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  #101  
Old 11-13-2017, 11:44 AM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
There is new research that indicates the lack of any structural differences between a "male brain" and a female brain" — which has implications for trans people and cis people as well. I'll be blogging on that theme on Monday.
Thanks for the IMHO post, and I read the article you were blogging about. I think your one-sentence summary may be slightly misleading about the actual findings of the article, which says in the last sentence of the abstract:
Quote:
Our study demonstrates that, although there are sex/gender differences in the brain, human brains do not belong to one of two distinct categories: male brain/female brain.
In other words, although sex-based structural differences in the brain are variable enough to preclude categorizing brains with a simple binary classification, they do exist. The article continues:
Quote:
Documented sex/gender* differences in the brain are often taken as support of a sexually dimorphic view of human brains (“female brain” vs. “male brain”), and consequently, of a sexually dimorphic view of human behavior, cognition, personality, attitudes, and other gender characteristics (3). Joel (4, 5) has recently argued that the existence of sex/gender differences in the brain is not sufficient to conclude that human brains belong to two distinct categories.
Judging from the links at the bottom of that page, this is part of an ongoing debate about whether brain sex/gender differences warrant using a binary "female vs. male" brain classification system. Nobody's disputing the existence of documented sex/gender brain differences in themselves.
  #102  
Old 11-13-2017, 02:24 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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That's a fair take on it, Kimstu. In my blog post, I make that same assertion (eventually): that although the popular press has tended to run with the idea that this research means "no differences", that's not actually what the research says.
  #103  
Old 11-14-2017, 08:20 AM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
No of course not, but if we as a society stop making such a big deal about transgender identity (and gender norms in general), then the number of people open to dating transgender people will naturally increase. We as a society don't get to tell individuals what their dating preferences should be, but it's a fact that general trends in dating preferences follow societal norms.

Back in the days of Jim Crow, for example, a large proportion of white Americans had very negative feelings about dating a black person. Now that our society is more (though still far from entirely) integrated, many more white people are willing to date interracially.

Nobody went around forcing or exhorting individual white people to date black people if they didn't want to, and nobody's going to make cisgender individuals date transgender people if they don't want to. But in all such cases, societal acceptance generally results in higher levels of individual acceptance.
The population of black women and Asian men that face challenges in the dating market eclipses the population of transgender folks who are having dating issues. And frankly the difference between skin color and being transgender are much more profound. It can be really hard to have kids with someone who is transgender.

If you want to talk about violence, discrimination on the job, etc. Then I'm right there next to you. But frankly, I think its probably more honest to tell someone you are transgender before your first date. Because being transgender is in fact a big deal, its probably one of the defining characteristics of your identity.
  #104  
Old 11-14-2017, 08:32 AM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
No of course not, but if we as a society stop making such a big deal about transgender identity (and gender norms in general), then the number of people open to dating transgender people will naturally increase
I don't understand what you mean here. Increasing society's acceptance of transgender identity will lead more people to change their sexual orientation?
  #105  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:09 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I don't understand what you mean here. Increasing society's acceptance of transgender identity will lead more people to change their sexual orientation?
Nope. A heterosexual man doesn't become gay just because he dates a heterosexual transgender woman, whether or not she's had SRS, and the same goes for a heterosexual woman dating a heterosexual transgender man.

Of course it's impossible to make categorical statements about such a variable concept as sexual orientation, but I think it's safe to say that in general, sexual attraction to a member of the gender one prefers depends much more on what the person is like and how they present than on the specifics of their genitalia.

I'm not denying that there are many people who could be initially attracted to a transgender person and then lose all interest in them on discovering that their original equipment was different from expectations, and if that's how they feel (as long as they're respectful and kind about it), then I don't see anything wrong with it.

But many heterosexual people do not lose interest in an opposite-gender partner on discovering them to be transgender, and my contention is that this attitude will become more widespread as general social acceptance of transgender people increases.

Some examples:

What It’s Like Dating a Trans Woman as a Straight, Cisgender Male: An Interview With My Boyfriend

Does Dating Someone Transgender Make You Gay?"
  #106  
Old 11-14-2017, 12:16 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
The population of black women and Asian men that face challenges in the dating market eclipses the population of transgender folks who are having dating issues.
Uh, true but irrelevant? Increased social acceptance of transgender people does not preclude increased social acceptance of interracial dating.

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi
But frankly, I think its probably more honest to tell someone you are transgender before your first date.
If you're a transgender person and it's very important to you for people you're dating to be aware that you're transgender, then I agree you ought to tell potential dates right away.

But if you're a cisgender person and it's very important to you not to date transgender people, then I think it's on you to put that information out there right away. Put it in your online dating profile, mention it in the first phone call, whatever. If you have clearly specified that you don't want to date transgender people and a potential date pursues you while hiding their transgender status, then I agree they're not being honest.

