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  #151  
Old 02-13-2017, 04:24 PM
nightshadea nightshadea is offline
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what about mechs... be they gundams robotech megazords exo suits ect battletech/MechWarrior.......any of the at series in starwars ......

Last edited by nightshadea; 02-13-2017 at 04:25 PM.
  #152  
Old 02-13-2017, 05:23 PM
Finagle Finagle is offline
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Originally Posted by nightshadea View Post
what about mechs... be they gundams robotech megazords exo suits ect battletech/MechWarrior.......any of the at series in starwars ......
Yeah, the humanoid (or leg-based) giant mech has many well-documented flaws, but for my money, one of the least justified is the Jaegers from Pacific Rim. The fundamental theory of the Jaegers was that if you were faced with a humongous creature that was immune to normal kinetic energy weapons, explosives, and missiles, as well as the crippling effects of the cube/squared law, you could still defeat it by punching it really, really, really hard. The same theory seems to hold for Transformers as well.

And I dunno, but I never heard a sonic boom when a Jaeger was punching a Kaiju, which means that my money is still on the much cheaper supersonic chunk of depleted uranium. You may argue that at least one Jaeger had a super cool sword, to which I answer, why not make missiles out of whatever the sword was packing?
  #153  
Old 02-13-2017, 07:22 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Pacific Rim makes a lot more sense once you realize that it's fundamentally a Saturday-morning cartoon, except with a bigger budget. Jaegers don't make sense, but they make cartoon sense.
  #154  
Old 02-13-2017, 07:32 PM
scr4 scr4 is offline
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And I dunno, but I never heard a sonic boom when a Jaeger was punching a Kaiju, which means that my money is still on the much cheaper supersonic chunk of depleted uranium.
Maybe the Kaiju have the same kind of shield seen in Dune, which only stops fast-moving objects.

I think the humanoid mechs in space make even less sense. What use are limbs if you're just going to fly around space shooting at each other?
  #155  
Old 02-13-2017, 09:15 PM
Aquadementia Aquadementia is offline
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Originally Posted by Finagle View Post
Yeah, the humanoid (or leg-based) giant mech has many well-documented flaws, but for my money, one of the least justified is the Jaegers from Pacific Rim. The fundamental theory of the Jaegers was that if you were faced with a humongous creature that was immune to normal kinetic energy weapons, explosives, and missiles, as well as the crippling effects of the cube/squared law, you could still defeat it by punching it really, really, really hard. The same theory seems to hold for Transformers as well.

And I dunno, but I never heard a sonic boom when a Jaeger was punching a Kaiju, which means that my money is still on the much cheaper supersonic chunk of depleted uranium. You may argue that at least one Jaeger had a super cool sword, to which I answer, why not make missiles out of whatever the sword was packing?
Actually, Pacific Rim is the MOST justified for having giant mechs.
You must have missed the first few minutes of the movie. The first time they saw giant monsters on the shore ordinary tanks and planes took care of it. The problem is their blood is a deadly environmental disaster. So, blowing them to smithereens is not a good option.
Though you might complain that the battles became more bloody.

And I don't know what lies Michael Bay as been feeding you but Transformers are robots in disguise. They are a race of sentient robots from another planet. Turning into cars and planes is their way of being incognito. Complaining that they turn into walking robots is a backwards way of looking at it.
  #156  
Old 02-13-2017, 09:44 PM
asterion asterion is online now
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Originally Posted by scr4 View Post
Maybe the Kaiju have the same kind of shield seen in Dune, which only stops fast-moving objects.

I think the humanoid mechs in space make even less sense. What use are limbs if you're just going to fly around space shooting at each other?
Why do you want to do away with Gunbuster? Sure, the mecha doesn't make any sense, but at least they got the time dilation right.

