No, Mr. NY Times art critic...a dildo up your butt is NOT art

[Autolycus]

Originally Posted by PlainJain

Why not address what I wrote instead of what you wished I would have. I made no "bold proclamation", I said "IMO". Saying they had no soul, IMO is the same as saying they didn't move me.

I am an artist. I have had several successful shows and openings. I have taught art and have sold art internationally. I also worked for quite a few years as an illustrator and a graphic artist. None of that, however, makes my opinion about art more valid than yours. Art is subjective. But I do have an opinion as a maker of both kinds of art. And my opinion is that Rockwell was a talented draftsman, craftsman and illustrator - not a true artist.

Fair enough. I apologize for reading too much into your prior post.

[Muffin]

In other words, Rockwell was not a true artist because he had broad appeal, whereas the anal didldo dancers are true artists because they have a very limited appeal to a self-appointed and self-annointed cadre.

I figure that they are all artists, going in their own directions, with their own followings.

[Miller]

Originally Posted by Muffin

In other words, Rockwell was not a true artist because he had broad appeal, whereas the anal didldo dancers are true artists because they have a very limited appeal to a self-appointed and self-annointed cadre.

Which post here did you get that idea from?

[Muffin]

In the great tradition of Cloaca, Canned Artist Shit, and the Dildo Dancers, I pulled it out of my ass.

[Measure for Measure]

Originally Posted by Muffin

In the great tradition of Cloaca, Canned Artist Shit, and the Dildo Dancers, I pulled it out of my ass.

Now that's art. A round of applause for Muffin!


I have a more practical view of these matters. Back in the neighborhood we weren't too sophisticated, but we knew what we liked - and what we liked were cliches. That said, I say that if there's a box office, then it's art. So Dancing on a Dildo qualifies as does Canned Artist Crapola, but I'm afraid Muffin's Post Contemplating on Western Art does not. It grieves me too.

Originally Posted by PlainJain

...And my opinion is that Rockwell was a talented draftsman, craftsman and illustrator - not a true artist.

Back when I was younger, oh say 24 hours ago, I used to take that position. But now I figure that to the extent that Rockwell's craft was developed in Art School, then he's probably an artist, as is any other -er- graphic artist.

As it happens, I don't much care for Rockwell's work: I find the emotions that he depicts to be overwrought and unrealistic. But you can find any number of works in the 19th century Western Canon that strike me the same way. So I dislike Rockwell because I'm a philistine -salt of the earth really- and not a snob.

I used to think that art was a combination of craft and theme. Rockwell's work has both. So Jane -seriously- by what criteria is Rockwell's work not art? It seems you think it lacks soul. Are you saying the themes he worked on are too banal? That can't be right, given Rembrandt's subject matter. I agree Rockwell's work doesn't challenge me too much (though Karl's counter-examples are much appreciated, and I've read professional critics who think Rockwell was under-rated). So while I can think of a lot of art that I consider better, I'm having trouble putting Rockwell in a different category than any other artist working on a commission with strict commercial restrictions.

Hm. Maybe that's it. "Strict commercial restrictions." The problem there is that, uncomfortably, commercial pressures can be good for art at times. Some of the experimental stuff is pretty banal after all, though it can provide a certain frisson.

[moejoe]

Originally Posted by Zebra

Suck my cock you self righteous asshole.

Ah, I miss New York.

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by BrainGlutton

A dildo up a dancer's butt is fuckin' hilarious; and farce is art.

All I know is that Shakespeare's greatest farce was the one that blew all the stained glass out of the cathedral.

[Muffin]

Originally Posted by Siam Sam

All I know is that Shakespeare's greatest farce was the one that blew all the stained glass out of the cathedral.

And Chaucer's was fart interrupted analingus.

[Guinastasia]

Originally Posted by Qin Shi Huangdi

Definitely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_realism

Compare this to Jackson Pollock or Andy Warhol...

If you're ever in Pittsburgh, visit the Warhol museum. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. I was, actually. I'm still not a huge fan of his work, but it's still pretty cool.

[Beware of Doug]

Originally Posted by moejoe

Ah, I miss New York.

It's understandable. Some of us, when boarding a train, always wish we could ride in the engine.

[Ravenman]

Originally Posted by fumster

Why are you being such a prescriptivist when it comes to cars? A turnip is a car, a thought is a car, the thought of a turnip is a car. Anything can be a car. Now the thought of a turnip might not get you to work, but who says cars need to be functional? It's only small-minded, mid-westerners who try and limit cars.

I suppose you've made a reasonable argument that the turnip between your ears is actually a "brain," but I still have my doubts.

[Vinyl Turnip]

[Maeglin]

I just got a timely email from the Metropolitan Museum of Art inviting me to a members only preview of a gigantic, high-profile exhibit on, you guessed it, Andy Warhol.

Regarding Warhol: Sixty Artists, Fifty Years is an in-depth exhibition that explores the multifaceted impact of Warhol by displaying his work alongside examples by sixty artists across three generations, including Chuck Close, Robert Mapplethorpe, and Cindy Sherman.

I'm certainly going to go. And when I look at a Mapplethorpe, perhaps a photograph of a blunt instrument jammed into the head of a penis, I will be ineluctably reminded of the OP and Qin.

[PlainJain]

Originally Posted by Measure for Measure

So Jane -seriously- by what criteria is Rockwell's work not art? It seems you think it lacks soul. Are you saying the themes he worked on are too banal? That can't be right, given Rembrandt's subject matter. I agree Rockwell's work doesn't challenge me too much (though Karl's counter-examples are much appreciated, and I've read professional critics who think Rockwell was under-rated). So while I can think of a lot of art that I consider better, I'm having trouble putting Rockwell in a different category than any other artist working on a commission with strict commercial restrictions.

It can be successfully argued that any 2-D construct can be called art. Certainly NR had some very clever and moving pieces. Without getting too hoity-toity, I believe it comes down to composition and intent. There are many clever and moving logos, for example, but I wouldn't call them art for the purposes of this thread, but more broadly they could be. Composition-wise I doubt Rockwell was under too many strict commercial restrictions from his editors. The restrictions probably came from himself (a lot of his art was composed to sell magazines). And as such were too contrived to be Art, imo. Maybe I consider works art when they appear to be created from the same space that I create art from. For example, I have sold hundreds (maybe thousands) of commercial art pieces. I don't cringe when I look back on them, they are just a product I created for money. A job - regardless of how beautiful anyone else thought they were. But I had a built in buyer. When I do an art show I create works from a place that seems to have a life of it's own. I feel a need to create them. And I believe it shows in the final product. It's like bearing a part of myself to throw that out to the world.

Hm. Maybe that's it. "Strict commercial restrictions." The problem there is that, uncomfortably, commercial pressures can be good for art at times.

I disagree strongly. I admit I'm no art historian but I believe the opposite is true.

[Muffin]

I disagree. Commerce has no bearing at all as to whether something is art or not.

[kaylasdad99]

Originally Posted by Slithy Tove

Subsequently, no one ever dildoed Pablo Picasso's asshole.

Based on some of the Picasso's I've seen,* I'm not sure how one would go about FINDING Picasso's asshole...















*(in reproduction only, of course)

[Muffin]

Just google Picasso "Study of a Torso, After a Plaster Cast".