But don't just expect that transgender people should adjust their behavior to conform to your preferences when you haven't even made your preferences known. If transgender identity is an automatic dealbreaker for you in a dating relationship, it's your responsibility to be upfront about that.
  #107  
Old 11-14-2017, 01:01 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
but I think it's safe to say that in general, sexual attraction to a member of the gender one prefers depends much more on what the person is like and how they present than on the specifics of their genitalia
Sorry, but i disagree with you here. I think it's safe to say that in general, sexual attraction has a lot to do with genitalia.

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But many heterosexual people do not lose interest in an opposite-gender partner on discovering them to be transgender, and my contention is that this attitude will become more widespread as general social acceptance of transgender people increases
I don't think this will be the case. Societal acceptance will not make the vast majority of men suddenly think "Hmmm, I guess my partner having a penis is not so bad"
  #108  
Old 11-14-2017, 01:04 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
If you're a transgender person and it's very important to you for people you're dating to be aware that you're transgender, then I agree you ought to tell potential dates right away
Why wouldn't it be important to make sure people you are dating know you are transgender? What would be the plan in a situation where it wasn't important? Just never tell the person you are dating? Wait a while? Something else?
  #109  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:13 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
No doubt being transgender is tough. I don't think society has a very good understanding of that transgender means. I know I don't.

BUT, I don't know what you do about rejection by people who don't want date a transgender person. I don't think you can blame people for that.
I don't believe I did cast blame on those rejecting us for not wanting to date or have a relationship with us. It is, sadly, what it is.

But part of it is a societal stigma that is contributed to by those spreading FUD. The more negativity in the press, from our President and other Republicans, from hate groups, or from well-meaning but ignorant people, the more stigma is attached to us. Who bears responsibility for those contributing factors?
  #110  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:18 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
But don't just expect that transgender people should adjust their behavior to conform to your preferences when you haven't even made your preferences known. If transgender identity is an automatic dealbreaker for you in a dating relationship, it's your responsibility to be upfront about that.
Quoted for truth.

Cisgender people can post all they want to how they aren't bigots, but when you ask that they be honest and forthright and put in their dating profile "no transgender persons," suddenly *that's* a violation of *their* privacy, and why should *they* have to be honest about their feelings...and more excuses. There aren't enough rolleyes.
  #111  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:33 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Quoted for truth.

Cisgender people can post all they want to how they aren't bigots, but when you ask that they be honest and forthright and put in their dating profile "no transgender persons," suddenly *that's* a violation of *their* privacy, and why should *they* have to be honest about their feelings...and more excuses. There aren't enough rolleyes.
This seems strange to me. Do I also have to put "no men" and "No one under the age of consent" as well?

It seems to me that certain things would be understood, unless specifically mentioned as something a person was looking for.

And that's bigoted?
  #112  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:41 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972
Societal acceptance will not make the vast majority of men suddenly think "Hmmm, I guess my partner having a penis is not so bad"
Maybe not, but as I noted, it's likely to increase the number of straight men who think that way. (And also to increase the number of straight men who are no longer afraid to admit that they think that way. Lots of straight men even nowadays are happily dating transgender women; they just tend to conceal her transgender status for fear of social repercussions.)

Nobody's arguing that all or even most straight men will or ought to want to date a transgender woman. I'm just pointing out that once the general social stigma about transgender status diminishes, there will be more men who are okay with the idea.

I don't know why this seems so odd to you. It's a routine fact of human behavior that increasing societal acceptance in general tends to increase individual participation in all sorts of behaviors, from same-sex marriage to body piercing to eating raw fish. Nobody's saying that all straight men have to want to date transgender women, any more than anybody's saying that everybody has to like sushi.

I'm just pointing out the quite commonplace observation that as a particular behavior becomes less of a social taboo, typically more individuals will want to do it.

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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Why wouldn't it be important to make sure people you are dating know you are transgender?
Um, for the same reasons it might not be important to make sure people you are dating know lots of other things about you?

Some people don't reveal that they've been married and divorced; some people don't reveal that they've had a facelift or a boob job; some people don't reveal that they're very wealthy or were the Chamonix ski jumping junior champion in 1988, or whatever.

It is entirely up to individuals to decide what they want to voluntarily reveal about themselves to people they're dating. (As long as it isn't, e.g., STD status in a sexual relationship where the partner could be infected, the non-disclosure of which would be actually illegal in many states.)

Likewise, it is entirely up to individuals to decide what they want to declare as important issues or potential dealbreakers in a dating relationship. I repeat: if you make it plain that you don't want to date a transgender person and a transgender person nonetheless pursues a relationship with you while hiding their transgender identity, they are being dishonest and unethical.

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Originally Posted by manson1972
What would be the plan in a situation where it wasn't important? Just never tell the person you are dating? Wait a while? Something else?
I don't know, it would depend on the choices of the individual, the nature of the relationship, and whatever they happen to know about the preferences of the person they're dating.

But that doesn't change the fact that if you have specific preferences about your dating situation, it's up to you to make your preferences known. You're not entitled to demand that potential dating partners should spontaneously tell you specific things about themselves without your even asking about them or making it clear that they're important to you.
  #113  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:41 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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It's been addressed numerous times before, but one might wonder "why would a transgender person not list up-front in 72-point font that they are transgender when dating?"

