Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 10-01-2017, 08:53 AM
PatrickLondon PatrickLondon is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: London
Posts: 2,101
You find the people who can't stand him and get them out to vote. But to increase the numbers of people who can't stand him, you want to be able to pin what they feel to be worse about their and the country's situation on his failures.
Advertisements  
  #52  
Old 10-01-2017, 09:18 AM
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,958
Candidates won't be running against Trump; they'll be running against the perception of how the country is doing with Trump in charge. If the economy is chugging along and there are no major foreign policy debacles that get pinned on him, then he stands a good chance at re-election. People might not like Trump but they wouldn't want to vote to fix something that, in their minds, isn't broken. I do suspect that a lot more minorities will at least try to participate in the next election. But I also suspect that there will be vote suppression efforts not witnessed in years, if ever.
  #53  
Old 10-01-2017, 09:21 AM
AK84 AK84 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 13,872
How about; promise to be more extreme. Trump wants to deport illegals and build a wall, you will flog all illegals before deporting them and will drop an H-Bomb on Mexico City.
  #54  
Old 10-04-2017, 07:40 PM
PoppaSan PoppaSan is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Up nort'
Posts: 1,622
The problem to running against Trump is you have to first run against all the other contenders in your own party. Win the party faithful with one set of statements then most likely pivot about to run against Trump with another. All the while he is spewing about your change of direction while ignoring his own.
__________________
Do not regret growing older. It is a privilege denied many.

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, there will be peace
  #55  
Old 10-04-2017, 08:36 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 32,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
That's a terribly uncharitable view of your political opposition.
Someone who voted for Trump has forfeited any benefit of the doubt.
  #56  
Old 10-11-2017, 02:17 PM
epolo epolo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by octopus View Post
That's a terribly uncharitable view of your political opposition. Only death will work? No. Try figuring out what appeals and motivates people then exploit that. No need to wish for death.

What appeals to Trump voters? Hmm...

Plan 1

“Trump talked about gunning someone down on Fifth Avenue, but I’m the only candidate with the courage to actually do it!”

Plan 2

“Why won’t my opponent allow me to peel the skin from his face on national TV? What’s he hiding under there? Is he maybe ... a lizard person?!”

Plan 3

“Forget all this campaigning, debating and voting. Let’s settle this the way everyone wants to see it settled: in the ring! Available on PPV.”

Plan 4

“Let’s talk agricultural policy. I propose Brawndo for crops; it’s got what plants crave.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Morpheme Addict
  #57  
Old 10-11-2017, 03:34 PM
sleestak sleestak is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sin City
Posts: 3,729
#1. Drop the identity politics. Act as though you are really trying to put Americans first instead of putting some subset of Americans first.
#2. Stop assuming that you are better than anyone who voted for Trump. You aren't and pretending to be superior just pisses people off. Really folks, the constant refrain of 'Trump voters are dumb' isn't going to work because it isn't true. For example Trump beat Clinton with college educated whites by 4%. Calling people stupid doesn't win them over to your side.
#3.At least pretend to give a shit about anyone who lives outside of the coasts. Ideas that might fly in California and New York make little sense to people in New Mexico or Tennessee.
#4. Pick a candidate without any serious ethical issues.
#5. Consolidate gains made on the social end of things and focus on the economy.

Of course, none of those things is likely to happen.

Slee

Note, I did not vote for Trump and do not like him. Didn't like Clinton either. For that matter, as far as I can tell, pretty much all of our politicians are scum and it is our fault because we keep voting for the dirtbags.
  #58  
Old 10-11-2017, 05:15 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 32,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestak View Post
Act as though you are really trying to put Americans first instead of putting some subset of Americans first.
This is nothing more than the viewpoint of an entrenched privileged class doing everything it can to ignore bigotry, bias, and discrimination.

It's exactly was homophobes are doing when they say that gays are asking for "special rights."

What you are saying is "abandon all your principles and any attempt to make our society fairer and more just."


And what you are specifically asking of someone like me in particular is to just accept that I am a second-class citizen in my own country.

Quote:
Really folks, the constant refrain of 'Trump voters are dumb' isn't going to work because it isn't true. For example Trump beat Clinton with college educated whites by 4%. Calling people stupid doesn't win them over to your side.
It's true, it isn't lack of education. Its racial resentment and racism, or at best, indifference to racism and a whole lot of other pretty disgusting shit.


Quote:

#3.At least pretend to give a shit about anyone who lives outside of the coasts. Ideas that might fly in California and New York make little sense to people in New Mexico or Tennessee.
How exactly did the right show they cared about rural areas? Their entire platform for the last 50 years has been some kind of hatred for an other. Whether it's racial or otherwise.

Who do you think actually benefits from universal health care, family leave rights, clean air, clean water, and stuff like that?


Quote:
#4. Pick a candidate without ....
What? Is this a joke? Trump's election proves that voters don't give a shot about ethics.

In any case, no matter what candidate gets chosen, the right's propaganda machine will just invent ethical issue and then you'll be back here saying see? Not ethical enough!
[quote]
#5. Consolidate gains made on the social end of things and focus on the economy.

Of course, none of those things is likely to happen. [/quoye]

The previous president presided over the fastest economic recovery in modern history. All in the face of intransigent opposition. For more than two decades, Democratic administrations have proven they are better on economic issues than Republican ones.

If you're talking about reviving dying industries or occupations, no party is actually going to be able to fix that. The left can at at least offer assistance to a way forward where the right only offers false promises.

All of this is just apologetics and goalpost-moving.

Quote:

Note, I did not vote for Trump and do not like him. Didn't like Clinton either. For that matter, as far as I can tell, pretty much all of our politicians are scum and it is our fault because we keep voting for the dirtbags.
This is just intellectual laziness.
  #59  
Old 10-12-2017, 08:26 AM
RickJay RickJay is offline
Charter Jays Fan
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Oakville, Canada
Posts: 38,235
Well, what did Clinton's campaign do wrong?

