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  #351  
Old 11-20-2019, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
I would advise people to approach dating like interviewing a candidate for a job.
So long as we're suggesting that people put deal breakers prominently in their online profile, I'd very much like anyone who thinks dating should be treated like a job interview to mention that prominently, because that's way more of a turnoff than anything that's been mentioned in this thread so far.
  #352  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
That's weird.

Weirded out I could see. I was speaking specifically about being "insulted".
Isn't the end result the same though? If a person is trying to fool people into thinking that they're worth dating, then both offending them and weirding them out have the same end result: no nookie for youkie.
  #353  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
Some people don't like to waste time and money. In many cases factors such as age and how terrible the economy is make this rather prudent. It's a irritating as hell to go to the trouble of a date when there is absolutely no possibility it could lead to anything because of "dealbreakers" in preferences. I would advise people to approach dating like interviewing a candidate for a job. Get the important prerequisites out of the way first.
So you agree that if someone else being trans is a dealbreaker for you, its up to you to put that info in your profile to avoid wasting anyone's time?
  #354  
Old 11-20-2019, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Miller View Post
So long as we're suggesting that people put deal breakers prominently in their online profile, I'd very much like anyone who thinks dating should be treated like a job interview to mention that prominently, because that's way more of a turnoff than anything that's been mentioned in this thread so far.
What, you've never been on a date where you start with HR, then meet 3 or 4 people who'd really rather be doing something else, maybe one at a time, maybe in a committee, then finally get to meet the person who decides whether or not there will be second date?
  #355  
Old 11-20-2019, 04:22 PM
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Sure, but a trans person isn't lying in their profile -- they just aren't providing the additional information that they are trans. So it wouldn't be like somebody living hundreds of miles away -- it would be like someone simply putting "California" for their location, instead of either San Diego or Sacramento. If that's not specific enough for you, don't ask them out.

Unless REALLY, what you have issue with is the idea that a trans man would put "Male" on his profile, or that a trans woman would put "Female" on her profile? Do you consider that to be lying? Because if so, then yes, you are a bigot and a transphobe.
A person reading the profile should not have to act like a lawyer and investigate every question. There are expected and typical assumptions made from the information in a profile. If the person put "San Diego" on their profile because they happened to be in the San Diego airport at the time even though they live in Seattle, the responsibility should be more on them to reveal that the typical assumptions about location may not apply. If the profile doesn't say anything about Seattle, then it should come up pretty quickly in the initial communications.

I feel the same goes for putting Female or Male in the profile of a major dating site. There are going to be many typical and reasonable expectations made by people who read that. It is extremely common for genitals to match the F or M designation on the profile. It's probably one of the attributes on the profile which has the least amount of variation. Things like age, weight, and height are often taken with a bit of suspicion, but I would assume that hardly ever would there be a mismatch between the F/M designation and the type of genitals. If the person has fully transitioned and would match typical assumptions, they may not have to mention anything during the dating process. But otherwise, I feel that they should reveal they are trans at some point, and based on how that goes, later reveal that they have not fully transitioned.

Here's my opinion on how it should go:

- Major dating site where just F/M is specified. Sometime during the pre-date chats, mention trans status. If chats lead to date, go on date and evaluate the potential for relationship. If a relationship might be possible, soon after 1st date bring up that transition isn't complete

- Site where TS is on profile (like in OP). No need to say anything. If the person knows about the trans status, a reasonable assumption is that there is variability in transition state. If the interested person is only looking for a certain configuration of body parts, it's up to them to bring it up.
  #356  
Old 11-20-2019, 06:27 PM
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You are missing the point rather badly, which is that it is absurd to treat the rare exceptions as if it were the rule.
Nobody's missing that "point": the problem with it is, and always has been, that it's a dishonest and evasive point to make in this context.

Yes, transgender women are a very small subset of all women and it's comparatively very rare to encounter transgender women on a dating site. So there's nothing wrong with not mentioning the issue of transgender identity in your profile at all, if you're willing to accept the very slight possibility that you might interact with a woman you don't know is transgender and end up dropping her acquaintance when you find out she's transgender.

But if you feel very strongly that you want to avoid all dating contact with transgender women even at the most superficial level, it's your responsibility to state that clearly.

Making up silly rules about what other people are allegedly "supposed" or "obligated" to publicly disclose about themselves in order to relieve you of that responsibility is not a persuasive argument. Neither is attempting to muddy the waters with silly statisticulations about the comparative rarity of one situation versus another.

If you absolutely insist on keeping certain categories of people out of your dating pool entirely, then it's your responsibility to make that clear. The fact that you perceive that basic ethical fact as "virtue signaling", which seems to be a conservative way of complaining that basic ethical behavior is too much work or too inconvenient, reflects far more negatively on you than on me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by filmore
I feel the same goes for putting Female or Male in the profile of a major dating site. There are going to be many typical and reasonable expectations made by people who read that. It is extremely common for genitals to match the F or M designation on the profile.
Sure it's extremely common. But it's not universal, and it's not anybody else's responsibility to perform a statistical analysis to try to estimate whether you individually might be someone who requires gender identity to match genital anatomy at birth, or might not.

Unless the dating site you're on specifically mandates that users' F or M designation must match their birth genitals, users are just going to have to be aware that there may be rare cases where it doesn't match. You (generic "you") can deal with that in any honest and ethical way you want. But sulking and whining that other people are obligated to reveal private information about their genitalia so that you don't have to question your automatic-but-not-universally-correct assumptions about them is neither honest nor ethical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by filmore
If the person has fully transitioned and would match typical assumptions, they may not have to mention anything during the dating process. But otherwise, I feel that they should reveal they are trans at some point, and based on how that goes, later reveal that they have not fully transitioned.
I completely agree that they should reveal that at some point, and would even add that perhaps that should also be expected of transgender people who have fully transitioned, since some people feel that's still significantly different from being cisgender.

