A Bible poll (Number 20)

[Little Nemo]

Okay, another poster and I got into a debate about the meaning of this bible passage. It's Numbers 20.

God is punishing Moses and Aaron. What do you think God is punishing them for?

In the first month the whole Israelite community arrived at the Desert of Zin, and they stayed at Kadesh. There Miriam died and was buried.

Now there was no water for the community, and the people gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron. They quarreled with Moses and said, "If only we had died when our brothers fell dead before the Lord! Why did you bring the Lord’s community into this wilderness, that we and our livestock should die here? Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink!"

Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the tent of meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the Lord appeared to them. The Lord said to Moses, "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

So Moses took the staff from the Lord’s presence, just as he commanded him. He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, "Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?" Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them."

These were the waters of Meribah, where the Israelites quarreled with the Lord and where he was proved holy among them.

One interpretation is that God was mad because he commanded Moses to speak to the rock. But when Moses went out, he struck the rock with his staff instead. Moses disobeyed God's command.

The other interpretation is that God was mad because when the crowd was complaining about God, Moses and Aaron walked away and went to their tent rather than speak up in God's defense.

[cmyk]

I was taught something in between #1 & #2.

I vaguely recall it being preached to me that Moses and Aaron went to theatrics to take some of the credit of God's works.

or something.

I can't blame him. I would've said, "Ala Peanut butter and Jelly sammiches!" Then hit the rock like the Fonz.

BEHOLD! I BRING US WATER! EYHHHHH!

[Nava]

For anybody who cares, it's Chapter 20 of the Book of Numbers. The title gives the reference but not very clearly.

I have never heard it as the Lord being mad at Moses and Aaron, but at the People. That plural "you" isn't just two, it's the whole People, who said "ooooh why did the Lord take us out of Egypt? We were much better there! It's much better to live on your knees than die standing!" (Verses 3-5)

Or, in Spanish from Spain, con Franco vivíamos mejor (we lived better under Franco).

[Locrian]

God is always mad. Open any OT story in thebricktestament.com. Always has a scowl. It's mainly because he's an egotistical asshole. (First three commandments about himself) Good thing the bible is not only fictitious, but stolen. Not one original story in the "blessed" tome.

[Bartman]

Mostly because the "P" source really disliked Moses. There is a nearly identical story in Exodus 17 from the "E" source. Both take place in places called Meribah, although they are supposed to be many miles and many years apart from each other. And in general whenever P and E tell the same story, Moses comes out a lot worse in P. So this is just a another example of P trying to diss Moses.

I'm not sure you can ever come to a satisfactory answer about why God was so upset about it. The text doesn't make it clear at all. Pride or Disobedience (He didn't do it quite right) are the sins generally attributed to it. But the text doesn't make it at all clear.

[Rhiannon8404]

I always thought it was because of Moses' and Aaron's lack of faith. Both the striking of the rock and the not standing up for God were signs of their lack of faith.

[Der Trihs]

Originally Posted by Locrian

God is always mad.

Pretty much, yes. That's why i voted "You're both wrong. God was mad for some other reason"; God was mad because he's God, and that appears to be his normal state of being.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Nava

For anybody who cares, it's Chapter 20 of the Book of Numbers. The title gives the reference but not very clearly.

Oops. There's a typo in the title. It should be Numbers 20 not Number 20. If a mod could fix that.

[Little Nemo]

I'm just not seeing how the staff vs speaking thing was an issue. First, God did specifically tell Moses to take the staff when he was getting water. Moses probably just figured hitting the rock with the staff was part of the show. And more importantly, if God really thought it was important for Moses to produce water by merely speaking and Moses disobeyed and hit the rock instead then there wouldn't have been any water. The water was coming from God not Moses so it was only going to show up if Moses was acting in a God-approved manner. The fact that water came out of the rock when Moses hit it, proves God was okay with that method.

Second, notice that when it came time for God to express his disapproval, he spoke to both Moses and Aaron and said they had both done wrong and would both be punished. But Aaron had done nothing wrong about the water - God told him to help gather the crowd together and Aaron did what he was told. If God was angry about disobedience or showing off, he would have singled out Moses. The thing the passage says Moses and Aaron did jointly was walk away without speaking when the crowd was complaining about God.

[hogarth]

For some reason, I always thought that Moses's error was that he hit the rock twice when once would have sufficed. I.e, that trying it twice showed a lack of faith.

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by hogarth

For some reason, I always thought that Moses's error was that he hit the rock twice when once would have sufficed. I.e, that trying it twice showed a lack of faith.

No, a lack of faith would have been Moses hitting the rock first and then, after he made sure the water was coming out, making the public announcement.

[StGermain]

He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, "Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?"

I'd say Moses and Aaron were taking credit for the water coming for the rock.

StG

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

God's shorts were all bunched up. Happened to Him a lot.

[Voyager]

I linked to the first two goyisher commentaries on it in the original thread.
As for those who responded that the Bible is fiction - sure it is, we're talking character motivation here.

[TonySinclair]

Every time I read almost any Bible passage about Moses after the Exodus, I'm reminded of Christian apologists whom I ask a very reasonable question: "Why can't you throw a mountain into the sea, like Jesus promised?" Or why they can't do *any* miracle, no matter how tiny?

After mumbling something about not tempting the Lord, which doesn't make sense even to them when it was Jesus who made that unsolicited offer, they say something like, "If God obviously answered prayers, there would be no need for faith."