To my eyes, it had no clearly stated set of campaign promises or messages. I could not faithfully tell you, without looking it up, what the central messages of her platform were. Even then she still got a majority of the votes, they just weren't arranged right.

If you want people to vote for you you need to give them a reason to vote for you. "I'm Hillary Clinton" is not a great reason; indeed, the most common reasons I saw repeated for voting Clinton were "she's not Donald Trump," which is compelling to me for isn't a positive reason, and "she's the most qualified candidate to ever run for President," which was untrue, not of interest to anyone, and rather obviously ignores the fact that volume of qualifications have no effect at all on which candidate wins a Presidential race; in fact, the less "qualified" candidate won the previous two battles between candidate who were both not sitting Presidents (Obama-McCain, Bush-Gore.) "I am going to do X, Y and Z" is what gets voters interested.

Trump's platform was REALLY clear. It was stupid, but it was clear; he was going to cancel NAFTA, build a giant wall on the border with Mexico, and deport all the brown people. It was a bad platform, but it was a platform, and was enough to squeak out a win for a hilariously terrib le candidate.

If the Democrats run a campaign with a clear set of simple, easy to understand promises, they will win the Presidency in 2020. It does not matter who their candidate is.
__________________
Providing useless posts since 1999!

Last edited by RickJay; 10-12-2017 at 08:32 AM.
  #60  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:36 AM
PatriotX PatriotX is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Fayettenam
Posts: 7,203
I think one create should a series of memes which compare Trump favorably to various cartoon and comedic politicians.
Trump: Not nearly as corrupt as Mayor Quimby

Trump has a better grip on reality than Mayor West

Trump: He's much smarter than Governor William J. Lepetomane

Trump: He's not a criminal mastermind like Mayor Cobblepot
It successfully associates Trump with buffoons in a way that's hard to counter.

What can Trumpco et al do?
Argue against the favorable comparisons?
Say they are not true?
__________________
Irrationally Informed
  #61  
Old 10-12-2017, 09:44 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 19,140
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Well, what did Clinton's campaign do wrong?

To my eyes, it had no clearly stated set of campaign promises or messages. I could not faithfully tell you, without looking it up, what the central messages of her platform were. Even then she still got a majority of the votes, they just weren't arranged right.
I agree with all of this. If you want to win, get what you're going to do and make it simple enough to put on a bumper sticker. Maybe Hillary had a 97 point plan to find alternate work for the coal miners, but what they wanted to hear was that their old jobs would come back. Never mind that coal is on the losing side of history as other energy sources simply beat them in the market, making simple but empty promises is the way to win their votes. In 2010 Republican ran on "No death panels, fuck the gays, and we love our guns" and it worked for them. Simple promises work on common voters, the best plan won't win votes if people can't understand them.
  #62  
Old 10-12-2017, 03:16 PM
sleestak sleestak is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sin City
Posts: 3,729
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
This is nothing more than the viewpoint of an entrenched privileged class doing everything it can to ignore bigotry, bias, and discrimination.
No, it is not. And until the Dems understand that they will keep on losing. It shows a narrow, stupid mindset. Here is a hint, it is possible to believe that discrimination is wrong and, at the same time, believe that dividing society up into smaller and smaller categories in an effort to solve discrimination is going to fail, badly. We are balkenizing and that is bad. But call people names if it makes you feel better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
It's exactly was homophobes are doing when they say that gays are asking for "special rights."
No, it is not. But keep it believing that and keep on losing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
What you are saying is "abandon all your principles and any attempt to make our society fairer and more just."
This is why you lose. I am not saying that, unless your principles are 'Treat anyone who disagrees with me in anyway as badly as possible in an effort to win them over to my cause!!!!'. I am saying that being divisive and setting one group or groups of people against others is a stupid thing to do.

Here is a suggestion, Instead of saying something totally divisive like 'This is nothing more than the viewpoint of an entrenched privileged class doing everything it can to ignore bigotry, bias, and discrimination.' try something along the lines of "Hey, do you think X is a problem? How do we solve it?' then listen. It won't work for everyone but it will definitely work on more people than 'You are an evil poopie head if you don't agree with me!'


Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
And what you are specifically asking of someone like me in particular is to just accept that I am a second-class citizen in my own country.
Stop projecting your feelings as my beliefs. You have no idea what I believe, how I act, who my friends are or how I treat others. Here is a clue, I don't give a fuck who you sleep with, I don't care what god you believe in (if you even believe in a god), I don't care what color your skin is, where you were born or what you look like. I do care about how you treat others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
It's true, it isn't lack of education. Its racial resentment and racism, or at best, indifference to racism and a whole lot of other pretty disgusting shit.
Or it could be that the Ds nominated the only person in the fucking country that could lose to Trump. Pretending that Clinton was some sort of innocent angel who lost because everyone is racist may make you feel better, but as a strategy it is rather dumb. It is also, largely, not true. Yes, there are racists. Yes they suck. But most people who voted for Trump aren't racists. Also note, when the Ds pull the you only voted for X because you are in the 'entrenched privileged class doing everything it can to ignore bigotry, bias, and discrimination', it has a high likelihood of backfiring. Don't insult people you want to support your cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
How exactly did the right show they cared about rural areas? Their entire platform for the last 50 years has been some kind of hatred for an other. Whether it's racial or otherwise.
Trump told voters they mattered. Clinton called them deplorable. If you were in the 'deplorable' group, who do you think you would vote for? Note, Trump beat all the Republican candidates. Why do you think that is? It could be that all the R voters are racist, evil people. Or it could be that Trump told them their problems mattered while the rest of the R candidates didn't manage to do that in a way that got through to the voters. I suspect it is because those voters believe they have been screwed by all the politicians, not just the D or R politicians. Trump is a symptom of the problem and the root of the problem is that politicians, on both sides, lost the average voter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Who do you think actually benefits from universal health care, family leave rights, clean air, clean water, and stuff like that?
Those are particular policies and some I agree with, some I don't. I don't believe health care is a right. I also believe that none of the proposals put forward do anything to fix the root cause of the health care problem. I don't believe that family leave is a right either. I am all for clean air and water, though the policy details matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
What? Is this a joke? Trump's election proves that voters don't give a shot about ethics.
The Ds nominated Clinton who had huge negatives and a (perceived*) history of shady shit. Had the Ds nominated anyone other than Clinton, Trump would have lost. Trump is an ass, but he has never really hidden it. Clinton tried to be slick and play word games (which, btw, the Clintons are generally pretty good at) about her past mistakes. The whole server thing was a freaking disaster of her own making and her response was to lie about it. Trump would've probably gone the whole 'Yeah, I did it. What you gonna do about it' route.

