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  #951  
Old 12-05-2019, 10:44 AM
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North Korea:
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"If any language and expressions stoking the atmosphere of confrontation are used once again on purpose at a crucial moment as now, that must really be diagnosed as the relapse of the dotage of a dotard."
  #952  
Old 12-05-2019, 10:49 AM
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Sounds like someone's been consulting with Tulsi Gabbard's rhetoric coach.
  #953  
Old 12-05-2019, 11:00 AM
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"The relapse of the dotage of a dotard" is Trump in a nutshell.
  #954  
Old 12-05-2019, 12:33 PM
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We know that North Korea is going to start ramping up the pressure in an effort to get sanctions lifted, and pressure in this context means increasingly obvious displays of advanced military capabilities.

If (when) North Korea reignites tensions, it will embolden criticism of Trump's detente and make it more likely that he would respond to escalation with counter-escalation and even force. Moreover, Trump has fewer foreign policy experts to lean on now than he did when this thread started.
  #955  
Old 12-07-2019, 05:14 PM
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"denuclearization is off the table" according to N. Korea officials.

Perhaps the OP can now ask the mods to change the title of this thread to "Trump the Dupe? N. Korea plays him"
  #956  
Old 12-07-2019, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
"denuclearization is off the table" according to N. Korea officials.

Perhaps the OP can now ask the mods to change the title of this thread to "Trump the Dupe? N. Korea plays him"
It isn't Trump who is getting played. It's his base and his apologists. They want to be played, and he's obliging. This is going to continue until he is out of office.

Trump is indifferent to whether North Korea denuclearizes. He's just pulling bullshit theatrics to make it look like he's winning. Now that the denuclearization bullshit is played out, he'll pivot to some other bullshit story that his base will eagerly believe for as long as it's necessary.
  #957  
Old 12-07-2019, 06:11 PM
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I'd just like to sit back and remark upon how utterly absurd the OP of this thread is, and that it's almost unbelievable that some folks really thought this was a possibility with this President. It was eminently foreseeable that the Trump foreign policy WRT North Korea would be bumbling, chaotic, and nonsensical, with no significant positive results.
  #958  
Old 12-07-2019, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by iiandyiiii View Post
I'd just like to sit back and remark upon how utterly absurd the OP of this thread is, and that it's almost unbelievable that some folks really thought this was a possibility with this President. It was eminently foreseeable that the Trump foreign policy WRT North Korea would be bumbling, chaotic, and nonsensical, with no significant positive results.
Some might claim that a three year interval of 'peace' with North Korea is a positive result. If you believe(d) that NK will never relinquish its nuclear weapons (which needed no confirmation IMO), the best one could hope for is a prolongation of the status quo, a relatively peaceful one. So it is not a totally absurd belief.

ETA: It is definitely absurd though to attribute any rational, considered plan to Trump.

Last edited by KarlGauss; 12-07-2019 at 06:41 PM.
  #959  
Old 12-07-2019, 07:02 PM
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Some might claim that a three year interval of 'peace' with North Korea is a positive result.
I'm really not sure it counts as a positive that a sham diplomatic effort took 3 years to collapse and leave us in a more dangerous position than before.

I am glad we didn't have a nuclear war in the past 3 years, but we don't get to live in that 3-year period indefinitely. The bill is now due. We traded those 3 years of detente for the current reality in which NK diplomatic and military position has strengthened, and the US diplomatic position has weakened.
  #960  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:12 AM
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North Korea is no longer waiting for the end of the year: North Korea says it carried out ‘very important test’

Trump is a dupe. He did everything Kim wanted: he backed off and allowed NK to carry on with their plans with little or no scrutiny.
Quote:
North Korea said Sunday it carried out a “very important test” at its long-range rocket launch site that will have a key effect on the country’s strategic position.

The Korean Central News Agency said the test was conducted at the Sohae Satellite Launching Ground on Saturday afternoon. It said that the result of the test was reported to the Central Committee of the ruling Workers’ Party.

The test results will have “an important effect on changing the strategic position of (North Korea) once again in the near future,” the agency reported.

