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  #1  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:17 PM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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Invade Puerto Rico! NOW!!!

Goddamit! Invade Puerto Rico! Send in the troops, the cargo planes, the "MASH" units, everything we got and everything we can beg or borrow! There is no possible excuse for Americans dying from water-borne diseases except if we have done everything humanly possible.

The military has medical supplies and trained people, bulldozers, engineers, and dedicated personnel. Do it, goddamit, just Do It! If it fails, we still learn something we will likely need to know again. What is better, clearing roads that exist, or cutting quick and dirty paths just good enough for trucks. So on and so forth.

Hell, I'll even cheer for some chin-jutting ironass giving a gung-ho speech! "The enemy is American suffering,misery and death. Go and kill the enemy!" Whatever it takes. I will personally install a flagpole by my double-wide, raise the flag every morning, take it down every night, pledge allegiance three times, and even sing that god-awful song!

But Goddamit! These are our people, and if they are not our people, who's people are they? If it was the Iranians or the Belgians doing this shit to us, we would be on them like Trump on cake!
  #2  
Old 10-12-2017, 01:20 PM
Happy Lendervedder Happy Lendervedder is offline
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Concur.
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Old 10-12-2017, 01:27 PM
Sunny Daze Sunny Daze is offline
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And we get this nonsense from his twitter feed today.

Quote:
Bumbler in Chief
...We cannot keep FEMA, the Military & the First Responders, who have been amazing (under the most difficult circumstances) in P.R. forever!
Because leaving is clearly the right thing to do. I'm guessing FEMA is still in Texas and Florida, with no plans to leave. Haven't heard him say "boo" about CA yet though.
  #4  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:11 PM
Spiderman Spiderman is offline
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Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
Goddamit! Invade Puerto Rico! Send in the troops, the cargo planes, the "MASH" units, everything we got and everything we can beg or borrow!
But if we invade them, then they become our territory (Ummm, Spidey, I got something to tell you)

& they speak some furren langwitch & we don't let furreniers in this country! (Ummm, Spidey, I got something to tell you).
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:16 PM
madsircool madsircool is online now
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Originally Posted by Sunny Daze View Post
And we get this nonsense from his twitter feed today.



Because leaving is clearly the right thing to do. I'm guessing FEMA is still in Texas and Florida, with no plans to leave. Haven't heard him say "boo" about CA yet though.
Except for this

http://www.abc10.com/mobile/article/...ires/482290040
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Old 10-12-2017, 02:33 PM
John DiFool John DiFool is offline
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Originally Posted by elucidator View Post
But Goddamit! These are our people, and if they are not our people, who's people are they? If it was the Iranians or the Belgians doing this shit to us, we would be on them like Trump on cake!
I assume that would be a urinal cake.
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  #7  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:44 PM
Chronos Chronos is offline
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Yeah, the first responders in Puerto Rico are in difficult circumstances. You know who else is in difficult circumstances? The Puerto Ricans.
  #8  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:46 PM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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Trump speak:

"If they wanted to be Americans, they should have been born in America, not on some Island in the middle of the ocean somewhere. And anyway, they should be doing this all themselves. What are they, lazy? They should be happy with those paper towels."
  #9  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:47 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Some of you guys might not know this, but Puerto Rico is AN ISLAND. An island in THE OCEAN. A VERY BIG OCEAN!!
  #10  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:51 PM
jayjay jayjay is offline
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o/`Nobody knows in America,
Puerto Rico's in America... o/`
  #11  
Old 10-12-2017, 02:52 PM
gnoitall gnoitall is offline
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Inb4 "we only invade brown people countries if they have oil."
  #12  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:01 PM
silenus silenus is offline
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The Army could do it without White House approval. Declare it an "impromptu readiness exercise" and send most of Fort Sam Houston to San Juan. And why aren't the Seabees there already?