Trump was honest about being unethical, if you can dig that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
In any case, no matter what candidate gets chosen, the right's propaganda machine will just invent ethical issue and then you'll be back here saying see? Not ethical enough!
The right may try that. However, if you give the right a target rich environment when they are itching to fire, don't blame me when you get shot to shit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
#5. Consolidate gains made on the social end of things and focus on the economy.

Of course, none of those things is likely to happen. [/quoye] (note, your original post jacked up the quote box)

The previous president presided over the fastest economic recovery in modern history. All in the face of intransigent opposition. For more than two decades, Democratic administrations have proven they are better on economic issues than Republican ones.

If you're talking about reviving dying industries or occupations, no party is actually going to be able to fix that. The left can at at least offer assistance to a way forward where the right only offers false promises.
The economy recovered under Obama. However, the lower end of the scale isn't really seeing much recovery and the polls said that they didn't feel it. What they feel is what matters. Check this and note the date. That is one of the reasons Trump won and Sanders got ass much traction as he did.

Personally I believe both sides suck on economics. The debt is a huge problem that neither side really wants to deal with. The Ds got lucky in the Clinton years with the tech explosion and the Rs getting the Senate and House. Since then the Rs have sucked and the Ds aren't any better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
All of this is just apologetics and goalpost-moving.
No, it is a list of why the Ds lost. Your argument comes down to 'Anyone who didn't vote for Clinton is stoooopid or racist'. Guess what? That isn't going to work. Clinton tried it and lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
This is just intellectual laziness.
No, it is called principles. I voted third party because both major party candidates were ethically unfit for office. At the same time I did not agree with either Clinton or Trump policies on most things. So I voted for the person whose policies I believe are the closest to my ideal.

Slee

*Some factual, some not. However, the Clintons brought a ton of this on themselves.
  #63  
Old 10-12-2017, 04:58 PM
Acsenray Acsenray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 32,821
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleestak View Post
... dividing society up into smaller and smaller categories in an effort to solve discrimination is going to fail, badly. We are balkenizing and that is bad.
The only side that is "balkanizing" society is the right. The left is taking up the course of people who because of X, Y, or Z characteristics are systematically disadvantaged by the system. It's just propaganda to characterize this as "dividing society up into smaller and smaller categories."

Quote:
But keep it believing that and keep on losing.
Giving up the fight for justice is a guaranteed loss. This way there's at least a chance.

The oppressed and disadvantaged are used to facing poor odds. When they win, society becomes better. When they lose, that means we have to work harder.

Quote:
unless your principles are 'Treat anyone who disagrees with me in anyway as badly as possible in an effort to win them over to my cause!!!!'.
This is just part of the "white men are the most discriminated against" bullshit. It's part of the right's Big Lie strategy. Yes, sometimes the Big Lie works. That doesn't make capitulating to it a viable option.

Quote:
I am saying that being divisive and setting one group or groups of people against others is a stupid thing to do.
Yup, Big Lie. Working to help the disadvantaged is being "divisive." Just like standing up for employees and the poor is "Starting a Class War."

Quote:
try something along the lines of "Hey, do you think X is a problem? How do we solve it?' then listen.
Really? This is how we got rid of slavery? This is how we got women's suffrage? This is how we got the Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts? This is how we got legal status for same sex marriage?

Quote:
Stop projecting your feelings as my beliefs. You have no idea what I believe, how I act, who my friends are or how I treat others. Here is a clue, I don't give a fuck who you sleep with, I don't care what god you believe in (if you even believe in a god), I don't care what color your skin is, where you were born or what you look like.
None of this self-serving bullshit matters. I don't care how highly you think of yourself or what a good person you think you are. What matters is what you do and what you say to affect public policy.

Quote:
Or it could be that the Ds nominated the only person in the fucking country that could lose to Trump.
Or it could be that the Republicans finally found a candidate who was willing to tap into the hot river of racial resentment that was seething right underneath the surface.

This is a society that has such a profound history of systemic racism that it's a fantastic feat of self-delusion to pretend that racism is so unlikely that every public discussion must start with a presumption of pure feelings.

Quote:
Pretending that Clinton was some sort of innocent angel
I don't know exactly what this profoundly silly and stupid statement is based on or what it's meant to counter. What it does remind me of is the right jumping to "He was no angel" statements to justify police brutality against minorities.

Quote:
but as a strategy it is rather dumb. It is also, largely, not true. Yes, there are racists. Yes they suck. But most people who voted for Trump aren't racists.
The fuck they aren't. Trump's victory had nothing to do with the economic worries of the working class. It had to do with the pull of Trump's outright racism for affluent whites. It was the economically comfortable who gave Trump his win, so don't try to gaslight us with your talk about economic platforms.

Quote:
and discrimination', it has a high likelihood of backfiring. Don't insult people you want to support your cause.
Yes, massa does get mad when he gets criticized by the help.