The report didn’t say what the test was about. But media reports say a new satellite image indicated North Korea may be preparing to resume testing engines used to power satellite launchers at the site.
Quote:
The U.N. bans North Korea from launching satellites because it is considered a test of long-range missile technology.

After repeated failures, North Korea successfully put a satellite into orbit for the first time in 2012 in a launch from the same site. North Korea had another successful satellite launch in 2016.

At the United Nations, a statement released by North Korea’s U.N. ambassador, Kim Song, said that denuclearization had “already gone out of the negotiation table.” It said North Korea does not need to have lengthy talks with the United States as the end-of-year deadline set by its leader Kim Jong Un for substantial U.S. concessions in nuclear diplomacy looms.
Which means, they already got what they wanted, for the most part.
  #961  
Old 12-08-2019, 08:27 AM
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I could see the North Korean nutjob trying to hit an uninhabited US island with a missile. Something like one of the Aleutians.
  #962  
Old 12-08-2019, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
Some might claim that a three year interval of 'peace' with North Korea is a positive result.
Yeah, man. The number of American troops dying in the Second Korean War was really appalling. Letting our men and women in uniform come home is 100% positive.

(Maybe I'm missing something here--but what are you talking about?)
  #963  
Old 12-08-2019, 08:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
North Korea is no longer waiting for the end of the year: North Korea says it carried out ‘very important test’

Trump is a dupe. He did everything Kim wanted: he backed off and allowed NK to carry on with their plans with little or no scrutiny.Which means, they already got what they wanted, for the most part.
It was wise, I think, to back off and engage with North Korea -- that part of the equation wasn't wrong. But it was damn wrong to engage without a realistic game plan. The only thing Trump got out of this that was in any conceivable way positive was an unprecedented, and limited, period of detente with a dangerous despot.

But the threat of a North Korean conflict never went away because he fundamentally misunderstood what Kim was asking for, and even if others did understand his motives, they insisted on sticking to an outdated game plan that insisted on meeting US demands first -- unrealistic demands, I might add -- before any sort of real negotiation could take place.

Trump's reckless trade war with China didn't help, either. Where's the incentive for China to enforce sanctions now? And now South Korea and Japan both have to seriously question the value of their alliance with the US. Under normal circumstances, that value would be self-evident: every single president up to this point, Republican and Democrat, realized the importance of that alliance for all parties. Trump seriously does not have the slightest fucking clue what he's doing, and his damn fanboys better wake up and smell the shitcake that's baking in the oven.
  #964  
Old 12-08-2019, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KarlGauss View Post
Some might claim that a three year interval of 'peace' with North Korea is a positive result.
Quote:
Originally Posted by asahi View Post
It was wise, I think, to back off and engage with North Korea -- that part of the equation wasn't wrong. But it was damn wrong to engage without a realistic game plan. The only thing Trump got out of this that was in any conceivable way positive was an unprecedented, and limited, period of detente with a dangerous despot.
I'm with Left Hand of Dorkness on this one: what the fuck are you two talking about?

How is the past 3 years any different than the previous 20? A Kim is still in power and he's been advancing his countries nuclear weapons goals steadily. If anything, he's had less resistance from the US and other nations since Trump took office; it's been easier for North Korea to work towards their goals these past few years.

Trump has squandered three entire years with respect to North Korea and he's done it in such a way that the fourth year can already be written off.
  #965  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
Trump has squandered three entire years with respect to North Korea and he's done it in such a way that the fourth year can already be written off.
And somehow managed to piss of pretty much all of our allies in the region.
  #966  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Snowboarder Bo View Post
I'm with Left Hand of Dorkness on this one: what the fuck are you two talking about?

How is the past 3 years any different than the previous 20? A Kim is still in power and he's been advancing his countries nuclear weapons goals steadily. If anything, he's had less resistance from the US and other nations since Trump took office; it's been easier for North Korea to work towards their goals these past few years.