Last edited by silenus; 10-12-2017 at 03:03 PM.
  #13  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:05 PM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Originally Posted by gnoitall View Post
Inb4 "we only invade brown people countries if they have oil."
This is American territory and it's being threatened with a military invasion. We need to send troops to defend our island.
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:05 PM
up_the_junction up_the_junction is offline
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Got as many votes in PR as he has in New York City. Just another distraction technique from this seemingly endless run of policy failures.
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Old 10-12-2017, 03:35 PM
GIGObuster GIGObuster is offline
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Originally Posted by gnoitall View Post
Inb4 "we only invade brown people countries if they have oil."
Well....

https://petroglobalnews.com/2013/12/...gas-usgs-says/

We should invade indeed... [/sarcasm]

Last edited by GIGObuster; 10-12-2017 at 03:35 PM.
  #16  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:39 PM
RTFirefly RTFirefly is offline
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Maybe they should pull a Grand Fenwick, and declare war on the U.S.
  #17  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:44 PM
XT XT is offline
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Invade Puerto Rico! NOW!!!
Oh sure, you say that now, but what about when the massive insurgency starts?



Puerto Rico is going to be Trump's New Orleans, though frankly, his administration is a lot more like a monkey fucking a football than even Bush et al managed to be. Sadly, this is going to be no comfort to the Puerto Rican's who are American citizens (I wish someone would inform Trump of this, though he's probably immune to facts).
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  #18  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:47 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
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I didn't realize that Jerry Brown and Trump were on speaking terms.
  #19  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:49 PM
ivylass ivylass is offline
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There was a Navy base there at one point, mostly closed at the request of the Puerto Ricans. It's now a small Army base, if I understand Wikipedia correctly. Ivylad (former submariner) and I wondered if having an open Navy base during the hurricane would have allowed aid to be rendered more quickly.
  #20  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:55 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Trump speak:

"If they wanted to be Americans, they should have been born in America, not on some Island in the middle of the ocean somewhere. And anyway, they should be doing this all themselves. What are they, lazy? They should be happy with those paper towels."
"And anyway, when I bulldoze the ruined shacks, cars, phone poles, and other crap and put in my golf courses, swimming pools, and luxury condos, THEN the island will be better than ever! Plus, I'll be creating jobs for all those brown-skinned Spaniards. Win-win!"
  #21  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:00 PM
Sherrerd Sherrerd is offline
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My guess is that the Trump administration WILL send in troops---but not until a couple of hundred thousand Puerto Ricans have died from preventable water-borne diseases and from violence inspired by severe lack of basic resources. When the headlines are filled with "mass slaughter of Puerto Ricans by Puerto Ricans, over fuel and food" stories, then Trump can declare that the island must be pacified via martial law, with land being confiscated, Puerto Ricans put into camps, etc.

I'd finger Bannon and Stephen Miller as the authors of the plot, with useful advice coming via Vlad whenever they can communicate privately. The Puerto Rico endeavor will be a valuable and instructive dry run, for the project of eventually ending that pesky US rule of law thing, altogether.
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  #22  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:02 PM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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If only we had some military personnel who speak Spanish! Of course, "agua" and "comida" is going to cover a lot of bases. Don't even have to ask where the train station is, because it isn't!

*Just now getting over the tv, veterans groups volunteers, picking up boxes of food and supplies and carrying them to people who have no roads! That's the flag I pledge allegiance to! That's my America!

You got a better one? No. You don't.
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  #23  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:04 PM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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Originally Posted by ivylass View Post
There was a Navy base there at one point, mostly closed at the request of the Puerto Ricans. It's now a small Army base, if I understand Wikipedia correctly. Ivylad (former submariner) and I wondered if having an open Navy base during the hurricane would have allowed aid to be rendered more quickly.
Its a Navy base? So, it has like, docks? That could be handy.
  #24  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:31 PM
Blank Slate Blank Slate is offline
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Got as many votes in PR as he has in New York City. Just another distraction technique from this seemingly endless run of policy failures.
In a semi-bizarre twist, Puerto Ricans cannot vote in presidential elections, but if they move to one of the fifty states, they can.
  #25  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:42 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Originally Posted by Blank Slate View Post
In a semi-bizarre twist, Puerto Ricans cannot vote in presidential elections, but if they move to one of the fifty states, they can.
Emphasis added.