Quote:
Trump told voters they mattered.
He told them that he was going to get rid of the people whose skin color, language, and religion they hated.

Quote:
Note, Trump beat all the Republican candidates. Why do you think that is?
They weren't willing to be as blatantly racist as Trump.

Quote:
Or it could be that Trump told them their problems mattered
He told them that he agreed that their problems were caused by the people whose skin color, language, and religion they hated and he was going to allow them to beat them up, deport them, torture them, and kill them.

Quote:
Trump is a symptom of the problem and the root of the problem is that politicians, on both sides, lost the average voter.
Spare me this "average voter" nonsense. More people voted for Clinton than for Trump. That means that the average voter is a Clinton voter. Trump's vote came from people who ate up his racism like candy or those who were indifferent to it.

Quote:
No, it is called principles. I voted third party because both major party candidates were ethically unfit for office. At the same time I did not agree with either Clinton or Trump policies on most things. So I voted for the person whose policies I believe are the closest to my ideal.
There is no such thing as a principled vote in an electoral system like ours. An election is about choosing who is going to govern, not some survey of preferences.

Last edited by Acsenray; 10-12-2017 at 04:59 PM.
  #64  
Old 10-13-2017, 09:03 AM
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Well, what did Clinton's campaign do wrong?

To my eyes, it had no clearly stated set of campaign promises or messages. I could not faithfully tell you, without looking it up, what the central messages of her platform were. Even then she still got a majority of the votes, they just weren't arranged right.

If you want people to vote for you you need to give them a reason to vote for you. "I'm Hillary Clinton" is not a great reason; indeed, the most common reasons I saw repeated for voting Clinton were "she's not Donald Trump," which is compelling to me for isn't a positive reason, and "she's the most qualified candidate to ever run for President," which was untrue, not of interest to anyone, and rather obviously ignores the fact that volume of qualifications have no effect at all on which candidate wins a Presidential race; in fact, the less "qualified" candidate won the previous two battles between candidate who were both not sitting Presidents (Obama-McCain, Bush-Gore.) "I am going to do X, Y and Z" is what gets voters interested.

Trump's platform was REALLY clear. It was stupid, but it was clear; he was going to cancel NAFTA, build a giant wall on the border with Mexico, and deport all the brown people. It was a bad platform, but it was a platform, and was enough to squeak out a win for a hilariously terrib le candidate.

If the Democrats run a campaign with a clear set of simple, easy to understand promises, they will win the Presidency in 2020. It does not matter who their candidate is.
Good analysis.

Clinton never had a theme or a message. What exactly does "I'm with her" mean? I think what she assumed was that Obama's diverse coalition would hold in place because they would see how awful Trump was. Trump won the election despite the fact that Clinton had a wider potential audience. Clinton had the ability to grab more votes, and she actually did that nationally. She could have gotten even more votes than she did. But Trump won because the voters he was speaking to were motivated to vote like they haven't been in years. Clinton assumed that once the race got to the general, that it would be different. Most of us did, too. But Trump found a way to inspire voters.

It's going to be more of a challenge for Trump to convince the moderate conservatives who held their nose to vote for him to do it a second time. But that doesn't mean he can't win. The Democratic party still has to get out of its own way, and more importantly, they really need to start getting some victories at the local level. They need to figure out how moderates and hard leftists can compromise and maybe find some common goals.

But right now, Trump hasn't really caused any damage yet. The economy is still fine. We haven't had any disastrous wars yet. He's scaring people, but he hasn't broken anything in the China shop -- at least not yet. I suspect that might change once there's a recession and once the consequences of some of his decisions like killing ACA start to become more visible.
  #65  
Old 10-13-2017, 11:56 PM
octopus octopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 5,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
How about; promise to be more extreme. Trump wants to deport illegals and build a wall, you will flog all illegals before deporting them and will drop an H-Bomb on Mexico City.
That's a misread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acsenray View Post
Someone who voted for Trump has forfeited any benefit of the doubt.
That's pure nonsense. But keep believing and propagating that thought all you wish. It won't advance your cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by epolo View Post
What appeals to Trump voters? Hmm...

Plan 1

“Trump talked about gunning someone down on Fifth Avenue, but I’m the only candidate with the courage to actually do it!”

Plan 2

“Why won’t my opponent allow me to peel the skin from his face on national TV? What’s he hiding under there? Is he maybe ... a lizard person?!”

Plan 3

“Forget all this campaigning, debating and voting. Let’s settle this the way everyone wants to see it settled: in the ring! Available on PPV.”

Plan 4

“Let’s talk agricultural policy. I propose Brawndo for crops; it’s got what plants crave.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
If you don't understand why people are worried about globalism and the perception if not the reality that the Democrats are stupidly open border then you won't be able to figure out how to counter a populist message. A message that was predicted years ago to have appeal and resonance with a large subset of the populace as global trade increased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
Well, what did Clinton's campaign do wrong?

To my eyes, it had no clearly stated set of campaign promises or messages. I could not faithfully tell you, without looking it up, what the central messages of her platform were. Even then she still got a majority of the votes, they just weren't arranged right.

If you want people to vote for you you need to give them a reason to vote for you. "I'm Hillary Clinton" is not a great reason; indeed, the most common reasons I saw repeated for voting Clinton were "she's not Donald Trump," which is compelling to me for isn't a positive reason, and "she's the most qualified candidate to ever run for President," which was untrue, not of interest to anyone, and rather obviously ignores the fact that volume of qualifications have no effect at all on which candidate wins a Presidential race; in fact, the less "qualified" candidate won the previous two battles between candidate who were both not sitting Presidents (Obama-McCain, Bush-Gore.) "I am going to do X, Y and Z" is what gets voters interested.

Trump's platform was REALLY clear. It was stupid, but it was clear; he was going to cancel NAFTA, build a giant wall on the border with Mexico, and deport all the brown people. It was a bad platform, but it was a platform, and was enough to squeak out a win for a hilariously terrib le candidate.

