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  #51  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:01 PM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Why is that uncool? The "other organization" has the option of changing so that its members are not tempted to leave. No organization has a claim to its members. Your statement implies that the members exist for the organization, not the other way around.
Because, for their entire existence, up until now, the basic premise that the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts had was that one was restricted to one gender, and the other to the other (yes, I know about the co-ed programs for older kids). They fundamentally didn't directly compete against each other for membership.

And, now, the Boy Scouts have decided that their solution to fixing their membership problems is to "steal share" from the Girl Scouts. Both organizations are facing a lot of the same problems, but instead of trying to work together with the Girl Scouts for the benefit of both organizations, the Boy Scouts seem to be willing to try to prosper at the Girl Scouts' expense.
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  #52  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:05 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
Because, for their entire existence, up until now, the basic premise that the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts had was that one was restricted to one gender, and the other to the other (yes, I know about the co-ed programs for older kids). They fundamentally didn't directly compete against each other for membership.
Things change. Are you proposing that things should never change?

Suppose the Catholic Church decided it would allow priests to marry, allow women to be priests and change it's stance on birth control and abortion. Would you object?

Quote:
And, now, the Boy Scouts have decided that their solution to fixing their membership problems is to "steal share" from the Girl Scouts. Both organizations are facing a lot of the same problems, but instead of trying to work together with the Girl Scouts for the benefit of both organizations, the Boy Scouts seem to be willing to try to prosper at the Girl Scouts' expense.
You can't steal something that doesn't belong to someone else. Or do you think that the GSA "owns" all the girls in the US?

Last edited by John Mace; 10-12-2017 at 12:06 PM.
  #53  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:09 PM
Doubticus Doubticus is offline
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I was listening to NPR this morning and they said that the individual troops could decide if they wanted to be single gender or co-ed. I don't have a problem with this although I hope they rebrand as just "Scouts" instead of "Boy Scouts".
  #54  
Old 10-12-2017, 12:15 PM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Things change. Are you proposing that things should never change?

Suppose the Catholic Church decided it would allow priests to marry, allow women to be priests and change it's stance on birth control and abortion. Would you object?
Apples and oranges. While those sorts of changes would be things that could help increase the RCC's relevance in North America and Europe, they wouldn't be specifically done with an eye to recruiting members away from another specific denomination.

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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
You can't steal something that doesn't belong to someone else. Or do you think that the GSA "owns" all the girls in the US?
Gee, thank you for putting words in my mouth. The BSA and the GSA have effectively had a tacit agreement for over a century: the BSA didn't recruit girls, and the GSA didn't recruit boys. Of all the things that the GSA had to worry about regarding keeping their membership numbers up, competition from the BSA wasn't on the list, until now.
  #55  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:21 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by kenobi 65 View Post
Apples and oranges. While those sorts of changes would be things that could help increase the RCC's relevance in North America and Europe, they wouldn't be specifically done with an eye to recruiting members away from another specific denomination.



Gee, thank you for putting words in my mouth. The BSA and the GSA have effectively had a tacit agreement for over a century: the BSA didn't recruit girls, and the GSA didn't recruit boys. Of all the things that the GSA had to worry about regarding keeping their membership numbers up, competition from the BSA wasn't on the list, until now.
Come back when you have a better argument than "things should not change". Because that's no argument at all.

And I didn't put any words in your mouth. You used the word "steal"-- I did not put that in your mouth.

Last edited by John Mace; 10-12-2017 at 01:22 PM.
  #56  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:49 PM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
Come back when you have a better argument than "things should not change". Because that's no argument at all.

And I didn't put any words in your mouth. You used the word "steal"-- I did not put that in your mouth.
I never said "things should not change," nor did I say (nor think) that the GSA somehow "owns" girls. I simply think that the BSA has decided that it's OK for them to attempt to survive at the GSA's expense. Maybe that's their only option, but it still doesn't make them look awesome.
  #57  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:00 PM
Crazy Canuck Crazy Canuck is offline
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I am a bit surprised that there is so much support on this board for an organization that openly discriminates against atheists.
  #58  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:50 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck View Post
I am a bit surprised that there is so much support on this board for an organization that openly discriminates against atheists.
Well this is the Boy Scout Oath:

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

Here is the Scout law:

A Scout is:

Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

Ours also says the outdoor creed:
As an American, I will do my best to -

Be clean in my outdoor manners
Be careful with fire
Be considerate in the outdoors, and
Be conservation minded.

The Scout motto is "Be Prepared".

I don't get what part of all this would be offensive to an atheist?
  #59  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:56 PM
Ludovic Ludovic is online now
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Seriously?
  #60  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:58 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by RivkahChaya View Post
I have to say, my GS program was lacking when I participated. I got all the badges we worked on as a troop, but there was no encouragement whatsoever to work on badges as individuals, and when I tried, and showed all the evidence to my troop leader, I never got the badges. I ended up writing a protest letter to the Council (going over their heads), and I got my badges, but made myself unpopular. They may have gotten reprimanded, when what they were doing was totally volunteer. Which was not my intent, but I was 10, and just wanted badges for my sash.
Just to let you know, basically the GS dropped merit badges and switched to this new program called "Journeys". The idea is girls would explore options that would incorporate things done on merit badges but in reality (ex. outdoors and nature would incorporate canoeing and camping), its a big workbook which girls have found boring and too much like school. BUT the GS spent millions on it so they have to stick with it.

Sad.
  #61  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:58 PM
steronz steronz is online now
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
I don't get what part of all this would be offensive to an atheist?
I was openly atheist among my friends but generally didn't talk about it much, so it never occurred to me that it was going to be an issue. But word must have made it to my Eagle review board, so right before they dismissed me they asked me point blank if I believed in a higher power. I was 17, they gave me the choice between lying to their faces or throwing away the previous 7 years of work. That's pretty offensive.