Well, mystery solved! No wonder he doesn't give a rat's ass about them!
  #26  
Old 10-12-2017, 06:46 PM
jayjay jayjay is offline
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In a semi-bizarre twist, Puerto Ricans cannot vote in presidential elections, but if they move to one of the fifty states, they can.
Like, to escape a horrible natural disaster and a non-recovery-effort?
  #27  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:00 PM
DinoR DinoR is offline
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We "invaded" Puerto Rico right after the hurricane. (Cite)

Performing Defense Support to Civil Authorities is right there in NORTHCOM's mission statement (Cite with my underline added) - "USNORTHCOM partners to conduct homeland defense, civil support and security cooperation to defend and secure the United States and its interests." They "invaded" areas hit by Hurricane Irma (including in CONUS) and then added operations in areas affected by Maria (which included areas like the Virgin Islands.) DOD didn't even need to invade. The Puerto Rico National Guard (authorized strength 8,400) was already "occupying" the area and was involved in the territory level planning to respond prior to landfall of the hurricane. Puerto Rico also has a territorial militia available, the Puerto Rico State Guard, that doesn't share the NG's territory/federal dual status.

As of last week (05OCT17) over 11,000 troops had been deployed to Puerto Rico with parts of the five Force Packages continuing to deploy. It was up to 13,229 DOD personnel as of 10OCT. Those numbers don't include the State Guard. It's not clear if they count the NG troops mobilized by the Governor under territorial authority or only federal assets when listing DOD personnel. troops on the island are only a part of the total invovled though. This story about setting up an incident support base at JBSA Lackland-Kelly is one example of troops not counted but committed to important sustaining operations.

There's possible issues to rant about. The Governor wasn't particularly aggressive in mobilizing the territorial forces (both NG and PRSG.) FEMA's and/or the Governor's estimates driving the initial request for support may have been bad, wrong, or both. (By law in DSCA operations DOD supports civil authorities. DOD is not in charge of the effort and can't just dictate missions or forces committed to those civil authorities.) Support for other US citizens during a period with high demand for support may have interfered with the speed and effectiveness of the response. Still the military has been responding, doing exactly the kinds of things that a couple weeks later suddenly sounds like a good idea. Some of those are issues for the after action review to improve performance for the next time. There may or may not be specific issues where committing further forces, taking into account the associated lag time to get them there and operating effectively, might make sense. It's most certainly not a case of simply not committing significant military support.

Puerto Rico is bad. Things could, and likely would, be much worse if the OP's good idea wasn't already happening.
  #28  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:21 PM
ThelmaLou ThelmaLou is offline
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Originally Posted by DinoR View Post
...

As of last week (05OCT17) over 11,000 troops had been deployed to Puerto Rico with parts of the five Force Packages continuing to deploy. It was up to 13,229 DOD personnel as of 10OCT. Those numbers don't include the State Guard. It's not clear if they count the NG troops mobilized by the Governor under territorial authority or only federal assets when listing DOD personnel. troops on the island are only a part of the total invovled though. This story about setting up an incident support base at JBSA Lackland-Kelly is one example of troops not counted but committed to important sustaining operations.

...

Puerto Rico is bad. Things could, and likely would, be much worse if the OP's good idea wasn't already happening.
Let's not hand out the awards just yet.

U.S. response in Puerto Rico pales next to actions after Haiti quake (Sept 28, 2017)

Emphasis added.
Quote:
After an earthquake shattered Haiti’s capital on Jan. 12, 2010, the U.S. military mobilized as if it were going to war.