Along with other bad Japanese-origin weapons, pretty much any JPRG summoning spell. The animations from about FF7 on don't even make sense in most cases or in most environments, and something like Bahamut ZERO just seems like a bad idea.
  #157  
Old 02-13-2017, 10:07 PM
Finagle Finagle is offline
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Originally Posted by Aquadementia View Post
Actually, Pacific Rim is the MOST justified for having giant mechs.
You must have missed the first few minutes of the movie. The first time they saw giant monsters on the shore ordinary tanks and planes took care of it. The problem is their blood is a deadly environmental disaster. So, blowing them to smithereens is not a good option.
Though you might complain that the battles became more bloody.
Well, that just means that the Kaiju also have bad design flaws. The idea is that they're trying to clear the way for the Precessors(?). So either the Precessors can tolerate Kaiju toxins or they can't. If they can't, then sending them to do battle on a planet they want seems like a really bad idea. And, if they can, why not just release the toxins without going through all the trouble of breeding giant mutant crawdaddies from hell?
  #158  
Old 02-14-2017, 12:51 AM
Asuka Asuka is offline
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The only way the Jaegers would make any sense is if they did wrestling or judo moves against the kaiju, thus using the kaiju's own bodies and momentum against them.

Plus having something that weighs 2,500 tons do an elbow drop to a monsters face has to do some damage.
  #159  
Old 02-14-2017, 11:56 AM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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Originally Posted by TYphoonSignal8 View Post
Dune's shields. Stop fast projectiles, don't stop slow melee weapons.
How is that a design flaw? In-universe, that's simply how the shield technology works, it's a fundamental property of the physics creating them, not a limitation imposed by the designers. This is like complaining that older kevlar has a 'design flaw' because it works well against bullets but someone can jam a knife through easily - you might argue that a suit relying only on Kevlar has a design flaw, but Kevlar itself just is what it is.

Out of universe, when Herbert designed the shield concept he wanted to stop large-scale firearm battles but retain personal combat. From a world-building perspective it exactly fills it's goal, so can't be called badly designed on that count either.
  #160  
Old 02-14-2017, 12:05 PM
gnoitall gnoitall is offline
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
Out of universe, when Herbert designed the shield concept he wanted to stop large-scale firearm battles but retain personal combat. From a world-building perspective it exactly fills it's goal, so can't be called badly designed on that count either.
The "tell" that it's a conceit for the story's sake is how the shield is not only resistant to ballistic damage, but disastrous against energy weapons (lasgun meets shield; everything gets nuked).

It was a thinly-veiled justification for "I want the cultural default for combat to be melee." A pseudo-medieval conceit, to go along with an explicitly feudal social order.
  #161  
Old 02-14-2017, 04:36 PM
Pantastic Pantastic is offline
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Originally Posted by gnoitall View Post
The "tell" that it's a conceit for the story's sake is how the shield is not only resistant to ballistic damage, but disastrous against energy weapons (lasgun meets shield; everything gets nuked).

It was a thinly-veiled justification for "I want the cultural default for combat to be melee." A pseudo-medieval conceit, to go along with an explicitly feudal social order.
What do you mean by 'conceit'? I'm not familiar with the meaning you're trying to get at here. Similarly, what do you mean by 'thinly veiled'? It's pretty normal for SF writers to make imaginary technologies have the properties that allow for the story they want to tell. I'm not aware that Herbert ever claimed to be doing otherwise, so rather than in any way veiled it's just openly done, and 'conceit' usually means some kind of fancy metaphor, which it isn't.

And I don't see how either of those mean that it was 'badly designed'.
  #162  
Old 02-14-2017, 04:39 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Yeah, the real problem with Dune shields is that a suicide bomber, or even just a simple mechanism, can easily nuke the place. And yes, I know, Butlerian jihad, but you could make a machine much simpler than the ones actually seen in-universe that could do it. Just attach a spring-loaded alarm clock to the trigger of a lasgun, and put it on a motorized cart aimed at your target. Or aim the gun with the alarm clock, and set the alarm for a long enough time to get out of there.
  #163  
Old 02-14-2017, 08:17 PM
TYphoonSignal8 TYphoonSignal8 is offline
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Originally Posted by Pantastic View Post
How is that a design flaw? In-universe, that's simply how the shield technology works, it's a fundamental property of the physics creating them, not a limitation imposed by the designers. This is like complaining that older kevlar has a 'design flaw' because it works well against bullets but someone can jam a knife through easily - you might argue that a suit relying only on Kevlar has a design flaw, but Kevlar itself just is what it is.