If the Democrats run a campaign with a clear set of simple, easy to understand promises, they will win the Presidency in 2020. It does not matter who their candidate is.
Did Trump ever say he wanted to deport all brown people? That's where the problem in politics is. I'm not saying both sides don't do it because they do. But if you don't want hyper exaggerated claims being part of politics it helps to not promote them yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
There is no cure for The Cult of Donald. His supporters either live in an alternate reality or simply don't care about facts. They get all their news from Hate Radio and right wing Facebook memes. They are beyond redemption. Thankfully, each of them has a limited life span. The problem isn't Donald- it's that 60 million people ignored what he is and voted for him anyway.
Politics is not quite that simple.

Look, if you really think about what people are you'd be able to figure out what motivates them. And what motivates people is very rarely a single variable. But here's a secret to a variable that people really dislike and does motivate them. Obvious contempt. When people perceive that they are held in contempt and are despised they act spiteful.

If Democrats want to smash the Republicans they can start by advocating following existing immigration law and figuring out a way to sell global trade and automation to the masses. Might want to start with a Basic Income.
  #66  
Old 10-14-2017, 12:03 PM
Translucent Daydream Translucent Daydream is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tualatin Valley
Posts: 1,565
There is a line in the movie “As good as it gets” where Jack Nicholson screams at Greg Kinner “I’m drowning here and all you’re doing is describing the water”

That’s kind of what me, the average voter, feels like when I read these threads about “how to beat/stop/win against Trump/GOP.”

You know what nobody talks about? Housing prices. That affects EVERYONE I know, no matter the color or creed. Unless you were lucky enough to own before the meltdown, we are all stranded here with the same damn problem. My parents are looking for another place to live they can afford while my dad works his final years away.

For my family, as soon as we get a handle on paying the “new high rent”, we lose our place to another rent hike and have to spend all of our savings securing another place to live. The last move was almost down to the last hour we had to move. I spent 4 months and all of our life savings looking for the next place to live. I tried everything, and ended up bidding on another rental where I was one of 96 applicants and had to pay all of our 7600 savings prepaying rent at 1700 a month to be able to secure this current rental. I now have to remodel this house to be able to keep the landlord at bay long enough to maybe make some of our savings back for the next time our landlord decides to “sell the house and be done with renting.”

The savings were earmarked for our dream of owning our own place so we wouldn’t have to be shuffled around like trash at the whims of some property owner. The last place we rented took over 42,000 in rent from us to pay off the mortgage on that house so these people could sell it and roll the money tax free into “another investment”. If I was able to keep renting the last place for another 8 months, we would have saved enough to be able to buy our own place. Now we are five years behind in saving up for that again. Will we be able to rent that long? Probably not, by that point this house will be done with my required remodel and will be worth more to he landlord in a sale than just letting me rent it. The cycle continues.

Not one of the candidates in 2016 said shit about what we are going through. This is the central problem that touches on all of my family, all of my friends, scattered across the 17 different states we live in.

I can’t even get to the point where our application to adopt American children gets all the boxes checked. Homeowner? No check there. They know like all of us, that the average joe owning a house is the biggest thing someone can do to protect their economic future.

Maybe I’m missing something, and I am probably the dumbest poster in this thread. It just seems like everyone I know has been treading this water so god damn long we are too tired to understand everything else.
__________________
I promise it’s not as bad or as good as you think it is.
  #67  
Old 10-14-2017, 02:13 PM
octopus octopus is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 5,428
You can get a decent house in a lot of the country for $1700/month.
  #68  
Old 10-14-2017, 03:59 PM
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
There is a line in the movie “As good as it gets” where Jack Nicholson screams at Greg Kinner “I’m drowning here and all you’re doing is describing the water”

That’s kind of what me, the average voter, feels like when I read these threads about “how to beat/stop/win against Trump/GOP.”

You know what nobody talks about? Housing prices. That affects EVERYONE I know, no matter the color or creed. Unless you were lucky enough to own before the meltdown, we are all stranded here with the same damn problem. My parents are looking for another place to live they can afford while my dad works his final years away.

For my family, as soon as we get a handle on paying the “new high rent”, we lose our place to another rent hike and have to spend all of our savings securing another place to live. The last move was almost down to the last hour we had to move. I spent 4 months and all of our life savings looking for the next place to live. I tried everything, and ended up bidding on another rental where I was one of 96 applicants and had to pay all of our 7600 savings prepaying rent at 1700 a month to be able to secure this current rental. I now have to remodel this house to be able to keep the landlord at bay long enough to maybe make some of our savings back for the next time our landlord decides to “sell the house and be done with renting.”

The savings were earmarked for our dream of owning our own place so we wouldn’t have to be shuffled around like trash at the whims of some property owner. The last place we rented took over 42,000 in rent from us to pay off the mortgage on that house so these people could sell it and roll the money tax free into “another investment”. If I was able to keep renting the last place for another 8 months, we would have saved enough to be able to buy our own place. Now we are five years behind in saving up for that again. Will we be able to rent that long? Probably not, by that point this house will be done with my required remodel and will be worth more to he landlord in a sale than just letting me rent it. The cycle continues.

Not one of the candidates in 2016 said shit about what we are going through. This is the central problem that touches on all of my family, all of my friends, scattered across the 17 different states we live in.

I can’t even get to the point where our application to adopt American children gets all the boxes checked. Homeowner? No check there. They know like all of us, that the average joe owning a house is the biggest thing someone can do to protect their economic future.

Maybe I’m missing something, and I am probably the dumbest poster in this thread. It just seems like everyone I know has been treading this water so god damn long we are too tired to understand everything else.
QFT - nice post.
  #69  
Old 10-14-2017, 11:32 PM
Moriarty Moriarty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 2,177
How do you campaign against Trump? Focus on his record.