So, you know, good on them for the progress they've made, and I don't want to ruin the feminist party, but girls who don't believe in god still don't have a welcoming home in the BSA and that's not all right.
  #62  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:19 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Pixel_Dent View Post
The Girl Scouts run an excellent summer camp program. My daughter first went to a Girl Scout week long sleep away camp when she was in Kindergarten and continued to go for weeks every summer until she joined the staff of one as a counselor. She paid for many of her weeks at these camps with the money she earned from cookie sales. They included all the standard summer camp things you think of like boating, archery, horseback riding etc.. Many include programs which take the girls away from the camps for more strenuous adventures. For my daughter that included a week long self-supported hiking / camping trip on the Appalachian Trail and another trip which was a week of white water rafting & camping. Cookie sales and fundraising keep these camps affordable to girls of all income levels. Because the Boy Scouts in the states we've lived in offer nothing similar it costs us roughly five times the price for my son to have similar experiences as it did for my daughter.
.
On GS camps:

Summer camps. Around here and nationwide the GS sold off many camps
which angered many supporters. Including flagship "Eagle Island" off of New York. Why did they do it when the GS camps are some of their best programs? Money. You see years ago the GS executives gave themselves these BIGTIME salary and benefits packages without consideration about how to fund them (see above article for information).

Now the girl scout troops rent out boy scout camps!

Which makes it worse because they find the BS camps to be in many ways better because they have more robust activities than GS camps.

Also you mention doing some high adventure. Boy Scouts has many high adventure bases such as Swamp base, Minnesota Northern Tier, and Philmont. none of which GS has.
  #63  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:34 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
Well this is the Boy Scout Oath:

On my honor, I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong, mentally awake and morally straight.

Here is the Scout law:

A Scout is:

Trustworthy,
Loyal,
Helpful,
Friendly,
Courteous,
Kind,
Obedient,
Cheerful,
Thrifty,
Brave,
Clean,
and Reverent.

Ours also says the outdoor creed:
As an American, I will do my best to -

Be clean in my outdoor manners
Be careful with fire
Be considerate in the outdoors, and
Be conservation minded.

The Scout motto is "Be Prepared".

I don't get what part of all this would be offensive to an atheist?
So you ask an atheist to swear an oath to do his duty to God. And said atheist replies "Uh, who does what to whom, now?" And -- what happens next?

Does he get asked a follow-up question, about reverence? What?
  #64  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:34 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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I'd like to also mention GS cookies.

Now this is also a point, their is a major fundamental difference between GS and BS. You see GS sells cookies for fundraising and that's pretty much it. Whiler a BS troop is free to do any and all kinds of fundraising which can include selling stuff like popcorn but also other funding events like work days (our boys made $600 one day by working at an event) or selling things like Christmas trees.

AND, when their is a fundraiser, its the boys who benefit who actually WORK. You see with GS cookies, a box of cookies sells for about $4. Fifty cents of that goes back to the troop and it doesn't matter if your daughter sells 20 boxes or 200 boxes, all the money goes back to the troop and the girls decide together how to spend it. Again, doesn't matter how many each sells.

And a BIG kicker, look at what top GS sellers earn. For cookies they earn little pins or tiny teddy bears. For BS selling popcorn they earn really cool prizes like camping equipment(ex. tents and backpacks). Our troop also offer additional prizes like lanterns and fishing poles.
  #65  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:47 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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My daughter is a senior in high school and still a Girl Scout. I agree with a lot of what has been said here - its a different organization that brings different things. Not all volunteers are big on camping - if you become a Boy Scout leader, you know you are going to be camping - Girl Scout leaders can focus their troops around different things - and the girls themselves aren't necessarily interested in camping.

One thing Girl Scouts needs to do better is organize troops by interest rather than location after elementary school.

Both organizations have a huge drop off in participation in middle school. My nephews both dropped at that age. My son wasn't a Boy Scout, but none of his friends were by fifth grade either.

The Gold Award is harder to get, and it is less recognized. We didn't bother for both those reasons. And it is the sustainable part of it that makes it difficult to do. You'd have a lot more Gold Awards if you could paint a nonprofit or build a park bench. Those are Bronze Award projects - projects done by sixth graders - not projects done by high school girls. I think you could still get away with a park bench for your Silver.

Families seem to be much less involved in Girl Scouts. And that creates volunteering problems of its own....there is only so much two women who work full time can get done with twelve six year olds and a bunch of parents who think that Girl Scouts is dropping their daughters off while they run to the grocery store.

Camps have been being sold off in our council because they don't have enough campers to fill all the camp properties. That's true for Scouting and also YMCA camps and other camps across the country. Sending your kid to camp is becoming less common. My daughter still spent three weeks as a junior counselor (CIT) at camp this Summer though.
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  #66  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:54 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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My daughter is a senior in high school and still a Girl Scout. I agree with a lot of what has been said here - its a different organization that brings different things. Not all volunteers are big on camping - if you become a Boy Scout leader, you know you are going to be camping - Girl Scout leaders can focus their troops around different things - and the girls themselves aren't necessarily interested in camping.

One thing Girl Scouts needs to do better is organize troops by interest rather than location after elementary school.

Both organizations have a huge drop off in participation in middle school. My nephews both dropped at that age. My son wasn't a Boy Scout, but none of his friends were by fifth grade either.

The Gold Award is harder to get, and it is less recognized. We didn't bother for both those reasons. And it is the sustainable part of it that makes it difficult to do. You'd have a lot more Gold Awards if you could paint a nonprofit or build a park bench. Those are Bronze Award projects - projects done by sixth graders - not projects done by high school girls. I think you could still get away with a park bench for your Silver.

Families seem to be much less involved in Girl Scouts. And that creates volunteering problems of its own....there is only so much two women who work full time can get done with twelve six year olds and a bunch of parents who think that Girl Scouts is dropping their daughters off while they run to the grocery store.

Camps have been being sold off in our council because they don't have enough campers to fill all the camp properties. That's true for Scouting and also YMCA camps and other camps across the country. Sending your kid to camp is becoming less common. My daughter still spent three weeks as a junior counselor (CIT) at camp this Summer though.

