Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 10-01-2003, 05:20 AM
Urban Ranger Urban Ranger is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The City State of Noosphere
Posts: 3,540
Infidelity: deeds or thoughts?

A woman friend of mine told me that she considers thoughts of infidel deeds, such as thinking about having sex with another woman, is infidelity in itself.

I have always maintained that you can't sentence a person on thoughts alone.

What do you think?
  #2  
Old 10-01-2003, 07:17 AM
robertliguori robertliguori is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The 'Burg
Posts: 2,988
She's stupid. Heaven help her significant other.
  #3  
Old 10-01-2003, 09:45 AM
mrsface mrsface is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Old Europe (UK)
Posts: 367
She's not alone, though a bit extreme.

Psychologists have investigated sexual jealousy and found that most women (85%) are more disturbed by emotional infidelity than simple sexual infidelity (eg Buss et al 1992). Men, on the other hand, are more threatened by the prospect of their woman in bed with someone else.

The evolutionary explanation for this is supposed to be that in order to ensure the survival of her genes, a woman needs to have a reliable, permanent partner to bring up her kids, while a man is more concerned to ensure that his partner is carrying his child and his genes, and not some other bloke's.
  #4  
Old 10-01-2003, 09:53 AM
Jonathan Chance Jonathan Chance is offline
Domo Arigato Mister Moderato
Moderator
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: On the run with Kilroy
Posts: 20,341
A favorite line Lady Chance and I share:

"If women knew what men were thinking they'd never stop slapping us."

I don't know who said it. But it's true.
  #5  
Old 10-01-2003, 09:58 AM
Diogenes the Cynic Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
She's an idiot. All men, without exception, fantasize about other partners. A guy who says he doesn't is like a guy saying he never farts. It's impossible. It's what you do about it that matters. Urban's friend sounds very insecure.
  #6  
Old 10-01-2003, 10:04 AM
Ramanujan Ramanujan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 741
i think you could condemn a person on his thoughts, but they'd have to be the right kind of thoughts.

for the idea of infidelity to occur to someone, he need not do anything. it happens. it's natural. to actually want to act on those thoughts is a thought that i would personally consider pretty much of a deal-breaker. but if the thought occurs and the person chooses not to act on those thoughts based on his loyalty and respect for his mate, what's wrong with that?

i suppose there are people who want people who think of no others but them. that the idea occurs to them is evidence that they are not truly in love. i think those people will be wholly disappointed with life.
  #7  
Old 10-01-2003, 10:04 AM
Mangetout Mangetout is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 56,665
This POV is not uncommon among Christians, based on...
Quote:
[b]Matthew 5:27-28
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery'. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
  #8  
Old 10-01-2003, 10:10 AM
Priam Priam is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,529
Guys will never, ever stop looking and lusting. I honestly think plenty of women are the same way. Expecting anything else is setting yourself up for lies and defensiveness within your relationship. Some things your significant other does can be changed. Some can't. Know which is which and either accept the latter or break up.
  #9  
Old 10-01-2003, 11:59 AM
Urban Ranger Urban Ranger is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The City State of Noosphere
Posts: 3,540
Quote:
Originally posted by Ramanujan
for the idea of infidelity to occur to someone, he need not do anything. it happens. it's natural.
Surely?

We can all agree that it's natural for men (at least) to look at other women and to feel tingles between the legs coming in contact with certain stimuli.

However, actively pursuing the thoughts of sexual intercourse with other women seem to be on another level all together.
  #10  
Old 10-01-2003, 01:50 PM
Diogenes the Cynic Diogenes the Cynic is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: St. Paul, MN
Posts: 58,797
Quote:
However, actively pursuing the thoughts of sexual intercourse with other women seem to be on another level all together.
Why?
  #11  
Old 10-01-2003, 02:12 PM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 55,944
What's the difference between thinking and actively pursuing a thought?

For that matter, even if it was "on another level", how is the level of active thought pursuit closer to the level of physical action?
  #12  
Old 10-01-2003, 03:17 PM
Kalhoun Kalhoun is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Over by dere
Posts: 27,023
Tell me which of the examples below are infidelity:

Scenario One - Man sees hot woman and thinks to himself, "WooHOO, I'd like to get me a piece of THAT!