There are a few answers I can think of.

Foremost, some of us who have transitioned have simply moved on into our normal, everyday lives. If we have passing privilege, then even more so. It's a medical condition. Should people also be putting foremost in their profiles "I'm a Type I diabetic" or "I have IBS?" Not every single date is a pathway to marriage - many dates are just that, and if you have a common interest with the person and you like them and you think they're cute...why do you care so much about a transgender history for a simple date?

If the person is pre-op, then IMO YES, there needs to be some explanation prior to any sexual act. Mainly due to the fact that angry, cisgender men beating or murdering pre-op transgender women has almost become competitive sport for some. If they are post-op...why do you care? I can assure you, men cannot tell a natal vagina from a surgically crafted one (hell, they can't even find the clitoris half the time). I've seen LOTS of cisgender and transgender vaginas very up-close and personal, and no I'm not telling any stories. Women can usually tell a crafted penis from a natal one, simply because the state-of-the-art in surgery is still not very good, but not all the time (and remember, Billy Tipton had no penis at all, yet his wives never really knew (or took years to find out)).

If the relationship begins to move toward permanence (as much as anything is permanent in relationships), then there needs to be a talk about how a past life could come forward, about the inability to bear children/father children, etc.

Ultimately, the concern over genitals is often "trans panic" by incredibly fragile homophobic men who believe even thinking a transgender woman is attractive means they are gayer than a $3 bill in the pocket of a Miami Beach doggie hair stylist.

There is a lot of debate in my community over informing versus not. There are many young firebrands who believe that you never need to tell, ever, under any circumstances. I on the other hand believe telling as early as possible is best, because you want to find out if you're dating a bigot, or dating someone who is interested in more than you can offer them, and because I personally have friends right here in my city who bear the scars of being beaten by angry, cisgender men at the end of a date. My position seems to be a minority one.

Another aspect of those who do not inform is, well, loneliness. Advertising that you're transgender on a dating site typically lands you chasers (many creepy), hetero couples who are "curious" about a threesome, or other transgender people. As the months and years pass, some of us just want to have any human contact, so we will not mention our past, and hope against all hope that the person we have a first date is kind. But it's like being in a ticking trap - the further the relationship goes, the more there is to lose when you do come out. The more fear and uncertainty and dread. It can be worse than never having tried. I know people who didn't tell until the 5th, 7th, 10th date, sometimes even years into the relationship. It almost always ends in tears (the only time it didn't is when the partner figured it all out very early on, and respectfully never brought it up themselves.)

When I met Fierra on the SDMB, she knew I was trans before our first date - I told her when she asked me out. Her reaction: "Oh cool! Do you like Indian food?"
  #114  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:45 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
This seems strange to me. Do I also have to put "no men" and "No one under the age of consent" as well?
The first seems not only reasonable, but expected - in fact every single dating site I've seen asks for sexual orientation. Maybe they don't on "Southern Baptist Christian Mingle", but every other site.

The second is a false analogy, since it's trying to compare an illegal act with being transgender. There's no need to list all the illegal things you're not interested, because, duh.
  #115  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:55 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
This seems strange to me. Do I also have to put "no men" and "No one under the age of consent" as well?
If you're on the "Men Seeking Women" section of a dating website, it's already clearly indicated that you don't want to date men. And of course, dating somebody under the age of consent would be illegal, so the dating website's terms of service are already going to stipulate that that's not allowed.

But anything not specifically ruled out is potentially possible. If you don't want to date fat women, or redheaded women, or Baptist women, or tall women, or transgender women, or women older than you are, or conjoined-twin women, or any other specific kind of woman, it is up to you to make your preference known, rather than expecting women to spontaneously reveal any such facts about themselves right from the get-go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972
It seems to me that certain things would be understood, unless specifically mentioned as something a person was looking for.
Why would anything about your expectations of your potential dating partners be "understood" if they're not "specifically mentioned" in some way? Strangers don't know anything at all about you or what you might like, except what's specifically indicated in some form or another in your dating profile. And I already pointed out how your examples of "no men" and "no minors" are in fact already specifically indicated in your dating profile.

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Originally Posted by manson1972
And that's bigoted?
Well, it might be bigoted, or it might be just plain slow-witted. Expecting transgender people in particular to pre-emptively announce their transgender status as some sort of "freak warning" on dating sites, like a medieval leper having to ring a bell everywhere they go, would be bigoted.

Expecting strangers in general to be able to second-guess your specific dating preferences when you haven't stated them would be just plain slow-witted.

Last edited by Kimstu; 11-14-2017 at 02:59 PM.
  #116  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:56 PM
jayjay jayjay is offline
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I've never dated or slept with a transman, but, as a gay man, I can say that I've found many, many of them attractive and would consider it were I single. The NC anti-bathroom-bill campaign was a revelation, because almost every one of the transmen in it were incredibly attractive.
  #117  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:56 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
It's been addressed numerous times before, but one might wonder "why would a transgender person not list up-front in 72-point font that they are transgender when dating?"
I appreciate you answering, but do not appreciate the hyperbole of "72-point font" when I am simply asking a question.