Out of universe, when Herbert designed the shield concept he wanted to stop large-scale firearm battles but retain personal combat. From a world-building perspective it exactly fills it's goal, so can't be called badly designed on that count either.
Its clear that Herbert was trying to create a scenario where the combatants could use swords. In that regard he got the swashbuckling element he (and the books' many fans) wanted.

I hadn't considered your Kevlar analogy before, and I don't know enough about Kevlar to meaningfully reply. It just seems odd that an energy field mechanism can stop rifle fire but can't stop a slow-moving sword (there are plenty of references to Paul Atriedes slowing down his strike in order to get through a shield).
  #164  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:26 AM
si_blakely si_blakely is offline
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It just seems odd that an energy field mechanism can stop rifle fire but can't stop a slow-moving sword (there are plenty of references to Paul Atriedes slowing down his strike in order to get through a shield).
As I recall (I haven't read Dune in over 30 years) the personal shields could have been set to stop even slow moving objects, but the user would have run out of breathable air within the shield very quickly.
  #165  
Old 02-15-2017, 07:47 AM
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The do-it-all gun in The Fifth Element that has a self-destruct button on the bottom of it. (Though to Zorg, I'm sure that's a feature, not a bug.) It just begs to be accidentally pushed. The gun is clearly not to be used by anyone particularly clumsy.
  #166  
Old 02-16-2017, 11:41 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Its clear that Herbert was trying to create a scenario where the combatants could use swords. In that regard he got the swashbuckling element he (and the books' many fans) wanted.
This. It seems to me that Dune technology is suitably advanced that they could have designed some sort of ranged weapon that can penetrate the shields. In fact, I recall in the film Duncan Idaho using such a weapon to kill a Sardaukar.
  #167  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:23 AM
Quercus Quercus is offline
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Yeah, the real problem with Dune shields is that a suicide bomber, or even just a simple mechanism, can easily nuke the place. And yes, I know, Butlerian jihad, but you could make a machine much simpler than the ones actually seen in-universe that could do it. Just attach a spring-loaded alarm clock to the trigger of a lasgun, and put it on a motorized cart aimed at your target. Or aim the gun with the alarm clock, and set the alarm for a long enough time to get out of there.
And the other problem with Dune is that the Fremen -- the violence-embracing, but practical and not tech-averse tribes who live in areas where shields are impractical-- don't use rifles (and anti-personnel mines, artillery, and hand grenades for that matter).
  #168  
Old 02-17-2017, 09:46 AM
Blue Blistering Barnacle Blue Blistering Barnacle is offline
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And the other problem with Dune is that the Fremen -- the violence-embracing, but practical and not tech-averse tribes who live in areas where shields are impractical-- don't use rifles (and anti-personnel mines, artillery, and hand grenades for that matter).


I thought there was a mention of guns, possibly in the context of children.

Anyway, they seemed more intent on fighting shielded invaders than each other, at least at the point in history we find them.
  #169  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:42 PM
squidfood squidfood is offline
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Maybe they had to come out of hyperspace on the other side of Yavin. Flying through hyperspace ain't like dusting crops, you know.
It occurs to me that the rebels are smart. Hyperspace is more difficult to navigate around large gravity wells. Pick a small moon next to a large gas giant, to greatly limit the entry points for capital ships (or death stars) dropping in on you.

