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Old 09-13-2019, 02:14 AM
kambuckta is offline
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Why does (insert interaction with bureaucracy) have to be so hard?


I recently moved across the country, and being a resident now in a new state, toddled up to the local vehicle licencing office this morning to transfer my driver's licence.

Farking hell. My current licence, passport, birth certificate, and a hastily sought letter from a govt department showing my new address, debit cards, credit cards and a dinkum govt issued social security card were apparently not friggin enough.

Because I was married once, and was known by another surname for the duration of the marriage, I need to provide paperwork showing my married name. FFS. For the record, I have nothing and will now have to apply to get dupes of marriage and divorce papers....from 30 bloody years ago. Just to transfer my driver's licence.

It's bureaucracy gone freaking mad I tell ya.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:27 AM
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Geeze, that's worse than the crap they're doing to us for our fancy new secure licenses.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 09-13-2019 at 02:27 AM.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Lord Feldon View Post
Geeze, that's worse than the crap they're doing to us for our fancy new secure licenses.
It's bullshit. I didn't need half of that crap to apply for a bleedin' PASSPORT, which is meant to be a far more rigorous process.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:49 AM
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No. All a passport does is identify you as "xyz" and a citizen of a country. A passort grant is based upon a presumption (due to other documents) that i) you are who you say you are and ii) you are a citizen or entitled to the passport.

A drivers license is a de facto ID Card in Australia and they have no other "basic" documents to acertain who you are.
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Old 09-13-2019, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post

A drivers license is a de facto ID Card in Australia and they have no other "basic" documents to acertain who you are.
I HAVE a current, valid licence. Combined with my other ID, photographic and otherwise, that should be enough don't you think?
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Old 09-13-2019, 05:28 AM
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Once formed, any bureaucracy begins evolving toward a single purpose: Increasing the power and wealth of the bureaucracy's members, and decreasing their responsibility, accountability and effort. There are no exceptions.

The longer a bureaucracy has been in operation, the more progress it will have made toward these goals, and the less responsive and useful it will become to the users and purpose for which it was originally formed.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:15 AM
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I am a little confused - do all of your documents have your current name? If so, then how do the bureaucrats know that you ever used the other name. If some of the documents have the name you no longer use , then they need the marriage/divorce documents to connect kambuckta jones to kambuckta smith.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:17 AM
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And it's security theater.

To renew my license a while back I needed a birth certificate. To get the birth certificate they needed a scan of my current driver's license. In other words, my current license was good enough to get my new license. I just had to pay $ and jump thru hoops.

None of this proved that the person on the docs was me. If I was an identity thief before, I'm now a fully certified identity thief.
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Old 09-13-2019, 10:40 AM
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I got my Pennsylvania Medical Marijuana card in April. When I was entering my data on the Department of Health's website, I noticed that the form was very unforgiving. My input was compared with the Department of Transportation's driver's license data and any variation lead to the entire page of input being marked ineligible. You aren't told what specific entry is problematic.

So, if your address is 123 Any Street and you enter it as such, it will be declined if on your license it reads 123 Any St. Indeed, if your license says 123 Any St and you input it as 123 Any St. (with the period) you are ineligible. Extra spaces are a problem, and everything is case sensitive, except where it's not; as a last resort for one guy I entered everything in all caps and it worked.

I've helped a bunch of applicants via Facebook Messenger, and in one case I stopped at a guy's apartment one evening and helped him register. It's kind of sad; a bunch of stoners trying to become legal, and it seems like the state is fucking around with them.
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:33 PM
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An acquaintance who worked in the public sector once explained that what often happens is the following:

1. There's some real or perhaps merely perceived incident of fraud/waste/corruption/etc.
2. People demand that the government do something to prevent further incidents like it from happening in the future.
3. Government listens to it's constituents and puts stricter rules in place.
4. Years pass, and the original incident from step 1 fades from memory.
5. People run into the rules they demanded be enacted in step 2 and complain "Why does X need to be so difficult?"
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Old 09-13-2019, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WildaBeast View Post
1. There's some real or perhaps merely perceived incident of fraud/waste/corruption/etc.
2. People demand that the government do something to prevent further incidents like it from happening in the future.
3. Government listens to it's constituents and puts stricter rules in place.
4. Years pass, and the original incident from step 1 fades from memory.
5. People run into the rules they demanded be enacted in step 2 and complain "Why does X need to be so difficult?"
6. Complaints arrive on desk of inexperienced administrator lacking either (1) access to persons with institutional memory or (2) enough humility to consult same, who then repeals rules.
7. Cycle repeats at #1.