Quote:
Foremost, some of us who have transitioned have simply moved on into our normal, everyday lives. If we have passing privilege, then even more so. It's a medical condition. Should people also be putting foremost in their profiles "I'm a Type I diabetic" or "I have IBS?"
Does having Type I diabetes or IBS mean that you are biologically different than what you present?

Quote:
Ultimately, the concern over genitals is often "trans panic" by incredibly fragile homophobic men who believe even thinking a transgender woman is attractive means they are gayer than a $3 bill in the pocket of a Miami Beach doggie hair stylist.
I'm not asking because of "trans panic" or thoughts about gayness or whatever. I once spent a great night hanging out with a woman and then hours later right before going to my room, she said "Just so you know, I'm a ladyboy" This was in Thailand, and a direct quote from her, so please no "Hate speech" announcements. I wasn't mad or angry, just disappointed. Had I known that beforehand, I could have found another woman to go with us who was gender-typical. No big deal to me but disappointing at the end of the night.

Quote:
But it's like being in a ticking trap - the further the relationship goes, the more there is to lose when you do come out. The more fear and uncertainty and dread. It can be worse than never having tried. I know people who didn't tell until the 5th, 7th, 10th date, sometimes even years into the relationship. It almost always ends in tears (the only time it didn't is when the partner figured it all out very early on, and respectfully never brought it up themselves.)
This is why my question. Seems like telling right up front would avoid tears and anger later.
  #118  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:59 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Uh, true but irrelevant? Increased social acceptance of transgender people does not preclude increased social acceptance of interracial dating.
Of course not. I'm just trying to put this particular issue in perspective. This is not a particularly sympathetic issue compared to the others that were listed. Getting beat up or fired is one thing, getting rejected romantically is another.

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If you're a transgender person and it's very important to you for people you're dating to be aware that you're transgender, then I agree you ought to tell potential dates right away.

But if you're a cisgender person and it's very important to you not to date transgender people, then I think it's on you to put that information out there right away. Put it in your online dating profile, mention it in the first phone call, whatever. If you have clearly specified that you don't want to date transgender people and a potential date pursues you while hiding their transgender status, then I agree they're not being honest.
So my first date should start with "Hey BTW, are you or have you ever been a dude?"

No. The burden of disclosure is on the transgender person.

Quote:
But don't just expect that transgender people should adjust their behavior to conform to your preferences when you haven't even made your preferences known. If transgender identity is an automatic dealbreaker for you in a dating relationship, it's your responsibility to be upfront about that.
That's silly. It is significant material information that you have and I do not. It is up to you to share that information with me otherwise you are withholding material facts.
  #119  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:03 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
The first seems not only reasonable, but expected - in fact every single dating site I've seen asks for sexual orientation. Maybe they don't on "Southern Baptist Christian Mingle", but every other site.
Sorry, but if I see a profile that says "Woman looking for a man" I would assume she meant a gender-typical man, unless she said otherwise. Not sure why that is so controversial.
  #120  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:04 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
I don't believe I did cast blame on those rejecting us for not wanting to date or have a relationship with us. It is, sadly, what it is.

But part of it is a societal stigma that is contributed to by those spreading FUD. The more negativity in the press, from our President and other Republicans, from hate groups, or from well-meaning but ignorant people, the more stigma is attached to us. Who bears responsibility for those contributing factors?
What is FUD?

In the context of withholding material information to someone you want to be romantically involved with, what does it matter who bears responsibility for the stigma? Do you think that being transgender is something that the reasonable person would consider a material fact?

Why wouldn't you share such a material fact? Out of fear of rejection? What's the plan? Keep the charade going long enough that they fall so far in love with you that they will be able to overcome the stigma and just go with it?
  #121  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:06 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
If you're on the "Men Seeking Women" section of a dating website, it's already clearly indicated that you don't want to date men
True. And if I was on the "Men Seeking Transgender" section of a dating website, it would be clear I was looking to date a transgender person. To me, "Men Seeking Women" means "Men Seeking Gender-Typical Women".

Again, not sure why this is so controversial.
  #122  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:19 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi View Post
This is not a particularly sympathetic issue compared to the others that were listed. Getting beat up or fired is one thing, getting rejected romantically is another.
They're not entirely separate, though. As general societal acceptance of transgender people increases, romantic rejection will naturally diminish along with (though probably not to the same extent as) violence and discrimination against them.

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi
So my first date should start with "Hey BTW, are you or have you ever been a dude?"
Well, that wouldn't be very informative phrased in such a way, because AFAIK most transgender women don't and never did actually identify as men. That's why they're, you know, transgender women.

The correct way to ask such a question would be more along the lines of "Do you identify as transgender?" or "Were you female-assigned at birth?"

And yes, if it is so important to you to know such information right at the very start of a dating relationship, then it is up to you to make that clear. Whether you do so by asking individual dates about their gender identity, or saying "no transgender women please" in your online profile, or whatever, the responsibility for clarifying your preferences rests with you.