But I don't think we can reasonably and ethically expect "some point" to mean "stated right in the dating profile".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delayed Reflex
IMO, posting "I am not interested in dating transgender people" is similar in nature to "I am not interested in dating people under 6 feet tall" - by revealing your preferences up front, you avoid wasting people's time, but you also expose yourself to people avoiding you because you outwardly express your bias.
Yep, I totally recognize that this is a fundamental reason why so many cisgender people expect transgender people to take on the task of self-screening, so that they (the cisgender people) don't have to take responsibility for admitting their own biases.

Mind you, I don't think there's anything wrong at all with having a bias against dating transgender people if you (generic "you") don't happen to be sexually attracted to transgender people. But I agree that some people, cisgender as well as transgender, might view it as unappealing to express that bias right upfront, and might avoid you in consequence. Too bad; it doesn't alter your obligation to take responsibility for honestly and ethically dealing with your own biases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delayed Reflex
What are people's thoughts on "hidden" screening of attributes on online dating platforms?
As I said when a similar mechanism was proposed earlier in the thread, I'm absolutely fine with it as long as all participants are clear and consenting on the rules for disclosing attributes.

But if participants can opt out of disclosing any particular attribute, then other participants should not make arbitrary assumptions about what they're justified in inferring about those undisclosed attributes. No matter how statistically probable or otherwise those assumed inferences might be.

Last edited by Kimstu; 11-20-2019 at 06:32 PM.
  #357  
Old 11-20-2019, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by begbert2 View Post
Isn't the end result the same though? If a person is trying to fool people into thinking that they're worth dating, then both offending them and weirding them out have the same end result: no nookie for youkie.
I suspect that more people could get over being weirded out than being insulted.
  #358  
Old 11-21-2019, 12:24 AM
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There was an Ask Me Anything Reddit thread many years ago started by a man with two functional penises. Should he have to disclose his genital status?
  #359  
Old 11-21-2019, 09:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronald Raygun View Post
There was an Ask Me Anything Reddit thread many years ago started by a man with two functional penises. Should he have to disclose his genital status?
While that's unusual, it would fall along the continuum of genitalia. Variations in genitals and sexual areas are normal and typical, such as breast, butt, penis and vagina sizes. I believe I've even heard of women who have two vaginas. I would consider two penises or two vaginas to be strange and should be disclosed at some point before intimacy just so that the other person would not be surprised at that time. However, I would not think those things would typically be a dealbreaker where the other person would immediately want to terminate the relationship.
  #360  
Old 11-21-2019, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Babale View Post
So you agree that if someone else being trans is a dealbreaker for you, its up to you to put that info in your profile to avoid wasting anyone's time?
I think it's appropriate to ask about dealbreakers within the first minutes of conversation with a potential life partner.
  #361  
Old 11-21-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by muldoonthief View Post
What, you've never been on a date where you start with HR, then meet 3 or 4 people who'd really rather be doing something else, maybe one at a time, maybe in a committee, then finally get to meet the person who decides whether or not there will be second date?
Exchange matchmaker for HR and have the next level of 3 or 4 people very enthusiastic and diligent about meeting the candidate and you have more or less described the structure of dating in cultures of arranged marriage.

Last edited by ZPG Zealot; 11-21-2019 at 06:39 PM.
  #362  
Old 11-21-2019, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
I think it's appropriate to ask about dealbreakers within the first minutes of conversation with a potential life partner.
So if, today, you were to go on a first date, you would ask your potential partner if they were trans or not within the first minutes of the conversation?
  #363  
Old 11-21-2019, 06:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
I think it's appropriate to ask about dealbreakers within the first minutes of conversation with a potential life partner.
If you did that to me that would be a dealbreaker - if I'm looking for romance or even a friendly conversation, leading with an interrogation would show me you're not the sort of interaction I'm looking for.

However I can see it coming up pretty soon after the ice has been reasonably broken, perhaps even before the first date is set up.
  #364  
Old 11-21-2019, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ronald Raygun View Post
There was an Ask Me Anything Reddit thread many years ago started by a man with two functional penises. Should he have to disclose his genital status?
Thatís a good question. Now I got some googling to do.
  #365  
Old 11-21-2019, 07:47 PM
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So if, today, you were to go on a first date, you would ask your potential partner if they were trans or not within the first minutes of the conversation?
I would have asked that and expected an answer to the question (and a number of others) before even agreeing to meet with the person.
  #366  
Old 11-22-2019, 02:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Ronald Raygun View Post
There was an Ask Me Anything Reddit thread many years ago started by a man with two functional penises. Should he have to disclose his genital status?
I think each penis should have its own independent account on the dating site, that is, if penises are indeed such an important and deciding factor in all of this.
  #367  
Old 11-22-2019, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by ZPG Zealot View Post
I would have asked that and expected an answer to the question (and a number of others) before even agreeing to meet with the person.
By doing that you're also going to be selecting for other people who think this is a reasonable sort of thing to do before agreeing to meet; because the others will get annoyed, or offended, or worried that you'll turn out to be overcontrolling, or just decide they don't want to bother with all that before meeting for coffee, and they'll bow out.

That might quite possibly be a good idea for both of you; but I suspect it's going to narrow your pool of potential dates pretty sharply. If having or not having the sort of personality which tries to check for all possible dealbreakers before meeting is itself one of your dealbreakers, it may be worth it. If that isn't one of them, however, you'd be potentially missing out on meeting whoever you're looking for.
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