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  #1  
Old 05-25-2016, 12:48 PM
Fenris Fenris is offline
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DC Rebirth--Spoilers ahoy--So wait...the BigBad responsible for the New 52 is really....

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Dr. Manhattan? From Watchmen? Really? The reason that the Superman books suck donkey balls isn't bad writing or throwing out the essential elements that make him Superman or an urge to be "hip and down with the young folks", it's a naked blue guy on Mars decided to fuck things up?

Dr Manhattan turned Starfire from a strong woman warrior into "Little Annie Fanny"? And his motivation for this was.....?

All of the characters became grim and unlikable and loud and "hip" and stupid because of Jon Osterman?

That's what they chose to go with? Really?

Bwah?

After buying most of DC's output from like 1977-ish to dropping down to just a few titles after the start of the New52 to being down to Scott Snyder's Batman the last year or so (and Titans Rebirth), I don't know if I care about the characters any more.
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  #2  
Old 05-25-2016, 12:51 PM
Push You Down Push You Down is offline
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Geoff Johns at DC has a buy back program if you didn't like it.

Really...

http://www.newsarama.com/29441-geoff...ampaign=buffer
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  #3  
Old 05-25-2016, 12:57 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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This is like bad fan fiction, especially that one shot where
SPOILER:
Batman finds the bloody smiley face button on the wall of his batcave!
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  #4  
Old 05-25-2016, 01:01 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by Push You Down View Post
Geoff Johns at DC has a buy back program if you didn't like it.

Really...

http://www.newsarama.com/29441-geoff...ampaign=buffer
Does he offer Zatanna's mindwipe program?
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  #5  
Old 05-25-2016, 01:03 PM
Fenris Fenris is offline
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The thing is, the book itself wasn't bad until the reveal. If they'd have kept Dr. M out of it and just said that "Hey, that Pandora chick's meddling is what screwed things up" or "Who cares why things were so crappy, let's fix 'em", I'd have been fine. But no.
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  #6  
Old 05-25-2016, 01:15 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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"Things have been getting too dark lately. We're going to bring back fun, levity, and love to the DC universe!"
"Really? How?"
"We're folding The Watchmen into mainline continuity!"

http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lr...ze0o1_1280.jpg

Seriously, how long until they find Geoff Johns' head in Alan Moore's freezer?
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  #7  
Old 05-25-2016, 01:15 PM
Horatio Hellpop Horatio Hellpop is offline
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I kind of like the "three Jokers" idea. I've long suspected that there are two (since that's how many come with a deck of cards), and he sometimes understands the profit motive and other times he doesn't.
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  #8  
Old 05-25-2016, 01:18 PM
Dendarii Dame Dendarii Dame is offline
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
This is like bad fan fiction, especially that one shot where
SPOILER:
Batman finds the bloody smiley face button on the wall of his batcave!
I'll take your word for it that it's bad fan fic, but the image is cool.
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  #9  
Old 05-25-2016, 01:25 PM
Fenris Fenris is offline
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I kind of like the "three Jokers" idea. I've long suspected that there are two (since that's how many come with a deck of cards), and he sometimes understands the profit motive and other times he doesn't.
I just read speculation that one of the three Jokers (the one who does all the international stuff, who murdered Jason Todd and who was in the Killing Joke) is The Comedian. I don't know who the other two Jokers are/were.

And (I didn't read the issue) but apparently if you go read Superman Nu52 #32 there are hints that (in retrospect) Ozmandyas is the mysterious "Mr. Oz".

And that the Nu52 Question (who's name/crime/etc still haven't been explained) is Rorschach.