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi
The burden of disclosure is on the transgender person.
Why? Why is it up to the other person to second-guess what you consider important to disclose without your telling them?

That seems just stupid to me. You're the one who knows what's important to you; you should be the one bringing up the issues that are important to you. Expecting a total stranger to know what's important to you is unrealistic.

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Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi
It is significant material information that you have and I do not. It is up to you to share that information with me otherwise you are withholding material facts.
So what? People withhold "material facts" of all sorts from potential dating partners all the time. It's not their responsibility to magically know in advance which "material facts" you consider disqualifying or dealbreakers.

Last edited by Kimstu; 11-14-2017 at 03:19 PM.
  #123  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:31 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
Does having Type I diabetes or IBS mean that you are biologically different than what you present?
What does "biologically different than what you present" mean, exactly? Somebody with dyed hair or tinted contact lenses or breast implants is also "biologically different from what they present" in that their biologically natural self looks different from their modified appearance.

If a particular kind of modification from one's original biological characteristics is a dealbreaker for you in a dating partner, it's up to you to make that clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972
Had I known that beforehand, I could have found another woman to go with us who was gender-typical.
Sure, but if it was important to you to know that beforehand, you could have asked about that beforehand. It wasn't her duty to volunteer information about her genital configuration at the start of the night, any more than it was her duty to volunteer information about her ethnic origin or number of children or whatever.

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Originally Posted by manson1972
And if I was on the "Men Seeking Transgender" section of a dating website, it would be clear I was looking to date a transgender person. To me, "Men Seeking Women" means "Men Seeking Gender-Typical Women". [...]

Sorry, but if I see a profile that says "Woman looking for a man" I would assume she meant a gender-typical man, unless she said otherwise.
Nobody else is responsible for what you assume. If you are seeking to date women on a dating website and you want to restrict the definition of "women" to mean "cisgender women", it's up to you to make that clear.
  #124  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:40 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
What does "biologically different than what you present" mean, exactly? Somebody with dyed hair or tinted contact lenses or breast implants is also "biologically different from what they present" in that their biologically natural self looks different from their modified appearance
You think dyed hair makes someone biologically different? Now you are just reaching. Someone who presents as a woman but is biologically a man is "biologically different than what you present" It's not that hard to understand.

Quote:
Nobody else is responsible for what you assume. If you are seeking to date women on a dating website and you want to restrict the definition of "women" to mean "cisgender women", it's up to you to make that clear.
Sorry, but I don't think so. When I say "I'm looking for a woman to date" it's YOUR fault for assuming I mean a transgender woman.
  #125  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:43 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
To me, "Men Seeking Women" means "Men Seeking Gender-Typical Women".

Again, not sure why this is so controversial.

Out of curiosity...in which searches would you expect intersex people to show up? Someone with, let's say, androgen insensitivity syndrome who identified all her life as a girl, as a woman now, who has female external genitalia but a vagina that does not lead to a uterus, and who has XY chromosomes. She has testes instead of ovaries.

Do you think...

a) she has no business dating at all

b) she can date but her profile should only come up when someone is searching for "XY women" or "women with a few boy parts"?

c) she should date normally with a profile that comes up for "men seeking women" and at some point in the conversation when she deems it appropriate she can explain some or all of this?

d) other?
  #126  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:47 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by AHunter3 View Post
Out of curiosity...in which searches would you expect intersex people to show up? Someone with, let's say, androgen insensitivity syndrome who identified all her life as a girl, as a woman now, who has female external genitalia but a vagina that does not lead to a uterus, and who has XY chromosomes. She has testes instead of ovaries.

Do you think...

a) she has no business dating at all

b) she can date but her profile should only come up when someone is searching for "XY women" or "women with a few boy parts"?

c) she should date normally with a profile that comes up for "men seeking women" and at some point in the conversation when she deems it appropriate she can explain some or all of this?

d) other?
I'll go with d) other: "Men seeking people with androgen insensitivity syndrome"
  #127  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:49 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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I'll go with d) other: "Men seeking people with androgen insensitivity syndrome"
Well, you get points for consistency. Methinks there's evidence for some other kind of insensitivity syndrome here, though.
  #128  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:53 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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When I say "I'm looking for a woman to date" it's YOUR fault for assuming I mean a transgender woman.
And look how well that obstinate obtuseness worked out for you in Thailand. Would you rather have a successful date, or a failed date as long as you can blame somebody else for its failure?

It is not reasonable to expect complete strangers to know your dating preferences in advance. Nor is it reasonable to expect complete strangers to know that you intend to blame them for not knowing your dating preferences in advance.

What is reasonable is to expect complete strangers to respect your dating preferences once you have made it clear what they are.
  #129  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:56 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Originally Posted by Una Persson View Post
Quoted for truth.