We see more evidence for hyperspace risk on the assault on Hoth. The admiral didn't come out of hyperspace "too early" just because he was dumb - he probably followed standard Imperial protocols for safe distance given the stated mission. And after all, the assault succeeded completely as a military mission. That he should take greater outside-the-books risks with the whole fleet because Darth Vadar's sole purpose was to stop one person from slipping away in a small ship - hardly his fault he messed up that part.
  #170  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:47 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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That's also consistent with Han hyperspacing through Starkiller Base's shields, in The Force Awakens, which establishes first that it's possible, and second that it's so incredibly risky that only someone like Han would try it, and that only if he were desperate.
  #171  
Old 02-17-2017, 01:56 PM
squidfood squidfood is offline
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And even Han would only try it in a small ship with legend-level souped-up hand-tuned engines.
  #172  
Old 02-17-2017, 02:31 PM
CaptMurdock CaptMurdock is offline
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Originally Posted by squidfood View Post
It occurs to me that the rebels are smart. Hyperspace is more difficult to navigate around large gravity wells. Pick a small moon next to a large gas giant, to greatly limit the entry points for capital ships (or death stars) dropping in on you.

We see more evidence for hyperspace risk on the assault on Hoth. The admiral didn't come out of hyperspace "too early" just because he was dumb - he probably followed standard Imperial protocols for safe distance given the stated mission. And after all, the assault succeeded completely as a military mission. That he should take greater outside-the-books risks with the whole fleet because Darth Vadar's sole purpose was to stop one person from slipping away in a small ship - hardly his fault he messed up that part.
Actually, IIRC, Ozzel had the fleet come out of hyperspace close to the system (as General Veers tried to justify it, he thought he would surprise the rebels). Problem was, he couldn't really get close enough to Hoth to deny the rebels any time to prepare a counter-assault/evacuation (as we saw, most of the important assets -- not to mention the stars of the movje -- were able to be moved off the planet). If Ozzel had come of HP further away, the rebels might not have noticed them before the fleet could be properly deployed to prevent the rebels from escaping.

OTOH, I do think you're correct on the Death Star/Yavin questions.
  #173  
Old 02-17-2017, 02:45 PM
squidfood squidfood is offline
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If Ozzel had come of HP further away, the rebels might not have noticed them before the fleet could be properly deployed to prevent the rebels from escaping.
Ah that's right! And just went and looked at the clip to confirm - I got it wrong there.

This put me in mind of something else in terms of design flaws. If we can talk about defensive systems instead of weapons, in Hoth: (1) why was the Imperial ship knocked offline so easily by the ion cannon, and (2) if ion cannons have that effect on capital ships, why aren't ion cannons used more? Seems like a huge defensive mistake/hole somehow.
  #174  
Old 02-17-2017, 03:26 PM
Lumpy Lumpy is offline
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The Ultimate Nullifier. Destroys not only its target but its wielder, with the potential to destroy the universe. So what was Galactus going to use it for?
I believe it's canon that using it destroys Galactus- only he is then instantly recreated, being the incarnation of the balance between Eternity and Death. OTOH, if anyone else uses it against Galactus, he's screwed.
  #175  
Old 02-17-2017, 03:45 PM
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IIRC, the 'Soft Weapon' required some funny jiggery-pokery to get to the really destructive matter conversion mode. The slide just did a number of fairly mundane but useful things, causing the protagonist to speculate that it was a spy's weapon, but not especially good for a foot soldier. Hence, he tried the jiggery-pokery.

Now when you ASK the spy weapon how to get to the cool setting, that's when the fun starts.
As I recall from the ST:TAS adaptation, the slide gave you the mundane settings (perhaps the equivalent of a ceremonial sword?) while the key to the secret settings was to rotate the sphere at the end of the handle: one axis gave you the conversion beam, another gave you the AI computer, and the third the self-destruct.
  #176  
Old 02-17-2017, 04:54 PM
Blue Blistering Barnacle Blue Blistering Barnacle is offline
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As I recall from the ST:TAS adaptation, the slide gave you the mundane settings (perhaps the equivalent of a ceremonial sword?) while the key to the secret settings was to rotate the sphere at the end of the handle: one axis gave you the conversion beam, another gave you the AI computer, and the third the self-destruct.