If all this is true, kudos to the level of planning involved. But it's still a dumb idea
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  #10  
Old 05-25-2016, 01:26 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Originally Posted by Horatio Hellpop View Post
I kind of like the "three Jokers" idea. I've long suspected that there are two (since that's how many come with a deck of cards), and he sometimes understands the profit motive and other times he doesn't.
And "The World's Greatest Detective" needed info from Metron's Magic Massage Chair to figure it out? He didn't notice that they didn't look, sound or act quite alike? At no time prior to this had they ever pulled off two or three capers in different places at the same time?
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  #11  
Old 05-25-2016, 04:17 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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Originally Posted by Czarcasm View Post
And "The World's Greatest Detective" needed info from Metron's Magic Massage Chair to figure it out? He didn't notice that they didn't look, sound or act quite alike? At no time prior to this had they ever pulled off two or three capers in different places at the same time?
Don't forget he and his peers installed security in Elongated Man's home that included Kryptonian, Thanagarian and New God technology....but not a security camera.

Nor did anyone think to go back in time OR any kind of ritual enabling them to see into the past.
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  #12  
Old 05-25-2016, 04:20 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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I haven't read the issue but if they kept the reveal contained and his interaction to say...John Constantine or somebody smart but low powered ...or humble like Swamp Thing to parlay with him into undoing his "experiment"...I'd have no problem with it.

a big blue God from another reality effed with the universe. Ok, now fix it.
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  #13  
Old 05-25-2016, 04:35 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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Don't forget he and his peers installed security in Elongated Man's home that included Kryptonian, Thanagarian and New God technology....but not a security camera.
As was pointed out at the time, here's a LAW & ORDER drinking game: Step One, start binge-watching old episodes; Step Two, take a shot and skip to the next episode when someone runs the victim's phone records; Step Three, no one survives this game.

Because that's what you do, right? Someone is killed, run their phone records; it's beyond common sense; it's routine, it's procedure; it's Investigation 101.
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  #14  
Old 05-25-2016, 04:46 PM
Sefton Sefton is online now
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After looking at DC's Rebirth and Marvel's decision to make Cap a Hydra spy, I've decided not to care about comics anymore. I'm done.
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  #15  
Old 05-25-2016, 04:54 PM
Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor is offline
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After looking at DC's Rebirth and Marvel's decision to make Cap a Hydra spy, I've decided not to care about comics anymore. I'm done.
There are still the Indys.
And Archie, which has done some damn brave stuff, lately.
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  #16  
Old 05-25-2016, 05:00 PM
smiling bandit smiling bandit is offline
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After looking at DC's Rebirth and Marvel's decision to make Cap a Hydra spy, I've decided not to care about comics anymore. I'm done.
Bolding mine.

Say what now? If it's some kind of mind control plot, then OK, but... well... Marvel editorial has been making some very questionable decisions, to the point where i have no idea what they're thinking. SO I could very well believe they'd try something like this.
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  #17  
Old 05-25-2016, 05:12 PM
DigitalC DigitalC is online now
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Bolding mine.

Say what now? If it's some kind of mind control plot, then OK, but... well... Marvel editorial has been making some very questionable decisions, to the point where i have no idea what they're thinking. SO I could very well believe they'd try something like this.
No, they are saying he was ALWAYS a Hydra spy. Just in super deep cover or something. It's the stupidest thing ever, even when compared to that DC reboot.
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  #18  
Old 05-25-2016, 05:20 PM
Dale Sams Dale Sams is offline
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I quit with New 52...which was a pity because I really liked what they were doing right before . But no red underwear? Superman in blue jeans? No thank you

As far as Marvel....I enjoyed their end of it all event. But that's a good spot for me to leave, not sign up for more
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  #19  
Old 05-25-2016, 05:58 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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No, they are saying he was ALWAYS a Hydra spy. Just in super deep cover or something. It's the stupidest thing ever, even when compared to that DC reboot.
I'm amazed at how many people are taking this reveal at face value. I mean, how many reality warpers, alt-universe characters, clones, body doubles, life-model decoys, and psychic parasites do you need to cram into one fictional world before, "They're breaking my favorite character!" stops being the default reaction?

My money's one this not being the "real" Captain America, but an alt-universe one that landed in the 616 after the end of Battleworld, same as old man Logan. That, or the sentient cosmic cube that deaged him accidentally rewrote his history. But whatever they go with, they'll find some way of explaining why this isn't really Cap, or why this Cap isn't really Hydra.
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  #20  
Old 05-25-2016, 06:03 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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No, they are saying he was ALWAYS a Hydra spy. Just in super deep cover or something.
Are they, though?