Cisgender people can post all they want to how they aren't bigots, but when you ask that they be honest and forthright and put in their dating profile "no transgender persons," suddenly *that's* a violation of *their* privacy, and why should *they* have to be honest about their feelings...and more excuses. There aren't enough rolleyes.
I got hitched before the internet so I don't know how this works but is there a little box you have to check and to complete your profile and people are just leaving it blank because they don't want to appear bigoted but they really are because they aren't into transgender people? or are you saying that this is something people have to think of while writing a narrative about themselves?

Back in my day, I would go to a bar or nightclub and it would never cross my mind to say "Hey can I buy you a drink, btw I'm not into transwomen so if you're transgendered, please tell me now"

The burden is being placed on where it rests most lightly. The transgender person is what we call the least cost avoider.

Lets say that 50% of people would care if their date was transgender.

Rather than have 50% of the world verify that the person they are dating is not transgendered (which will be the case 99% of the time), we place the burden on the 1% that is transgendered to disclose 100% of the time. That reduces transaction costs by 98%. It reduces the possibility of error significantly.
  #130  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:58 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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>20 years ago, I would bet money that lots (not all, but lots) of white men would be aghast if they found out a woman they're dating that they thought was white was actually mixed race.

Now I imagine the amount of men who'd feel this way is much, much lower. Why? Because of changes in social stigma -- the stigma of a white person dating a black person is much, much lower than it was in the past. That kind of social stigma is responsible (in my understanding) for most, if not all, of the kind of revulsion that folks feel in terms of romantic relationships and sex.

Social stigma for dating a trans person is still pretty significant, especially for (cis) men (I've noticed that the "eww, gross!" responses are much, much more common from men then women with regards to dating a trans person), and thus plenty of cismen still claim feelings of revulsion at the thought of dating a transwoman.

I've noticed this personally in myself -- 20 years ago, I would have said "eww gross", both at the thought of dating a transwoman and even at seeing gay or trans (but not lesbian!) kissing in a movie. No longer. I'm not single, but I'm straight, and if I found a transwoman attractive (like, say, Janet Mock) I'd have no compunction in dating them (were I single). And when there's a gay or trans kissing scene on TV, it's no longer revolting to me at all.

So I think the vast majority of this dating thing is just about social stigma. No shame in admitting it -- pretty much everyone is affected by this kind of thing in society and culture. If you find the idea of dating a trans person gross, okay... but I'd recommend at least considering the likelihood that this is at least partially because of social stigma, and not because there's something inborn inside of you that screams "oh gross!" at the thought of dating a trans person.

As another piece of evidence, consider all the cultural and societal rage in the past against homosexuality. This was mostly focused on gay men, in my understanding -- gay women certainly experienced difficulties, but if I have my facts right, gay men were more likely to be beaten or killed for being gay. The social stigma was stronger against gay men than gay women, I think. And thus straight men were far more revolted by the idea of dating a man than straight women were about gay women. Again, in my understanding of the facts. If I'm right about this, then I think it's pretty clear those two things (stronger societal stigma against gay men, and stronger revulsion by straight men to gay men) are strongly linked.
  #131  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:08 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Kimstu View Post
And look how well that obstinate obtuseness worked out for you in Thailand. Would you rather have a successful date, or a failed date as long as you can blame somebody else for its failure?
What is your definition of successful date? I would rather know up front so I don't waste my time on a date with someone that I wouldn't have sex with. As said above, why would I ask every woman I meet if they are transgendered so I know not to date them when it's easier for the small amount of women who are transgender to just say "Just so you know, I'm a transgender woman"? I honestly don't see what the upside to keeping it a secret is. The downsides of not disclosing have been listed above, but what are the upsides? What possible good can come from not disclosing something like that?
  #132  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:10 PM
Ethilrist Ethilrist is offline
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Sorry, but if I see a profile that says "Woman looking for a man" I would assume she meant a gender-typical man, unless she said otherwise. Not sure why that is so controversial.
Because Match and OKCupid stunningly endorse the gender binary. For the initial sort, the person creating the profile gets to specify Male or Female.
  #133  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:15 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by Ethilrist View Post
Because Match and OKCupid stunningly endorse the gender binary. For the initial sort, the person creating the profile gets to specify Male or Female.
If only there was some easy way to overcome these limits and state openly that you are transgendered.

