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  #51  
Old 02-15-2017, 06:41 AM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is offline
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Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
This rant by a black female journalist exemplifies the current Grammies race card. Ludicrously she claims that black women will never be seen as equal to whites, and this after just having mentioned Oprah Winfrey, arguably the most powerful woman in all media.
She also seems to be in the habit of capitalizing "Black" but not "white".
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  #52  
Old 02-15-2017, 06:50 AM
WOOKINPANUB WOOKINPANUB is online now
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I can't deny Beyonce's talent or beauty but it always feels to me as though she believes her own press. It's irrational but I can't stand any of the Knowles women (that would be Beyonce, crazy sister Solange and mega bitch mother Tina). They seem a bunch of unpleasant divas.
  #53  
Old 02-15-2017, 07:16 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
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Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
Not a fan?
I don't mind her other than the plagiarism, although Kelly Rowland is my Destiny alum of choice...
Quote:
To be fair in music the line between the two is pretty fine.
I'm talking mostly about her videos, not her music.

Last edited by MrDibble; 02-15-2017 at 07:19 AM.
  #54  
Old 02-15-2017, 07:23 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
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More of the same...
  #55  
Old 02-15-2017, 11:14 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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And her videos are more of a central product for her than most recording artists these days.

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Originally Posted by BigT View Post
I'm fine with people liking her that much, too. But turning this into some public angry controversy only makes it harder to get people to pay attention or not be dismissive when we're angry about actual important issues.

Even if it's just the media playing it up, I wish they wouldn't.
Great point. To the extent that I see coverage of the Kardashians at all, it seems to carry an inherent imprimatur of insubstantiality. Whereas Beyonce is often talked about as though she is Very Important.
  #56  
Old 02-15-2017, 11:59 AM
astorian astorian is offline
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Now, I am not a big fan of either Adele or Beyonce. Both talented ladies, but neither of them particularly appeals to me. So, I offer no opinion as to which of them "deserved" the Grammy for Best Album.

What I'm baffled by is the widespread assertion that the Grammies are too white. Over the past 40+ years, I can think of LOADS of albums by minority artists that have won the Best Album Grammy. Stevie Wonder (a bunch, all by himself), Michael Jackson, OutKast, Lauryn Hill, Natalie Cole, Quincy Jones, Carlos Santana, Whitney Houston, Ray Charles...

Is there really a valid argument to be made that black artists are underrepresented among the winners?

Last edited by astorian; 02-15-2017 at 11:59 AM.
  #57  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:36 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Astorian, I take it you only read the OP and maybe some of the last few posts, but skipped some in the middle?

I started from the same premise you did and went to Wikipedia to bolster that argument. To recap: what I found was that what you are saying was true from the early Eighties until 2008. In that quarter-century span, black artists won 17 of the 50 Grammys awarded to Best Record and Best Album. But then the moment President Obama took office, this mysteriously stopped and we have had 18 white winners in a row over the past nine Grammy ceremonies. For a young BLM activist, that is going to seem like forever.

ETA: I see you stated "minority artists" which is slightly different from "black artists". I only counted African Americans, but it's actually higher than 17 of 50 if you include people like Carlos Santana or Norah Jones. But the 18-0 record over the past 9 years is all white no matter how you slice it. If the pattern of the previous 25 years had held, it would be more like 11 whites, six blacks, and one other.

Last edited by SlackerInc; 02-15-2017 at 12:40 PM.
  #58  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:42 PM
astorian astorian is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
Astorian, I take it you only read the OP and maybe some of the last few posts, but skipped some in the middle?

I started from the same premise you did and went to Wikipedia to bolster that argument. To recap: what I found was that what you are saying was true from the early Eighties until 2008. In that quarter-century span, black artists won 17 of the 50 Grammys awarded to Best Record and Best Album. But then the moment President Obama took office, this mysteriously stopped and we have had 18 white winners in a row over the past nine Grammy ceremonies. For a young BLM activist, that is going to seem like forever.