From the story I read, rotating gave you the matter conversion beam weapon.

The AI computer just sort of "showed up" after the weapon had listened to enough human/kzinti jabber to communicate. It offered to show the kzinti the secret, but of course by that time the AI knew they were not tnuctipun or tnuctip allies/descendants. So it showed them the self destruct, which they obligingly activated.

I suppose it could have just decided to self destruct by itself, once it knew it had fallen into enemy hands...?
  #177  
Old 02-17-2017, 05:03 PM
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And the other problem with Dune is that the Fremen -- the violence-embracing, but practical and not tech-averse tribes who live in areas where shields are impractical-- don't use rifles (and anti-personnel mines, artillery, and hand grenades for that matter).
I thought making large concussions was a bad idea if any Sandworms are around.
  #178  
Old 02-17-2017, 05:29 PM
Blue Blistering Barnacle Blue Blistering Barnacle is offline
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I thought making large concussions was a bad idea if any Sandworms are around.


That would make mines 'extra crunchy', that is as long as you are not nearby.
  #179  
Old 02-17-2017, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Chronos View Post
and second that it's so incredibly risky that only someone like Han would try it, and that only if he were desperate.
Yep if his timing was off by a fraction of a parsec... Kaboom.


  #180  
Old 02-17-2017, 06:14 PM
smiling bandit smiling bandit is offline
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This put me in mind of something else in terms of design flaws. If we can talk about defensive systems instead of weapons, in Hoth: (1) why was the Imperial ship knocked offline so easily by the ion cannon, and (2) if ion cannons have that effect on capital ships, why aren't ion cannons used more? Seems like a huge defensive mistake/hole somehow.
The cannon is massive, and we actually don't know they aren't used. Given that the Empire felt the need to build a planet-busting superweapon, they probably didn't think the fleet alone was able to take on hardened planetary defenses and win. Of course, on reason for that would likely be that, as stationary defenses, they can't guard anyplace else on the planet and can only fire into medium orbit at best. (Star Wars, being made by nerds for nerds, actually lists all the information on Wookiepedia.) Sure enough, the ion cannon the rebels had wouldn't have been able to hit anything - except that Ozzel brought the fleet in too close.
  #181  
Old 02-18-2017, 02:08 PM
Haldurson Haldurson is offline
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Imperial walkers. Of ffs, stop flying in front of them. Ok yes theyre shielded. Still.
Imperial Walkers are also extremely top-heavy, which is why you can knock them over/trip them so easily What you actually want is a something shaped like an upside-down walker, with most of the weight and weaponry (and the manned part) at the bottom, and a tower with all of the guidance systems at the top, to see over the battlefield. The only reason why it looks the way it looks is to be reminiscent of "War of the Worlds". Terribly unstable design, though. Far too much energy is required just to keep it from toppling over.

The equivalent of the light saber, Niven came up with the idea for a variable sword -- main problem with it (as would be a problem with a light saber) is that you can far too easily chop off one of your own limbs -- the advantage of a physical sword is that if you drop it by accident, odds are that you may get a cut, but a light saber or variable sword would slice through you like butter without having to put any force behind it.
  #182  
Old 02-18-2017, 02:33 PM
running coach running coach is offline
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The equivalent of the light saber, Niven came up with the idea for a variable sword -- main problem with it (as would be a problem with a light saber) is that you can far too easily chop off one of your own limbs -- the advantage of a physical sword is that if you drop it by accident, odds are that you may get a cut, but a light saber or variable sword would slice through you like butter without having to put any force behind it.
I see what you did there.
  #183  
Old 02-18-2017, 02:46 PM
msmith537 msmith537 is offline
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Ah that's right! And just went and looked at the clip to confirm - I got it wrong there.