Regardless, if Match and OKCupid had an option to select "Transgendered Man" or "Transgendered Woman", do you think it would be appropriate for a transgender man or transgender woman to select that option?
  #134  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:19 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
What is your definition of successful date? I would rather know up front so I don't waste my time on a date with someone that I wouldn't have sex with. As said above, why would I ask every woman I meet if they are transgendered so I know not to date them when it's easier for the small amount of women who are transgender to just say "Just so you know, I'm a transgender woman"? I honestly don't see what the upside to keeping it a secret is. The downsides of not disclosing have been listed above, but what are the upsides? What possible good can come from not disclosing something like that?
Because being outed could put them at considerable risk, to career and even life. So they may not be willing to tell a stranger, and only after a few dates might they be confident that they're with someone who wouldn't out them (or worse) and thus feel relatively safe in telling them.
  #135  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:22 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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The trans woman you dated in Thailand made a wise choice, very likely, because she didn't know you weren't the type of person who would beat her for being trans until she got to know you. In a way, telling you was probably a compliment - her way of saying "I think you're probably a nice and decent person, and thus I'm willing to take the risk of telling you that I'm trans".
  #136  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:23 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
Because being outed could put them at considerable risk, to career and even life. So they may not be willing to tell a stranger, and only after a few dates might they be confident that they're with someone who wouldn't out them (or worse) and thus feel relatively safe in telling them.
I'll ask you as well, if a dating site had transgender options during profile creation, do you think it is appropriate for a transgender person to select one of those options?
  #137  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:28 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I'll ask you as well, if a dating site had transgender options during profile creation, do you think it is appropriate for a transgender person to select one of those options?
If they feel safe doing so, yes.
  #138  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:30 PM
manson1972 manson1972 is offline
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
If they feel safe doing so, yes.
I see. So, to extrapolate, you feel that if they don't feel safe, they should select "Woman" instead of "Transgendered Woman"?
  #139  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:50 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I appreciate you answering, but do not appreciate the hyperbole of "72-point font" when I am simply asking a question.
It's an SDMB joke from back in the day. I apologize.

Quote:
Does having Type I diabetes or IBS mean that you are biologically different than what you present?
The former can mean that you are impotent, unable to safely bear children, could be subjected to enormous and devastating health problems (or already are). The latter could mean you could soon be absolutely handicapped and out of work due to pain (it happens). There is a very clear parallel on some levels. How much personal medical information is one required to give out in order to be acceptable to you?

Quote:
Seems like telling right up front would avoid tears and anger later.
Normally true.
  #140  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:52 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Originally Posted by manson1972 View Post
I see. So, to extrapolate, you feel that if they don't feel safe, they should select "Woman" instead of "Transgendered Woman"?
That's up to them. Deceit is usually wrong, IMO, but sometimes it's reasonable and acceptable, again IMO.

Deceit is wrong in this case if they're doing it because they want to date men who don't know they're trans (say, to broaden the numbers or something). It could be acceptable if they're doing it because they risk losing a job, or worse, were they outed by a stranger.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-14-2017 at 04:54 PM.
  #141  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:52 PM
AHunter3 AHunter3 is offline
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Who Do You Like?:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AHunter3
OKCupid, the dating site, has recently expanded their options for describing yourself. I can now identify myself not merely as either a woman or a man, but also as androgynous; or bigender; or cis man; or cis woman; or genderfluid; or genderqueer; or gender nonconforming; or hijira; or intersex; or non-binary; or Pandenger; or Transfeminine; or Transgender; or Transmasculine; or Transsexual; or Trans Man; or Trans Woman; or Two Spirit. Is that incredible and impressive in its flexibility, or what? It's a real victory, isn't it! Oh, and that's just my gender and sex; for orientation I can specify not merely whether I am gay or straight but also could identify as Bisexual; Asexual; Demisexual; Heteroflexible; Homoflexible; Lesbian; Pansexual; Queer; Questioning; or SapioSexual.

So now we move to the section where people position themselves for their own searches and for where and how they appear when other folks search for potential partners. I see that I can be looking for women, for men, or for "everyone". And I can be included in searches for men, for women, or for "everyone".

*scowl*

I do not identify as "transgender" (although I've been told that I could, that I qualify). I think most transgender people wish to be perceived as the sex/gender that they identify as, which is generally (but not always) going to be a "binary" identity — either "man" or "woman" (or "male" or "female", if you prefer).

I, on the other hand, would like it better if I could specify that I only come up in searches for male femmes or male girls or male women etc.; I do have more granular control over who I am searching for via other portions of the search choices, but gender is narrowly defined on OKCupid in the search portion.

Last edited by AHunter3; 11-14-2017 at 04:57 PM.
  #142  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:52 PM
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This was mostly focused on gay men, in my understanding -- gay women certainly experienced difficulties, but if I have my facts right, gay men were more likely to be beaten or killed for being gay. The social stigma was stronger against gay men than gay women, I think.
Among other things, because of the visibility issue. Between women being allowed to be more affectionate in public with their friends than men, lesbians of a certain age being as invisible as any other woman of the same age, and lots of the people making ruckuses being males who only think of lesbians in terms of porn... the notion of "the lesbian next door" never came up. And if a woman was assaulted or raped for refusing to have sex with a man, it wasn't specifically for being a lesbian, even if that could be one of the terms used as an insult by the attacker.
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  #143  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:54 PM
Una Persson Una Persson is offline
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True. And if I was on the "Men Seeking Transgender" section of a dating website, it would be clear I was looking to date a transgender person. To me, "Men Seeking Women" means "Men Seeking Gender-Typical Women".
So really this all boils down to you don't believe I'm a woman. I'm either a man to you, or something else.