In 2020, Trump will own the destabilized healthcare markets and the rising premiums. He will own the recession all these natural disasters will trigger. He will own the lack of legislative accomplishments. He will own the humanitarian disaster in Puerto Rico. God forbid, he will own the Korean war.

Trump 2016 had no political history. He could - and did - promise people whatever they wanted. But he's a disaster at governing. So running against Trump is about pointing out everything he failed to deliver and offering to rescue the people from the turmoil he's created.
  #70  
Old 10-16-2017, 09:14 PM
epolo epolo is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 313
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
How do you campaign against Trump? Focus on his record.



In 2020, Trump will own the destabilized healthcare markets and the rising premiums. He will own the recession all these natural disasters will trigger. He will own the lack of legislative accomplishments. He will own the humanitarian disaster in Puerto Rico. God forbid, he will own the Korean war.



Trump 2016 had no political history. He could - and did - promise people whatever they wanted. But he's a disaster at governing. So running against Trump is about pointing out everything he failed to deliver and offering to rescue the people from the turmoil he's created.


Ha! You think Trump will own any of that?
All those will be the fault of the (Muslims/blacks/Jews/Mexicans/bicycle riders) - take your pick. And the people who thought that all their complex problems with (inequality/healthcare/employment) - take your pick - could be solved by a reality tv star (in no more than 43 minutes to leave time for commercials) will believe it. That’s when the shit really hits the fan.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
Morpheme Addict
  #71  
Old 10-16-2017, 09:34 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
There is no cure for The Cult of Donald. His supporters either live in an alternate reality or simply don't care about facts. They get all their news from Hate Radio and right wing Facebook memes. They are beyond redemption. Thankfully, each of them has a limited life span. The problem isn't Donald- it's that 60 million people ignored what he is and voted for him anyway.
It's pure folly to think this problem is going to die off with the older demographic. The problem is that it wasn't old people who ginned up this shitstorm out of 4-chan. It wasn't old people waving torches and swastikas in Chancellorsville. It was disaffected young/midaged white men with shitty social prospects. Just like Islamic terrorists, when you attack or insult one, you validate the persecution complex and create a hundred more of these propaganda terrorists.

I don't know the solution, but it ain't assuming that the demographics will just quietly play out.
  #72  
Old 10-16-2017, 09:37 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
How do you campaign against Trump? Focus on his record.

In 2020, Trump will own the destabilized healthcare markets and the rising premiums.
Delusional. Absolutely delusional. His base have perfected the mental aikido of redirecting the blame to Obama, or Hillary, or someone else. As long as Obama ever golfed once during his presidency, Trump is incapable of doing wrong. We're facing weapons-grade levels of reality deniers. That's why their king is in the White House. I'm not sure how we get to a healthy debate of ideas among a segment of the populace that has ceased caring about what is real and what isn't.
  #73  
Old 10-17-2017, 10:16 AM
BobLibDem BobLibDem is online now
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Home 07 NCAA HockeyChamps
Posts: 19,140
Donald gave us the campaign ads yesterday. Remember there is one thing that all right wing voters agree on: the military deserves endless praise and that war dead are the most sacred of cows. Here you've got 4 dead guys for almost two weeks before El Douche even acknowledges their deaths, then he goes on to say how the letters have been written, maybe they'll go out that night (translation, he hasn't lifted a finger yet). Then he goes on to make it all about him, how it's so hard for him to make these calls. (So how many times before these last 4 guys?). You know what dumbass- it's 1000x harder for the loved ones of the deceased. Dickhead. As if that wasn't enough, he goes on to lie about Obama and Bush not calling the families. Again, both of those guys made damn sure to contact each and every one and Obama (unlike Bush) even went to Dover to meet the incoming dead.

Dumb Donald thought he could demean Gold Star parents with impunity. But that only worked in the past with his base because said parents were Muslim. Now he just shat in the face of four families grieving the loss of their sons, and this dicklicker thinks it's all about him.
  #74  
Old 10-17-2017, 05:01 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobLibDem View Post
Donald gave us the campaign ads yesterday.
In a normal world, you'd be right, and I wish you were. In the real world, this will be forgotten before next week. We've already tried "Trump is a huge obvious liar who insults military families" and it didn't work.

Really the only thing I can see helping is for the Democrats to forget about all the lofty social justice stuff. That's a luxury that only a party in power can afford. Find out what's pissing people off, find any underhanded way to blame it on the party in power, and make a bunch of bullshit promises about how you're going to fix it. Trump spun gold out of that. So did Sanders, if we're being totally honest.
  #75  
Old 10-18-2017, 03:01 PM
Moriarty Moriarty is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 2,177
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
Delusional. Absolutely delusional. His base have perfected the mental aikido of redirecting the blame to Obama, or Hillary, or someone else. As long as Obama ever golfed once during his presidency, Trump is incapable of doing wrong. We're facing weapons-grade levels of reality deniers. That's why their king is in the White House. I'm not sure how we get to a healthy debate of ideas among a segment of the populace that has ceased caring about what is real and what isn't.
Trump's base is only about a third of the electorate. The rest of his voters, in my opinion, were people who wanted change and were willing to accept that this maverick with the big promises might be able to pull it off.

By 2020, though, these middle-of-the-roaders, who likely have no broad perspective on politics other than how their own life is doing, will see costs like their premiums going up. And Trump is going to deflect that by pointing at a guy who hasn't been Presidenting on the TV for 4 years?! Their reality is that it costs more and more to live, and the guy they voted for last time, who had all the big ideas, didn't make their life appreciably better.

It's like the old Reagan question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?" For lots and lots of people who might have previously given Trump a chance, the answer will likely be no.
  #76  
Old 10-18-2017, 03:30 PM
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
Trump's base is only about a third of the electorate. The rest of his voters, in my opinion, were people who wanted change and were willing to accept that this maverick with the big promises might be able to pull it off.