ETA: I see you stated "minority artists" which is slightly different from "black artists". I only counted African Americans, but it's actually higher than 17 of 50 if you include people like Carlos Santana or Norah Jones. But the 18-0 record over the past 9 years is all white no matter how you slice it. If the pattern of the previous 25 years had held, it would be more like 11 whites, six blacks, and one other.
So, what percentage of these awards SHOULD go to minority artists? If there's a quota, please let us know what the quota is.
  #59  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:48 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Well, the extrapolation shows that more awards should have gone to minority artists that would be predicted. So the question is why. If we look at Metacritic scores, we find that there have been a few occasions where the winner of Best Album (that's the only one I looked at) was lower than a minority runner up. This year may have had one of the the biggest disparities - Adele's "25" had a Metacritic score of 75/100 compared to Beyonce's "Lemonade" which had a Metacritic score of 92/100.
  #60  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:50 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by astorian View Post
So, what percentage of these awards SHOULD go to minority artists? If there's a quota, please let us know what the quota is.
You are blatantly shifting your goal posts. I started with my arms crossed in the same skeptical stance, but it appears that unlike you, I was willing to shift my perception based on new data. You are instead just retrenching.

You asked "Is there really a valid argument to be made that black artists are underrepresented among the winners?" And I think most people would say it's at least a valid argument to point to 18 white winners in a row in the top two categories. But now you seem to be making an unfalsifiable argument that there is no minimum number one should expect over that span of time.

Since black recording artists have for many decades been punching above their weight in terms of sales and popular culture, then one would expect them to get at least the percentage of the top Grammys that they represent in the population of the US. That would mean getting 2 or 3 of those 18 awards rather than zero.
  #61  
Old 02-15-2017, 12:54 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Maybe I should turn it around. How many white winners in a row would it take before you would acknowledge an appearance of unfairness? 25? 30? 40? 50? 100?
  #62  
Old 02-15-2017, 01:52 PM
MikeF MikeF is offline
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Quote: Well, she "could care less what you think."

One of my favorite nitpicks - its "couldn't care less" unless, of course, she really could.

I like what Santana said (paraphrasing) - Adele is a musician, Beyonce is a model who can sing a little.

Last edited by MikeF; 02-15-2017 at 01:53 PM.
  #63  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:09 PM
That Don Guy That Don Guy is offline
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Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
The outrage was so weird I had to look it up and found that Beyonce has won twenty-two Grammy Awards. Twenty-two. (That does include awards won as a member of Destiny's Child, but most are as a solo artist.) Gosh, it's so upsetting that the woman who won 22 damn awards didn't make it 24.
It's not that - it's that, of the 22, none are in the "big three" performing categories (Album, Record, New Artist). She has one of the "big four" (Song), but for co-writing "Single Ladies."

Adele and Taylor Swift each have two Album of the Year Grammys; Adele also has two Record of the Year Grammys.

Hmmm...here's a thought; is it possible that they gave Album of the Year to Adele just so Taylor Swift wouldn't be the only female singer to win the award twice for solo albums?
  #64  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:36 PM
ZipperJJ ZipperJJ is online now
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It's not "fine" when we care more about celebrity "royalty" (and typing that made me want to puke) than we do about who's running the country.
...erm, do we? I don't recall seeing any protesters out on the streets after the Grammys but I have seen a "few" since Trump was inaugurated.

There are people in this country who will care more about celebrity than they do government no matter who is running the country and who are the most popular celebs. And there are many who will go out of their way to ignore celebrity and will de-facto care more about who's running the country.

And there are people who can enjoy CELEBRITY and care deeply about GOVERNMENT at the SAME TIME. I'm serious!

If you have some sort of proof that a decent sample size of people are too distracted by celebrity royalty to care about government, then please present it and I will say "Oh my, that is a shame and the country is going to heck! HECK!!"

But otherwise I will just nod and say "yes, some people will always ignore government. Whatcha gonna do?"

And BTW I have seen zero outrage about Beyonce, at least in my little Liberal echo chamber of a Facebook account. People are rallying against Trump daily, and still talking about DAPL and still talking about cabinet confirmations and stuff. The only things I heard about the Grammys was some nutter I recently friended who was DISGUSTED by A Tribe Called Quest's "shameful" performance "against Trump."