As for combining groups, I sort of hope it happens, but there is some Liberal/Conservative divide. Girl Scouts have been letting trans girls join for years. They made God optional long ago. They don't care about anyone's sexuality, as long as you can pass a background check to work with kids. But Girl Scouts is also likely to die off over the next several decades if they don't combine.
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  #67  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:08 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
So you ask an atheist to swear an oath to do his duty to God. And said atheist replies "Uh, who does what to whom, now?" And -- what happens next?

Does he get asked a follow-up question, about reverence? What?
It depends again upon the troop. BS troops are usually organized by churches and a fundamentalist church might seriously require one to be a Christian. Another for example, one run by a Jewish synagogue, might require one to be a Jew. But for others it might not be so important.

But yes, there is a strong religious element to Boy Scouts and if you disagree, there are other groups.
  #68  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:29 PM
steronz steronz is online now
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It depends again upon the troop. BS troops are usually organized by churches and a fundamentalist church might seriously require one to be a Christian. Another for example, one run by a Jewish synagogue, might require one to be a Jew.
That's definitely not how it works, and that'd be a violation of their charter.
  #69  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:38 PM
Crazy Canuck Crazy Canuck is offline
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But yes, there is a strong religious element to Boy Scouts and if you disagree, there are other groups.
I do disagree. I disagree to the point when I see a bunch of people on a mostly non-religious message board praising the group, I point out that this group discriminates against atheists and ask why they are praising this shitty organization.
  #70  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:48 PM
robby robby is offline
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
I was openly atheist among my friends but generally didn't talk about it much, so it never occurred to me that it was going to be an issue. But word must have made it to my Eagle review board, so right before they dismissed me they asked me point blank if I believed in a higher power. I was 17, they gave me the choice between lying to their faces or throwing away the previous 7 years of work. That's pretty offensive.

So, you know, good on them for the progress they've made, and I don't want to ruin the feminist party, but girls who don't believe in god still don't have a welcoming home in the BSA and that's not all right.
I certainly don't speak for the national organization, but will say that I agree with you on this. I understand that BSA is a private organization and can make whatever rules it wants, but I personally don't agree with the requirement that a Scout must believe in God or a "higher power." I'm hopeful that this policy will change at some point in the future, similar to how the policy on gays has changed.

For what it's worth, while BSA's "Declaration of Religious Principle" requires "an obligation to God," it is also "absolutely nonsectarian." BSA guidelines state that:
  1. The Boy Scouts of America does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion.
  2. The Boy Scouts of America does not require membership in a religious organization or association...
  3. The Boy Scouts of America respects the convictions of those who exercise their constitutional freedom to practice religion as individuals without formal membership in organized religious organizations. In a few cases, there are those who, by conviction, do not feel it necessary to formally belong to an organized form of religion and seek to practice religion in accordance with their own personal convictions. Religious organizations have commended the Boy Scouts of America for encouraging youth to participate in organized religious activities. However, these same organizations reject any form of compulsion to enforce conformity to established religious practices.
  4. ...Throughout life, Scouts are associated with people of different faiths. Scouting believes in religious freedom, respecting others whose religion may differ from theirs, and in the right of all to worship God in their own way.

These statements open the door fairly wide to an individual's own interpretation of what actually constitutes religious belief. In practice, at least in my experience in a number of troops and councils around the nation, no one is conducting an inquisition into whether or not a Scout actually and truly believes in God. At most, there might be a single question at a review board, and you are free to interpret the question however you like.

For example, steronz, you say you were asked in your Eagle review board if you "believed in a higher power." Do you believe in yourself? If so, there's your answer.
  #71  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:52 PM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck View Post
I do disagree. I disagree to the point when I see a bunch of people on a mostly non-religious message board praising the group, I point out that this group discriminates against atheists and ask why they are praising this shitty organization.
Well that's fine and I respect that but to me, if I don't like a group, I don't try and change it, I would start or join another. For example Spiral Scouts.
  #72  
Old 10-12-2017, 05:30 PM
robby robby is offline
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Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck View Post
I am a bit surprised that there is so much support on this board for an organization that openly discriminates against atheists.
I disagreed with BSA on its former policy against gays, and disagree with its current policy against atheists. However, I made the decision a long time ago that the good aspects of the organization outweighed these bad aspects, and that I would work to change these policies from within the organization instead simply protesting from the outside. And there are a lot of good aspects to BSA, IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
So you ask an atheist to swear an oath to do his duty to God. And said atheist replies "Uh, who does what to whom, now?" And -- what happens next?

Does he get asked a follow-up question, about reverence? What?
My opinion is that an atheist is free to interpret "God" however he likes. Also, including a reference to "God" in the Boy Scout Oath is no different than the "God" that appears in the Pledge of Allegiance or a courtroom oath. One is also free to simply consider it to be ceremonial deism (i.e. "nominally religious statements and practices deemed to be merely ritual and non-religious through long customary usage.")

As for the point in the Scout Law that a "Scout is reverent", one is free to interpret that as indicating that a Scout should respect the rights of others to practice their own religion, and to not denigrate their beliefs or religious practices.

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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
It depends again upon the troop. BS troops are usually organized by churches and a fundamentalist church might seriously require one to be a Christian. Another for example, one run by a Jewish synagogue, might require one to be a Jew. But for others it might not be so important.

But yes, there is a strong religious element to Boy Scouts and if you disagree, there are other groups.
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Originally Posted by steronz View Post
That's definitely not how it works, and that'd be a violation of their charter.
Agree. Urbanredneck, that is a completely false statement. No Scout troop may require membership in any particular church or religion. It would absolutely be a violation of their charter.