This put me in mind of something else in terms of design flaws. If we can talk about defensive systems instead of weapons, in Hoth: (1) why was the Imperial ship knocked offline so easily by the ion cannon, and (2) if ion cannons have that effect on capital ships, why aren't ion cannons used more? Seems like a huge defensive mistake/hole somehow.
If my nerd-fu serves me correctly, ion cannons are basically a giant EMP gun for disabling ships without damaging them and they are frequently used. To take down the star destroyer, you would presumably need a massive one like the battery on Hoth.

I think you are missing the biggest design flaw of all. Giant orbital defense guns like the one on Hoth are highly effective at turning a 1 mile long warship into a 1 mile long unguided projectile in low orbit, ready to fall out of the sky.
  #184  
Old 02-18-2017, 03:18 PM
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I think you are missing the biggest design flaw of all. Giant orbital defense guns like the one on Hoth are highly effective at turning a 1 mile long warship into a 1 mile long unguided projectile in low orbit, ready to fall out of the sky.
But think of off the free heat the planet gets when they come down. Maybe the rebels and the Empire are being manipulated by a powerful, behind-the-scenes cabal of terra-forming companies?

5 pages in and no one mentions replicants? Sure, they'll die eventually but as Batty and friends show, they can do some real damage in the meantime if they get loose. No remote kill switch. No tracking system. Shoot, they can somehow magically evade being detected without a Voight-Kampff machine when they look exactly like their id pictures!

Nobody thought of tattooing "REPLICANT" in big letters on their forehead? An RFID chip in their skulls?
  #185  
Old 02-18-2017, 03:36 PM
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Tie Fighters: The "wings" are either heat sinks or solar panels depending on who you believe. Either way they're a terrible design since they cut off a fair chunk of visibility for the pilot and don't seem to serve any purpose as armour.
They have a worse design flaw. No hyperdrive. Your cap ship leaves without you, or gets destroyed/captured, you're shit outta luck. Enjoy floating in space the rest of your life (aka until your air runs out). Doesn't apply to certain advanced models, like the one Darth Vader flew in Star Wars (or he never would have been in either of the sequels), but the base model is pretty much a "hey, you're just cannon fodder, heh heh, empire"

They also don't have shields... That's just great in your primary fighter...

X-wings have both hyperdrives (obviously, they're how Luke travels to/from Dagobah) and shields. No wonder the Rebels were able to find recruits, no matter the numbers advantage of the Empire.
  #186  
Old 02-18-2017, 05:11 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Quoth msmith537:

I think you are missing the biggest design flaw of all. Giant orbital defense guns like the one on Hoth are highly effective at turning a 1 mile long warship into a 1 mile long unguided projectile in low orbit, ready to fall out of the sky.
It's really, really hard to fall out of the sky, especially for something unguided.

But that reminds me of another one. In one of the Starcraft II missions, you have to defend the Terran capital from... its own orbital defense platform. Which apparently needs all five of its "atmospheric stabilizers" functioning to prevent it from crashing and destroying the city below it in a matter of minutes. And of course whatever defenses were mounted on the thing in the first place weren't enough to prevent terrorists from boarding it, entrenching themselves, and disabling all of those stabilizers.
  #187  
Old 02-19-2017, 08:55 PM
Irishman Irishman is offline
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The equivalent of the light saber, Niven came up with the idea for a variable sword -- main problem with it (as would be a problem with a light saber) is that you can far too easily chop off one of your own limbs --
Lightsabers have an in-universe explanation for why more people don't quisinart themselves - they are only used by Force sensitives. They're able to control the weapons very precisely. Or something.

A joke in my family, this was acted out: Han Solo sees a lightsaber on the ground, tries to pick it up like a club, but grabs the wrong end.
  #188  
Old 02-19-2017, 09:51 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Well, Han does use a lightsabre once in the original trilogy-- To cut open the tauntaun (it smells even worse on the inside). But that's a slow, careful thing, not in the heat of combat.