What you posted above pretty much seals the deal as far as the discussion goes. Unless you believe I or people like me are "women," then there's no meeting of the minds possible.
  #144  
Old 11-14-2017, 04:57 PM
Miller Miller is offline
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That's up to them. Deceit is usually wrong, IMO, but sometimes it's reasonable and acceptable, again IMO.
Sorry, but it sounds like you're saying that a transwoman identifying as just a "woman" is deceitful, and I'm about 99.99% sure that's not what you meant to say.
  #145  
Old 11-14-2017, 05:00 PM
iiandyiiii iiandyiiii is online now
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Sorry, but it sounds like you're saying that a transwoman identifying as just a "woman" is deceitful, and I'm about 99.99% sure that's not what you meant to say.
Yes, my mistake. I was thinking the options were ciswoman or transwoman.

Last edited by iiandyiiii; 11-14-2017 at 05:00 PM.
  #146  
Old 11-14-2017, 05:54 PM
Guinastasia Guinastasia is online now
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Didn't we have a thread on something like this before?
  #147  
Old 11-14-2017, 09:35 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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I would rather know up front so I don't waste my time on a date with someone that I wouldn't have sex with.
Nothing wrong with that. But in that case, it's up to you to make it clear up front that you want to know this, rather than expecting a complete stranger to magically figure out what you want to know without your telling them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972
As said above, why would I ask every woman I meet if they are transgendered so I know not to date them when it's easier for the small amount of women who are transgender to just say "Just so you know, I'm a transgender woman"?
It's not up to you to decide what's "easier" for another person to say about themselves to a potential date.

If you don't want to date transwomen, it's your responsibility to put that on the table, just like it's your responsibility to put any other potential dealbreaker on the table.

If for some reason you want to conceal this preference of yours from potential dates, then you have to take the risk that some woman you might want to date might be transgender. That risk is the price you pay for not being honest up front about what you want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972
I honestly don't see what the upside to keeping it a secret is.
I honestly don't see what the upside is to expecting other people to guess your dating preferences rather than being honest about them up front. You're the one concerned about this issue, you should be the one to raise it. Why are you making such a fuss about being honest with women about this issue that you claim is so important to you in a potential dating partner?

This attitude would be simply incomprehensible in any other type of shopping-around situation. If I'm buying a new car and I don't want one that's built in Mexico, for example, I tell the salesperson as soon as they start showing me different models that I don't want a car built in Mexico.

I don't wait till we've found a car I like and taken it for a test drive and agreed on a payment plan and found out that the vehicle I want has to be shipped from Hermosillo, and THEN throw a hissy fit because the salesperson didn't happen to tell me earlier that the car was built in Mexico. That's just stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manson1972
What possible good can come from not disclosing something like that?
Same good as can come from not disclosing any other item of personal information to some jackass stranger you just met on a dating website. Once again, it's not up to you to decide what other people should reveal about themselves to potential dates.
  #148  
Old 11-14-2017, 09:44 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Back in my day, I would go to a bar or nightclub and it would never cross my mind to say "Hey can I buy you a drink, btw I'm not into transwomen so if you're transgendered, please tell me now"
Why should anybody else care what crosses or doesn't cross your mind? The point is that if you feel this issue is important in your dating life, it's up to you to make that known, rather than requiring strangers to guess it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damuri Ajashi
The burden is being placed on where it rests most lightly. The transgender person is what we call the least cost avoider.
Like I said, it's not up to you to decide what other people should reveal about themselves to strangers. If transgender identity is something you want to know about certain strangers, or if you want to avoid dating people who are transgender, it's not their responsibility to guess that without being told.
  #149  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:04 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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They're not entirely separate, though. As general societal acceptance of transgender people increases, romantic rejection will naturally diminish along with (though probably not to the same extent as) violence and discrimination against them.
Ok. And how is failing to disclose transgender stairs going to get us there a second faster?

Quote:
Well, that wouldn't be very informative phrased in such a way, because AFAIK most transgender women don't and never did actually identify as men. That's why they're, you know, transgender women.

The correct way to ask such a question would be more along the lines of "Do you identify as transgender?" or "Were you female-assigned at birth?"
I don't think most people are going to know enough to put it in those words.

Quote:
And yes, if it is so important to you to know such information right at the very start of a dating relationship, then it is up to you to make that clear. Whether you do so by asking individual dates about their gender identity, or saying "no transgender women please" in your online profile, or whatever, the responsibility for clarifying your preferences rests with you.


Why? Why is it up to the other person to second-guess what you consider important to disclose without your telling them?

That seems just stupid to me. You're the one who knows what's important to you; you should be the one bringing up the issues that are important to you. Expecting a total stranger to know what's important to you is unrealistic.


So what? People withhold "material facts" of all sorts from potential dating partners all the time. It's not their responsibility to magically know in advance which "material facts" you consider disqualifying or dealbreakers.
Because, you are the last cost avoider. If the world ever gets to the punt where the vary majority of people are indifferent to the issue then you would be correct but until then, the burden is on you.
  #150  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:12 PM
Damuri Ajashi Damuri Ajashi is offline
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Because Match and OKCupid stunningly endorse the gender binary. For the initial sort, the person creating the profile gets to specify Male or Female.
What percentage of the population is not male or female (whether gay or straight)?
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