By 2020, though, these middle-of-the-roaders, who likely have no broad perspective on politics other than how their own life is doing, will see costs like their premiums going up. And Trump is going to deflect that by pointing at a guy who hasn't been Presidenting on the TV for 4 years?! Their reality is that it costs more and more to live, and the guy they voted for last time, who had all the big ideas, didn't make their life appreciably better.

It's like the old Reagan question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?" For lots and lots of people who might have previously given Trump a chance, the answer will likely be no.
I have to agree with Irruncible: these are not normal times. I'm not saying that Donald and the GOP can't lose, but the dynamics of politics have changed. If the left and moderates were united in their opposition against Trump and the radical right wing, that would be one thing. But I have yet to see evidence that there is a united front against the politics of Trumpism. And say whatever you want about it, but Trump's supporters are highly motivated and they will band together. If the political left again decides to fight over Bernie Sanders' place in the Democratic party, we're going to have a huge problem on our hands. Yes, Trump's supporters are a clear minority, but they can win a plurality. And it only takes a plurality of voters to cause more problems. These people are not interested in winning fairly or democratically; they just want to win, period.
  #77  
Old 10-18-2017, 05:21 PM
HMS Irruncible HMS Irruncible is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moriarty View Post
It's like the old Reagan question, "Are you better off than you were four years ago?" For lots and lots of people who might have previously given Trump a chance, the answer will likely be no.
We now have a new question on the table, which is "Are you better off than you were four years ago, and how much do you blame Obama for the state of the nation in 2020?" I honestly think that's what we're up against. But I hope not.
  #78  
Old 10-18-2017, 09:27 PM
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,958
Quote:
Originally Posted by HMS Irruncible View Post
We now have a new question on the table, which is "Are you better off than you were four years ago, and how much do you blame Obama for the state of the nation in 2020?" I honestly think that's what we're up against. But I hope not.
Maybe not so much blaming Obama as much as "Wouldn't it be great if you as a white man could have a special place in this society at the front of the line and not have to compete with others for your place in the hierarchy?" If you want to understand what a culture is capable of...just study it's past. It will tell you a lot. Ours certainly does.
  #79  
Old 10-18-2017, 09:37 PM
AI Proofreader AI Proofreader is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buck Godot View Post
As to strategy, I agree with naita, that the Dems should concentrate on his unfulfilled promises. Transform him from the game changer who is going to Make (white) America Great Again, to just another untrustworthy politician who only pays lip service to caring about Middle America.
I agree as well. The ideal 2020 ad would probably just involve running clips of Trump the candidate on an issue, immediately followed by a completely contradictory statement from Trump the President about the same subject and/or a list of actions taken that were exactly the opposite.

The hard part would be picking *which of his positions are the most loathsome. Trump changes positions on an issue often several times *in the same speech. It's not just that he's an unprincipled opportunist and a hypocrite - I think he literally can't keep up with all his lies and equivocating on every issue and forgets what stance he's taking this week.

Last edited by AI Proofreader; 10-18-2017 at 09:37 PM.
  #80  
Old 10-18-2017, 10:41 PM
AI Proofreader AI Proofreader is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Denver, CO, USA
Posts: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJay View Post
To my eyes, it had no clearly stated set of campaign promises or messages. I could not faithfully tell you, without looking it up, what the central messages of her platform were.
It's not just you. Analyses of her campaign ads showed she mentioned specific policy only 25% of the time. "I'm With Her" and "Stronger Together" became the punchline of many jokes among progressives who ended up voting for Jill Stein or not voting at all.

Quote:
If the Democrats run a campaign with a clear set of simple, easy to understand promises, they will win the Presidency in 2020. It does not matter who their candidate is.
Definitely. Democrats keep trying to appeal to everyone. "For every Democratic voter we lose, we'll pick up two moderate Republicans in the suburbs."

...no. Just no. When you try to appeal to both liberal and conservative voters, your message gets so watered down and muddled that you end up saying *nothing and people just vote for the guy who actually presents some ideas. If there's one thing everyone agrees on with the consistent 17%~ approval rating for Congress, it's that the status quo sucks. DO something.
  #81  
Old 10-19-2017, 07:46 AM
asahi asahi is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 3,958
Well this caught my attention

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017...l-tied-up.html

Alabama race is pretty close. I still think Moore takes it and would be stunned if he didn't. I don't think Doug Jones can pull off what Jon Bel Edwards did in Louisiana for two reasons: 1) the tradition of voting for Democrats is probably stronger in Louisiana, and 2) Jindal, a Republican, wrecked Louisiana's budget. I'm not aware of that happening in Bama. The Dems need to find a way to convince Nick Saban to run instead.
  #82  
Old 10-19-2017, 01:47 PM
Wesley Clark Wesley Clark is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,895
Quote:
Originally Posted by Translucent Daydream View Post
There is a line in the movie “As good as it gets” where Jack Nicholson screams at Greg Kinner “I’m drowning here and all you’re doing is describing the water”

That’s kind of what me, the average voter, feels like when I read these threads about “how to beat/stop/win against Trump/GOP.”

You know what nobody talks about? Housing prices. That affects EVERYONE I know, no matter the color or creed. Unless you were lucky enough to own before the meltdown, we are all stranded here with the same damn problem. My parents are looking for another place to live they can afford while my dad works his final years away.

For my family, as soon as we get a handle on paying the “new high rent”, we lose our place to another rent hike and have to spend all of our savings securing another place to live. The last move was almost down to the last hour we had to move. I spent 4 months and all of our life savings looking for the next place to live. I tried everything, and ended up bidding on another rental where I was one of 96 applicants and had to pay all of our 7600 savings prepaying rent at 1700 a month to be able to secure this current rental. I now have to remodel this house to be able to keep the landlord at bay long enough to maybe make some of our savings back for the next time our landlord decides to “sell the house and be done with renting.”