And considering that a force-sensitive armed with a lightsabre is the next best thing to bulletproof, I'm not sure it's actually such a bad weapon after all (though one might fairly complain about blasters which fire projectiles that can be deflected by a lightsabre).
  #189  
Old 02-20-2017, 03:28 AM
Asuka Asuka is offline
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The shotguns in Halo only really make sense from a Spartan perspective. They're huge 8 gauge pump action shotguns firing magnum buckshot rounds, when your primary enemy are 8 foot tall aliens with energy shields that are backed up by even bigger and heavily armored aliens you'll want as much power as you can in a shotgun. However the problem with this is when you realize these are the shotguns that are standard issue to everyone, not just the power armored Spartans and these were standard issue well before the alien threat materialized (in Halo ODST the police cruisers are equipped with the very same shotguns meaning cops are running around with 8 gauge shotguns as well)

Not only must the recoil be hell for the average soldier but having to carry the sheer weight of them and their shells must also be considered. It seems like it would be a much better idea of the standard shotgun for the normal army be some sort of semi-automatic 12 gauge with a box magazine, that way while not as powerful you can make up for that with volume of fire.
  #190  
Old 02-20-2017, 09:52 AM
Lumpy Lumpy is offline
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Originally Posted by Asuka View Post
The shotguns in Halo only really make sense from a Spartan perspective. They're huge 8 gauge pump action shotguns firing magnum buckshot rounds, when your primary enemy are 8 foot tall aliens with energy shields that are backed up by even bigger and heavily armored aliens you'll want as much power as you can in a shotgun. However the problem with this is when you realize these are the shotguns that are standard issue to everyone, not just the power armored Spartans and these were standard issue well before the alien threat materialized (in Halo ODST the police cruisers are equipped with the very same shotguns meaning cops are running around with 8 gauge shotguns as well)
FWIW, the Soviets thought producing a 23mm (~6 gauge) shotgun was a good idea for riot suppression in prisons.
  #191  
Old 02-20-2017, 10:38 AM
gnoitall gnoitall is offline
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Originally Posted by Blue Blistering Barnacle View Post
From the story I read, rotating gave you the matter conversion beam weapon.

The AI computer just sort of "showed up" after the weapon had listened to enough human/kzinti jabber to communicate. It offered to show the kzinti the secret, but of course by that time the AI knew they were not tnuctipun or tnuctip allies/descendants. So it showed them the self destruct, which they obligingly activated.

I suppose it could have just decided to self destruct by itself, once it knew it had fallen into enemy hands...?
I fanwank that the Tnuctipun engineered an "air gap" between the AI and the firing trigger. It could advise the user to pull the trigger, but not activate the weapon itself. We don't know much authoritative about the Tnuctipun, but the general impression is that they were pretty paranoid about a lot of things (being superintelligent engineering and science geniuses enslaved to small stupid telepathic dominators while secretly planning and executing a rebellion may do that). Trusting AI may have been beyond their risk-tolerance limits.
  #192  
Old 02-20-2017, 01:41 PM
Trinopus Trinopus is offline
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I searched, and didn't see anyone having mentioned Barbarella's laser carbine.

(I think this is a fan reproduction, not the actual prop.)

Anyway, the stock isn't a very good brace for a human shoulder. (Maybe developed by aliens?)
  #193  
Old 02-20-2017, 03:28 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Wait, the stock is shaped like a hand? What would the reason for that be?

And if it's a laser, it might not have any recoil, which might lead to a different stock design (but still, a hand?).
  #194  
Old 02-21-2017, 09:13 AM
Half Man Half Wit Half Man Half Wit is online now
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They have a worse design flaw. No hyperdrive. Your cap ship leaves without you, or gets destroyed/captured, you're shit outta luck. Enjoy floating in space the rest of your life (aka until your air runs out).
Well, but that's really just the Empire's idea of motivation: defend your cap ship at all costs, or...
  #195  
Old 02-21-2017, 09:50 AM
Blue Blistering Barnacle Blue Blistering Barnacle is offline
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They have a worse design flaw. No hyperdrive. Your cap ship leaves without you, or gets destroyed/captured, you're shit outta luck. Enjoy floating in space the rest of your life (aka until your air runs out). Doesn't apply to certain advanced models, like the one Darth Vader flew in Star Wars (or he never would have been in either of the sequels), but the base model is pretty much a "hey, you're just cannon fodder, heh heh, empire"



They also don't have shields... That's just great in your primary fighter...