Scenario Two - Man realizes he married the wrong girl and pines for her endlessly. He never acts on it and never mentions it to his wife, but he feels that he's in love with the old girlfriend and feels this way for years.

Scenario Three - Man fucks stranger he meets in a bar.

Also, which of these indiscretions can a couple recover from?
  #13  
Old 10-01-2003, 04:05 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 26,213
Quote:
Originally posted by Bryan Ekers
What's the difference between thinking and actively pursuing a thought?

For that matter, even if it was "on another level", how is the level of active thought pursuit closer to the level of physical action? [/B]
Idonno. What's the diference between me thinking about murdering someone and actually doing it?

If thinking about infidelity is as bad as the act itself then mind as well go all the way and at least get something out of it.
  #14  
Old 10-01-2003, 04:37 PM
Kalhoun Kalhoun is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Over by dere
Posts: 27,023
But isn't "loving" another person, even if you don't act on it, a betrayal in itself? That's a lot different than thinking about a roll in zee hay.
  #15  
Old 10-01-2003, 05:07 PM
Lilairen Lilairen is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nawth Shuah
Posts: 1,327
I tend to be of the opinion that making relationship agreements about emotions is generally a bad idea; my observation is that most people who do such a thing wind up bitten on the ass by it. (If someone were to ask me for advice on making such a commitment, I would tell them it is ill-advised.)

Infidelity is breaking faith; it's going against whatever's in one's relationship commitments. I don't think it's possible to answer the question of what is betrayal without knowing what the other people's commitments are; further, I think that a lot of damage is done to relationships by people presuming that their partners share their cultural basis for what having a relationship automatically entails, relationship-wise. Sometimes people get lucky and actually did share the same culture; more often, someone does something that's entirely acceptable within their cultural background and someone else feels betrayed by it.

Someone who comes to a relationship with the cultural belief that "relationship" = "emotional exclusivity" may well feel that they are being unfaithful in fantasising about or caring for someone else. Someone who comes to a relationship with the cultural belief that emotions are okay, just "doing something about it" isn't may be shocked that their affection is considered infidelity; someone who thinks that "infidelity" requires "having sex" may get blindsided by someone's claim of betrayal over having lunch with an attractive coworker. In my relationship system, "infidelity" requires "having sex without using a condom or other appropriate barrier protection" or "not telling me about it".

(And I want my husband to come home so we can go out and hang with his local girlfriend and her partner. )
  #16  
Old 10-01-2003, 05:33 PM
Ellis Dee Ellis Dee is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New England
Posts: 13,368
Damn, Lilairen, how you doin?
  #17  
Old 10-01-2003, 06:46 PM
Gadfly Gadfly is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,676
Quote:
Matthew 5:27-28
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery'. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
What the hell am I supposed to do, Matthew? Never lay eyes on a woman I haven't married? I don't know about other guys, but if I look at a gorgeous woman, naughty thoughts follow. This is not a matter of choice. It's not like I fantasize about rolling in the hay at length every time I see a beautiful girl - it's more along the lines of Kalhoun's first scenario.
  #18  
Old 10-01-2003, 06:51 PM
RexDart RexDart is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Dyersburg, TN
Posts: 2,227
Quote:
Originally posted by Mangetout
This POV is not uncommon among Christians, based on...
Quote:
Matthew 5:27-28
"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery'. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
I find that protestant evangelicals are particularly fond of this one, but that's because it basically turns every single human on the planet into an adulterer, and therefore feeds their worldview that every human is a sinner in need of salvation. Despite the lip service Christians pay to the notion that this means lust = adultery, I don't ever notice them acting as if they believe that. If they really did believe that, they would show as much contempt for all men as they do for adulterers. They clearly still recognize, in day-to-day life if not in theology, a difference between the two.
  #19  
Old 10-01-2003, 11:13 PM
Urban Ranger Urban Ranger is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The City State of Noosphere
Posts: 3,540
Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Why?
1. You are walking in a mall with your SO. You catch sight of a woman who makes you tingle between your legs. You forget about it a bit later.

2. You are walking in a mall with your SO. You catch sight of a woman who makes you tingle between your legs. A bit later, you sit down with your SO at a sidewalk cafe. She starts talking with you, but your mind is somewhere else, thinking about the woman you saw. You are imagining taking her clothes off, and the use of your tongue, hands, and other body parts on and inside her.