I mean, yes, they're saying it, and it looks like Cap is finally showing his true colors after having been a super-deep-cover sleeper agent who's been innocuously acting like a patriotic hero all this time -- but what's the other thing that looks exactly like that? Cap actually having been a patriotic hero all this time, while pretending to be a super-duper-deep-cover operative innocuously playing sleeper agent.

"What's that? You're finally activating me? Uh, hail hydra; take me to our fearless leader, I have a lot to report. No, 'report' isn't a euphemism for throat-punch."
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  #21  
Old 05-25-2016, 06:31 PM
Sefton Sefton is online now
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It's great that you guys are making apologies for Marvel, and I agree that they'll find a way to bring Cap back to normal. But this is still a stupid gimmick to drum up sales. It's the comic equivalent of clickbait.
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  #22  
Old 05-25-2016, 06:47 PM
Push You Down Push You Down is offline
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It's great that you guys are making apologies for Marvel, and I agree that they'll find a way to bring Cap back to normal. But this is still a stupid gimmick to drum up sales. It's the comic equivalent of clickbait.
It's a twist in the first part of the story.
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  #23  
Old 05-25-2016, 06:48 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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I'm amazed at how many people are taking this reveal at face value. I mean, how many reality warpers, alt-universe characters, clones, body doubles, life-model decoys, and psychic parasites do you need to cram into one fictional world before, "They're breaking my favorite character!" stops being the default reaction?

My money's one this not being the "real" Captain America, but an alt-universe one that landed in the 616 after the end of Battleworld, same as old man Logan. That, or the sentient cosmic cube that deaged him accidentally rewrote his history. But whatever they go with, they'll find some way of explaining why this isn't really Cap, or why this Cap isn't really Hydra.
Ummm....about that-Still want to put your money down on that?
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  #24  
Old 05-25-2016, 06:51 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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I'm just hoping DC starts the new Prez up again. I liked that.

I saw Flashpoint as a jumping-off point, though I have bought some DC books that were outside the core of whatever Geoff thinks he's doing. I'm just about ready to dump Marvel as well for a while.
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  #25  
Old 05-25-2016, 07:05 PM
foolsguinea foolsguinea is offline
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I'm not bothered by Steve Rogers being a HYDRA spy, because I've actually read enough Captain America comics to know that it could be something the Red Skull did with a Cosmic Cube. (Man, like all that weirdness over Sam Wilson's origin). Captain America has a long history of dumb weirdness.

I didn't actually quit Marvel with "(There is only) Secret Wars" even though the writer was selling it as the perfect jumping off point. I was inclined to skip "Civil War II" but I guess I'll just get the issues of my books that cross over into it and ride it out. Depending on what shape the MU is in at the end, and how upset I am at Marvel (is Jen dead, or just in the hospital?), I may stick around. But as much as I've been enjoying Marvel, I'm not going to enjoy this crossover, & I think I'd rather put the comics budget into imports & small press stuff.
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  #26  
Old 05-25-2016, 07:10 PM
Grumman Grumman is offline
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I'm amazed at how many people are taking this reveal at face value. I mean, how many reality warpers, alt-universe characters, clones, body doubles, life-model decoys, and psychic parasites do you need to cram into one fictional world before, "They're breaking my favorite character!" stops being the default reaction?
That's missing the point. Even if they have an excuse lined up for their Captain America Is A Nazi plotline, that they even wanted a Captain America Is A Nazi plotline is more than enough reason to be rid of them. Tying continuity in knots to justify their latest stupid idea isn't the solution, it's part of the problem.
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  #27  
Old 05-25-2016, 07:10 PM
Leaper Leaper is online now
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I'm reading a lot from fans who are kind of ticked regardless of how the Cap story ends up, seeing something kind of dismissive and offensive in taking a Jewish created character meant to fight against the Nazis and, well, making him a Nazis. Brings to mind what they've tried to do with the Magnus family, never mind romanticizing Hydra.

