thomson's time the technology was more rudimentary and they used a radar detector speed gun aligned at the batsman's end.

So Thomson was clocked over 160km/hr at the batsman's end (ie after losing speed to 20 yards air resistance plus bouncing) while Shoab, Lee and Starc, the only other bowlers I am aware who have been timed over 160km/hr are timed in the milliseconds from release from the hand.

You can also factor in that at his peak in Ashes 1974/75 Thomson bowled into the wind, Lillee getting the downwind gig.

I can't find a primary source for Bradman's quote but there is some suggestion it dated from the 1960s. Mind you, there's no question that Typhoon was "once in a generation" quick.
Thank you. I thought that was what you meant re the speeds. The source of the Bradman statement was on ESPN. I'll see if I can find it again. However, the article mentioned that the Roberts etc hadn't appeared so with no mention of Thommo yet to appear to seems he had seen him.


I think I have mentioned before that I was speaking to Phil Carlson's (former Australian player) brother at one stage and he stated that Phil had said that Lillee was more skilful but with Thommo it was a ball that would seemingly come from nowhere at a terrible speed.

My terrible prediction for tonight (3rd day) Australia to lead by 310. England to get 280. Based on no real thought process whatsoever.

Question- people have suggested that Root is shot and needs to be replaced as Captain. Who by?

Last edited by Cicero; 08-24-2019 at 05:18 AM.
  #362  
Old 08-24-2019, 05:18 AM
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Okay this is the link on ESPN and was written in 2011, however it mentions that Thommo was considered.
  #363  
Old 08-24-2019, 06:30 AM
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Okay, my first prediction of the lead was crap. However it does signify to me that the going is easier today. I think England are a chance- the one factor we haven't really seen is spin. Maybe interesting.
  #364  
Old 08-24-2019, 06:34 AM
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ENG need 359 to keep the series open.
A bridge too far methinks.
  #365  
Old 08-24-2019, 06:49 AM
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ENG need 359 to keep the series open.
A bridge too far methinks.
Probably right but I just feel England can not bat as horribly again.
  #366  
Old 08-24-2019, 10:28 AM
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Probably right but I just feel England can not bat as horribly again.
But there's a long way between a terrible 67 and a winning 350
  #367  
Old 08-24-2019, 12:31 PM
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I suspect it's been said in this thread before, but it's the hope that gets you.
  #368  
Old 08-25-2019, 05:33 AM
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Root decides to dance down the wicket at Lyon.
(When did he last try that?)
Big inside edge onto pad, big deflection over Paine and a handy catch at slip.

One more good ball and the fat lady can clear her throat.
  #369  
Old 08-25-2019, 05:59 AM
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Root decides to dance down the wicket at Lyon.
(When did he last try that?)
Big inside edge onto pad, big deflection over Paine and a handy catch at slip.

One more good ball and the fat lady can clear her throat.
Confident? I'm not but rarely am. It's a big ask for England now.
  #370  
Old 08-25-2019, 08:41 AM
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7 down, with another hundred to get, and that fat lady is starting the car. All over bar the shouting.
  #371  
Old 08-25-2019, 09:09 AM
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7 down, with another hundred to get, and that fat lady is starting the car. All over bar the shouting.
I wouldn't give up yet, if I were you. Stokes looks good, and it only takes one person to stay with him and we might be looking at a really close game. I'm biting my nails here, looking for a wicket.

Reminds me a bit of the Boxing Day test in 1982, when Allan Border and Jeff Thomson put on 70-odd for the 10th wicket and almost pulled off a miraculous victory, before Thomson was caught by Miller in the slips after the ball had popped out of Chris Tavare's hands.
  #372  
Old 08-25-2019, 09:23 AM
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Will take some brilliance from Stokes and some resilience from Leach
  #373  
Old 08-25-2019, 09:26 AM
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Will take some brilliance from Stokes and some resilience from Leach
Yeah, it will take a miracle for England now. There's something to admire about Jofra's aggression, but I'm not sure it was the right strategy.
  #374  
Old 08-25-2019, 09:59 AM
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Is anyone watching this?

Stokes is putting together one of the greatest batting performances in test cricket history. A reverse sweep for six, followed a bit later by a boundary to reach 100, followed up immediately by two consecutive sixes.

18 to win now!

Last edited by mhendo; 08-25-2019 at 10:00 AM.
  #375  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:18 AM
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Knight this man immediately!
  #376  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:32 AM
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Well, that was one of the most exciting days of text crickets I've ever watched.