For example, the troop I am associated with is sponsored by a Protestant church, whereas my family is nominally Catholic. We also have Scouts in the troop who are Mormon, Jewish, and Buddhist. Many Scouts in the troop aren't a member of any organized church or religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck View Post
I do disagree. I disagree to the point when I see a bunch of people on a mostly non-religious message board praising the group, I point out that this group discriminates against atheists and ask why they are praising this shitty organization.
Despite this misguided policy against atheists (which hopefully will eventually be revised or dropped entirely), it's not a shitty organization. It does a lot of good things for the community and for its youth members.
  #73  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:52 PM
asterion asterion is online now
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Originally Posted by Crazy Canuck View Post
I do disagree. I disagree to the point when I see a bunch of people on a mostly non-religious message board praising the group, I point out that this group discriminates against atheists and ask why they are praising this shitty organization.
Because a lot of us who have been/are currently involved know that it's always really the local organization that matters. The people running National can say whatever they want but the locals don't have to pay any attention to them. Same if some Mormons in Utah get pissed off due to a change. If you're in a troop in Pennsylvania, say, what do you care if a bunch of people 2,000 miles away decide to take their ball and go home?

Worst thing that ever happened to BSA was LDS trying to take it over as a youth program.
  #74  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:20 PM
Chronos Chronos is online now
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I've seen enough openly atheist troop chaplains in my day that I can't really care what they officially say about religion.

About Eagle vs. Gold, I don't know much about Gold, but Eagle requires a lot more than just the service project. You also need at least 21 merit badges, including all of the 13 that are considered essential, and which represent a fairly well-rounded set of skills. And you need to be getting them at a steady pace throughout your time in scouts, because there are minimum time requirements in each rank, and the lower ranks require merit badges, too.
  #75  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:20 PM
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Camps have been being sold off in our council because they don't have enough campers to fill all the camp properties. That's true for Scouting and also YMCA camps and other camps across the country. Sending your kid to camp is becoming less common. My daughter still spent three weeks as a junior counselor (CIT) at camp this Summer though.
That's an interesting observation. Why?

Last edited by installLSC; 10-12-2017 at 09:20 PM. Reason: punctuation
  #76  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:52 PM
Chronos Chronos is online now
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I don't think it's that "camps" are becoming less popular, but that overnight camps are losing ground to day camps.
  #77  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Happy Lendervedder View Post
My only experience with either of the Scout organizations is minimal. (My nephew is an Eagle Scout and my son went to one Cub Scout meeting last year to see if he wanted to do it; he didn't.)

That being said, I feel like a good solution to this would be to have the two organizations merge, combine the positives of both organizations, and call it "Scouts of America." Let the troops decide if they want to be co-ed or same sex, and parents (and kids) could decide where they'd like to be. This would let girls become Eagle Scouts, and if the Gold Award is more rigorous and meaningful, change the requirements for Eagle to be more like the Gold Award.

Keep the cookies, keep the camping, have all the badges be available to everyone, have national same-sex events (because that's still important) and a national co-ed jamboree or whatever, etc.

Is this possible, or is my relative ignorance of the two organizations showing?
Agreed.. pretty much exactly what I was going to post. It seems to me both groups would probably save a lot of time, money, and effort joining forces in the areas where they already do the same thing, and benefit from the additional activities available when they don't already have the same available.
  #78  
Old 10-13-2017, 02:43 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
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Originally Posted by TheOtherHalfian View Post
Lord Baden-Powell himself created the Boy Scouts ot be a boy led activity
Baden-Powell also thought Mein Kampf was "A wonderful book, with good ideas on education, health, propaganda, organisation etc.” and wanted Scouting to have closer ties with the Hitlerjugend.

Let's just say he wasn't exactly always right and leave it at that, yeah?

Last edited by MrDibble; 10-13-2017 at 02:47 AM.
  #79  
Old 10-13-2017, 03:20 AM
kenobi 65 kenobi 65 is online now
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I don't think it's that "camps" are becoming less popular, but that overnight camps are losing ground to day camps.
And, from what I see with the kids of my friends, if they go off to camp in the summer, it's more likely to be a sport-specific camp, or a music camp, rather than a general / traditional "outdoors" camp.
  #80  
Old 10-13-2017, 04:44 AM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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Originally Posted by The Other Waldo Pepper View Post
So you ask an atheist to swear an oath to do his duty to God. And said atheist replies "Uh, who does what to whom, now?" And -- what happens next?

Does he get asked a follow-up question, about reverence? What?
It depends again upon the troop. BS troops are usually organized by churches and a fundamentalist church might seriously require one to be a Christian. Another for example, one run by a Jewish synagogue, might require one to be a Jew. But for others it might not be so important.

But yes, there is a strong religious element to Boy Scouts and if you disagree, there are other groups.
You're changing the subject.

You quoted the Boy Scout oath and said "I don't get what part of all this would be offensive to an atheist?" And now, when quoting my reply, you say there's a religious element to Boy Scouts and there are other groups for those who disagree. Which is, of course, the whole point: that is "the part of all this" in question, where they're told this group isn't for them if they're not Swear An Oath To God types.

If you already knew they aren't welcome in said group, why'd you ask?
  #81  
Old 10-13-2017, 08:05 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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That's an interesting observation. Why?
For Girl Scouts, parents seem less interested in sending their daughters away to sleep away camp at the age where Girl Scout camping becomes a habit. The girls who are still camping as middle and high schoolers are the ones that started camping in second and third grade. Many of a council's properties are far enough out to not be practical for day camp - and those are the ones that have been sold off, while the ones in our councils suburbs - within an hour - stay. I know a lot of parents who didn't think that their girls were ready for a week - or even three days - away from home where they couldn't come pick them up if they had a slight problem - until it was far too late to establish a camp habit. Its part of the helicopter/hands on parenting style that is prevalent in the middle class.

Of my seven girls who had me as a leader, my daughter was the only one who really enjoyed camp. The girls often don't like the bugs and the dirt. I had one girl who was horse mad until she spent a week at a girl scout horse camp - where they make you shovel poop. That cured her of her of any desire to have anything to do with a horse. (My daughter, with minimal interest in horses, went swimming with the horses last year as part of her Counseler in Training experience - she also rides really well).

That not liking dirt isn't unique to girls, my son did one week at a Y camp, enjoyed it, but never wanted to go back. Dirt, lack of air conditioning, and - probably most importantly - NO XBOX - made him think staying home is a better plan. I thought when he got off the bus he might go back, but by the next summer, he had other ideas.