I've also read guesses that this is trying to cement Sam Wilson as Captain America, which if true is dumb.

Last edited by Leaper; 05-25-2016 at 07:11 PM..
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  #28  
Old 05-25-2016, 07:12 PM
Prof. Pepperwinkle Prof. Pepperwinkle is online now
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Looking at the comic, all I can think is: "Oh, wow, they're bringing back Wally West, the JSA and Ted Kord?" I may start reading DC again.
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  #29  
Old 05-25-2016, 07:17 PM
Fenris Fenris is offline
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Don't forget he and his peers installed security in Elongated Man's home that included Kryptonian, Thanagarian and New God technology....but not a security camera.

Nor did anyone think to go back in time OR any kind of ritual enabling them to see into the past.
Or *69. "Last Number Dialed"
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  #30  
Old 05-25-2016, 07:21 PM
Fenris Fenris is offline
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Looking at the comic, all I can think is: "Oh, wow, they're bringing back Wally West, the JSA and Ted Kord?" I may start reading DC again.
And Legion.

That's how I felt until the last 2 pages.
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  #31  
Old 05-25-2016, 07:45 PM
Prof. Pepperwinkle Prof. Pepperwinkle is online now
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And Legion.

That's how I felt until the last 2 pages.

Hey, maybe it's just Mr. Mxyzptlk having a laugh.
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  #32  
Old 05-25-2016, 07:54 PM
dropzone dropzone is offline
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And this is why I only read Marvel. Or did, back in the day. Sounds like it sucks these days.
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  #33  
Old 05-25-2016, 08:27 PM
Fenris Fenris is offline
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Hey, maybe it's just Mr. Mxyzptlk having a laugh.
....that's...that's freakin' crazy-brilliant. If they did that, it would be the best damn plot twist ever.

Seriously--that's magnificent. I take my hat off to you Professor.
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  #34  
Old 05-25-2016, 08:27 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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That's missing the point. Even if they have an excuse lined up for their Captain America Is A Nazi plotline, that they even wanted a Captain America Is A Nazi plotline is more than enough reason to be rid of them. Tying continuity in knots to justify their latest stupid idea isn't the solution, it's part of the problem.
If you think that's part the problem, you're missing the point of superhero comics.

Last edited by Miller; 05-25-2016 at 09:15 PM.. Reason: Smilies!
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  #35  
Old 05-26-2016, 08:39 AM
CandidGamera CandidGamera is offline
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I'm thrilled with Rebirth, it's the best fix for the New 52 I could have realistically hoped for. Putting the blame on Dr. Manhattan as a proxy for the 'grim and gritty' trend that Watchmen started works fine for me.

And with Hydra-Cap and Civil War 2, I can just shift my reading dollars back from Marvel to DC. Easy-peasy.
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  #36  
Old 05-26-2016, 09:26 AM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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I'm thrilled with Rebirth, it's the best fix for the New 52 I could have realistically hoped for. Putting the blame on Dr. Manhattan as a proxy for the 'grim and gritty' trend that Watchmen started works fine for me.
Bah. That line of Doctor Manhattan's that they built the issue around -- where, after regaining interest in human life, and choosing to preserve life, he talks about maybe creating life -- that's on the heels of him giving Laurie a warm and human smile. It's not grim or gritty; it's contemplative, but it's upbeat -- and it's followed by Laurie meeting with her mom and explaining that everything is okay and hugging her and forgiving her, and Dan is there and still as enthusiastic about helping people as ever, and the sun is shining and optimism is all over the place.
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  #37  
Old 05-26-2016, 09:40 AM
planetcory planetcory is offline
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Despite that mantra being consistently repeated, the New 52 wasn't all 'grim and gritty.' People just chose to focus on the grittier aspects, then bring out their broad brushes to paint.

As usual, its biggest sin is that it changed a bunch of stuff.

Last edited by planetcory; 05-26-2016 at 09:44 AM..
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  #38  
Old 05-26-2016, 11:15 AM
furryman furryman is offline
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I've decided not to care about the big picture years ago. I buy comics that are funny (Starfire) and seem to have their own universe (Hellcat, Thor).