What was I saying about memories of Border and Thomson? Stokes and Leach put on 76 for the 10th wicket. Leach scored possibly the best 1* in test cricket history.

Can't believe that the Aussies wasted a review on a clearly not out LBW decision, only to have a clear LBW turned down and not have a review left. And I can't believe that Lyons dropped the ball on that run-out opportunity right at the end.

Series tied 1-1. Game on!

As I said on an English message board where I post: Fuck all of you Poms! You don't deserve a player as good as Ben Stokes, and neither does the rest of your crappy team.
  #377  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:38 AM
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I thought England had used up all of its luck in the WC Final?
  #378  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:42 AM
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Well, that was one of the most exciting days of text crickets I've ever watched.
WTF?

Text crickets?
  #379  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:51 AM
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Check out the tweet sent out by the England Cricket twitter account at the end of the game.
  #380  
Old 08-25-2019, 10:53 AM
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Cricket, eh?

And this is why we hope, because it can happen. I'm in France this week, on a caravan park, burning the last of my data on streaming the Iplayer because the park WiFi is terrible, and I'm surrounded by French people who don't know or care, but this has been the best holiday ever already.

Roll on Old Trafford.
  #381  
Old 08-25-2019, 11:07 AM
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It's been a wild year. Arguably it's not the best Test match innings put together this year - Kusal Perera put together a bigger last wicket partnership against SA to get them over the line - and it's not the most amazing thing to happen to English cricket this summer either (do you need me to fill in these parentheses?). And lucky as all fuck too, with Lyon dropping the run out and Wilson going blind on that last lbw decision (plus Australia kippered themselves by using their reviews in profligate fashion). England have just won a Test match having been bowled out for 67 (the 4th lowest score of all time, the lowest in 130+ years) and I still don't think they are going to win this series; you don't get bowled out for 67 without having serious flaws in your batting line up. But it's still alive and fair enough. Smith to come back, Anderson probably to come back too. Old Trafford will be interesting.

Fixing England's batting is going to take years. Dobell on cricinfo has written a take down in the middle of this match, post the 67 all out innings, which is as about as succinct an appraisal as can be mustered. The ECB have sold the red ball game down the river for the home World Cup and the prospect of money out of T20 and the upcoming Hundred tournament. We're not developing Test match bats and it's obvious given the scores over the last 18 months - we have regularly been dismissed for fewer than three figures - and getting bailed out by an admittedly amazing innings by Ben Stokes shouldn't paper over the cracks. But then you look at the stands today - rammed at north of £80 a ticket (and you sell 4 days out per Test) and it's pretty bloody obvious that there's life in Test cricket yet, money certainly, and they're potentially going to kill this revenue stream if they don't put out a competitive batting unit. It's going to take some time to fix - but fix it, they must.
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Old 08-25-2019, 11:45 AM
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It's been fixed now, but for a while today the Wikipedia entry for the Ashes said:
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The Ashes is a Test cricket series played between Ben Stokes and Australia.
  #383  
Old 08-25-2019, 11:51 AM
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Oh - something else whilst I read through the stuff I have missed on the thread. Many thanks for best wishes from those on the thread. Confirmed that the last place I could have got a job within the company isn't going to keep me on, so this week, I should get final confirmation of redundancy. On to the next thing, I guess. At least I paid for my Ashes tickets to The Oval test some months ago...
  #384  
Old 08-25-2019, 12:07 PM
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It's been a wild year. Arguably it's not the best Test match innings put together this year - Kusal Perera put together a bigger last wicket partnership against SA to get them over the line - and it's not the most amazing thing to happen to English cricket this summer either (do you need me to fill in these parentheses?). And lucky as all fuck too, with Lyon dropping the run out and Wilson going blind on that last lbw decision (plus Australia kippered themselves by using their reviews in profligate fashion). England have just won a Test match having been bowled out for 67 (the 4th lowest score of all time, the lowest in 130+ years) and I still don't think they are going to win this series; you don't get bowled out for 67 without having serious flaws in your batting line up. But it's still alive and fair enough. Smith to come back, Anderson probably to come back too. Old Trafford will be interesting.
Yeah, I didn't see Perera's innings, but every account said it was fantastic, and just the numbers show that it's at least as good as the one by Stokes.