Trump has squandered three entire years with respect to North Korea and he's done it in such a way that the fourth year can already be written off.
I'm not sure what your disagreement is about. I agree that Trump has made it easy for North Korea to pursue his nuclear ambitions. My only point was that Trump -- and I think it's a case of a broken clock just happening to be right twice a day -- had an opening to engage Kim in a manner that could have turned out to be productive.

But as I said in my post, Trump's team -- and probably because his team is himself -- had absolutely no game plan. So while the engagement part was, in my view, the right step toward progress, it was squandered because Trump fundamentally misunderstood how to use his opportunity to make substantive progress, and for that, he would have had to talk about suspending a portion of the sanctions in exchange for a verifiable system of suspending his weapons program.

What we needed was a North Korean version of the Iranian deal -- something that allows a stubbornly hostile regime like North Korea to have a motivation to play nice with the US and other global powers. My view is that Kim is not using this opportunity to say 'Ha ha, you're a sucker, fat ass!' -- I think what Kim really wants now is a deal that suspends sanctions.

This is an extremely dangerous situation for the very reason that Kim is now to the point at which he will most surely engage in provocation in order to get sanctions stopped. If I'm reading it right, though, he's at a point where he's feeling more confident about his ability to survive these sanctions, and he's confident that he can discourage any kind of military strike against him, which leads me to believe he must think that he has - and he probably does have - some pretty impressive bombs and missiles to play with. And he's about to show us what he's got. And as always, it's going to be how the military and his the CiC responds to that challenge.
  #967  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Chisquirrel View Post
And somehow managed to piss of pretty much all of our allies in the region.
Worse, we're losing serious credibility as anything other than being a pain in the rectum. Japan and South Korea must now question why they're hosting over 100,000 military personnel between the two of them when we're basically telling them every day "Sorry, pal - you're on your own." What the US has gotten out of that alliance was the ability to project power. It's losing that now, and it's not just NK that benefits, but also China and Russia.
  #968  
Old 12-08-2019, 02:48 PM
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America’s influence, once so dominant, waning under Trump:
Quote:
Three years into Donald Trump’s presidency, America’s global influence is waning. In interviews with The Associated Press, diplomats, foreign officials and scholars from numerous countries describe a changing world order in which the United States has less of a central role.

And in many ways, that’s just fine with the White House. Trump campaigned on an ″America First″ foreign policy and says a strong United States will mean a stronger world.

“The future doesn’t belong to globalists,” Trump told the U.N. General Assembly in September. “The future belongs to patriots.”

Trump insists he’s abandoning globalism for bilateral ties more beneficial to the U.S..

But there’s little sign of that.

Instead, once-close allies — France, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Mexico, Turkey, Germany and more — have quietly edged away from Washington over the past three years.
Quote:
Because those longtime friends of Washington? Many are now looking elsewhere for alliances. Very often, they look to China or Russia.

In Islamabad, for example, where the U.S. was once seen as the only game in town, Pakistan’s government now gets military aid and training from Russia and billions of dollars in investment and loans from China. In the Philippines, President Rodrigo Duterte is nurturing closer ties to Beijing despite his nervousness over its expansionism in the South China Sea. In Egypt, long one of America’s closest Middle Eastern allies, Cairo now lets Russian military planes use its bases and the two countries recently held joint air force exercises. In Ukraine, which has looked to U.S. military aid for years to try to keep an expansionist Russia in check, Trump’s questionable loyalty is seen as creating a dangerous vacuum.

“Once the U.S. role in Europe weakens, Russia’s influence inevitably grows,” Vadim Karasev, head of the Kyiv-based Institute of Global Strategies said.
Quote:
China has been delighted by what it sees as the voluntary abdication of U.S. leadership, particularly on free trade and climate change.

Trump’s pullout from the planned Trans-Pacific Partnership, for example, opened the way for Beijing to push ahead with its own alternative free-trade agreement.

Meanwhile, China has gone from being a climate change curmudgeon to sometimes reaping praise as a global leader on the issue.

The White House’s National Security Council did not respond to requests for comment about this story.

Last edited by Snowboarder Bo; 12-08-2019 at 02:49 PM. Reason: fixed coding
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