Before dawn the next morning, an Army unit was airborne, on its way to seize control of the main airport in Port-au-Prince. Within two days, the Pentagon had 8,000 American troops en route. Within two weeks, 33 U.S. military ships and 22,000 troops had arrived. More than 300 military helicopters buzzed overhead, delivering millions of pounds of food and water.

By contrast, eight days after Hurricane Maria ripped across neighboring Puerto Rico, just 4,400 service members were participating in federal operations to assist the devastated island, an Army general told reporters Thursday. In addition, about 1,000 Coast Guard members were aiding the efforts. About 40 U.S. military helicopters were helping to deliver food and water to the 3.4 million residents of the U.S. territory, along with 10 Coast Guard helicopters.

Leaders of the humanitarian mission in Haiti said in interviews that they were dismayed by the relative lack of urgency and military muscle in the initial federal response to Puerto Rico’s catastrophe.

“I think it’s a fair ask why we’re not seeing a similar command and response,” said retired Lt. Gen. P.K. “Ken” Keen, the three-star general who commanded the U.S. military effort in Haiti, where 200,000 people died by some estimates. “The morning after, the president said we were going to respond in Port-au-Prince . . . robustly and immediately, and that gave the whole government clarity of purpose.”


Maj. Gen. James C. Witham, director of domestic operations for the National Guard Bureau, said that immediately after Maria’s landfall, Puerto Rico requested only communications equipment and fewer than 200 military police officers. By comparison, 17,567 guardsmen from 24 states were on duty in Florida a day after Hurricane Irma made landfall.
  #29  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:23 PM
carnivorousplant carnivorousplant is offline
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Originally Posted by Blank Slate View Post
In a semi-bizarre twist, Puerto Ricans cannot vote in presidential elections, but if they move to one of the fifty states, they can.
And pay taxes.
  #30  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:33 PM
John Mace John Mace is offline
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Originally Posted by Blank Slate View Post
In a semi-bizarre twist, Puerto Ricans cannot vote in presidential elections, but if they move to one of the fifty states, they can.
What's bizarre about that? The president is elected by the states, not by "the people". Puerto Rico is not a state. Neither is Wash DC., and residents could not vote for president until the constitution was amended to allow them to do so (in 1961, with the passage of the 23rd amendment). The same applies to the other US Territories: US VI, Guam, etc.

Last edited by John Mace; 10-12-2017 at 07:33 PM.
  #31  
Old 10-12-2017, 07:42 PM
Mighty_Girl Mighty_Girl is offline
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Maybe they should pull a Grand Fenwick, and declare war on the U.S.
You stole my idea.
  #32  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:32 PM
Northern Piper Northern Piper is offline
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What's bizarre about that? The president is elected by the states, not by "the people". Puerto Rico is not a state. Neither is Wash DC., and residents could not vote for president until the constitution was amended to allow them to do so (in 1961, with the passage of the 23rd amendment). The same applies to the other US Territories: US VI, Guam, etc.


Of course the people in one of your colonies aren't allowed to vote. That's one of the points of a colony.
  #33  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:45 PM
Blank Slate Blank Slate is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
What's bizarre about that? The president is elected by the states, not by "the people". Puerto Rico is not a state. Neither is Wash DC., and residents could not vote for president until the constitution was amended to allow them to do so (in 1961, with the passage of the 23rd amendment). The same applies to the other US Territories: US VI, Guam, etc.
Good job cracking the wiki. The semi-bizarre comment was referring to the oddity of quasi-citizenship. I know why, dude.