I agree that England got a bit lucky. As an Aussie fan, I'm far more upset by the bad use of reviews than by Lyon's mis-field on the run-out chance. Anyone can make a fielding error like that, but on the LBW review, it was clear to anyone with a pair of eyes that Cummins' ball pitched way outside leg stump. It must have been clear to the bowler, and to the wicket-keeper (and captain) Tim Paine. I was swearing at the screen when they called for the review. Admittedly, with so few runs left to get, they might have thought that they wouldn't get another chance to review anyway, but it was still a terrible decision. And wouldn't you know it, only a few minutes later they desperately needed it when Wilson turned down the next leg-before appeal.

Still, the Aussies had some luck too. The rain delay after the second wicket on Day 1 probably helped them out, and the English fielders gave Labuschagne what seemed like nine lives. I agree with all your points about England's red-ball woes, but this Australian team isn't exactly setting the world on fire either. If England had managed to score even 120 in their first innings, and/or held onto a catch when Labuschagne gave them a chance, they wouldn't have needed Stokes' historic heroics to win the match.

Best of luck with your job search, Cumbrian. Have fun at The Oval test. I hope that the Aussies have managed to sew up the Ashes by then.
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Old 08-25-2019, 12:11 PM
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Stokes ... bloody hell

(and sorry to hear that Cumbrian and all the best in your job search)
  #386  
Old 08-25-2019, 12:43 PM
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So I've been on a french beach for most of the day. Flakey wifi and intermittent updates. My boules and frisbee is not all it is cracked up to be but I did create a minature oxbow lake and caught shrimps and a hermit crab.

Don't suppose I missed much in the cricket did I?
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  #387  
Old 08-25-2019, 03:14 PM
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Nope nothing much really.
  #388  
Old 08-25-2019, 06:03 PM
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In hindsight there were some markers there. Alot of focus on Englands 67, but it didn't give Australia a massive lead. They needed to bat better in the second innings and didn't. At England 3 down and the wicket starting to play better- well, a win was a long way off but possible. At 7 down requiring 100 not so good but Australia let England off the hook with a dropped catch, a missed run out and screwing up the reviews.

Series on!
  #389  
Old 08-25-2019, 09:34 PM
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Cicero do you think Paine is a long term leadership option?
  #390  
Old 08-26-2019, 03:56 AM
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To be fair to umpire Wilson (not that my lack of expertise is much consolation), on first look at the lbw he didn't give, I thought it wasn't doing enough and would have missed leg. In fact it was a big turner, but given it hit the pad fairly low, that wasn't obvious until the replay/ball tracker. I hope it teaches all captains an important lesson about reviews (that they really ought to have learned by now, anyway).

With that and other matters, England were certainly the luckier side overall. TPTB must be absolutely delighted with how it sets up the rest of the series, though. It's really too close to call in the series now. Will England be able to ride the crest of this wave and put together a good enough performance to take it, or will it galvanise Australia into crushing us?

If only we had a Boycott/Gooch/Atherton/Stewart/Trescothick/Strauss/Cook (anyone care to add to that list?) to open the batting - or even a Warner (yes, we're that desperate) we might be a half decent side. I saw Vaughan on the highlights helpfully suggesting Roy moves to 4 without offering a name to replace him. Because there isn't anyone.
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Old 08-26-2019, 04:17 AM
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I think the most amazing aspect of Stokes' innings was that, before he scored his third run he was playing the fifth slowest innings in Test history for batsmen facing over 60 deliveries.

I thought in the World Cup match with Australia he had been in the process of single handledly winning that game, until he got that amazing Starc yorker. Same MO, came in at 3 for 20 odd, dawdled along and then started to really let go. Not much resistance when he left but I think had he hung around England would have got the runs there too.

He would have won the game against Sri Lanka with one decent partner. The last 4 got 6 between them. Stokes got 24 off the last 10 balls he faced.

So what he had planned was no secret it was just impossible to stop.
  #392  
Old 08-26-2019, 04:22 AM
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Cicero do you think Paine is a long term leadership option?
Tactically he seems fine and I have read that he has been very good in pulling the team together after the shambles of RSA. However he has blundered with the reviews and it must be difficult for a wicket keeper to know about an LBW appeal.