And sleep away camp - through Girl Scouts or the Y or Boy Scouts - is still sort of expensive - it isn't that much compared to a lot of kid activities, but families only have so much money for kid activities - and if that money is going to dance or football or hockey, it isn't there for camp. Girl Scout camp, because of that cookie money, can be fairly cheap (I sent my daughter off for three weeks last year for $400, but she was also a junior counselor, so she was "working" and I was paying for the privilege). (With Boy Scouts the boys get much of their money from fundraising in individual accounts which pays for camp....with Girl Scouts, council gets the majority of money from cookies - the primary but not only fundraising activity - which means you can send girls to camp for $400 for three weeks - but the girls who don't go to camp don't get the benefit).

Because camping is a central activity for BSA and a optional activity for GSA, BSA is more likely to have family camps and troop camps which ease you into camping - eventually you like camping, not hanging out with your mom/dad/friends in the woods. My girls never wanted to spend their hard earned cookie money camping (we did two weekends because I pushed it - and subsidized it out of my pocket and not cookie money), so a lot of girls don't have the support of people they know when they show up to camp. My girls spent their cookie money on garden supplies for a memory loss home - we planted flowers, bought mulch - they never did Build A Bear instead of camping - it was a very responsible choice, just not one that took them camping. . (They did spend cookie money bowling - and managed to save enough that we went to Savannah Georgia to see the Juliet Gordon Low house when they were headed to high school and I was going to loose them. The rest of the cookie money went to the American Cancer Society).

The range of camps available has also expanded, and many of them offer "more" to type A parents then the outdoorsy traditional Scout/Y camp. Robotics camp, law camp, theatre camp, hockey camp, soccer camp, band camp.....those are the things that are going to develop the skills your kid needs to land a scholarship - Eagle Scout or Gold Award is nice - but that can be done without a week at camp. Learning to pitch from a college coach in middle school is seen as more valuable. And there is always Bible camp for those so inclined.
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:33 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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I'll also note that both Scouting organizations have fundraising issues......People really don't like to buy overpriced cookies or Christmas wreaths so middle class boys can spend time in the woods and middle class girls can go to Build a Bear. And kids are expected to do so much fundraising - for school, for church, for sports - that the well is dried out on a lot of that. Corporations aren't thrilled about grants to middle class kids so they can go learn archery or canoeing - they'd rather see disadvantaged kids get into the woods - and other organizations are having better success getting disadvantaged kids into the woods than Scouts - because they can use the grant dollars to target specifically those kids without a commitment to the organization (Wilderness Inquiry in the Twin Cities does a lot of that).
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Old 10-13-2017, 08:33 AM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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As I said earlier, I really enjoyed my time in The Boy Scouts. But a lot of that had to do with the camping aspect. Had that not been a regular part of the activities, I doubt I would have stayed in. Camping is something I enjoyed as a scout, and continued to do, fairly regularly, throughout my life.
  #84  
Old 10-13-2017, 08:43 AM
MrDibble MrDibble is offline
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Originally Posted by Dangerosa View Post
People really don't like to buy overpriced cookies
This contradicts everything the season threads on Dope has led me to believe about these GS cookies...
I believe the word "inhale" was used more than once.

Last edited by MrDibble; 10-13-2017 at 08:43 AM.
  #85  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:05 AM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by robby View Post

Agree. Urbanredneck, that is a completely false statement. No Scout troop may require membership in any particular church or religion. It would absolutely be a violation of their charter.

For example, the troop I am associated with is sponsored by a Protestant church, whereas my family is nominally Catholic. We also have Scouts in the troop who are Mormon, Jewish, and Buddhist. Many Scouts in the troop aren't a member of any organized church or religion.

Despite this misguided policy against atheists (which hopefully will eventually be revised or dropped entirely), it's not a shitty organization. It does a lot of good things for the community and for its youth members.
Thanks for sticking with Boy Scouts despite your differences. When it gets down to it, no group is perfect.

Well ok your right, they cannot exclude boy based on religion. BUT, they can enforce rules. For example a Jewish group may only eat kosher. A Mennonite group might have rules against swearing.

HERE is there pamphlet on the issue. It shows many religious emblems and mentions many others including Sikh, Unitarian, Buddhist, and more I've never even heard of.
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Old 10-13-2017, 09:09 AM
Really Not All That Bright Really Not All That Bright is offline
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The pamphlet doesn't say anything about enforcing religious rules.
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Old 10-13-2017, 09:18 AM
Urbanredneck Urbanredneck is offline
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Originally Posted by Dangerosa View Post
For Girl Scouts, parents seem less interested in sending their daughters away to sleep away camp at the age where Girl Scout camping becomes a habit. The girls who are still camping as middle and high schoolers are the ones that started camping in second and third grade. Many of a council's properties are far enough out to not be practical for day camp - and those are the ones that have been sold off, while the ones in our councils suburbs - within an hour - stay. I know a lot of parents who didn't think that their girls were ready for a week - or even three days - away from home where they couldn't come pick them up if they had a slight problem - until it was far too late to establish a camp habit. Its part of the helicopter/hands on parenting style that is prevalent in the middle class.

Of my seven girls who had me as a leader, my daughter was the only one who really enjoyed camp. The girls often don't like the bugs and the dirt. I had one girl who was horse mad until she spent a week at a girl scout horse camp - where they make you shovel poop. That cured her of her of any desire to have anything to do with a horse. (My daughter, with minimal interest in horses, went swimming with the horses last year as part of her Counseler in Training experience - she also rides really well).

That not liking dirt isn't unique to girls, my son did one week at a Y camp, enjoyed it, but never wanted to go back. Dirt, lack of air conditioning, and - probably most importantly - NO XBOX - made him think staying home is a better plan. I thought when he got off the bus he might go back, but by the next summer, he had other ideas.

