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  #1  
Old 02-13-2017, 10:04 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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How dare the Grammys not give Beyonce every award!

I don't even like Adele's album much, but I'm streaming it now just on general principle. I'm so sick of the "Beyhive" (or the "Beygency", as one of the greatest SNL bits ever called them). I'm sure her R&B-inflected dance-pop is just fine for people who like that sort of thing (I don't), but to hear them grouse, you'd think she's Gandhi, MLK, and the Pope rolled into one. Oh, and Jesus, eternally suffering on the cross.
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  #2  
Old 02-13-2017, 10:20 PM
Isamu Isamu is offline
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Whatever floats your boat (as some other doper famously once said)
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Old 02-13-2017, 10:54 PM
Aeschines Aeschines is offline
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I made a thread about Bey awhile back saying that, for all the hype about her, people really don't seem to care much about the individual songs. It's quite odd, really.

I think Bey is the ultimate musical mediocrity of our age. Her songs have no hooks, no edge, nothing to say. They are so fucking dull. They have a zillion writers and producers and make no artistic statement and have no artistic perspective whatsoever.

BTW, who gives a fuck about the Grammys? There is no there there and hasn't been for a long time.
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Old 02-14-2017, 12:17 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Originally Posted by Aeschines View Post
I made a thread about Bey awhile back saying that, for all the hype about her, people really don't seem to care much about the individual songs. It's quite odd, really.

I think Bey is the ultimate musical mediocrity of our age. Her songs have no hooks, no edge, nothing to say. They are so fucking dull. They have a zillion writers and producers and make no artistic statement and have no artistic perspective whatsoever.

BTW, who gives a fuck about the Grammys? There is no there there and hasn't been for a long time.
I mostly agree with you, but a lot of people are going apeshit over her only winning two "lesser" Grammys. And critics constantly insist her music is a groundbreaking œuvre of rare genius, which really annoys me. Seriously? Or are they just afraid of the Beygency too? (If you haven't seen that clip I linked, you are really missing out!)
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  #5  
Old 02-14-2017, 12:40 AM
Aeschines Aeschines is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I mostly agree with you, but a lot of people are going apeshit over her only winning two "lesser" Grammys. And critics constantly insist her music is a groundbreaking œuvre of rare genius, which really annoys me. Seriously? Or are they just afraid of the Beygency too? (If you haven't seen that clip I linked, you are really missing out!)
Just watched. Very well done! Not to mention hilarious!

Yeah. It's like Bey stands for some sort of symbol of--something?--that we're supposed to praise and get excited about. But the music is secondary, if not tertiary. It's bizarre.
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  #6  
Old 02-14-2017, 12:48 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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It really is.
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  #7  
Old 02-14-2017, 03:11 AM
The Pork-Chop Express The Pork-Chop Express is offline
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You're all just not ready for this jelly.
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  #8  
Old 02-14-2017, 06:46 AM
Odesio Odesio is offline
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I'm just glad she's keeping busy since her appearance in Austin Powers 3.
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  #9  
Old 02-14-2017, 07:02 AM
Novelty Bobble Novelty Bobble is offline
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People get angry about pretty much everything these days and woe betide those who have an opinion or break the lockstep of cultural orthodoxy. Of course, the other side of that coin is a tiresome need for some to dislike anything that has a whiff of appreciation by the great unwashed.

It is all pretty depressing. For myself, Adele's music catches my attention even when played from a radio in another room, it stands out, it is appealing to me. A track was played from Beyonce's latest album and I found it utterly dreadful and couldn't change the channel fast enough.

There's no great conclusion to be drawn from this other than I like one and not the other, but that is simply not enough substance on which to build a frothing outrage is it? It is never enough for some people to be considered "right", they also demand that others are labelled "wrong". It always smacks of a sense of inferiority to me.

The same is true of music, film, literature, art or anything based on subjective and personal emotional experiences.
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  #10  
Old 02-14-2017, 08:10 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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The outrage was so weird I had to look it up and found that Beyonce has won twenty-two Grammy Awards. Twenty-two. (That does include awards won as a member of Destiny's Child, but most are as a solo artist.) Gosh, it's so upsetting that the woman who won 22 damn awards didn't make it 24.