Last edited by KneadToKnow; 09-13-2019 at 03:00 PM.
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Old 09-13-2019, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by doreen View Post
I am a little confused - do all of your documents have your current name? If so, then how do the bureaucrats know that you ever used the other name. If some of the documents have the name you no longer use , then they need the marriage/divorce documents to connect kambuckta jones to kambuckta smith.
All of my documents have my current name, which is the same as my birth name. But one of the questions on the application form asked 'Have you ever been known by another name?', to which I answered truthfully, 'Yes'.

I'm a bloody idiot and should have just said No.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:57 PM
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Be glad you didn't move to Texas from Alaska, and have your license refused as being from a foreign country.
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:23 PM
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And it's security theater.

To renew my license a while back I needed a birth certificate. To get the birth certificate they needed a scan of my current driver's license. In other words, my current license was good enough to get my new license. I just had to pay $ and jump thru hoops.

None of this proved that the person on the docs was me. If I was an identity thief before, I'm now a fully certified identity thief.
From a Leonard Wibberly novel, The Elephant Boy:
Quote:
Now in a conflict betweern a man and papers, the word of the man will not be given credit, for it may property be held that the man is biased in his own behalf. But papers cannot be biased for they have no feeling one way or another and therefore what a man's papers say will be believed and what he says himself that is contradictory will not be believed.
...
Paper is more powerful than man. Therefore paper is superior to man. Therefore the fate of each man depends on his paper.
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:54 PM
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Some more bureaucracy examples

(1) My sister, Sextina Stevens, kept her maiden name when she married Jones, but SocSec changed her surname to Jones anyway. When she complained, SocSec told her she needed to fill out paperwork to change her name from Jones back to Stevens.

(2) The application for Consular Birth Certificate asks if I have any previous marriage. I said 'Yes' and provided copies of the marriage and divorce certificates as requested. (How I managed to still have them, I don't know.)

For my second child, I couldn't find the divorce certificate. I thought of writing "You probably neglected to return the original to me last time." Instead I just answered 'No' to prior marriage. No problem.

(3) Thailand Immigration is now enforcing its TM-30 rules. Every foreigner must keep the police informed of any change of address longer than 23 hours. If I visit a friend and stay in his apartment for one day, in principle I need the apartment building owner to present his land deed and other documents to immigration. (To avoid this hassle, many apartment owners have stopped renting to foreigners.)

Of course, few would bother with the TM30 when visiting a friend. But check into a hotel, and that hotel will automatically notify Immigration. In principle, when I return home my wife is then required to notify Immigration "He came back!" and, even though Immigration already has seventeen copies of my wife's paperwork she'd be required to present them all to Immigration one more time. (It seems there's some smart-phone app that will obviate the need for her to travel to Immigration office, but those who've applied to get the App wait months before getting the password.)

Good news: Each province's immigration office seems to enforce the rules as it sees fit, and my province has informed me that a new TM30 will be required only when I return from an overseas trip. Bad news? There's a fair chance, e.g. due to personnel change, of "Sorry Mr. Stevens; they didn't understand the rules" at some point down the road.

This and onerous new 'financial proof' rules are causing many ex-pats to reconsider their long-term plans.
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Old 09-14-2019, 07:51 AM
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This is a question from a slightly different angle- why do people arrange their lives in a way that's almost guaranteed to cause them trouble with any sort of bureaucracy? For example, names. I don't care which name people want to use , and my state's marriage certificates conveniently have a space for "new surname" for both parties. But I work for a large state agency and a coworker did something I just don't understand. She got married, changed her name, and sent the certificate to HR.* And then couldn't figure out why her email address , computer login etc, were changed to the new name. But if you send a marriage certificate that says you changed your name to a bureaucracy, of course they're going to change their name in their records. Or people who allow others to book airline tickets for them without specifying the name that is on their ID - for example, Victor Antonio Clark goes by "Tony" at work and has somehow gotten his employer to make his email etc ,"V. Antonio" . So some assistant books airline tickets in the name of "Antonio" because he never noticed/forgot about the "V" - and he has to deal with bureaucracy because he might not be able to board with the mismatched names. And of course the same thing happens to the person who is "Susan Smith" at work and "Susan Jones" on her ID. I've heard about this enough that I almost want to grab the person by the shirt and ask " Didn't you realize this would be a problem? Why didn't you tell the assistant what name to book under as soon as you knew about the trip?'"