The savings were earmarked for our dream of owning our own place so we wouldn’t have to be shuffled around like trash at the whims of some property owner. The last place we rented took over 42,000 in rent from us to pay off the mortgage on that house so these people could sell it and roll the money tax free into “another investment”. If I was able to keep renting the last place for another 8 months, we would have saved enough to be able to buy our own place. Now we are five years behind in saving up for that again. Will we be able to rent that long? Probably not, by that point this house will be done with my required remodel and will be worth more to he landlord in a sale than just letting me rent it. The cycle continues.

Not one of the candidates in 2016 said shit about what we are going through. This is the central problem that touches on all of my family, all of my friends, scattered across the 17 different states we live in.

I can’t even get to the point where our application to adopt American children gets all the boxes checked. Homeowner? No check there. They know like all of us, that the average joe owning a house is the biggest thing someone can do to protect their economic future.

Maybe I’m missing something, and I am probably the dumbest poster in this thread. It just seems like everyone I know has been treading this water so god damn long we are too tired to understand everything else.
While I empathize with your problem, I really don't think national politicians can solve it.

From what I know of Portland housing and rent price increases (which are among the biggest increases in the US recently) the issue is people from the bay area are moving to Portland, driving up prices for various reasons (higher wages among the northern California immigrants, people from there are used to paying more for housing, etc).

The bay area has a shortage of housing because of city government policies restricting the building of homes and apartments.

So the cause of your problem is likely found and solved on the city level. I don't think a national president could make a difference.

The reason I bring that up is also because Trump promised the moon to a lot of people. He promised to bring back coal jobs. You can't bring coal jobs back, because natural gas and renewables are cheaper. You can't bring manufacturing jobs back because outsourcing and automation is cheaper.

Presidents promising the moon for issues that have market economic causes, or are caused By policies on the city or state level (like your housing crisis in Portland which is largely caused by city policies in San Francisco) are just making empty promises.

I have heard due to a lack of investment opportunities, lots of global investors are buying up real estate to rent it. This would cause issues for homeowners, but locally I haven't been affected by this.
__________________
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to sparkle motion

Last edited by Wesley Clark; 10-19-2017 at 01:51 PM.
  #83  
Old 10-21-2017, 10:22 AM
Translucent Daydream Translucent Daydream is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tualatin Valley
Posts: 1,565
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley Clark View Post
While I empathize with your problem, I really don't think national politicians can solve it.

From what I know of Portland housing and rent price increases (which are among the biggest increases in the US recently) the issue is people from the bay area are moving to Portland, driving up prices for various reasons (higher wages among the northern California immigrants, people from there are used to paying more for housing, etc).

The bay area has a shortage of housing because of city government policies restricting the building of homes and apartments.

So the cause of your problem is likely found and solved on the city level. I don't think a national president could make a difference.

The reason I bring that up is also because Trump promised the moon to a lot of people. He promised to bring back coal jobs. You can't bring coal jobs back, because natural gas and renewables are cheaper. You can't bring manufacturing jobs back because outsourcing and automation is cheaper.

Presidents promising the moon for issues that have market economic causes, or are caused By policies on the city or state level (like your housing crisis in Portland which is largely caused by city policies in San Francisco) are just making empty promises.

I have heard due to a lack of investment opportunities, lots of global investors are buying up real estate to rent it. This would cause issues for homeowners, but locally I haven't been affected by this.
I can totally see this but I wonder why it’s affecting so many markets at once. These are the moves that we have done so far to escape the rent and follow work:

Dallas, TX
Houston, TX
Raton, NM
Centennial, CO
Cheyenne, WY
Portland, OR
Beaverton, OR
Salem, OR

We just got this place paid for and the roof went in the latest storm, so we just lost this place too as we are getting our lease canceled on us so they can knock down the house. I know after I take the landlord to court, I’ll get back most of my 7000 bucks but it’s going to take maxing out my last credit card on a lawyer.

I know Oregon has a California problem, but I don’t know what Texas has, my father and mom have been pushed out so far he is now commuting 2 hours and 15 minutes to his job each way and they are getting pushed further. Same thing with my brother and family in Georgia and Tennessee. My cousin in Charlotte just lost his house and is in a shelter somewhere there.

This is why people don’t show up to vote.

Ending hijack
__________________
I promise it’s not as bad or as good as you think it is.
  #84  
Old 10-21-2017, 10:25 AM
Translucent Daydream Translucent Daydream is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Tualatin Valley
Posts: 1,565
How I would campaign against Trump is have some well respected Patton type general that has a lot of sway with vets and have him do the television spots about how shitty and dangerous he is, and how he is putting servicemen and women’s lives in danger because he is a ubertard, blah blah blah. Most of the vets I know are strongly GOP although the GOP are largely responsible for the sequester that has decimated veterans funding.
__________________
I promise it’s not as bad or as good as you think it is.
  #85  
Old Yesterday, 02:55 PM
Hector_St_Clare Hector_St_Clare is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 3,392
Quote:
Originally Posted by AK84 View Post
How about; promise to be more extreme. Trump wants to deport illegals and build a wall, you will flog all illegals before deporting them and will drop an H-Bomb on Mexico City.
I think AK84 sums it up quite well here.

Last edited by Hector_St_Clare; Yesterday at 02:55 PM.
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:09 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

Send questions for Cecil Adams to: cecil@chicagoreader.com

Send comments about this website to: webmaster@straightdope.com

Terms of Use / Privacy Policy

Advertise on the Straight Dope!
(Your direct line to thousands of the smartest, hippest people on the planet, plus a few total dipsticks.)

Publishers - interested in subscribing to the Straight Dope?
Write to: sdsubscriptions@chicagoreader.com.

Copyright © 2017 Sun-Times Media, LLC.

 
Copyright © 2017