By way of comparison, the goddamn BEATLES won ten Grammys and five of them happened after they weren't a band anymore. Only six human beings have ever won more Grammy Awards than Beyonce, plus a few (including Stevie Wonder and U2) are tied with her. Beyonce has more Grammys than Michael Jackson and Prince combined.

Last edited by RickJay; 02-14-2017 at 08:13 AM..
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  #11  
Old 02-14-2017, 08:32 AM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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this kind of crap is why I think a "Calexit" might not be entirely bad. I'm tired of sharing a country with these self-absorbed, entitled celebrity (redacted)s.
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  #12  
Old 02-14-2017, 08:39 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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You know, if she'd lost to Milli Vanilli or something, there might be a point. But she lost to Adele, whose album was released to huge critical acclaim, and who is a fabulous musician. There is no shame (and no racism) in losing to Adele and 25.
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  #13  
Old 02-14-2017, 09:16 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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I think that's actually an important point. A more relevant contemporary example might be, I dunno, if Iggy Azalea put out another dumb album.

If I said "I think Star Wars was robbed by Annie Hall for Best Picture in 1977," that's a valid opinion but the opposite opinion is extremely easily defended. Maybe it was, but you can make a really good argument Annie Hall was the superior movie. That's basically the argument between Adele and Beyonce.

People are reacting as if they stiffed Star Wars and Annie Hall and gave Best Picture to "The Crater Lake Monster"
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  #14  
Old 02-14-2017, 09:37 AM
Ludovic Ludovic is offline
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Originally Posted by SlackerInc View Post
I don't even like Adele's
You know, I'm happy for you and imma let you finish but I can't believe Beyonce didn't win every award this year!
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  #15  
Old 02-14-2017, 10:29 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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LOL
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  #16  
Old 02-14-2017, 10:44 AM
Lucas Jackson Lucas Jackson is offline
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Beyoncé is the Steve Miller of today.
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  #17  
Old 02-14-2017, 11:00 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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In fairness, something strange and potentially worrisome has happened at the Grammys over the past nine years. I went to look at decades' worth of winners so as to potentially rebut the arguments of racism, and I found something I wasn't quite expecting that I'm not going to just sweep under the rug now that I discovered it.

Looking just at what are arguably the top two awards, Record of the Year and Album of the Year: from 1984 to 2008, a healthy 17 of the 50 statuettes awarded in those two categories went to black artists. That is three times as great as their percentage in the US population, which makes sense because they have generally overrepresented their demographic numbers in popular music.

But oddly enough (and one would think coincidentally, given the fact that the music industry is not run by the "alt-right"), immediately after we elected our first black president (who brought many black artists to the White House), the Grammys started on its current tear of 18 straight white winners in those two categories. 18-0. Kind of weird. Hopefully just a random statistical run, like you will sometimes get when flipping a coin. But it starts to look bad, especially for younger people who didn't get to see all those awards going to black artists in the quarter-century before this all-white stretch began.

I hope the streak is broken soon, although preferably by some other artist than Beyoncé.
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  #18  
Old 02-14-2017, 11:01 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
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That's not a great example. Steve Miller was never the multi-platform celebrity and fashion icon Beyonce is. I'm struggling to really think of a good comparison; I am sure someone will come up with a better one.

It is certainly quite plausible that in 20-30 years, Beyonce's body of work won't be very memorable. I agree with a lot of posters that except for "Single Ladies," she doesn't have a lot of really memorable songs. Madonna was not, and is not, an especially talented musician by professional standards, but she has many, many memorable songs - I can probably recognize two dozen Madonna singles and I've literally never bought a single recording of hers. But, then again, who knows? It is not easy to ascertain what music will last and what music won't. I'm sure once upon a time people said Elton John's music was forgettable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SlackerInc
But oddly enough (and one would think coincidentally, given the fact that the music industry is not run by the "alt-right"), immediately after we elected our first black president (who brought many black artists to the White House), the Grammys started on its current tear of 18 straight white winners in those two categories. 18-0. Kind of weird. Hopefully just a random statistical run, like you will sometimes get when flipping a coin. But it starts to look bad, especially for younger people who didn't get to see all those awards going to black artists in the quarter-century before this all-white stretch began.
Actually, that's kind of weird. I can't deny that. IT's within the range of statistical possibility but seems unlikely.