X-wings have both hyperdrives (obviously, they're how Luke travels to/from Dagobah) and shields. No wonder the Rebels were able to find recruits, no matter the numbers advantage of the Empire.


Not every platform should be able to do everything. Maybe X-wings are overdesigned or at least more generally designed, and not as good as TIE- fighters at the TIE-fighter's primary role of defending starships.

Or maybe TIE-fighter pilots are just on the wrong side of screen writers.
  #196  
Old 02-21-2017, 10:36 AM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Fundamentally, the difference between X-wings and TIE fighters is that the Rebels and the Empire place different values on human(oid) lives. To the Empire, pilots are cheap: They can draw pilots from a million worlds, and if some of them die, well, there are trillions more where they came from. If you can make a fighter with half the survivability, but at less than half the cost, then just make twice as many of them, and man them with twice as many expendable pilots.

To the rebels, of course, the pilots have value, and you can't just make a fighter with half the cost, because from their point of view the pilot is most of the value of the vessel, and you can't have half a pilot. So it makes sense to protect those precious pilots a little better.
  #197  
Old 02-21-2017, 11:48 AM
Lumpy Lumpy is offline
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Does the Rebellion even have any vessels that can serve as fighter carriers? If not then their fighters have to be hyperdrive capable. Then as long as you have a bigger and heavier fighter anyway, might as well throw in shields and more offensive armament. (In TESB bombing the asteroid required TIE variants specialized for the job).
  #198  
Old 02-21-2017, 12:16 PM
Blue Blistering Barnacle Blue Blistering Barnacle is offline
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FWIW, I'd always imagined that X and Y wings were old-type fighters left over from the Republic. The toughest and easiest to keep in repair.

The design philosophies and priorities of the Empire maybe different. But that doesn't make them "bad". (That is unless they are bad- they seem to underperform relative to the larger X-Wings; maybe the contract went to Darth Underbidder or to Darth Nephew. )
  #199  
Old 02-21-2017, 01:11 PM
smiling bandit smiling bandit is offline
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Originally Posted by Blue Blistering Barnacle View Post
FWIW, I'd always imagined that X and Y wings were old-type fighters left over from the Republic. The toughest and easiest to keep in repair.
I don't believe that was ever continuity.

Quote:
The design philosophies and priorities of the Empire maybe different. But that doesn't make them "bad". (That is unless they are bad- they seem to underperform relative to the larger X-Wings; maybe the contract went to Darth Underbidder or to Darth Nephew. )
I have a theory that the TIE/X-Wing difference came indirectly from WW2. The TIE would have been based on the Japanese "Zero," being a lightning-quick fighter but one without the firepower or toughness for a stand-up brawl. The X-Wing was probably based on the various American aircraft, which tended to be much tougher and more heavily armed. I could never find any specific description to demonstrate this, but I assume it's because Lucas was familiar with old war movies and used them to describe his setting and develop his space battles.
  #200  
Old 02-21-2017, 01:16 PM
swampspruce swampspruce is offline
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It's only been peripherally mentioned but non- crew served BFGs generally are really dumb unless you're scaled to hold it (Like a Giant or Troll in D&D holding a two-handed sword one handed). Predator and the mini-gun comes to mind off the top of my head. Even if you could hold and aim it you only get about a seconds worth of firing before you're out of ammo.
Know what happens when you fire a Barrett .50 from the hip? You spin in a circle.
Same applies for the stupid swords in the Final Fantasy series.

Last edited by swampspruce; 02-21-2017 at 01:18 PM.
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