However, the problem would be as to who to replace him. Smith and Warner are out, the bowlers retation policy would rule them out (except Lyon) and with the likelihood of Khuwaja being dropped for Smith you really have only Wade or Lyon. I think Paine is pretty safe- and he also will have Smith back to assist with the harder tasks (if he wishes).
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Old 08-26-2019, 07:24 AM
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To be fair to umpire Wilson (not that my lack of expertise is much consolation), on first look at the lbw he didn't give, I thought it wasn't doing enough and would have missed leg. In fact it was a big turner, but given it hit the pad fairly low, that wasn't obvious until the replay/ball tracker. I hope it teaches all captains an important lesson about reviews (that they really ought to have learned by now, anyway).
Yeah, I don't really blame Wilson for not giving him out on the initial appeal. I thought, seeing it live and full speed, that there was a chance it was out, but I suspected it was missing. When I saw the slow motion replay with ball tracker, I was surprised at how easily it was hitting the stumps. I wasn't annoyed with the umpire; I was annoyed with the Aussies for wasting their review.
  #394  
Old 08-26-2019, 02:01 PM
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Yeah, I don't really blame Wilson for not giving him out on the initial appeal. I thought, seeing it live and full speed, that there was a chance it was out, but I suspected it was missing. When I saw the slow motion replay with ball tracker, I was surprised at how easily it was hitting the stumps. I wasn't annoyed with the umpire; I was annoyed with the Aussies for wasting their review.
Apparently, with multiple further viewings and feedback from Stokes the consensus is that it did hit the front the pad which straightened the flight and Hawkeye didn't seem to take that into account. That suggests that the true track would have taken it more down leg. Looking at it myself for the first time that certainly seems plausible to me, after hearing the commentary I was expecting it to be no-brainer plumb but my initial thought was that it clipped the front pad.
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Old 08-26-2019, 05:23 PM
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I'm afraid I can't be as forgiving. He is an elite level umpire and getting paid as such, and has had the benefit of seeing how the ball is going .It is not the first error he has made.

Also I can't quite get the logic. The ball hits the front pad and straightens but Hawkeye doesn't take that into account. I don't buy it - there is sufficient length between where the ball pitches and where it strikes for Hawkeye to gey a fix.

However the bottom line is that Stokes won the game. Australia had their chances.
  #396  
Old 08-26-2019, 05:41 PM
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I'm afraid I can't be as forgiving. He is an elite level umpire and getting paid as such, and has had the benefit of seeing how the ball is going .It is not the first error he has made.
If the ball did hit the front pad and diverted it onto a stump-trajectory and the umpire based his decision accordingly (on the first point of contact), then it was probably a very good decision.

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Also I can't quite get the logic. The ball hits the front pad and straightens but Hawkeye doesn't take that into account. I don't buy it - there is sufficient length between where the ball pitches and where it strikes for Hawkeye to gey a fix.
perhaps, perhaps not. It certainly isn't foolproof and it isn't used to plot deflection off the bat so I don't know if it is able to differentiate between movement off the surface, through the air and off a pad.

Stokes says it hit his front pad, I'm not sure what he has to gain by saying so. Hawkeye plotted the contact point in relation to the back pad. Either Stokes is lying or mistaken or Hawkeye got it slightly wrong. I don't know. To my eye it certainly looks like it clipped the front pad.
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Old 08-26-2019, 06:25 PM
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Novelty Bobble, I'll take your word. You have more reasons to watch it over and over than I have
  #398  
Old 08-26-2019, 08:12 PM
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In other news NZ pulled out a win against Sri Lanka, despite losing 145 overs to rain. Latham and Watling both got centuries, and they managed to bowl Sri Lanka out for 122 in less than a day.

Last edited by lisiate; 08-26-2019 at 08:12 PM.
  #399  
Old 08-27-2019, 12:18 AM
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Location: Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lisiate View Post
In other news NZ pulled out a win against Sri Lanka, despite losing 145 overs to rain. Latham and Watling both got centuries, and they managed to bowl Sri Lanka out for 122 in less than a day.
Yes, one of the commentators on the sporting channel was mentioning how it was expected to be a draw and then the Kiwi's just pilled out a great bowling performance to win it for them.

AK 84, said expert was asked bluntly if he thought Paine was in trouble as a captain, and the guy said he is probably safe for the next two Tests.
  #400  
Old 08-27-2019, 01:11 AM
Cicero is offline
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Originally Posted by mhendo View Post
I wouldn't give up yet, if I were you. Stokes looks good, and it only takes one person to stay with him and we might be looking at a really close game. I'm biting my nails here, looking for a wicket.

Reminds me a bit of the Boxing Day test in 1982, when Allan Border and Jeff Thomson put on 70-odd for the 10th wicket and almost pulled off a miraculous victory, before Thomson was caught by Miller in the slips after the ball had popped out of Chris Tavare's hands.
I was watching that Test and remember the damn Sidchrome advertisement robbing us of watching the ball live.
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