As you say, it's not like Steve Bannon runs the Grammy Awards, but one wonders if there is not a propensity to give the trophies to the African-American artists in the R&B and rap categories.

Last edited by RickJay; 02-14-2017 at 11:11 AM..
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  #19  
Old 02-14-2017, 11:10 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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It is definitely an interesting scenario with Beyoncé that she is a mega-celebrity but very questionable in terms of judging strictly by her music. Whatever style of music is in vogue at a given point in time, I would like to think music awards would be judged on musical terms rather than on celebrity/fashion culture. And I'm not against fashion: I watch Project Runway religiously. But that's a different art form which should stay in its own lane.
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  #20  
Old 02-14-2017, 11:28 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Actually, that's kind of weird. I can't deny that. IT's within the range of statistical possibility but seems unlikely.

As you say, it's not like Steve Bannon runs the Grammy Awards, but one wonders if there is not a propensity to give the trophies to the African-American artists in the R&B and rap categories.
Yes, and "urban". But are those categories so new? If so, it may have actually begun as an attempt to recognize more black artists but ended up ghettoizing them.
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  #21  
Old 02-14-2017, 01:23 PM
Aeschines Aeschines is offline
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I think it's fine to criticize the Oscars or Grammys for being unfair or too white, etc. Such critiques usually seem on target to me. Because they're not well-run affairs. They are big commercials for their respective industries. They are in effect designed to maximize the revenue of those industries, so they tend to be rather conservative, white-bread, and safe.

But what I don't get is when people seem to get really worked up about them and take them seriously. They have no meaning, and it's fine to tune them out completely.
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  #22  
Old 02-14-2017, 01:47 PM
astorian astorian is online now
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I pretty much stopped watching the Grammies thirty plus years ago, just because they never (or almost never) honored any artists I liked. After a while, I just accepted that my kind of music was never going to win awards, and I stopped caring.

Neither Beyonce nor Adele is my cup of tea, but it doesn't hurt my feelings if someone wants to give either of them an award.

If you don't like the act that wins a Grammy (or Oscar or Tony or Emmy or...), well, create your own award and give it to whomever you like. Or blow it off- do you even remember who won the Grammy for Best Album in 1981?

Pssst: It was Christopher Cross- the Grammies have been going to lame acts forever! Why would you ever take them seriously?
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  #23  
Old 02-14-2017, 02:00 PM
ZipperJJ ZipperJJ is offline
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I think it's weird that Adele's 25 came out in November of 2015, and there was a Grammy awards show in February of 2016 but she wasn't nominated until the 2017 Grammys.

Sucks, cuz they could have both been huge winners in 2016 and 2017. Beyonce's more-interesting, more Internet-breaking album could have won in 2017 and Adele's more accessible and more timeless album could have won in 2016. But instead last year we got Taylor Swift and this year Beyonce got the shaft.

Does anyone know why 25 was eligible in 2017?
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  #24  
Old 02-14-2017, 02:28 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Zipper, I can give you the shallow version of why but not the deeper one. The eligibility period was from October 1, 2015 through September 30 of 2016. As for why they do it that way, I don't have a clue.