Do you spend your whole day hoping to correct someone?
  #34  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:02 PM
purplehearingaid purplehearingaid is offline
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Trump speak:

"If they wanted to be Americans, they should have been born in America, not on some Island in the middle of the ocean somewhere. And anyway, they should be doing this all themselves. What are they, lazy? They should be happy with those paper towels."
WTF ! Did the damn fool really say this !!?? Doesn't he how PR became apart of USA !

https://www.puertoricoreport.com/pue.../#.WeAPnOlFCM8
  #35  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:06 PM
Buttercup Smith Buttercup Smith is offline
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Or they could do this and succeed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conch_Republic. Oh, never mind Trump would love that.
  #36  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:26 PM
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You stole my idea.
And mine. If we invade, we'd have to give them foreign aid, or a Marshall Plan - exactly Grand Fenwick's idea, of course.
  #37  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:27 PM
Voyager Voyager is offline
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In a semi-bizarre twist, Puerto Ricans cannot vote in presidential elections, but if they move to one of the fifty states, they can.
Interestingly, it appears many are moving to Florida because of the storm. And they are all Democrats. Which might get interesting.
  #38  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:35 PM
DinoR DinoR is offline
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Originally Posted by ThelmaLou View Post
Let's not hand out the awards just yet.
Your quoted piece points out one of the issues in getting forces there in a timely fashion. The territorial government requested 200 MPs and communications equipment from the Federal government. As I pointed out the Governor also didn't fully mobilize the National Guard either before or immediately after. Governors are really important in disaster response; they are in charge of it. The Federal Government supports state's or territories in disaster response with most of the outside assets needed - personnel, money, etc. Sending troops to perform disaster response that the Governor doesn't want is a big legal issue.

That doesn't mean there weren't balls dropped at the federal level. I don't know if anybody at the federal level seriously looked at the territorial government request and asked the obvious hard question - "200 MPs and some commo....you gotta be fucking kidding me?!?" The interplay between all of the assets and between federal and state/territory in a complicated legal structure is also ripe for lots of friction to make even good plans fail. NORTHCOM planning issues while already engaged in one major incident may have contributed. I really haven't seen any coverage that does more than scratch the surface level and dig into a very complicated legal, policy, and doctrinal framework to have an opinion on how many balls got dropped and by who.

The notion that we should suddenly decide to start committing military assets to hurricane response in the OP is still profoundly ignorant. Elucidator got his wish before the good idea fairy even whispered in his ear. We've been there and done that. We've committed sizeable military forces under multiple Governors' control to support responses after back to back hurricanes. A big chunk of that support has been in Puerto Rico. In all but one of the areas we've managed to avoid the mess that is Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico is really ugly. It's not about whether we should "invade" though. At best it's a question of whether there's something else the military can do, beyond what they are already doing, given federal and territorial and federal authority authorization, in a time frame that is useful to the people of Puerto Rico.
  #39  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:40 PM
Kimstu Kimstu is offline
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Do you spend your whole day hoping to correct someone?
You... you say that like it's a bad thing...
  #40  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:11 PM
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I wonder if the Republican party has considered just how many Puerto Ricans live in Florida and still have lots of family ties there. Trump might end up turning the Sunshine State solid blue.

Last edited by asahi; 10-12-2017 at 10:11 PM.
  #41  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:28 PM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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Originally Posted by DinoR View Post
....It's not about whether we should "invade" though....
Apparently I am not familiar to you. No blame, I am an unremarkable person, a timid woodland creature foraging for nuts and berries. No reason you would know that I sometimes put more color and sarcasm in my posts than a strict recitation of fact would require. And I'm mad as Yosemite Sam after a cactus colonic.

'Course, not your fault, if you were more familiar, the sarcasm would not have eluded you. I am seldom guilty of subtlety, and I'll be more strict about it in the future.

Gotta admit, have a different perspective. For me, the image of waves of Marines hitting the beach with blankets, baby food and medicine warms my patriotic fervor. Not very practical, but still.... Its not footprints on the Moon, but its up there.
  #42  
Old 10-12-2017, 10:55 PM
doorhinge doorhinge is offline
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for historical reference -
Quote:
Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
Trump speak:

"If they wanted to be Americans, they should have been born in America, not on some Island in the middle of the ocean somewhere. And anyway, they should be doing this all themselves. What are they, lazy? They should be happy with those paper towels."