Last edited by furryman; 05-26-2016 at 11:15 AM..
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  #39  
Old 05-26-2016, 12:02 PM
cmkeller cmkeller is offline
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Doctor Manhattan? What happened, did Superboy-Prime break his wrist?

I'm on the fence as to whether or not I'm likely to take up comics again. Certainly the Legion and JSA are two things that I miss most from before Flush-point. But I really have no confidence that the current DC crew isn't going to pull this again in two more years if sales disappoint.
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  #40  
Old 05-26-2016, 12:47 PM
Dendarii Dame Dendarii Dame is offline
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And Legion.

That's how I felt until the last 2 pages.
I don't follow Legion these days. Please let me know what's going on?
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  #41  
Old 05-26-2016, 12:55 PM
CandidGamera CandidGamera is offline
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Bah. That line of Doctor Manhattan's that they built the issue around -- where, after regaining interest in human life, and choosing to preserve life, he talks about maybe creating life -- that's on the heels of him giving Laurie a warm and human smile. It's not grim or gritty; it's contemplative, but it's upbeat -- and it's followed by Laurie meeting with her mom and explaining that everything is okay and hugging her and forgiving her, and Dan is there and still as enthusiastic about helping people as ever, and the sun is shining and optimism is all over the place.
For about two pages after a relentless and lengthy deconstruction of hope and inspiration.

It's like ending an hour long diatribe with "oops, just kidding". And even then, it's just a delayed doomsday, because as we're shown with all the subtlety of a Cirque de Soleil piece, Rorschach's journal can unravel the fragile peace.

Watchmen is cynical. The ending does not change that. It actually reinforces it.
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  #42  
Old 05-26-2016, 01:02 PM
CandidGamera CandidGamera is offline
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Despite that mantra being consistently repeated, the New 52 wasn't all 'grim and gritty.' People just chose to focus on the grittier aspects, then bring out their broad brushes to paint.

As usual, its biggest sin is that it changed a bunch of stuff.
There was a line-wide house writing style that made nearly every character surly and unlikable. That style finally started to break down with the surprise success of Harley Quinn's book, so in the last couple of years, they have tried some non grim and gritty offerings, but it is overwhelmingly not the core characters of the DCU that benefited from that latter-day shift.

Superman is the character that suffered most, because he doesn't work in a grim, cynical universe were people try to shoehorn in some exaggerated sense of "realism". The Grant Morrison run on Action wasn't bad, but it was a lower-power, street level Superman ('grittier', if not 'grim' - though they killed the Kents again) and as soon as he left, that title began to flounder as badly as its sister title, Superman.

So yeah, you can point to a few bright spots - at the fringes, later on, after they admitted to themselves that cynicism wasn't working - but nobody is saying that the New 52 was one hundred percent grim and gritty from beginning to end, they're saying it was too grim and too gritty for their tastes, and that's why people stopped buying it.
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  #43  
Old 05-26-2016, 01:03 PM
cmkeller cmkeller is offline
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Dendarii Dame:

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I don't follow Legion these days. Please let me know what's going on?
Depending on how long "these days" means to you, you might not have missed a thing. Legion hasn't had a regularly published series in three years, and their last appearance anywhere in a DC Comic was about two years ago.
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  #44  
Old 05-26-2016, 01:21 PM
Fenris Fenris is offline
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Dendarii Dame:



Depending on how long "these days" means to you, you might not have missed a thing. Legion hasn't had a regularly published series in three years, and their last appearance anywhere in a DC Comic was about two years ago.
And their last appearance was largely an afterthought. A bunch of Legionaires had been stranded in the present and then their book was cancelled. The last appearances was in some third-string Justice League book and had something to do with Ultra The Multi-Alien getting them back to the future as part of a bigger plotline. So they really went out with a whimper.