It does seem like Adele's "Hello" was all the rage ages and ages ago.
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Old 02-14-2017, 02:45 PM
ISiddiqui ISiddiqui is offline
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You know, if she'd lost to Milli Vanilli or something, there might be a point. But she lost to Adele, whose album was released to huge critical acclaim, and who is a fabulous musician. There is no shame (and no racism) in losing to Adele and 25.
On other hand, Beyonce's "Lemonade" was so critically acclaimed that Adele literally apologized on stage to Beyonce for winning Album of the Year. When the winner publicly acknowledges that she didn't deserve the award it may be indeed be the case. In essence its similar to when Macklemore when Best Rap Artist over Kendrick Lamar and when Jethro Tull won best Metal Artist over Metallica (but Jethro Tull didn't apologize, IIRC, in their acceptance speech).
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  #26  
Old 02-14-2017, 04:21 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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On other hand, Beyonce's "Lemonade" was so critically acclaimed that Adele literally apologized on stage to Beyonce for winning Album of the Year. When the winner publicly acknowledges that she didn't deserve the award it may be indeed be the case. In essence its similar to when Macklemore when Best Rap Artist over Kendrick Lamar and when Jethro Tull won best Metal Artist over Metallica (but Jethro Tull didn't apologize, IIRC, in their acceptance speech).
Or Adele is one of those people who underestimates herself and likes to build up others. Which doesn't mean she didn't deserve to win, just that she didn't expect to win.

(ETA: That sort of behavior - apologizing for being better, underestimating yourself, and underplaying yourself, is culturally so "white woman" it hurts.)

Last edited by Dangerosa; 02-14-2017 at 04:22 PM..
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  #27  
Old 02-14-2017, 04:21 PM
Lucas Jackson Lucas Jackson is offline
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Point taken. Maybe I should have said Beyoncé's music is the Steve Miller of today. Popular but rock solidly mediocre.
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  #28  
Old 02-14-2017, 04:38 PM
Starving Artist Starving Artist is online now
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I've long felt that Beyonce is a mediocre talent as a singer and have said so on this board before. It's nice to see that no less than Carlos Santana agrees.

In looking around the net it appears that Adele has been obsessed with Beyonce for quite some time. Here are a few comments from last May in Vanity Fair magazine:

Quote:
"Beyoncé is the most inspiring person I’ve ever had the pleasure of worshipping."
Quote:
She continued, “I’m such a fan, oh my God!” Eventually, she added, “Obviously, Queen Bey to the day I die.”
Quote:
"...my main priority in life outside of my child is Beyoncé.”


And from the same article is this Instagram photo of Adele slavering over a photo of Beyonce in her younger days.

I think it's safe to say we should take Adele's opinion on the so-called greatness of Lemonade with a considerable grain of salt.
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  #29  
Old 02-14-2017, 06:12 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Wow, apparently so! I didn't know she was such a fanatic. That makes the whole thing extremely awkward for her, clearly.

Before I read that post, and also before I learned about this crazy streak since 2008, I actually assumed she was doing that because she knew that winning as a white artist over a black one could lead to the very shitstorm we've been seeing, and she wanted to insulate herself personally from it. And even still, I have seen that she has gotten a fair amount of flack for using the phrase "my black friends".

As for critical opinion, it is absolutely factual that there has been a great deal of critical acclaim for Lemonade. But I really side-eye that, and I 100% question whether those critics are popping that album in to listen to for pleasure in unobserved moments at home. I strongly suspect it is a kind of inoculation to heap high praise on her and a few other diverse artists, so they can also talk up their real favorites like Sturgill Simpson without taking a lot of heat, potentially even threatening their ability to earn a livelihood, for mainly being into white dudes.
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  #30  
Old 02-14-2017, 06:20 PM
Aeschines Aeschines is offline
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As for critical opinion, it is absolutely factual that there has been a great deal of critical acclaim for Lemonade. But I really side-eye that, and I 100% question whether those critics are popping that album in to listen to for pleasure in unobserved moments at home.
Indeed. Lemonade is just a nothing. I'm going to say the same shit over and over, but praise for it is praise for the concept of a thing and not the thing itself.

I will also say that I think Adele sucks. Not in the same way as Bey, mind you. Totally different. Adele is an imitation of a great singer without being great herself. She assumed the role without *quite* having the goods. So she belts and belts in that grande dame sort of way, but everyone kinda knows that it doesn't quite work. Whereas, someone like a Liz Phair (on her good albums) or a Janelle Monáe (on her good albums) is just natural and doing her own thing and it's real and good.