And sleep away camp - through Girl Scouts or the Y or Boy Scouts - is still sort of expensive - it isn't that much compared to a lot of kid activities, but families only have so much money for kid activities - and if that money is going to dance or football or hockey, it isn't there for camp. Girl Scout camp, because of that cookie money, can be fairly cheap (I sent my daughter off for three weeks last year for $400, but she was also a junior counselor, so she was "working" and I was paying for the privilege). (With Boy Scouts the boys get much of their money from fundraising in individual accounts which pays for camp....with Girl Scouts, council gets the majority of money from cookies - the primary but not only fundraising activity - which means you can send girls to camp for $400 for three weeks - but the girls who don't go to camp don't get the benefit).

Because camping is a central activity for BSA and a optional activity for GSA, BSA is more likely to have family camps and troop camps which ease you into camping - eventually you like camping, not hanging out with your mom/dad/friends in the woods. My girls never wanted to spend their hard earned cookie money camping (we did two weekends because I pushed it - and subsidized it out of my pocket and not cookie money), so a lot of girls don't have the support of people they know when they show up to camp. My girls spent their cookie money on garden supplies for a memory loss home - we planted flowers, bought mulch - they never did Build A Bear instead of camping - it was a very responsible choice, just not one that took them camping. . (They did spend cookie money bowling - and managed to save enough that we went to Savannah Georgia to see the Juliet Gordon Low house when they were headed to high school and I was going to loose them. The rest of the cookie money went to the American Cancer Society).

The range of camps available has also expanded, and many of them offer "more" to type A parents then the outdoorsy traditional Scout/Y camp. Robotics camp, law camp, theatre camp, hockey camp, soccer camp, band camp.....those are the things that are going to develop the skills your kid needs to land a scholarship - Eagle Scout or Gold Award is nice - but that can be done without a week at camp. Learning to pitch from a college coach in middle school is seen as more valuable. And there is always Bible camp for those so inclined.
One problem around here in the Kansas City area was many GS camps were not so far out so as the city limits grew, it surrounded them and 1. the land became VERY valuable and 2. when it became within a city limits they had to upgrade facilities to meet more stringent codes. For example no more outdoor latrines. So hence, they were sold off.

Now why the heck they don't use the money to buy another camp further out is beyond me! But then, they would rather the money go into the fund for salaries and benefits. Check out this article and the reasons they sold off some popular GS camps. In that article" "According to the lawsuit filed by Friends of Eagle Island, GSHONJ CEO Susan Brooks defended the sale by saying, I have pensions to pay.

Please read the rest of the article.

Here in Kansas City the remaining GS camps are very popular and are basically sold out so they often rent out the BS camps.
  #88  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:43 AM
Pixel_Dent Pixel_Dent is online now
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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
with GS cookies, a box of cookies sells for about $4. Fifty cents of that goes back to the troop and it doesn't matter if your daughter sells 20 boxes or 200 boxes, all the money goes back to the troop and the girls decide together how to spend it.
This is incorrect. Girls earn "cookie dough" which is money that can be spent on pretty much anything girl scout related including camps and trips. This is on top of any other money their troop earns.

As for the rest I'm going to have to assume that it must vary greatly from council to council. In our area the troop receives back almost $1 per box. My daughter's troop actually keeps track of the boxes each girl sells and sets up an account for each girl with money earned from their sales that they can spend on troop trips. Some of the trips they've spent that money on are camping trips including one to the Appalachians and one to the Outer Banks of NC to see the wild horses. They've also spent it on a trip to NYC to see the museums and a musical because that's what the girls voted to do.


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Originally Posted by Urbanredneck View Post
And a BIG kicker, look at what top GS sellers earn. For cookies they earn little pins or tiny teddy bears.
This is also incorrect. They do earn badges but that's not all they earn. In addition to the "cookie dough" mentioned above they earn all sorts of swag. Some of it is silly stuff like stuffed animals but my daughter has also earned things like outdoor wear, a tent we use for family camping, an eno hammock, and a trip to the National Whitewater Center where she went rafting, and a trip to a high ropes course.
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Old 10-13-2017, 09:46 AM
Pixel_Dent Pixel_Dent is online now
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It's sad that in many areas the Girl Scouts are selling their camps. Luckily in the two states we lived in while my daughter was in scouts they not only didn't sell any but purchased a new camp. I guess we were lucky.

It seems like in general we had a much better scouting experience that many other dopers. I wish everyone had the opportunities my daughter had in troops which were run as well.

Last edited by Pixel_Dent; 10-13-2017 at 09:47 AM.
  #90  
Old 10-13-2017, 10:42 AM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Now why the heck they don't use the money to buy another camp further out is beyond me! But then, they would rather the money go into the fund for salaries and benefits. Check out this article and the reasons they sold off some popular GS camps. In that article" "According to the lawsuit filed by Friends of Eagle Island, GSHONJ CEO Susan Brooks defended the sale by saying, I have pensions to pay.
Did they need the camps? Were the camps at capacity? We had similar issues and articles up here - the camps weren't at capacity, they needed far fewer of them. So they sold one that was way out, and one that was close in that could be developed. The one they sold close in that could be developed a lot of people were up in arms about - it was their childhood memories, and it makes sense. But it didn't offer what the other camp locations in this area could offer (it was a prairie camp - other camp locations have woods and prairie and lakeshore - this had just prairie and a swimming pool)

And yes, they have to pay pensions. If they contracted to pay pensions, those are an obligation. They might have to shut down the program to do it, but you can't stiff someone out of their pension. Not ethically. When Scouting was bigger, there was more money coming in - and the time was more innocent as well - less insurance costs, less expectations on what the program would provide - so a bigger staff with better benefits. When the economics change, you have to change.
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Old 10-13-2017, 11:26 AM
nelliebly nelliebly is online now
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I think one thing that's important to understand is that each Girl Scout troop designs their own programs and the troops my daughter has been involved with both as a scout and as a leader vary far more than similar Boy Scout troops I'm familiar with through my son. There's one that focuses on camping, another which is more social and craft focused, and another which exists solely to facilitate the girls going on international travel together.