In the DC Rebirth comic, we see the back of some blonde female Legion member (almost certainly Saturn Girl) who's being questioned by the police and gives a hopey-changey speech about how everything's gonna be all right because she's "seen the future".
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  #45  
Old 05-26-2016, 01:21 PM
Czarcasm Czarcasm is online now
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Depending on how long "these days" means to you, you might not have missed a thing. Legion hasn't had a regularly published series in three years, and their last appearance anywhere in a DC Comic was about two years ago.
That's right. Ambush Bug has made more regular appearances.
Hell, so have Sugar and Spike.
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  #46  
Old 05-26-2016, 01:29 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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For about two pages after a relentless and lengthy deconstruction of hope and inspiration.

It's like ending an hour long diatribe with "oops, just kidding". And even then, it's just a delayed doomsday, because as we're shown with all the subtlety of a Cirque de Soleil piece, Rorschach's journal can unravel the fragile peace.
...or not. The last page comes down to, will Seymour make the choice that Rorschach did, or will he make the choice that Dan and Laurie and Adrian and Jon did? It's up to the person reading the story whether the world is saved.

Quote:
Watchmen is cynical. The ending does not change that. It actually reinforces it.
Is "cynical" the right word for Dan, deciding what's important is keeping billions of people from dying? Is "cynical" the right word for Laurie, deciding what's important is saving the Earth? Is "cynical" the right word for Adrian, deciding what's important is working against the end of the world? Is "cynical" the right word for Jon, deciding what's important is preserving life and perhaps creating some?

Find me a character who imagines people crying out for him to save them, so he can look down and whisper "no" -- okay, maybe call that guy a cynic. But people who choose to take a stand against armageddon? I look at that last page, and -- well, the optimist in me of course hopes that guy will act to preserve life instead of making a monstrous choice, but, again, that's me; we were talking about Jon.

What, on that last page, would Jon want that guy to choose?

Where did we leave Jon? As someone who wants humanity to live, or the opposite?
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  #47  
Old 05-26-2016, 01:54 PM
Steve MB Steve MB is offline
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Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
Dr Manhattan turned Starfire from a strong woman warrior into "Little Annie Fanny"? And his motivation for this was.....?
Because even a demigodlike being whose awareness spans the spacetime continuum can be just another gorny hi.
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  #48  
Old 05-26-2016, 02:57 PM
Grumman Grumman is offline
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
Is "cynical" the right word for Dan, deciding what's important is keeping billions of people from dying? Is "cynical" the right word for Laurie, deciding what's important is saving the Earth? Is "cynical" the right word for Adrian, deciding what's important is working against the end of the world? Is "cynical" the right word for Jon, deciding what's important is preserving life and perhaps creating some?
It is cynical to believe that murdering millions of people and framing an innocent man is even necessary to prevent billions of people from dying. That they make themselves complicit in the supervillain's act of mass murder because they believe he is right is cynical as hell.
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  #49  
Old 05-26-2016, 03:04 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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Originally Posted by Grumman View Post
It is cynical to believe that murdering millions of people and framing an innocent man is even necessary to prevent billions of people from dying. That they make themselves complicit in the supervillain's act of mass murder because they believe he is right is cynical as hell.
Well, doesn't that depend entirely on whether he is right?

If he's right, and they really do have a choice between preserving life or dooming it; if he in fact was looking at the otherwise-inevitable extinction of humanity, and found a way to instead save the lives of billions; in that case, what's the optimistic thing to do? What's the pessimistic thing to do? What's the cynical thing to do?
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  #50  
Old 05-26-2016, 03:40 PM
tim314 tim314 is offline
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
It's not grim or gritty; it's contemplative, but it's upbeat
Yeah, this is what doesn't make sense to me. I've seen some reviewers saying "Well, it kind of makes sense that it's all Dr. Manhattan's fault; after all Watchmen helped start the whole grim-and-gritty comics trend." But just because Watchmen is grim and gritty doesn't mean Dr. Manhattan is grim and gritty. If anything, his defining personality trait is that he's so detached; he only manages to care about the fate of mankind after he realizes that life is interesting in a sort of mathematical sense.

If the big reveal was that Alan Moore used his omnipotent powers to make comics dark and grim, that would make more sense.
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