That makes no sense to me either, but the point is that they are ignoring about two thirds of the Pentateuch, which shows the Israelites time and time again seeing God perform all these miracles, but a few hours later, if they are hungry or thirsty or see an enemy in the distance, they say "Who is this Moses character, and where is his God, and why did we ever leave Egypt?"

So I vote "I think the entire Bible is fiction."

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by Voyager

I linked to the first two goyisher commentaries on it in the original thread.

I'll admit your point of view seems to be the predominant one. Which surprised me. I had always thought the interpretation of this passage was clear and had never considered there was another possible interpretation much less one that was widely held.

[echo7tango]

God is angry at Israel for their repeated lack of faith in the OT.

[Reloy3]

Originally Posted by StGermain

I'd say Moses and Aaron were taking credit for the water coming for the rock.

StG

Thats the interpretation I grew up with - Moses didn't give credit for the miracle to God.

[Autolycus]

If I was God, I'd prolly be much crankier about the fact that Moses and Aaron didn't stick up for Me when their bros were all dissin, rather than the big magic song and dance they did about the water. I mean, Yahweh loves theatrics! The whole OT is full of 'em for cryin' out loud!

[antonio107]

I haven't read the OT since I was a kid, but reading the passage you quoted, it sounds like Moses just made the water come out, but without crediting God for doing it. In other words, God was asking for a cite, which--as I've learned from lurking on here--people can only do in their angry outdoor voice. Might explain why the Almighty seems bent out of shape.

EDIT: I see Reloy3 beat me to it by a wide margin, and without the snark. My bad!

EDIT 2: and StGermain, whom he was quoting. God I fail at the interwebs tonight!

[Little Nemo]

Originally Posted by StGermain

I'd say Moses and Aaron were taking credit for the water coming for the rock.

Originally Posted by Reloy3

Thats the interpretation I grew up with - Moses didn't give credit for the miracle to God.

Originally Posted by antonio107

I haven't read the OT since I was a kid, but reading the passage you quoted, it sounds like Moses just made the water come out, but without crediting God for doing it.

But I'm imagining Aaron saying, "Okay, Moses screwed up with the water. But why are you mad at me?"

[kanicbird]

My take on it is God understands Moses' frustration in guiding these 'stiff necked*' people. As God was frustrated in trying to guide these children Moses was equally frustrated. So God fully understood the reason why the rock was struck and is OK with it.

There was no punishment given, but a reprieve. Moses would no longer have to take all of them in because that was never his job, Moses needed to realize this and have God do it (though another). We see this in other areas where Moses took on too much and finally got others to help out (as in deciding the disputed between Israelites). Moses needed to be able to let go of the responsibility and I believe that striking of the rock was the symbolic gesture of 'I have had enough', which is what the Lord was trying to teach Moses.

Thanks to the NT we know what happened to Moses after his death. Moses was transfigured and entered into the promised land where he does get to see the Israelite children there.

* Biblical term for Israelites

[NoClueBoy]

Originally Posted by StGermain

I'd say Moses and Aaron were taking credit for the water coming for the rock.

StG

That's my take, as well. Instead of telling the camp that God gave them water, Moses and Aaron took credit, putting themselves over God.

YMMV, IANAHebrew

[antonio107]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

But I'm imagining Aaron saying, "Okay, Moses screwed up with the water. But why are you mad at me?"

"What's a matter, Aaron? Cat got your tongue?"

God told Moses, but apparently Aaron saw him, too. I often wonder how these verbs translate from ancient (Hebrew? Aramaic?) into English. It seems to me they were working in tandem here.

[Weedy]

Originally Posted by hogarth

For some reason, I always thought that Moses's error was that he hit the rock twice when once would have sufficed. I.e, that trying it twice showed a lack of faith.

Thats exactly what I was taught in Catholic school. Reading the passage now, Im not sure that interpretation is well supported by the text.

I also remember something about taking credit. Moses hitting the rock twice shows he thought his actions had something to do with the water coming out.

Hitting the rock twice was definitely the bad thing he did, as I was taught it.

[Yllaria]

What Moses didn't know was that Jehovah had disguised himself as the rock.

[emeraldia]

Originally Posted by Little Nemo

In the first month the whole Israelite community arrived at the Desert of Zin, and they stayed at Kadesh. There Miriam died and was buried.

Now there was no water for the community, and the people gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron. They quarreled with Moses and said, "If only we had died when our brothers fell dead before the Lord! Why did you bring the Lord’s community into this wilderness, that we and our livestock should die here? Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink!"

Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the tent of meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the Lord appeared to them. The Lord said to Moses, "Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink."

So Moses took the staff from the Lord’s presence, just as he commanded him. He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, "Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?" Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.

But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them."

These were the waters of Meribah, where the Israelites quarreled with the Lord and where he was proved holy among them.

First, they returned to their tents in order to pray (honor God). They did not do it in the sight of the Israelites.

Then, again in the sight of the Israelites, instead of "speaking to the rock" (praying (i.e. honoring God)), Moses hit the rock twice with his staff.

It's both. Both of them were opportunities to honor God in the sight of the Israelites, but they did not do so.

[BigT]

I chose both, but I 'm not sure I should have. The sins were the disobedience of hitting the rock instead of speaking to it, and the pride of claiming the power of God as their own. They should have given glory to God for his miracle, which could be thought of as defending God, though perhaps not in the way you meant.

I don't think God punished them at all for, say, not chastising the Israelites, as I see no indication He told them to do so, and don't see any laws that would require it.