It's a shame that some girls didn't find what they were looking for in the Girl Scouts, but the organization as a whole makes a myriad of incredible opportunities available to girls.
But it doesn't. You're assuming that if a girl is more interested in camping, for instance, she can simply join a troop that's interested in camping. That may be possible in some urban areas, but in the places I've lived, the troops are too far apart geographically to make that practical--and that's assuming all the troops in the area aren't the ones focused on "social and craft-oriented." GSA doesn't determine what troops focus on, the individual troop leaders do. GSA does not make a "myriad of incredible opportunities available to girls." It's the luck of the draw.

Also, I believe girls should be introduced to a variety of experiences through the Scouts. I can't imagine a Boy Scout troop focusing solely on "social and craft-oriented" projects just because the troop leader likes those things.
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:43 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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But it doesn't. You're assuming that if a girl is more interested in camping, for instance, she can simply join a troop that's interested in camping. That may be possible in some urban areas, but in the places I've lived, the troops are too far apart geographically to make that practical--and that's assuming all the troops in the area aren't the ones focused on "social and craft-oriented." GSA doesn't determine what troops focus on, the individual troop leaders do. GSA does not make a "myriad of incredible opportunities available to girls." It's the luck of the draw.

Also, I believe girls should be introduced to a variety of experiences through the Scouts. I can't imagine a Boy Scout troop focusing solely on "social and craft-oriented" projects just because the troop leader likes those things.
The issue is the leaders. If your daughter is interested in camping, its sort of up to you if there isn't another leader who wants to camp to make it happen. Or, if you are close enough, you can use council resources - weekend camps that are just girls or girls and a parent - not troop camps. My coleader was CPAP dependent, so camping involved electricity - and none of the other parents were interested in taking the girls camping. My daughter found that limiting, so joined programs outside of the troop through Scouts where she had more rustic experiences.

Girl Scout leaders are volunteers, and yeah, it would be great if more moms (the majority are mothers of the girls - there are exceptions) would step up to provide a wider variety of experiences. But you can't make leaders take the girls camping - or do social action projects - or do crafty things - its hard enough to get the leaders to volunteer to share their own interests. It used to drive me nuts when the girl's mothers would say "you should....." and then I'd say "great, why don't you pull that together" and .... crickets.....or "I don't have time," "that's why I'm not the leader."

Our council has a bunch of women whose girls are all adults now (I may join them soon) who do a three day tent camp with a few hundred middle school girls - giving the girls a chance to cook outside and pitch a tent. The high school girls are the leaders in this exercise. But they, too, are volunteers who have stepped in to fill a gap that a lot of troops don't provide.
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:32 PM
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I was a Brownie and that was fun, but then when I got to GS age, I didn't wanna just sell cookies, so I dropped out. Don't get me wrong; I love the cookies. But I wanted to go camping and hiking and ended up doing a lot of that with my dad and can totally hold my own with an Eagle Scout. :: cool ::

Years later, in high school, I was an Explorer -- the post was at our city newspaper, one of the places where I learned to be a little Lois Lane. I was very proud of my "you are a member of BSA" membership card as a girl.

If the GS were still doing camping and hiking/survival sorts of activities like they did a long time ago, then I'd say there's no need for a co-ed scouting group. From this thread, I've learned that the GS have devolved into nothing more than a cookie empire. In that case, I think both BSA and GSA should be disbanded and just have "Scouts." Why does it have to be gendered?
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Old 10-13-2017, 01:50 PM
The Other Waldo Pepper The Other Waldo Pepper is online now
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I was a Brownie and that was fun, but then when I got to GS age, I didn't wanna just sell cookies, so I dropped out. Don't get me wrong; I love the cookies. But I wanted to go camping and hiking and ended up doing a lot of that with my dad and can totally hold my own with an Eagle Scout. :: cool ::

Years later, in high school, I was an Explorer -- the post was at our city newspaper, one of the places where I learned to be a little Lois Lane. I was very proud of my "you are a member of BSA" membership card as a girl.

If the GS were still doing camping and hiking/survival sorts of activities like they did a long time ago, then I'd say there's no need for a co-ed scouting group. From this thread, I've learned that the GS have devolved into nothing more than a cookie empire. In that case, I think both BSA and GSA should be disbanded and just have "Scouts." Why does it have to be gendered?
My daughter's GS troop hikes and camps out, and also does volunteerism/charity stuff as well as government/civics stuff. My takeaway from this thread is, GS troops sound like they vary a ton from place to place.
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:12 PM
Dogzilla Dogzilla is offline
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My daughter's GS troop hikes and camps out, and also does volunteerism/charity stuff as well as government/civics stuff. My takeaway from this thread is, GS troops sound like they vary a ton from place to place.
And I'm sure that has a lot to do with the troop leaders and what their interests are and their individual effort levels as well.

I remember hearing a show on NPR many years ago, where some GSA rep was saying they were looking for young-ish, single, professional women to recruit as troop leaders. They wanted single women because presumably, single women have more time to devote to that sort of thing. I considered volunteering for a while and then remembered that I don't really like kids that much and I'd end up committing myself and then hating it and counting the days until the damn cookie sale was over.

At this point, if I had children, it sounds like special-interest private/day camps would be the way to go.
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:43 PM
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The issue is the leaders. If your daughter is interested in camping, its sort of up to you if there isn't another leader who wants to camp to make it happen. Or, if you are close enough, you can use council resources - weekend camps that are just girls or girls and a parent - not troop camps. My coleader was CPAP dependent, so camping involved electricity - and none of the other parents were interested in taking the girls camping. My daughter found that limiting, so joined programs outside of the troop through Scouts where she had more rustic experiences.

Girl Scout leaders are volunteers, and yeah, it would be great if more moms (the majority are mothers of the girls - there are exceptions) would step up to provide a wider variety of experiences. But you can't make leaders take the girls camping - or do social action projects - or do crafty things - its hard enough to get the leaders to volunteer to share their own interests. It used to drive me nuts when the girl's mothers would say "you should....." and then I'd say "great, why don't you pull that together" and .... crickets.....or "I don't have time," "that's why I'm not the leader."