3. You are walking in a mall with your SO. You catch sight of a woman who makes you tingle between your legs. Later on that evening, you start thinking about the woman you saw in the day. You are imagining taking her clothes off, and the use of your tongue, hands, and other body parts on and inside her.

We can all accept scenario #1 is natural. It's in a man's genes, you can't fault him for it.

Surely scenarioes #2 and #3 are different from #1?
  #20  
Old 10-01-2003, 11:19 PM
Urban Ranger Urban Ranger is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The City State of Noosphere
Posts: 3,540
Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic
Urban's friend sounds very insecure.
Correct, she is very insecure.

Given that how badly she was hurt previously, though, there's no way I can fault her about it.
  #21  
Old 10-01-2003, 11:27 PM
robertliguori robertliguori is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: The 'Burg
Posts: 2,988
Quote:
But isn't "loving" another person, even if you don't act on it, a betrayal in itself? That's a lot different than thinking about a roll in zee hay.
That's an interesting perspective. Is love a voluntary choice? Can you choose to start or stop loving someone? If not, how can love be a betrayal?
  #22  
Old 10-02-2003, 12:12 AM
Bryan Ekers Bryan Ekers is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Montreal, QC
Posts: 55,944
Quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Surely scenarioes #2 and #3 are different from #1?
#1 and #2 are different, but the difference is a miniscule ant-fart compared to the galactic tumult that distinguishes both of them from #3.

You're splitting deck chairs, if I may be allowed to mix and blend metaphors.
  #23  
Old 10-02-2003, 09:15 AM
Priam Priam is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,529
Quote:
Originally posted by Kalhoun
Tell me which of the examples below are infidelity:

Scenario One - Man sees hot woman and thinks to himself, "WooHOO, I'd like to get me a piece of THAT!

Scenario Two - Man realizes he married the wrong girl and pines for her endlessly. He never acts on it and never mentions it to his wife, but he feels that he's in love with the old girlfriend and feels this way for years.

Scenario Three - Man fucks stranger he meets in a bar.

Also, which of these indiscretions can a couple recover from?
Two or three could be depending on agreements laid down either verbally or by assumption (verbal is much better). Number one also could be, but I contend its such an automatic response that anyone who considers it such really needs to re-evaluate their criteria if they want to have a relationship with most men and quite a few women.

And all the indiscretions can be recovered from if the relationship is good enough. #3 might be stretching the point, but I could see some circumstances where it would be a one-shot deal that people could reconcile about.
  #24  
Old 10-02-2003, 10:01 AM
Urban Ranger Urban Ranger is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: The City State of Noosphere
Posts: 3,540
Quote:
Originally posted by Kalhoun
Scenario One - Man sees hot woman and thinks to himself, "WooHOO, I'd like to get me a piece of THAT!

Scenario Two - Man realizes he married the wrong girl and pines for her endlessly. He never acts on it and never mentions it to his wife, but he feels that he's in love with the old girlfriend and feels this way for years.

Scenario Three - Man fucks stranger he meets in a bar.
#1 - yes
#3 - possibly
#2 - very hard, if not impossible
  #25  
Old 10-02-2003, 11:12 AM
grimpixie grimpixie is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
Posts: 2,911
Quote:
Originally posted by Kalhoun
Scenario One - Man sees hot woman and thinks to himself, "WooHOO, I'd like to get me a piece of THAT!
Someone I knew once said that looking once is as a result of being male, taking a second look is as a result of appreciation, but it's when you have a third (and further) look (and the consequent thoughts) that you're heading into lust/infidelity territory. This makes sense to me - I can't really help noticing and appreciating (and even desiring) the voluptuous blonde on the bus, but I can do something about the thought that if I just lean forward a fraction and she turns a little to the left, I'll get a good view of her cleavage...

Grim
  #26  
Old 10-06-2003, 05:44 PM
j.c. j.c. is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: nearby
Posts: 1,480
Speaking as a woman, I'm just gonna pipe up and say that I have lustful thoughts all the dang time, and being in a reliationship doesn't slow 'em down.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:50 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright 2017 Sun-Times Media, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017