I thought Adele's "Hello" was such a piece of shit.

Just sayin'.

Last edited by Aeschines; 02-14-2017 at 06:21 PM..
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  #31  
Old 02-14-2017, 06:28 PM
Dendarii Dame Dendarii Dame is offline
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Originally Posted by Aeschines View Post

BTW, who gives a fuck about the Grammys? There is no there there and hasn't been for a long time.
From The Simpsons:

(After Homer's barbershop quartet has won a Grammy, he throws it out the hotel's window)

Squeaky-voiced teen picks it up from the gutter: A Grammy? Quit throwing your trash out the window!
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  #32  
Old 02-14-2017, 06:49 PM
EinsteinsHund EinsteinsHund is online now
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Only six human beings have ever won more Grammy Awards than Beyonce, plus a few (including Stevie Wonder and U2) are tied with her.
The fact that U2 won the same amount of Grammys as Stevie Wonder (I had no idea) should tell everybody what this piece of shit is worth...(though in a fair world, Stevie would get two Grammys revoked for I Just Called... and Ebony And Ivory. But maybe he even won for one of those, I wouldn't be surprised.)
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  #33  
Old 02-14-2017, 06:55 PM
Trancephalic Trancephalic is online now
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Well, she "could care less what you think."





So I guess that means she's devastated???
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  #34  
Old 02-14-2017, 06:57 PM
Ambivalid Ambivalid is online now
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Based on the subject matter of every single song I've ever heard from Adele, I think Beyoncé isnt the only person she obsesses over. Get over him already. Geez.
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  #35  
Old 02-14-2017, 07:49 PM
Periwinkle Periwinkle is offline
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I think Beyoncé is talented and beautiful, but I think the slavering worship is creepy. I especially don't understand why people lost their minds at the news of her pregnancies. I wish her well with that as I do anyone expecting a child, but other than that, it makes no difference to my life. I think it must just be a "thing" kind of like shouting out the latest catchphrase or playing Pokémon or whatever. People must bond over the Beyoncé worship, like she's a football team or something.

I can't comment much on Lemonade. I saw all the hoopla from HBO and tuned into it because as I said I do like some of Beyonce's songs. It lost my interest a few minutes in, and I never went back to it.
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  #36  
Old 02-14-2017, 08:11 PM
Flare4roach Flare4roach is offline
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On other hand, Beyonce's "Lemonade" was so critically acclaimed that Adele literally apologized on stage to Beyonce for winning Album of the Year. When the winner publicly acknowledges that she didn't deserve the award it may be indeed be the case. In essence its similar to when Macklemore when Best Rap Artist over Kendrick Lamar and when Jethro Tull won best Metal Artist over Metallica (but Jethro Tull didn't apologize, IIRC, in their acceptance speech).
I was far more disappointed with Jethro Tull robbing of the Grammy of "Nothing Shocking" from Jane's Addiction than any of that second-rate-Black-Sabbath-wannabe-double-bass-detuned-vocal-growling speed metal nonsense Metallica executed.

OF COURSE...Your milage may vary.

Last edited by Flare4roach; 02-14-2017 at 08:12 PM..
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  #37  
Old 02-14-2017, 08:24 PM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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Yeah, I too will take Jane's Addiction a million times over Metallica. (And I'll take Black Sabbath a hundred times over Metallica.)
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  #38  
Old 02-14-2017, 08:38 PM
lisiate lisiate is online now
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Beyoncé is the Steve Miller of today.
Or the Barbra Streisand?
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  #39  
Old 02-14-2017, 09:06 PM
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Beyoncé has sung some catchy and memorable songs. So has Katy Perry. Adele's Hello was probably the best song I have heard in several years. In every possible way she is a better singer than Beyoncé.