Our council has a bunch of women whose girls are all adults now (I may join them soon) who do a three day tent camp with a few hundred middle school girls - giving the girls a chance to cook outside and pitch a tent. The high school girls are the leaders in this exercise. But they, too, are volunteers who have stepped in to fill a gap that a lot of troops don't provide.
And that's my point. I've never heard of a boy having to poke around for a Boy Scout troop or some other organization to find leaders who meet his interests, and they're all volunteers, too. Don't get me wrong: I appreciate GS leaders for volunteering. I'm simply saying girls shouldn't have to shop around, since boys don't. And yes, I took my daughter camping, but camping with the family is far different than camping out with a group, and not everyone has access to alternative groups. I assume when they do, they leave, and then the Scouts have lower numbers. Whatever the BSA rationale is for allowing girls to join, it's the fact girls are asking to do so that should concern GSA: what needs are not being met that the BSA are meeting, and how can those needs be addressed?
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:51 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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Years ago I was a Girl Scout - it was the 1970s. I was a Brownie and a Junior - and done by middle school (we moved a lot)

We did a troop camping experience and day camp. The troop camp was a big camping experience in a big troop house. Day camp was smores and a few hikes, but mostly more crafty stuff (God's Eye's anyone?). Most of our time was doing crafty stuff and singing camp songs and doing skits. During troop meetings we worked on badges that had a lot of variety - including badges on sewing and first aid (both still part of the GS program). I vividly remember getting an arts badge - we did watercolor paintings. And one for cooking.

I didn't learn to canoe or archery. Our hikes weren't exactly great outdoor experiences. I don't remember learning how to build a fire.

I suspect it varied a lot years and years ago and for those that remember a hiking camping GS experience, they were in a hiking camping troop.

My nephews both just got done with Boy Scouts (4th and 5th grade or there abouts). Both hated the camping part. They liked the Pinewood Derby. They were Scouts for the reason a lot of kids are Scouts in my experience (both Boy and Girl Scouts) - because in Kindergarten and First Grade everyone joins Scouts - and by third and forth grade they start leaving for activities that are more focused - traveling sports teams, competitive dance, lego and robotics teams.
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Old 10-13-2017, 02:53 PM
Dangerosa Dangerosa is offline
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And that's my point. I've never heard of a boy having to poke around for a Boy Scout troop or some other organization to find leaders who meet his interests, and they're all volunteers, too. Don't get me wrong: I appreciate GS leaders for volunteering. I'm simply saying girls shouldn't have to shop around, since boys don't. And yes, I took my daughter camping, but camping with the family is far different than camping out with a group, and not everyone has access to alternative groups. I assume when they do, they leave, and then the Scouts have lower numbers. Whatever the BSA rationale is for allowing girls to join, it's the fact girls are asking to do so that should concern GSA: what needs are not being met that the BSA are meeting, and how can those needs be addressed?
I don't think its something that the organizations themselves can address - I think its cultural. Your boys are worth more than your girls. Spending time with your boys in this fashion is expected, spending time with your girls isn't. In particular, with the BSA you get Dads as well as Den Mothers - with Girl Scouts there are almost no Dads involved.

Which is one of the ways that BSA allowing girls in is wonderful - girls will have the advantage of that. But I wouldn't be shocked if the BSA discovers that with the girls, they get the volunteer issue of parents who are less involved in Scouting.
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Old 10-13-2017, 03:25 PM
Dinsdale Dinsdale is online now
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All 3 of my sisters were Girl Scouts back in the 60s-70s. I was a Cub-Boy Scout at the same time. Both of my daughters were Girl Scouts (Daisies/Brownies, up to middle school), and my son made Eagle.

I was talking to my sister about this yesterday. She said the main thing she and my other sisters liked was going on hikes and camping, where they could build fires and goof around in the woods with relatively light adult supervision. I enjoyed the camping as well, but also had a lot of fun doing activities with scouts. And learned a bunch of stuff I still know about basic first aid, knots, etc.

When my daughters were in scouts, there was no camping. The activities were more like homework/home economics. My daughters were not interested and dropped out. My son's troop camped out every month, through the Chicago winters. He loved it.

So my data points suggested that Girl Scouts may have changed in the past decades, with a decreased emphasis on outdoors-type activities. But I understand different troops can have different foci.

I'm not a huge fan of BSA, due to the gay/god stuff. But it does some things well for which there is no good substitute.

I haven't studied up on the proposals, but I see a couple of potential issues. With the younger kids - under age 11 - I think there is less of an issue, other than that many girls seem to mature more quickly. I think there is SOME benefit in allowing boys and girls to act as they want to within their own gender - without adding on the layers of how coed affects things. Yeah, I know that doesn't accommodate GLBTQ, etc.

But I see more problems with boy scouts - which starts at age 11. IME w/ boy scouts, there is a bit of a "Lord of the Flies" dynamic going on, with an overlay of quasi-military discipline/hierarchy. You have 11-year olds interacting closely with 16-18 yr olds. I've NEVER seen a group of Scouts in which there wasn't SOME teasing - some of it pretty brutal. I can't imagine being a leader supervising a coed group of 11-18 yr olds. Hell, we pushed boundaries prettyfar with it judt guys.

And boys act differently when girls aren't involved. I think there is a benefit to boys being able to do scouting sorts of activities without heterosexual dynamics being involved.

But, having said that, I don't have any kids who will be in scouting, so I don't really care. It would be interesting to see to what extent the "curriculum" changed - if at all - to make it unisex.
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Old 10-13-2017, 03:26 PM
nelliebly nelliebly is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangerosa View Post
I don't think its something that the organizations themselves can address - I think its cultural. Your boys are worth more than your girls. Spending time with your boys in this fashion is expected, spending time with your girls isn't. In particular, with the BSA you get Dads as well as Den Mothers - with Girl Scouts there are almost no Dads involved.

Which is one of the ways that BSA allowing girls in is wonderful - girls will have the advantage of that. But I wouldn't be shocked if the BSA discovers that with the girls, they get the volunteer issue of parents who are less involved in Scouting.
So you're basically saying the reason BSA has fewer issues with adult volunteers is that parents don't want to "spend time with" their daughters???
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