Quote:
Originally Posted by purplehearingaid View Post
WTF ! Did the damn fool really say this !!?? Doesn't he how PR became apart of USA !

https://www.puertoricoreport.com/pue.../#.WeAPnOlFCM8

Hahahaha. No, Trump did not say that. Euphonious Polemic did.
  #43  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:49 PM
t-bonham@scc.net t-bonham@scc.net is offline
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Originally Posted by asahi View Post
I wonder if the Republican party has considered just how many Puerto Ricans live in Florida and still have lots of family ties there. Trump might end up turning the Sunshine State solid blue.
Not with the restrictions that they have put on voting in Florida.
  #44  
Old 10-12-2017, 11:59 PM
Chefguy Chefguy is offline
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Originally Posted by silenus View Post
And why aren't the Seabees there already?
Hoo boy, that's been a peeve of mine for decades. There is an entire base full of Seabees sitting in Gulfport, MS. And they did respond to hurricane Camille that hit the Gulf Coast back in the 70s. They also responded to super typhoon Pamela that hit Guam in 1978, utilizing the deployed battalion there at the time. There's another base full of Seabees sitting in Port Hueneme, CA. I've never understood why they aren't called out for forest fires and the like. While it's true that they aren't trained firefighters, they have all of the equipment and transport necessary to cut huge fire breaks. At any given time, there are at least two battalions in home port for training. Mount them up! Send them out!
  #45  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:12 AM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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WTF ! Did the damn fool really say this !!?? Doesn't he how PR became apart of USA !

https://www.puertoricoreport.com/pue.../#.WeAPnOlFCM8
Poe's Law, adapted for Trump-speak. Sounds like something he might have tweeted, eh?
  #46  
Old 10-13-2017, 12:13 AM
Euphonious Polemic Euphonious Polemic is offline
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for historical reference -






Hahahaha. No, Trump did not say that. Euphonious Polemic did.
You've gotta admit, it's probably pretty close to what he said to his minders, before they slapped the phone out of his hands.
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Old 10-13-2017, 12:28 AM
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And here come the helicopters....

Saw several US military helicopters flying into the Owen Roberts Airport here in Grand Cayman earlier today. Local media is reporting that they are returning from service assisting with Hurricane Irma in the eastern Caribbean. They made a similar fuel stop in Cayman when they were deploying from their home base in Honduras.

I saw the three Apaches and two Chinooks flying in one after the other. I missed the landing of the C130. Apparently we are expecting more returning military flights tomorrow, three Marine Se Stallions.

So good to know. All done there. Nothing more to do or see. Move along.
  #48  
Old 10-13-2017, 01:15 AM
elucidator elucidator is online now
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Originally Posted by Euphonious Polemic View Post
You've gotta admit, it's probably pretty close to what he said to his minders, before they slapped the phone out of his hands.
Give it up, Euph. He totally gotcha-ya, you were trying to pull a slow one.
  #49  
Old 10-13-2017, 01:31 AM
Little Nemo Little Nemo is offline
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Originally Posted by John Mace View Post
What's bizarre about that? The president is elected by the states, not by "the people". Puerto Rico is not a state. Neither is Wash DC., and residents could not vote for president until the constitution was amended to allow them to do so (in 1961, with the passage of the 23rd amendment). The same applies to the other US Territories: US VI, Guam, etc.
All the other commonwealths get to vote.
  #50  
Old 10-13-2017, 01:33 AM
Lord Feldon Lord Feldon is offline
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Originally Posted by Little Nemo View Post
All the other commonwealths get to vote.
The Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands begs to differ.

Last edited by Lord Feldon; 10-13-2017 at 01:33 AM.
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