To be fair when Adele did her boot licking the camera panned over to Beyoncé, who looked uncomfortable and embarrassed. (Jay Z looked creeped out). I think even she thinks the adulation and worship are unwarranted.
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Old 02-14-2017, 09:38 PM
Yookeroo Yookeroo is offline
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I just started listening to Lemonade. I like it a lot. And I don't mind her pretensions. She aspires to do something inspirational, and I can't fault her for that. Especially since I'm not part of the group she's trying to inspire.

But, yeah, the deification is getting really weird and annoying.
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  #41  
Old 02-14-2017, 11:10 PM
ZipperJJ ZipperJJ is offline
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I think the deification is fine. The country is always looking for royalty to admire. The power couple of Beyoncé and Jay Z give us what we crave.

People are constantly raging about how the Kardashians are famous "for doing nothing." People shouldn't be equally as angry at Beyoncé for being famous for having decades of hard work behind her talent.
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  #42  
Old 02-15-2017, 01:33 AM
SlackerInc SlackerInc is offline
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I grant you, she is a higher grade of fake royalty than Kim K.
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  #43  
Old 02-15-2017, 02:36 AM
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I'm fine with people liking her that much, too. But turning this into some public angry controversy only makes it harder to get people to pay attention or not be dismissive when we're angry about actual important issues.

Even if it's just the media playing it up, I wish they wouldn't.

Last edited by BigT; 02-15-2017 at 02:37 AM..
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  #44  
Old 02-15-2017, 03:07 AM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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Originally Posted by ZipperJJ View Post
I think the deification is fine. The country is always looking for royalty to admire. The power couple of Beyoncé and Jay Z give us what we crave.

People are constantly raging about how the Kardashians are famous "for doing nothing." People shouldn't be equally as angry at Beyoncé for being famous for having decades of hard work behind her talent.
It's not "fine" when we care more about celebrity "royalty" (and typing that made me want to puke) than we do about who's running the country.
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  #45  
Old 02-15-2017, 05:14 AM
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It's not "fine" when we care more about celebrity "royalty" (and typing that made me want to puke) than we do about who's running the country.
Cast in that light, electing a celebrity to President seems rather efficient.
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  #46  
Old 02-15-2017, 05:36 AM
jz78817 jz78817 is offline
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Cast in that light, electing a celebrity to President seems rather efficient.
touche.
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  #47  
Old 02-15-2017, 06:25 AM
astorian astorian is online now
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I was far more disappointed with Jethro Tull robbing of the Grammy of "Nothing Shocking" from Jane's Addiction than any of that second-rate-Black-Sabbath-wannabe-double-bass-detuned-vocal-growling speed metal nonsense Metallica executed.

OF COURSE...Your milage may vary.
At the time, Ian Anderson pointed out "The award was not for Best Heavy Metal artist. It was for Best Hard Rock/Heavy Metal Artist. Are we heavy metal? Obviously not. Are we hard rock? Yes, in a pinch. The songs we're best known for are hard rock."

Which is true. You're free to dislike Tull, but the award wasn't as ridiculous as it's often made out to be.
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  #48  
Old 02-15-2017, 06:25 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
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I'll care about Beyonce's feels just as soon as she starts to care about the feelings of all the artists (dancers, visual artists, etc) she's plagiarized from over the years and passed off as "inspiration".
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  #49  
Old 02-15-2017, 06:34 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrDibble View Post
I'll care about Beyonce's feels just as soon as she starts to care about the feelings of all the artists (dancers, visual artists, etc) she's plagiarized from over the years and passed off as "inspiration".
Not a fan?
To be fair in music the line between the two is pretty fine.
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  #50  
Old 02-15-2017, 06:35 AM
aldiboronti aldiboronti is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2002
I think we're going to be seeing the race card played a lot in future awards shows. Is it sometimes justified? Yes. Is it more often a salve for a black artist's ego for not having won? Most definitely yes.

This rant by a black female journalist exemplifies the current Grammies race card. Ludicrously she claims that black women will never be seen as equal to whites, and this after just having mentioned Oprah Winfrey, arguably the most powerful woman in all media. None so blind.
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