So I sit un-convinced that "we" care more about "celebrity royalty" than we do about who's running the country. Maybe that was a problem in 1964, I dunno. Pretty sure "we" have the tools to watch both kingdoms these days.
  #65  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:58 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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And BTW I have seen zero outrage about Beyonce, at least in my little Liberal echo chamber of a Facebook account.
I agreed with most of your post, but this part surprised me. I thought Slate was required reading in the liberal bubble.
  #66  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:05 PM
ZipperJJ ZipperJJ is online now
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I agreed with most of your post, but this part surprised me. I thought Slate was required reading in the liberal bubble.
Yeah, I rarely see links shared from Slate. Sometimes, but not nearly as much as WaPo, NYT or HuffPo. Every so often I hear about Slate as being the super-lefty-liberal-snowflake blog for the coffee house crowd, and I wonder why I don't see it more. I guess my friends are too old? (late 30s)

My friends are seriously het up about the government. Seriously.
  #67  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:23 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Huh. I'm a bit older than you, though my wife's in her early thirties so I see stuff from people all through their thirties and forties, plus some from my retired (very liberal) mom and her friends. All of whom are fired up against the government; but only in that last group do I see relatively little Slate. Go figure.
  #68  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:24 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Wait... people still read Slate? And like 90% of my Facebook friends are pretty far left.

(that being said, I did see some folks who rolled their eyes at the Grammys, not upset, just not surprised, but the vast majority of those folks were African-American)

Last edited by ISiddiqui; 02-15-2017 at 03:25 PM.
  #69  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:37 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by ISiddiqui View Post
Wait... people still read Slate?
Yes, they do. Slate gets a little more traffic than my favorite site, The Atlantic, but not as much as Politico:

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/slate.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/theatlantic.com

http://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/politico.com
  #70  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:43 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Obviously I was using hyperbole, but it doesn't seem by much. Slate's readership has really crated (223rd site in the US). Strange that viewership went down during the election (after a bump during... the conventions?).
  #71  
Old 02-15-2017, 05:26 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Then you must think The Atlantic is doing terribly, which is not my impression at all.
  #72  
Old 02-15-2017, 05:31 PM
Celyn Celyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aldiboronti View Post
...
This rant by a black female journalist exemplifies the current Grammies race card. Ludicrously she claims that black women will never be seen as equal to whites, and this after just having mentioned Oprah Winfrey, arguably the most powerful woman in all media. None so blind.
Oh heck. That linked article includes this notion:
Quote:
Beyoncé, arguably the most recognizable face on the planet ...
.

Now, I'm not sure if I would recognise her or not, and that's fine, because I'm too old to be her target audience, but SURELY she's not widely thought to be the most recognisable face on the planet?

Actually, it needn't matter to her what prizes she gets or doesn't, given that she seems to inspire such great devotion in her fans.

Last edited by Celyn; 02-15-2017 at 05:33 PM.
  #73  
Old 02-15-2017, 07:19 PM
Aeschines Aeschines is offline
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Originally Posted by Celyn View Post
Actually, it needn't matter to her what prizes she gets or doesn't, given that she seems to inspire such great devotion in her fans.
Yeah, similar to Taylor Swift in that regard. Not sure what they get out of these "megastars."
  #74  
Old 02-15-2017, 10:18 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Actually, it needn't matter to her what prizes she gets or doesn't, given that she seems to inspire such great devotion in her fans.
That's really a key point. She already has all the money, fame, and adulation anyone could possibly dream of.
  #75  
Old 02-16-2017, 09:10 AM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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Then you must think The Atlantic is doing terribly, which is not my impression at all.
Actually yes. Ever since Sullivan, Douthat, and Coates left, I haven't even noticed it at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Celyn View Post
SURELY she's not widely thought to be the most recognisable face on the planet?
Aside from Queen Elizabeth II, Obama, and Trump, I'm not sure there is anyone alive more recognizable (Messi, maybe?). Now, granted, you may say that QE2, Obama, and Trump are far more recognizable, but Beyonce may be in the argument if she's in the Top 5.

I think there is an underestimation of how popular and acclaimed Beyonce actually is beyond her true believer fans. She was a #6 for Time's Person of the Year in 2016, after all (behind only - Trump, Hillary Clinton, The Hackers, Recep Erdogan, and the CRISPR pioneers, the later being scientists using tools to alter human DNA to attempt to cure diseases)
  #76  
Old 02-16-2017, 10:28 AM
CarnalK CarnalK is offline
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I would think a lot of actors would have more famous faces. Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, de Niro, Jackie Chan.

Probably she's top five amongst living musical artists

Last edited by CarnalK; 02-16-2017 at 10:31 AM.
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