* And there was no reason to send the certificate to HR if she wasn't changing her name- she wasn't adding him to her insurance or anything like that.
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Old 09-14-2019, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by pullin View Post
Once formed, any bureaucracy begins evolving toward a single purpose: Increasing the power and wealth of the bureaucracy's members, and decreasing their responsibility, accountability and effort. There are no exceptions.

The longer a bureaucracy has been in operation, the more progress it will have made toward these goals, and the less responsive and useful it will become to the users and purpose for which it was originally formed.
Thatís right! And being state owned with no profit motive state bureaucracies are even more inefficient.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:06 PM
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Sometimes things you did forty years ago when people just accepted your word come back to hit you... I changed my first name to the name people knew me by when I got married and was changing my surname anyway. I didn't even have to present my marriage certificate, just asked the doctor, banks etc to change my name. More recently I took another surname and shortened my first name. That time I made it official with a deed poll. Now the Passport Office was fine with all the changes, probably they have more experience of people with name changes. However it caused no end of trouble with another legal matter. they kept asking for written proof of the first name change, which I didn't actually have, and nothing I offered was good enough. Eventually I had to sign a declaration that I had changed my name but it was just infuriating.
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Old 09-14-2019, 01:27 PM
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Sometimes things you did forty years ago when people just accepted your word come back to hit you... .
I'm not sure if this was in response to my post- but just in case it was... I totally understand why people did things thirty or forty years ago when things were different. What I don't understand is why they do things that will cause them difficulty at the time they do them - my coworker with the marriage certificate did that within the last six months and I've heard about the mismatched plane ticket/ID within the past year. It's not like there was a recent change and two years ago it didn't matter if your plane ticket matched your ID.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:39 PM
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It's bureaucracy gone freaking mad I tell ya.
No, it's RealID and the country going insane with security theater.
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Old 09-14-2019, 03:57 PM
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Once formed, any bureaucracy begins evolving toward a single purpose: Increasing the power and wealth of the bureaucracy's members, and decreasing their responsibility, accountability and effort. There are no exceptions.



The longer a bureaucracy has been in operation, the more progress it will have made toward these goals, and the less responsive and useful it will become to the users and purpose for which it was originally formed.
Ridiculous.

In fact, in many ways "Bureaucracies" (you may read that as "systems administered by public entities, which are vital to the functioning of a civil society") are becoming more responsive all the time.

Remember when you could renew your license plates online back in the 80's? Or back in 2000 when you city's Parks Department had a Facebook page and Twitter account where anybody could register a concern publicly? And P+R had a social media liason?

No, because this things didn't exist.

Remember back in the 90's when you needed a copy of an accident report from your local police department, and you had to wait a week for them to dig up the paper from an archive and make you copies?

Yep. And countless other examples.

Is like to hear your solution to replace bureaucracies.

For the record, my degree is in Public Administration. When I started, it was kind of funny because I was a small government libertarian - leaning conservative.

The two things that changed my outlook on public institutions were my getting an actual education in them, and working in them.

Eta: your post would be accurate if you replaced "Bureaucracy" with "business".

Last edited by Sicks Ate; 09-14-2019 at 03:59 PM.
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Old 09-20-2019, 02:17 AM
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It wasn't the bureaucracy, it was a flippin' bureaucrat who thought she knew the RULES, except she didn't.

After the debacle last week and realizing what a damned chore it was going to be to get the suppoedly necessary docs, I read through the 'Accepted Identity Documents' list and found nothing about having to prove a previous identity. It would only be needed if any ID was in a different name, but all my stuff is in the same name.

Went back armed with this info, and the same woman from last week dug her heels in....until finally a supervisor, hearing me getting a bit argumentative, came over to investigate.

Long story, but I haz a new licence.
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Old 09-20-2019, 06:39 AM
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The purpose of a bureaucracy is to carry out the regulations in a uniform manner.

The regulations are designed to achieve a certain goal (mandated by legislation) in a way to prevent people from gaming the system.

Complaints about bureaucracy usually boil down to "How dare they not give me special treatment!"
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